[Closed] Toyota in epic media FAIL this morning

That was Miguel Fonseca, MD of Toyota GB. Previously CEO of Toyota ESP.

they do seem to have a bit of a problem with pr.

the first person they lined up to talk to the 'western' media about this conducted the whole thing in a surgical mask (which I know is polite in Japan if you have a cold but doesn't really sit well over here).

Can it be much worse than how they've handled the runaway problem in the US?

They need to change that old window sticker...

"make sure the car behind isn't a Toyota!"

linky??

[img] [/img]

😆

Fair play that they have sent the top man rather than a cardboard cutout to look smooth on camera. It's backfired; but maybe he'd have been better on Sky news if he started booing at the end.

This is another media driven fiasco. The snow has gone. No new Haitians have been pulled from the rubble. They need a new axe to grind and as this is something they have no understanding of they blow it up out of all proportion. The most dangerous factor in a Toyota, or any car for that matter, is the idiot behind the wheel.

I caught Fonseca on the Today programme before I left the house. He didn't do much of a better job there, though i agree it's an admirable thing to do to send out the top man.

The most dangerous factor in a Toyota, or any car for that matter, is the idiot behind the wheel.

BTW, my brother in law has a brand new Toyota FacelessNamelessBoringCar and has had the sticking accelerator issue twice. But he hadn't bothered taking it to the garage to have it looked at! So yes, idiots behind the wheel really are a factor 😯

Yet more over-hyped media nonsense. Nothing better to do than spend their time blowing things out of proportion.

The sticking accelerator is unfortunate and it could easily have happened to any manufacturer. (Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).

I think Toyota have handled it fairly well.. compare with Ford in the 70s..

There was a similar media scare in the 70s about Audis in the US, turned out the problem was simply the brake and accelerator pedals were closer together than on most US made automatics, and fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals when trying to do emergency stops.

It's just the media hyping things out of all proportion yet again.

The sticking accelerator is unfortunate and it could easily have happened to any manufacturer. (Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).

I'm a little confused by this cutting the engine with brakes applied situation. Are we talking autos here, or keyless cars only? I know for certain that at least the 5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility.

(Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).

It's a bugger if you're trying to left-foot brake or heel-toe though.

Interfering Health & safety. Let drivers control cars.

and fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals

My Toyota's fine. I had it tuned by Kaesae.

My Toyota's fine. I had it tuned by Kaesae.

Is that a joke? A statement?

[edit] Ahhh, read a bit further into that one, funny 🙂

Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.

These idiots get all they desrve

Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.

Me, two of them why, what's your problem with toyotas?

bit off topic, and not a personal sleight, but whats all this 'epic fail' malarkey?
Aren't we all middle aged on here?

fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals when trying to do emergency stops.

I think you'll find when you get fat your feet don't get all that much bigger...

As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe. At least one family would still be alive if their car had this.

CK - I seem to recall a thread here a while ago with people complaining they coulnd't left foot brake in their new cars. It's quite widespread I believe. Certainly Passats do it.

Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.

Toyota motor company pioneered quality and production methodologies, which have been adopted by millions of companies in many differing industries worldwide. It is therefore interesting to see how they are reacting to the current problems.

Their production and quality methodologies mean that problems such as this should be "designed out" of the production process, perhaps indicating systemic issues at the manufacturing plants. Their reputation (in my eyes certainly) will live or die based on how they handle this situation, they have more to lose than just the reputation of their cars.

As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe.

In full agreement here tho'

Out of proportion? it's been confirmed as happening to 20 cars in the UK and they are recalling 180,000 cars.

That's not blown out of proportion at all is it? 🙄
It must be a slow news week!

5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility.

Both our Passat (PD) and Golf (newer Tdi) cut the revs if you heel-toe or pull on the handbrake

I've assumed this is the ESP taking over, haven't tried with switching it off.

it's been confirmed as happening to 20 cars in the UK

I know this is purely anecdotal, but my friend has a Toyota and pointed out that the throttle seemed to work by itself before this became news.

The issue may or may not be common, dangerous etc etc. but the guy clearly hadn't had any media training. Before Toyota sent him like a lamb to the slaughter, he should have been better briefed, or they should have sent somebody else. Knowing that the media love to sensationalise everything (which BTW they did this morning) and twist his words, he was simply the wrong man for the job. Clearly English is not his first language and the subtle phrasing required was beyond his ability. Not a criticism of him, as I could not have done any better on a Spanish or Japanese early morning breakfast show in explaining what is quite a complex problem, but he didn't reassure when reassurance was all that was required. I guess nobody at Toyota had the balls to stand up to the 'Top Man' who in true Japanese style decided to fall on his own sword. I can't see it having done his career much good!

The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off. This lets the ecu know the throttle is closed and cuts the fuel intil a predetermined engine speed is reached(usually just above idle). This is to aid fuel useage on over run. In this case the ecu would still think the car needed fuel even if the brakes were applied as the pedal was stuck open.

Interfering Health & safety. Let drivers control cars.

You must have missed the bit about almost all drivers being idiots.

I know this is purely anecdotal, but my friend has a Toyota and pointed out that the throttle seemed to work by itself before this became news.

You must have missed the bit about almost all drivers being idiots.

Only time it's going to happen is accidentally in an emergency stop/big footed oaf situation or some nobber kidding on he's colin mcrae, designing that "feature" out sounds a good idea to me.

So doing a nice, smooth down-shift or gaining a bit of traction in poor conditions is only for "nobbers"?

Remember all the people crashing and failing to cope with the snow about 2 weeks ago? Were they not the real "nobbers"?

I had a Scimitar automatic and you could sit at the lights with the brakes on and if you balanced it right you could get the wheels to spin without moving forward.

I think that feature is worth keeping.

The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off.

Knottie, it still cuts throttle even when I have my foot ON the throttle and press the brake at the same time - left foot braking. None of us on here are daft enough not to realise that in order to right-foot brake you have to lift your foot off the accelerator!

So doing a nice, smooth down-shift or gaining a bit of traction in poor conditions is only for "nobbers"?

When is heel-toe required for smooth downshifts? When your synchromesh is knackered I think. I can do this, and have done in cars with knackered gearboxes, but I've certainly never needed to do it otherwise. And I drive very smoothly!

As for snow - I had not a single incident in the snow despite not heel-toe or left foot braking once. Not even sure when you'd need to tbh. And I live at the bottom of a steep un-gritted hill.

"I'm a little confused by this cutting the engine with brakes applied situation. Are we talking autos here, or keyless cars only? I know for certain that at least the 5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility."

My wife's manual 1.4 diesel Polo does it, well it doesnt kill the engine, but it certainly kills all the power output from the engine. Makes an very dull car even more dull to drive 🙁

As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe. At least one family would still be alive if their car had this.

It's not a racing car technique, its just a technique that's very handy and promotes smooth driving and better downshifts. Assuming everyone who does it is a nob driving like an idiot on the roads, just because you don't feel the need to do so, is completely rediculous and myopic. I know people from young idiots to 60 year old women (She's not 60 anymore, but she was when I met her and she was driving!) who learned to drive during the war that do it, so such statements are purely idle thought. At the end of the day it's the lack of ignition switch killing the car that killed the family, not removing the ability to heel-toe or brake while pressing the gas. As far as I'm concerned removing the key/mechanical kill is simply a lazy-person-friendly feature and should be the subject of anger, not the fact tht they chose to leave the accel and brake mutually exclusive.

It's not a racing car technique, its just a technique that's very handy and promotes smooth driving and better downshifts

I whole heartedly disagree. It's not in any way necessary driving normally about in a modern car, and I invite you to prove that it is.

60 year old women who learned to drive during the war that do it

Yeah, in cars without synchromesh. Which haven't been made for decades.

And I didn't brand anyone a knob, I just said that it's a technique that's not needed on normal roads (EVER) so removing it in favour of another fail-safe is a good idea.

At the end of the day it's the lack of ignition switch killing the car that killed the family, not removing the ability to heel-toe or brake while pressing the gas

This would have saved their lives, no? So it's a bad thing why? I kind of agree about the ignition switch too - buttons are a pointless gimmick. But giving more ways to control an out of control car is a good thing - a panicked driver might only have time to think of one.

Cutting power when I applied the brakes would really annoy me and would be a reason fro me not to buy a car.

Apart from the fact it's nice to do a bit of heel and toe when diving enthusiastically on a nice clear country road, It's also a technique I have to use fairly regularly when manoeuvring:
My house is at the end of a dead end road that is quite steep. I have to turn my car somewhere in it to get out. If it's slippery (snow etc.) then often the handbrake is insufficient to hold the car since it only acts on 2 wheels, so I have to you use the foot brake to hold the car while also using the clutch and accelerator to start moving in the opposite direction.
I'd have to use the wall to hold the car if I couldn't do this 😕

Are Toyota paying for advertising on [i]every[/i] forum? Or jut ones where the posters are taking an inordinate amount of interest in things that don't really effect them? er... 😉

then often the handbrake is insufficient to hold the car since it only acts on 2 wheels

thanks, I was wondering why anyone would want throttle & brake pressed at once...

OK glenH might have a point there, but what's this

smooth driving and better downshifts

Are Toyota paying for advertising on every forum? Or jut ones where the posters are taking an inordinate amount of interest in things that don't really effect them?

You know what the meerkat would say...

I whole heartedly disagree. It's not in any way necessary driving normally about in a modern car, and I invite you to prove that it is.

I never said it was necessary. I said it promotes smoother driving/shifting and weight shifts etc, which is what it is used for in the racing context. Whether that's needed or not is a different argument.

Yeah, in cars without synchromesh. Which haven't been made for decades.

What's your point? There are still people who drive like that, people who are happy with that technique and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

And I didn't brand anyone a knob, I just said that it's a technique that's not needed on normal roads (EVER) so removing it in favour of another fail-safe is a good idea.

It's what you were implying and someone else later picked up on though, no-one said it was needed. There's no need to ADD IN an extra failsafe that doesnt exist on many cars if you DONT remove the original failsafe (the ignition key).

This would have saved their lives, no? So it's a bad thing why? I kind of agree about the ignition switch too - buttons are a pointless gimmick. But giving more ways to control an out of control car is a good thing - a panicked driver might only have time to think of one.

Possibly, yes, but there's no need for it if you hadn't removed the key in the first place, and that would allow people to continue to drive with whichever technique they like AND remain safe with a full-power-cut option.

thanks, I was wondering why anyone would want throttle & brake pressed at once...

I can list a few reasons, but read up on the technique to get the majority of them.

"The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off.

Knottie, it still cuts throttle even when I have my foot ON the throttle and press the brake at the same time - left foot braking. None of us on here are daft enough not to realise that in order to right-foot brake you have to lift your foot off the accelerator! "

the word usually !! It differs on different makes so it may well on your car.

Whether that's needed or not is a different argument.

That's the argument we are having.. or at least I am 🙂

There are still people who drive like that, people who are happy with that technique and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

There is if you are missing the opportunity to add a safety feature to support it, when it's not needed.

Possibly, yes, but there's no need for it if you hadn't removed the key in the first place,

There is - two failsafes are better than one. In fact, the brake failsafe is the better option, since most people's first automatic instinct is to hit the brakes when they are going to fast. If this was guaranteed to slow the car then all further problems are solved. No knocking into neutral, or reaching for the key needed at all. Plus automatically throttling back a) preserves the inlet manifold pressure for the brake servo and b) allows the power steering/abs/esp etc to continue working, whereas killing the engine would do neither of these things.

It's the best failsafe, no arguments. You just like left foot braking, fine, you can have a switch to disable that option. But for 90% of us non-racer numpties out here, the more safety options the better, and we don't care about left foot braking.

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation (like I did last week when I drove into the back of a Landy 110 🙁 )

where do you need brake+go pedal together

Off the top of my head, on the approach to a sharp corner/junction, with a close-following car behind you, downhill, particularly in a rear-wheel drive car. Or, just for the hell of it, if you enjoy driving. Oh yes.

I used to heel-and-toe in my old Porsche all the time. Don't see how it's an issue in a Toyota though; the pedal layout in my wife's Rav-4 doesn't seem set up for it at all. You don't buy a Toyota if you enjoy driving, do you?

Heel-and-toe isn't the same as double-declutch.

What are we arguing about again?

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

Don't understand the question. What counts as 'danger'? Another vehicle approaching a junction with your road in the distance, or a football suddenly landing in front of you?

Also, some people are better at 'seeing' than others (or better at processing what they've seen, anyway), so I'm not sure your survey will yield any useful answers.

There is if you are missing the opportunity to add a safety feature to support it, when it's not needed.

We could make all sorts of extra failsafe items, we don't need to. There's no need for more than one failsafe, one that everyone knows.

There is - two failsafes are better than one. In fact, the brake failsafe is the better option, since most people's first automatic instinct is to hit the brakes when they are going to fast.

But it's not needed....

No knocking into neutral, or reaching for the key needed at all. Plus automatically throttling back a) preserves the inlet manifold pressure for the brake servo and b) allows the power steering/abs/esp etc to continue working, whereas killing the engine would do neither of these things.

There's no need to knock it into neutral when you key-off, just keep your foot on the brake and turn the key. Throttle stays shut, manifold vac maintained, engine still turning and adding engine braking to the effect while maintaining steering and braking servos.

It's the best failsafe, no arguments.

There is an argument, I've given you one.

You just like left foot braking, fine, you can have a switch to disable that option. But for 90% of us non-racer numpties out here, the more safety options the better, and we don't care about left foot braking.

Are you accusing me of being a "racer numpty"!? 😆 What's the point in having a whole heap of cars that react differently and have different failsafes, just include a key and you have your failsafe. The same failsafe that has been entirely successful throughout the history of motoring. It's the only failsafe you need and leaves the rest of the car control to whoever is driving in whatever manner they choose.

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation (like I did last week when I drove into the back of a Landy 110 )

I back off and assess the situation, unless there's an immediate impact likely, then I hit the brake while choosing one of the escape routes I've identified. But a stuck throttle is neither of those and my first instinct would not be to hit the brake, it would be to try to release the throttle unless I was about to hit something, then obviously brake comes first, then ignition key, though I may be unusual.

I think part of the problem is people are crap at reacting to danger in cars, while you may say its peoples first reaction to hit the brake, I can reel off at least 3 people I know who have just closed their eyes in accidents, including one who crashed, then drove through a wall because they kept their foot on the gas. I'm not sure it IS everyones first instinct.

on the approach to a sharp corner/junction, with a close-following car behind you

So heel toe [b]is[/b] just for glenH's example, shaving the aforementioned 0.5 second off journey time and mcrae-esque driving then?

Now I'd love to get on a track and have a go at left foot brake, arse/elbow pedal, double dutch etc driving, sounds a right laugh. Not on public roads tho

Now I'd love to get on a track and have a go at left foot brake, arse/elbow pedal, double dutch etc driving, sounds a right laugh. Not on public roads tho

Its not really a laugh, I'm not sure how bored you are, but it's another technique of getting smoother cornering (even at lower speeds), prepping for corners properly, maintaining brake coverage while accelerating etc - I don't have to lift, move, press to brake, it's right there under my foot all the time. I know for a fact that it's saved at least one kids life as I'd never have stopped if I'd been ordinarily resting on the throttle when he ran out from being stooped behind some bins, the time taken to shift my foot would have seen him buried in my window.
Not everyoen wants to, fair enough, it's not necessary. I like to. I've no need to have a failsafe that spoils that if I just have a key thanks.

Don't understand the question. What counts as 'danger'? Another vehicle approaching a junction with your road in the distance, or a football suddenly landing in front of you?

I kind of covered that in the second paragraph...

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation

Donk, no, you've missed the point.

Heel-and-toeing allows you to brake-steer-drive more smoothly, thus reducing the risk of the tailgater in your example impacting you from the rear.

As you say, speeding up isn't the best way to deal with a vehicle driving too close. Roadcraft recommends you slow down, in fact, allowing the following driver more time to react. As I think you were saying.

(You're not braking and accelerating at the same time, it's to do with matching engine revs to speed, which is why it's smoother. When you get it right. If you get it wrong, you just look and sound stupid.)

I used to have to brake with my toe and keep the engine going with my heel (left foot on the clutch) on my Fiat 127 at junctions if the engine was cold so it didn't cut out (choke didn't alway keep sufficient revs going).

I kind of covered that in the second paragraph...

No you didn't. You just said you drove into the back of a Landy.

I think part of the problem is people are crap at reacting to danger in cars

That is very significant.

People feel very safe driving along in modern cars and relatively few have experienced loss of traction/blow-out/sliding on a poor surface....until an emergency situation when they don't know how to handle it.

Your typical enthusiastic mountain biker knows about maximising traction and controlling/riding-out a slide without panicking -often through having a few offs at relatively low speed off-road, which has to be an advantage.

Fail to read the road on a motorbike or just slam on the brakes in a corner and you'll be off too.

Most car drivers have no idea at all.

Most people have no idea at all.

If visiting this forum for ~10 years (!?) has taught me anything at all, I think that's it.

how about if it were possible to only have the brake pedal override the engine if the accel pedal is pressed down a long way (ie so far the brakes would otherwise not be able to stop the car) this would allow you to still left foot brake and have the engine still respond to your right foot whilst feathering the brakes with your left.
When left foot braking your use the brake pedal and accel pedal totally differently to how you use these controls when you having a fit trying to stop the car when the accel pedal gets stuck / held down.
Both pedals have electrical sensors so its not too hard to have software make the decision is this left foot braking (ie ok) or is this a panic brake event (simples)..

Good point nwilko. Plenty of cars have 'emergency brake assist' these days anyway, where they keep the brakes on max (until you release it completely) if they detect a panic brake event.

Ok just read a bit about heel toe, matching engine speed, how does that differ from
brake
clutch in
release brake
apply accelerator to match revs to speed/gear
let clutch out
?

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating. If that is the case I refer you once again to the aforementioned 0.5 second. (yes CK said he always has a foot on the brake pedal but what % of people can drive like that properly? I'd guess less than 10% and I'm firmly in the inept 90% which would benefit from accelerator cut off - with an override switch if you must)

Both pedals have electrical sensors so its not too hard to have software make the decision is this left foot braking (ie ok) or is this a panic brake event (simples)..

Or just use the a key, one less thing to get software issues and rely on (relatively) sensitive sensors.

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating. If that is the case I refer you once again to the aforementioned 0.5 second.

Heel/toe I can brake continuously, allowing me continuous safety from covering the brake, while downshifting smoothly, bringing engine braking into the picture and never having moved from the brake pedal. It's nothing to do with how fast you go round the corner in 99% of the time, I do it ALL the time, not just when I'm in a hurry. As said above though, it's not needed, no-one claimed it was NEEDED. The point is that the brake-accel failsafe isnt needed if you keep a key, meaning peolpe can drive as they like and always have done without having to alter because oen person thinks heel-toe isnt necessary and can be abolished. The extra failsafe adds no extra safety. Everyone knows where the key is, turn it, engine is killed, brakingand steering maintained, everyones a winner.

It's only when you remove the key from the mix, a laziness/gadget feature, that you CREATE a problem that needs to be fixed with another safety feature that isnt suited to everyone. Dont introduce a danger and yuo dont need to add more safety.

heel-and-toe

what [b]is[/b] this please ?

Stupid driving aside, I do know that Toyota goes so completely bonkers overboard with its little yellow warning stickers and warning buzzers and don't-do-this and can't-do-that features that I for one would never buy one again.

Sounds like it's become victim of its own safety-conscious OCD.

Interviewing in a face mask sounds funny, wish I'd seen that.

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No you didn't. You just said you drove into the back of a Landy.

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation

THEN I hit the Landy 🙁

how does that differ from
brake
clutch in
release brake
apply accelerator to match revs to speed/gear
let clutch out
?

That's all one thing after another. Potentially jerky.

Heel and toe is everything simultaneously. Potentially smoother.

I don't know what I was supposed to learn from the Senna clip but I found it hard to get past the wimpy loafers 🙁 Also his feet seemed to be getting in each other's ways 🙁

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating.

It probably only took m_f a miniscule amount of time to crash into his Landy 🙂

Everything's miniscule in physics, isn't it?

I don't know what I was supposed to learn from the Senna clip

You were supposed to learn what heel-and-toeing is.

Were you expecting something else when you asked 'what is heel and toe?'

Something sexual, perhaps? Something to do with a girl's bottom, maybe?

You were supposed to learn what heel-and-toeing is.

well I am none the wiser. I saw his feet jammed into a confusion but couldn't tell why he was doing it 🙁

Perhaps a description in words explaining what is supposed to be achieved might help... all I've gathered so far is that it's supposed to be 'smoother', whatever that means.

Something to do with a girl's bottom, maybe?

well, now you come to mention it, that might be more interesting...

Go and look at arses on the Friday Arses and Anal thread then!

Go and look at arses on the Friday Arses and Anal thread then!

it's rubbish this week, mostly blokes in lycra 🙁

didn't they burn all the cows and shut the bridleways last time there was heel and toe?

Lucky enough the car in front is a Toyota
and my brakes work

didn't they burn all the cows and shut the bridleways last time there was heel and toe?

😆

well I am none the wiser. I saw his feet jammed into a confusion but couldn't tell why he was doing it

Don't worry yourself, just accept that some people want to drive that way, it doesnt mean you're driving like an idiot if you do, but that a failsafe that eliminates the possibility is pointless when you could just have a key 😉