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Just read the following on the BBC News website.
The government is due to publish the results of a consultation which proposes introducing tougher punishments for illegal mobile use by drivers.
The minimum fine for non-HGV drivers is expected to rise from £100 to £150, while penalty points are set to increase from three to four.
How lame is that. Should be a simple ban of 3 months for first offence and then increasing duration for subsequent offences.
How can anybody have faith in the system when they increase the punishment by such a pathetic measure.
I find it hard to get excited about the level of punishment when there is so little enforcement
Does it fail to mention that most offenders just choose to go on a crappy "What's Driving Us?" course?
Punishment is irrelevant if no one is getting collared for it.
My recent experiences whilst commuting by bike.
1 - A lady pulled out of a side road and i rode at 25mph into side of her car, ended up on her bonnet and with my foot through her windscreen, surprisingly not too badly injured except for back and neck, she stood and admitted fault to the police and they have done nothing.
- A Transit van, tried to overtake me as i went around a temporary traffic light in the road, hit me with front nearside wing and pushed me into the lights and drove away having broken my frame and two of my ribs, witness in vehicle behind called Police, gave all his details and the registration number of the van. This was March 2016 and the Police haven't even been to take a statement from the witness.
I have very little faith in the system at the moment. It seems they are only interested in the "quick hits" that don't involve any work and will go straight to Court such as drink driving or driving with mobile.
Having been the victim of a cockbadger who was using his phone whilst driving, this saddens me but doesn't surprise me at all. Until the government brings in reasonable penalties, (the enforced removal of at least one vital organ, for instance), people aren't going to stop. It just leaves me baffled as to why people are apparently so desperate to spend every available opportunity with a mobile clamped to their ear.
Anything that raises awareness of how unacceptable it is is a start. But £50? Come off it.
I agree with the OP, although talking on the phone I think I'd be happy with the £150 4 points thing but texting/facebook/instagram should be an instant ban.
I find it hard to get excited about the level of punishment when there is so little enforcement
scudMy recent experiences whilst commuting by bike.
.........
The idea that a driver will be texting or looking at facebook and just crush me has pretty much put me off riding on the roads now. I've seen two bus drivers looking at their phones while driving as well as a Tesco delivery driver not to mention a HGV driver reading a map and another writing on a notepad. All while the vehicles where moving.
Came across this last night. Why people do it:
They can make the panlty an instant ban and a £10,000 fine .
But .
Who is going to enforce the law ?
Police numbers are so low they can't do much more than target known hotspots for drugs and violent conduct .
They have no personnel available to monitor the highways other than a few on the motorways.
The standards of driving are shocking but there is virtually no chance of getting caught at the moment .
I find it hard to get excited about the level of punishment when there is so little enforcement
+1 million
To be honest, the original penalty would likely be enough [b]if it was enforced[/b], the first time would likely make the majority stop doing it, and if you got caught 2 or 3 times in succession you'd be in the poop.
An unmarked/plain clothes bobby could likely walk or ride down the side of any traffic queue on any day in any town and catch a dozen people before rush hour is over.
Saw this on FB earlier but can't remember how to link to the actual video 😳
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Does it include smoking too?
I find myself getting unbelievably angry with arseholes in Bristol who narrowly avoid crashing into me both when I'm in my car or my bike because they're on their phone. One knob overtook me on my bike way too close in a merc the other day on his phone, cut me up and then reversed at speed into a parking space whilst there were kids everywhere walking to school. He was completely oblivious to me being there.
Not letting it bother me is tantamount to turning the other cheek and walking on by, so does anyone have any tips how to deal with these belters?
To be honest, the original penalty would likely be enough if it was enforced
Whats the enforcement worth if theres so little stigma from a conviction. The size of the fine and the number of points is irrelevant. Any other kind of conviction would need to be declared in all sorts of circumstances (job applications, applications for insurance or credit and so on - professionally I need to make declarations as part of tendering for public contracts) but in all those situations you're pretty much expected not to include motoring offences in those declarations. The conviction is just something to moan about in the pub (in a manner thats really a boast) but to never otherwise have to face up to. You can pretty much keep the whole thing a secret if you want.
Its pretty much institutional and societal norm that convictions for selfish and careless behaviour are completely acceptable. More than acceptable - we're happier to just[i] not know[/i] than to know and make an assessment about it.
The penalty is therefore trivial, which makes the offence trivial. Whats the different between 3 trivial points and 4 trivial points. Whats the difference between a £100 trivial fine and a £150 trivial fine. Nothing.
Good that they're increasing the penalties, but shame you can just plead hardship 8 times and be let off before doing it again and killing someone
I was reminded about this yesterday. Sat stationary in a commute jam on way into Glasgow, guy in car beside me, also stationary, presumably with handbrake on, has phone visibly in hand texting or on media. 2 Policemen walking along road stop, chap his window and give him a proper telling off for it. Looked like just a warning right enough, but a good reminder to folk.....
guy last night drove passed dicking about with his phone (I was waiting turn right onto the road he was on) I joined road and overtook him in heavy traffic, still messing with the phone. I said "Stop doing that and concentrate on driving" what do we think was the response?
A full and frank apology?
A sheepish "whoops, yeah, I should know better"?
Simply ignored me?
Or a mouthful of abuse?
go on take a guess.
I don't get that. Pulling shady stuff when you know there's little chance of getting caught, ok, but getting all arsey when called out, [i]when you know you're in the wrong[/i]?
Doesn't seem much of an increase, I know it's 50% increase in fine but 50% of a pretty paltry sum isn't much. Points just don't seem to work, especially when so many are still driving with >12 points. Instant short ban, a week or two on the naughty step, leave your car at the nearest police station, no real cost incurred but a shit load of inconvenience for your average drive everywhere punter. I reckon that would be more of an eye opener.
That and actually having some enforcement of course.
Pointless exercise making the penalty worse as no-one gets done now anyway. I know a few people who constantly use their phone while driving, it's become the norm for loads of people! The sooner we get a campaign similar to the drink-driving ones to force the message through and make it socially unacceptable the better. A few tricks I use occasionally:
I have been known to snatch the phone out of their hands and chuck it in the back seat. Works best with convertibles.
Or if I'm in a car as a passenger and see someone in a works van with their phone number on the side when they're texting/Fbooking is to ring it (with my number blocked) and yell at them.
Another trick is if they are stopped at a set of traffic lights is to wait behind them (on the bike) then press the boot release as they drive off, works really well on those cars with automatic lifting/lowering devices 😀
I may have done no.3 to someone in a low multistorey car park once, boot rubbed the ceiling for a while. I was on foot for that one.
maccruiskeen - memberWhats the enforcement worth if theres so little stigma from a conviction....more stuff
I tend to agree with you the more I think about it 🙁
I guess that's kind of another issue though.
1 - enforcement
2 - penalty level
3 - social stigma
we're only arguing about 1 and 2 because people (socially I mean) aren't taking point 3 seriously. A massive run of enforcement, or a massive penalty (or both!) will hopefully start change that though with more public education and an actual will to make it unacceptable like they did with drink driving.
What I'd really like to see is a change to bans and short term seizing of vehicles.
Get caught using your phone, you lose your licence and your vehicle for three weeks. It's an employers van? Tough. It's your mates car? Tough. You need your car to get to work? Tough. There goes all of your annual leave because you're a selfish idiot who can't pay attention while driving.
Drive while banned = a 12 month ban with extended retest and/or prison.
No complaints that they're using poor motorists (wah wah) as a cash cow by giving out fines.
For a second offence, studies have shown that "phone-driving" is as bad as drink driving, so why not treat it the same and give out mandatory 12 month bans?
Minimum of £500 fine and 4 points. £1000 and 6 points second offence within 3 years and 3 month ban following that. Follow that up with high profile blitzes outside schools, and places where traffic slows at lights in the morning etc and some hard hitting dead children videos on evening telly for a bit of parental/child leverage.
Regardless of enforcement and penalties (which I think are both inadequate) one of the big problems is that there is currently a general attitude that using a mobile is OK if you can get way with it, rather than something you just shouldn't do. I think that's reflected in the attitude of the police. They could easily book a lot of people to make examples of them, but it's not a priority.
Drink driving was a bit like this a few years ago, but people's attitudes have changed enormously.
There's also good evidence that any mobile use by drivers is dangerous, but you will see lots of cyclists on this forum explaining how they are fine with their hands free sets.
All the cops have to do s stand at the side of the road at rush hour as traffic joins the back of the queue. They will see no end of people ( mainly women from my experience ) with their phones on their laps. They could dish out all the fines they would like. A good money spinner.
I have to cross a dual carriage way and the traffic is mainly doing 10 mph full of people face booking. It really ****s me off and makes crossing the road bloody dangerous.
Follow that up with high profile blitzes outside schools, and places where traffic slows at lights in the morning etc
This exactly. Warning signs up for a couple of weeks (like they sometimes do with mobile speed cameras) then plain-clothed 'spectators' getting evidence (pictures/video) and an automatic big fine or, preferably, a ban.
What strikes me about this problem is that most of the cars people do it in have bluetooth. How hard is it to connect your phone to your car?
Agreed - govt should've had the balls to ban all in-car calls. Even if that means passengers too to make enforcement easier, tough shitThere's also good evidence that any mobile use by drivers is dangerous, but you will see lots of cyclists on this forum explaining how they are fine with their hands free sets.
If they'd allow the police to actually keep some of the fine revenue they could easily recoup, even if they were all driving round in ****ing Bentleys never mind just holding a camera at a roadside
Does it fail to mention that most offenders just choose to go on a crappy "What's Driving Us?" course?
They might be crappy but they have been shown to work.
The percentage of people who believe it is "acceptable" to take a call on their mobiles while driving has doubled from 7 per cent in 2014 to 14 per cent in 2016
Further to my post further up. As i come out of Norwich riding home there is road that goes from 3 lanes, down to 2, then single lane and traffic always slow, you simply cannot ride down the left hand side as drivers give you no room and there is 7-8 drains all of which have sunk a good 2 inches. You are left with only being able to ride down the driver side of vehicles to make any progress. At the height of it's popularity a few months ago, i could clearly see 6 cars out of the about 20 in the queue playing ****in' Pokemon!
One thing that must be a bit of a grey area though is when is a mobile phone or not? if you are making a call or on Facebook, clearly being mis-used, but i use my phone as my Sat-Nav? Difficult to Police?
7 years ago my wifes car was hit hard from behind by a c**t in a transit van who was on the phone.
The impact pushed her into the car infront and wrote off her car.
She was 10 weeks pregnant at the time, and started bleeding immediately after the crash.
2 weeks later she lost the baby - we've got no idea if the two are connected.
I hate people who drive whilst on the phone.. it needs to be 6 points and £1k for first offence, and a 6 month ban for the second.
If you're driving a HGV you should loose your HGV entitlement for life.
I must remember to forward the photos I take of drivers using phones to the police, while I cycle past their cars using my Nexus 7 2013. 😆
A lot of people seem incredibly stupid and gullible. Take for example how often they circulate stupid memes, or like and share to win this house, or "Facebook I post notice that you cannot steal my blah blah blah"......so someone should just create a meme that Facebook is spying on you and is going to start reporting your movements to the police. If you check FB or post a message then mysteriously accelerate to 40mph FB will notify the cops. Worth a shot.
police have had 20% budget cuts in the last 6 years
In the five years from March 2010, police officer numbers declined by close to 12% - a loss of almost 17,000. The decline in the workforce was even greater, with a loss of 15,877 support staff and 4,587 police community support officers (PCSOs).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34899060
Thing is, using a mobile used to be legal and whilst it was obvious you weren't concentrating 100%, it was reasonably safe. Now people are actually texting or checking FB or other stuff, which actually involves looking at the screen. Its just obvious that its an accident waiting to happen.
I met a Guy in a wheelchair last year who was cycling when a Van hit him right up the arse. Bloke was using his phone and this guy was 'lucky' to be alive. Poor guy was in a right mess.
Punishment s a touch irrelevant if its not enforced by why not shove at least 2 zeros on the fine and one on the number of years banned?
The money raised until people cotton on will pay for a few bobbies with cameras. Relax the requirements for nicking people as well would help eg any film of a phone being used by a driver in a moving vehicle where is can been seen to be on the highway.
Thing is, using a mobile used to be legal and whilst it was obvious you weren't concentrating 100%, it was reasonably safe...
That's a common misconception, and part of the problem being discussed here. There's good research which demonstrates that just the act of having a phone conversation significantly impairs driving ability. It's not the same as chatting to a passenger, and it doesn't matter if you are on hands free.
Popped on my FB nonsense feed
Nearly there on the hard hitting front, but the majority of those kids will be on the phone whilst driving within 1 month
Who is going to enforce the law ?Police numbers are so low they can't do much more than target known hotspots for drugs and violent conduct .
They have no personnel available to monitor the highways other than a few on the motorways.
The standards of driving are shocking but there is virtually no chance of getting caught at the moment .
round here theyve handed the litter patrol enforcement,and dog fouling to a private company, zero tolerance and large fines,for offenders, and as the motorway police are being lined up for privatisation, or pfi, the sooner the better .
asfor lgv drivers on the phone at low speeds, shout loudly there seems to be a body under your vehicle, they soon put the phone down and block the traffic, to have a look. some are not happy, some are in a state of anger.
It's the enforcement as much as the punishment, as others have said.
And I'll say this again - stop pussyfooting about. We don't need more laws passing. We need enforcement of the existing ones*. And no exceptions to a ban. The whole ****ing point is that it inconveniences you and may affect your job and family! Even if they make it a one month ban and your employer has to keep your job open for a first ban.
*I accept that this is a resource/priority issue.
Controversial but why don't they put the police on a bonus per conviction. They'd soon pay for their own salary in fines and there would be an incentive to actually enforce. obviously this opens up a whole can of worms regarding false reporting etc.....
Thing is, it's getting to be more than a phone issue: car info systems are now incredibly complicated, with a mass of little buttons, large and small displays, multiple stalks with multiple functions, multiple function buttons on the steering wheel, etc.
It's ok if you've had a long time to get used to whatever everything does, and where it is, but when new to a car trying to operate even simple things like screen demist, even the radio, can be very distracting and takes your attention off the road.
Even my old 51-plate Octavia is a problem when it comes to trying to adjust the heater/aircon, because it's set underneath the radio, with identical flush-fitting buttons that can only be selected/adjusted by looking at them, which means taking your eyes completely off the road.
The original radio was as bad, with up/down volume controls you couldn't tell apart by touch; I deliberately changed it to a Kenwood DAB with a big rotary volume control, and I only have one radio station set anyway, but I makes adjusting volume easy.
The Audi does have a small rotary volume control on the console by the gear selector, which is handy, but other controls are very confusing.
None of which aids driving safety, in my view.
There's good research which demonstrates that just the act of having a phone conversation significantly impairs driving ability. It's not the same as chatting to a passenger, and it doesn't matter if you are on hands free.
Got my first car with hands free a few months ago. I have decided I really don't like being on the phone in the car - maybe due to lack of familiarity but it just feels alien after twenty years mostly managing without. It probably handles 1 short running late/ got a problem call a week perhaps a couple more if I'm away for work and I like to be off it asap. I think with conversations with a passenger they can have some conception of whats going on around the car so can adjust their conversation accordingly. The voice on the end of the phone doesn't know you're about to be undertaken by a biker gang wearing leather tutu's and pink stilettos or whatever weirdness is going on next to you and can plough on regardless and I think instincts can lead us to keep listening.
Then again if the traffic's heavy or not flowing well I have been known to tell passengers to be quiet and turn the radio off. Think I might be a delicate flower when it comes to noise. 😳
And Count zero +1
New car has loads of clever infotainment stuff. Even with dash mounted display between dials and touch screen it's fiddly.
For the most part I try and regard all of it as set and forget.
Want the iPod on - choose the playlist in the car park
Want satnav - car park
Want to choose digital radio station - car park
You get the idea....
Although the aircon buttons are at least well laid out albeit set lower down than I think is ideal - much better placed in my old Ford at the top of the dash not the bottom.
I'll stop posting in a moment but back on topic fines are no good without catching people to start with. Every so often our local roads policing unit has a purge but it's never enough and they don't have the resource to do it day in day out to make a real difference.
In the good old days we used to have 2 pcso's in plain clothes a quarter of a mile down the road spotting drivers on their phones, and they would radio ahead to a uniformed check point. It was like the proverbial shelling peas, and as a neighbourhood unit we did this once every 2 weeks on major roads.
At the time we had upwards of 30 response officers and 12 neighbourhood bobbies for 2 towns. Since the cuts we just have the 12.
Much as it saddens me to say, mobile phone offenders really don't register on the priority radar anymore. Domestics, mental health,vulnerability and public disorder are pretty much all we can cope with at the moment.
What happened to the stigma around using phones while driving? It seems now that everyone has smartphones, it has become a necessity and so everyone has accepted it.
I know we see it all the time, people texting away on the motorway or whatever. But I've been genuinely shocked by some of the comments made by people over the past few weeks. They were running interviews with people on the radio today and the comments were frightening. People just don't believe they're doing anything wrong. And yet it has got to be almost as dangerous as drunk driving.
People should go to prison for repeated offences if you ask me. There are no excuses for it.
FWIW, my current job involves driving cars, each pick-up and delivery being anywhere between fifteen miles to over two hundred, and I have to be able to answer calls, usually just a location update or ETA, sometimes a tipoff about a big traffic holdup.
When I do get one, I'm using a BT headset, and I never initiate a call, reason being my phone is my satnav, screen mounted, so it's just not possible to do, although I guess if I could be arsed I could set up Siri to do it, but it's just not that much of an issue, I'll find somewhere to stop if it's really important.
The most important call would probably be to inform my team leader I'm stationary in traffic due to a pile-up ahead, so it wouldn't matter anyway!
One good step would be to allow video evidence from non-police to be used to convict. If the police cant do it, then just send evidence of company vehicles been driven whilst on the phone to the head office. Good PR for the company, even if it shows that their drivers are idiots.
I sent some footage to a national coach company from my in car video (just use the phone camera set to video mode when you start.. as you aren't going to use it for anything else!!) and they just responded with a stock "we are sorry you felt our driver was acting inappropriately, however our drivers are trained to a high standard and will be spoken to." How about a weeks unpaid leave.... that would stop him.
If company drivers thought that they could lose a weeks wages they'd soon stop.
Fully appreciate the police have been cut, but I'd happily make a statement against any driver I saw on the phone.
Given that the Police and Crime Commissioners are democratically elected and accountable - let's not divert this as to the whys and wherefores - how about we start there? Social media campaigns, Cycling UK setting up a "contact your PCC" campaign like they do with MPs?
The Audi does have a small rotary volume control on the console by the gear selector, which is handy, but other controls are very confusing.
None of which aids driving safety, in my view.
Good point, changing channels on the radio is an IQ test these days, although I see the latest generation have put a key pad back in.
been looking at new cars and my end choice is likely to include one with an 8 inch touch screen and a data link, which apparently can put my iPhone screen up and access apps etc. Presumably this means I can open, read and type work emails while hooning down the motorway... 🙁 Not researched it enough yet, but hope it has an override to stop it functioning when moving or something...
Good point, changing channels on the radio is an IQ test these days
wait until you see these 'video recorders' they have now 😉
** (I drive my car about once a fortnight and can barely work the stereo. honestly, I've used studio mixing desks that are more intuitive 😆 )
Interesting little video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37643994
Just shows it's pure arrogance and "don't give a shit-ness"
utterly inefectual and pointless with police numbers only likely to decrease further
DezB - MemberInteresting little video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37643994
Just shows it's pure arrogance and "don't give a shit-ness"
Saw that this morning. There's no comparison in terms of the act but their excuse and willingness to justify their actions is exactly the way people act if you challenge them about parking in disabled bays or parent and child.
Women and 3 children killed on the A34 near us recently. Lorry driver admitted being distracted by his phone.
They have no place being used or even available as temptation in the car, and I'm not convinced by hands free either.
[i]exactly the way people act if you challenge them about parking in disabled bays or parent and child.[/i]
..and driving like a dick in general.
What angers me is these idiots who film themselves with their phone whilst driving then post it on social media. The amount of people commenting on videos defending these complete tools raises the temperature of my urine to the point of becoming gaseous. It seems that dicking about with your phone whilst driving is acceptable if no-one gets killed.
** (I drive my car about once a fortnight and can barely work the stereo. honestly, I've used studio mixing desks that are more intuitive :lol:)
Exactly! There's just nothing intuitive about many cars' instrument and control layouts; I have roughly fifteen-twenty minutes to do a condition appraisal of each car I collect, and many are either completely new to me, or I've only driven one once or twice before, maybe several weeks ago, and I have to sus out what various controls do, and where they are, before I set off to drive maybe 100+ miles, and it's often a nightmare trying to figure out even basic functions!
Even things like locking filler cap covers; on one occasion I had to pick up a VW Touran, and as usual it had about fifteen-twenty miles worth of fuel in the tank.
I spent a significant amount of time trying to figure out how to open it, (and before anyone suggests looking in the handbook, a), I shouldn't have to, and b), often the cars I pick up from a certain charity don't have any documentation left in them), so I asked one of the valeting blokes, who had to think for a minute, before saying 'ah, I think I know', and groped around inside the driver's door pocket; and there it was, hidden right at the back of the door pocket!
WT actual F? 🙄
I have developed a new tactic to help calm my rising anger at being tailgated by persistant phone users .
Firstly I will stop / not pull away when the traffic moves off, and as most people stop too close to pull round they are blocked in. They then get the paddington stare in the rear veiw mirror.
This is usually met by a 'WTF just let me get on with my drive and phonecall you idiot' type of hand jesture .
Fine by me . But I dont want Kevin talking into his flippen phone like he's reporting in to Dermot O Dreary on the X factor so at a safe for me point , generally with a stream of oncoming cars I indicate and stop.
Kevin is still engrossed in his call, so he stops too . Poor Kevin then has to do some complex driving , like changing gear and steering and waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic. Once Kevin has eventually found a gap and done one up the road I can continue with my journey.
There is a very low chance that Kev will hit my car if I stop at a Zebra , or If a kid runs out and I have to stop suddenly Kev will hit my car and punt me forward into the kid , or Kev hits my car and punts me into the stationary traffic in front of me. But there is a chance and by stopping that chance is removed .
Works equally as well with tail gaters
Apologies to all Kevins reading this