[Closed] Tomorrows teacher strike.

The construction sector started being shafted (this time round) about 5/6 years ago. How many of its members have gone on strike. **** all I'd say. All that's happened is prices have been hammered down and in the same respect as teachers quality of work has suffered. But the biggest change has been thousands upon thousands left the trades and got other jobs.

Why not blame the employer for not meeting their demands? There'd be no strike if they did.

😆

If the bank had given me the money, I wouldn't have had to rob it!

My brother's a joiner in Canada - they had to stop work on a roof before Christmas because the temperature wasn't going to get above -20C that day 🙂

If the bank had given me the money, I wouldn't have had to rob it!

Analogy fail.

Performance-related pay seems like a win, until you consider the practicalities of it. Even working in a sixth-form college with, currently, external exams at the end of each year, it's difficult to see how it would work:

I have two classes which I share with another teacher; is their performance due to me or to her?

I've recently started teaching a different subject. I've had a huge amount of support from the other teachers of the subject, which will have impacted upon my classes' performance.

I teach one subject with a lot of coursework. Having PRP makes my marking of their coursework rather suspect.

How well students do at AS/A level is compared to their average GCSE score on entry, but if they've been pushed through to meet targets at their previous school they'll not necessarily be as well prepared for A level study as other students - students with a B target from one secondary will generally get an A grade, while from another they'll drop to a C.

Talking to a fellow builder chap the other day. Was on about kids blah blah. His daughter was sitting at grade c for English maths and sciences. He's now paying 60 quid a week for 3 hrs of extra home tuition. After her mock she's now been predicted a* in maths and a in the other two. My daughter goes to the same school, this worries me!

ernie_lynch - Member

"Us in the private sector" ? I'm in the private sector and I don't agree with you. Lots of 'us in the private sector' believe that teachers should receive decent pay, pensions, and conditions. And reject the argument that they should have less favourable pay, pensions, and conditions.

I was referring to those of us in the Private sector that are not normally engaged in the wringing of hands and embracing of trees.. 😉

Liking all the talk about swapping jobs. I work in the private sector for a multinational consultancy, and quite frankly if half the people here swapped jobs with any of my mates who work in the public sector (among them teachers, social workers, drug workers) then I can honestly say they wouldn't last 5 minutes, myself included.

Many people in the private sector have no idea how difficult, stressful and exhausting working in the public sector is in certain professions, and yet many have a blinkered belief that they are 'better', because they have it constantly rammed down their throat by politicians and the media that the private sector is more efficient.

I'd love to do a job swap then watch them bleat about conditions.
I knew what I was getting into, I'm still here, if I strike I get nothing other than a probable p45.

That argument is just a race to the bottom, surely the fact they have the ability to strike, without all being laid off is a good thing and something worth defending?

Liking all the talk about swapping jobs. I work in the private sector for a multinational consultancy, and quite frankly if half the people here swapped jobs with any of my mates who work in the public sector (among them teachers, social workers, drug workers) then I can honestly say they wouldn't last 5 minutes, myself included.

Yep, I work in the Private Sector and cannot believe how lucky I am, barely work 37 hours a week, no over time, no work to take home, zero stress, excellent pay and perks (pension etc). Next door neighbour is a teacher, she's gone to work before I get out of bed and comes back after I get home!

I've worked in the private and currently public sectors. Get paid less in the public sector, but have better leave and flexi time rather than shifts. Tbh, sick leave and pensions are now about the same.

We all know what the deal with a job is when we start it, public or private sector. The terms change over time, for better and worse, you either fight to try and preserve your rights or change job if you can't, in either sector.

The problem is, if teachers strike, lots of people strike, it's right in the front line for parents. If I strike, or a brickie strikes, it directly affects very few people and no one notices.

Talking to a fellow builder chap the other day. Was on about kids blah blah. His daughter was sitting at grade c for English maths and sciences. He's now paying 60 quid a week for 3 hrs of extra home tuition. After her mock she's now been predicted a* in maths and a in the other two. My daughter goes to the same school, this worries me!

Our A level targets are then set based on grades achieved after 1-to-1 private tuition dragged little Jonny up to a C in maths.

Of course, if parents want to pay for private tuition for the students I'm teaching once I'm on performance related pay... 🙂

Yep, I work in the Private Sector and cannot believe how lucky I am, barely work 37 hours a week, no over time, no work to take home, zero stress, excellent pay and perks (pension etc). Next door neighbour is a teacher, she's gone to work before I get out of bed and comes back after I get home!

Me too. Work around 50-60 hrs per week, lots of unpaid overtime, plenty of work to take home, lots of stress, reasonable pay but not great pension. Teacher over the road leaves after me and is always home before me. Not sure any of that has shed any light.

Of course, lots of a teacher's work is homework so just because someone's home before you doesn't mean they're sitting with their feet up lighting cigars with hundred pound notes.

Work around 50-60 hrs per week, lots of unpaid overtime, plenty of work to take home, lots of stress, reasonable pay but not great pension. Teacher over the road leaves after me and is always home before me. Not sure any of that has shed any light.

I'm on strike today but being sick of all the managerialism and poor working conditions of recent years, I'm taking early retirement next week. 34 years in the classroom, a year teaching in Aus, 2 conference trips to Harvard, a teachers' fellowship at Merton College, Oxford. I've taught some great kids in comprehensive schools who've gone on to interesting jobs (including Rushanara Ali MP and a few barristers and academics). It's been good but demanding, now it's dreadful, I'm out.

BillMC - Member
I'm on strike today but being sick of all the managerialism and poor working conditions of recent years, I'm taking early retirement next week. 34 years in the classroom, a year teaching in Aus, 2 conference trips to Harvard, a teachers' fellowship at Merton College, Oxford. I've taught some great kids in comprehensive schools who've gone on to interesting jobs (including Rushanara Ali MP and a few barristers and academics). It's been good but demanding, now it's dreadful, I'm out.

where and when did it all go so wrong?

[img] [/img]

🙂

Work around 50-60 hrs per week

Is this actual work or just being in the office (I'm not questioning your work ethic BTW, just asking)? There are plenty of people here who 'work' those sort of hours, but they spend a lot of time hanging around the coffee machine chatting, going to the gym/pub/shops at lunch, stood outside smoking, going for coffee mid-morning at the local Costa Coffee etc...

Mrs Daz (a drug worker) on the other hand has to be in for 9pm prompt ready to go for when the clinic opens, works solidly with no break til lunch when she spends 10 minutes eating a sandwich, then is back at it solidly til 5. No standing around chatting at the coffee machine, no messing about on internet forums, no shopping/gym/pub at lunchtime, no fag-breaks, and barely even the time to go to the bog. She would actually work longer hours as it would give her time to enter all the notes on the computer system, but her boss insists on shutting up shop at 5 and she can't take it home with her, so the day is spent manically running around trying to fit about 10-11 hours work into 8. Needless to say she comes home pretty frazzled, and then she laughs at me when I say 'I had an argument today with some idiot* on an internet forum'....

*not referring to anyone in particular here.

No standing around chatting at the coffee machine, no messing about on internet forums, no shopping/gym/pub at lunchtime, no fag-breaks, and barely even the time to go to the bog.

The same sort of unhealthy time pressure applies in other public sector roles - as a slightly jokey example:

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6761

... so where and when did it all go so wrong?

Teaching standards if anything have gone up since I was at school - I thin you're right, the level of respect has fallen, and brought on a whole load of issues with it. But that's the same in many professions, it's not specific to teaching, I think it's more a societal shift.

Maybe you should consider joining a union, as traditionally they fight for the rights of their members?

Who says I am not a member of a union?

Of course, lots of a teacher's work is homework so just because someone's home before you doesn't mean they're sitting with their feet up lighting cigars with hundred pound notes.

Nice straw man 🙂
I wasnt saying they were however I dont believe this endless hours of evening work thats trotted out at every opportunity either.

Is this actual work or just being in the office (I'm not questioning your work ethic BTW, just asking)? There are plenty of people here who 'work' those sort of hours, but they spend a lot of time hanging around the coffee machine chatting, going to the gym/pub/shops at lunch, stood outside smoking, going for coffee mid-morning at the local Costa Coffee etc...

Fair question. I think it is heavily skewed to "real work" but we all waste time on STW and the coffee machine etc but I suspect thats true of most jobs. When my day is done I have no reason to hang around chatting I would rather go home for a run/ride/walk the dog etc

I wasnt saying they were however I dont believe this endless hours of evening work thats trotted out at every opportunity either.

Your belief in something has no bearing on its existence.

When people started deciding that they knew better than the teacher. When I was a kid, if I'd done wrong and got a detention, my parents would have been right behind the school, I wouldn't have dared argue about it. These days, if a child gets a detention, the parents are up in arms. Little Johnny's not done his homework three weeks on the bounce?

This isnt really the same thing though. I am less inclined to listen to endless "we work 26 hours a day" from some teachers however I fully respect and support my childrens teachers who are working hard in their interests.

I am less inclined to listen to endless "we work 26 hours a day" from some teachers

...however I fully respect and support my childrens teachers who are working hard in their interests.

Genuinely surprised that you lot haven't gobbled together and issued a "global" invoice for a fine for Teachers for not turning up at work without a Genuine reason.

Quite why no one hasn't thought of this is quite beyond me.

Doesn't really matter either way whether you believe them or not...

Yes of course and as Mike above says it doesnt make it not true etc however it is my opinion and public opinion is important for your cause (unless I am the only one, I suspect I am not)

I guess my opinion, forged from a generation of teachers who had had other vocations forced upon them prior to entering the profession (being called up to fight Wars and the like) and who quite often had other jobs outside of schools during holiday periods so were better versed with what goes on outside of the education system. This opposed to by and large what we have now which are poorly experienced and not much better educated kids going into the system, coming out the other side to perpetuate that limitation upon others.

Respect has to be earned one way or another and school kids are very savvy, so are their parents and the number of dolly daydreams and ditzy dicks I've met at various Parents meeting over the years and the general lower standards that are even being attempted to A level that were more often O level standard in my time leave you cold. They are not worth the money, in a way both Teachers and Pupils have been failed by whichever Governmental system set the dumbing down process in place.

So if higher standards are to be attempted, how else should it be gone about other than through pay and performance? The difficulty not having experienced what life used to be like for my generation I can't see how things can change, so there is forever going to be strife.

It's a difficult one, but one thing is clear striking isn't the answer, not if you want to be regarded as a 'Profession' rather than just another proletarian vocation.

rot. they came out on strike to get a 1% pay rise last time!?
one ****ing percent.
professions are valued by what they pay, aren't they?
24k? and that's pretty much what you get from 25 through to retirement, unless you gain promotion.
apparently society doesn't value teachers. if they did they'd be paid accordingly. no wonder the churn and number of vacancies is so high.
pay peanuts...

Why can't the teachers strike when the kids have broken up and the teachers still have to be in school?

Ah I see. Its like holding a gun to an innocents head and asking for the authorities to meet your demands.

Why can't the teachers strike when the kids have broken up and the teachers still have to be in school?

No one can possibly be that thick! Are you seriously asking why people don't strike when it would cause no inconvenience whatsoever?

Ah I see. Its like holding a gun to an innocents head and asking for the authorities to meet your demands.

I thought that was the point of a strike?

Lovely quiet roads today,no idiots blocking the drive , and saying just dropping the sprogs off,want be a minute, same tonight, no screaming paramedics sirens or police cars at 8.45 to 9.00am, due to all the crap parking of parents and stoping them getting past.

and during the day lots of bored people walking around and across the fields looking for something to occupy their minds.

On the NUT website, three main issues are highlighted:

* Excessive workload and bureaucracy
* Performance related pay
* Unfair pension changes

Having not seen much press before this strike, can someone elaborate on what those points actually cover?

I understand the PRP bit but what is excessive about the workload/bureaucracy and what are the pension changes?

So if higher standards are to be attempted, how else should it be gone about other than through pay and performance? The difficulty not having experienced what life used to be like for my generation I can't see how things can change, so there is forever going to be strife.
It's a difficult one, but one thing is clear striking isn't the answer, not if you want to be regarded as a 'Profession' rather than just another proletarian vocation.

Good post sir!

I've always thought of the old "I don't like this so I'm going on strike until my demands are met" is a bit puerile and childish. If teachers (or anyone else for that matter) want to maintain an above market rate package (when you factor pension and holidays), why not pitch how they propose to add value and improve service in return for it, i.e "We will commit as a union to get our members to raise pass grades (or some other KPI, independently verified) by X% by date X. In return, we would like you to commit to us that you will then maintain current pensions and holidays, as well as offering a bonus on achievement of the KPI". That's how I get a pay rise - I make a case for it, not say to my boss "I want the same and more or else I am not going to do any work".

And as has been said, striking seems just a bit undignified when teachers want to be thought of as professionals rather than manual workers, which is the sector you'd normally identify with striking.

hora - Member

Why can't the teachers strike when the kids have broken up and the teachers still have to be in school?

Ah I see. Its like holding a gun to an innocents head and asking for the authorities to meet your demands.

I love Hora.

If teaching is such a terrible job how come there are nearly 0.5 million people employed as teachers and another 200k as teaching assistants? And further how come the number of teachers grew by nearly 8% between 2000 and 2011?

If it were that bad no one would enter the profession.

And as has been said, striking seems just a bit undignified when teachers want to be thought of as professionals rather than manual workers, which is the sector you'd normally identify with striking.

The trouble is that the 'professions' are basically an arbitrary set of tory middle class vocations which have for decades benefitted from establishment back-scratching and ego-massaging. You think if the NUT/NAS-UWT etc were to say, 'Ok we'll not strike as we're professionals, and professionals don't strike', that the government would simply say, 'ok great you lot go and stand over there with the doctors, lawyers and accountants, and by the way here's a massive pay rise'. Aye right.

"We will commit as a union to get our members to raise pass grades ..."

dragon - Member

If teaching is such a terrible job how come there are nearly 0.5 million people employed as teachers and another 200k as teaching assistants?

Ah right, so you're not allowed to defend your terms and conditions unless your job is already so awful that absolutely nobody wants to do it?

If teaching is such a terrible job how come there are nearly 0.5 million people employed as teachers and another 200k as teaching assistants? And further how come the number of teachers grew by nearly 8% betw

how come 40% of new teachers leave the profession within five years. How come we cant get enough staff in our science department. How come when they head asks me what a candidates teaching was like on interview and I say they are shite they still get the job. How come most of the trainee teachers I see are low quality graduates who obviously lack the potential but univerities still pass them? And dont even get me started on some of the ex armed forces people who have been pushed into teaching.

how come 40% of new teachers leave the profession within five years.

I seriously considered becoming a teacher a few years back. Then I saw what it did to my brother-in-law and a couple of mates and I consider myself very lucky that I never went down that road. From what I've seen it's horrific, and not something you take on unless you have massive stamina and mental strength (when it comes to work, I have neither!). Also my dad is a community governor of the local primary school. He grew up in a working class (mining) background and has had his fair share of 'hard' jobs, and he tells me that he's never seen people work as hard as teachers do these days.

On the NUT website, three main issues are highlighted:
* Excessive workload and bureaucracy
* Performance related pay
* Unfair pension changes

Having not seen much press before this strike, can someone elaborate on what those points actually cover?

The NUT do, on the webpage linked from the post where you copied the list.

why not pitch how they propose to add value and improve service in return for it, i.e "We will commit as a union to get our members to raise pass grades (or some other KPI, independently verified) by X% by date X. In return, we would like you to commit to us that you will then maintain current pensions and holidays, as well as offering a bonus on achievement of the KPI".

Unrealistic and unachievable targets have already been set by the (ultimate) employer, who wants all schools to be above average.

Ultimately, the achievement is an artificial and manipulated figure, so it's impossible to make improvements while changes are being made to deliberately reduce pass rates.

striking isn't the answer, not if you want to be regarded as a 'Profession'

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26472809 ]Teachers should behave like barristers, rather than striking.[/url]

I guess my opinion, forged from a generation of teachers who had had other vocations forced upon them prior to entering the profession (being called up to fight Wars and the like) and who quite often had other jobs outside of schools during holiday periods so were better versed with what goes on outside of the education system. This opposed to by and large what we have now which are poorly experienced and not much better educated kids going into the system, coming out the other side to perpetuate that limitation upon others.

This often trotted out, but bears no relation to my experiences. Of the five of us in my office, five of us have had jobs prior to teaching. About half the people on my primary teacher training course were mature students.

Unrealistic and unachievable targets have already been set by the (ultimate) employer, who wants all schools to be above average.

Unsure why it's "Unrealistic and unachievable" to aspire to this?

My sales team generated just over 2 million last year. This year my boss wants 2.5 million. It will be hard work, we have said that if he wants the 20% increase, we want an incentive to be paid on achievement of that KPI.

I don't see the difference.

bikebouy - Member

Genuinely surprised that you lot haven't gobbled together and issued a "global" invoice for a fine for Teachers for not turning up at work without a Genuine reason.

Quite why no one hasn't thought of this is quite beyond me.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=1388064&mid=42279&nmt=Sons+school+on+strike+during+term+time%2C+can+i+fine+them+%3F

Unsure why it's "Unrealistic and unachievable" to aspire to this?

Well hopefully most teachers would understand why it is impossible for all schools to be above average.

Unsure why it's "Unrealistic and unachievable" to aspire to this?

well exam boards are currently under pressure to lower pass rates because pass rates have been improving for a long time.
I am also not sure that this dumbing down of a levels is real. A level biology is much harder now than when I was doing them 22 years ago.

Unsure why it's "Unrealistic and unachievable" to aspire to this?

Neither is Michael Gove.

In order for you to meet your new sales target, I want 85% of your team to sell more than the average member of your team.

The ofsted report for my school states that by this July "all teachers in the school should be at least as good as the best teacher in the school."

The ofsted report for my school states that by this July "all teachers in the school should be at least as good as the best teacher in the school."

Hopefully, they meant as good as the current best teacher is currently, but one can never be sure...

However its meant its not going to happen.

I am also not sure that this dumbing down of a levels is real. A level biology is much harder now than when I was doing them 22 years ago.

I think the only difference in 'easiness' is the modular exams and the opportunity for resits. Content-wise, A level physics is as hard or harder then when I took it in 1995, which was the last non-modular year.

However its meant its not going to happen.

Have you considered sabotaging the lessons of the best teacher to make him worse? This will also help if performance-related pay comes in.

My sales team generated just over 2 million last year. This year my boss wants 2.5 million. It will be hard work, we have said that if he wants the 20% increase, we want an incentive to be paid on achievement of that KPI.

I don't see the difference.

I suspect that you probably don't.

How many of the widgets that you sell have parents who attempt suicide? How many have to return to Nepal for a fortnight in the middle of some coursework? How many have dads who have heart attacks? How many are made homeless, or have sewage running down the wall of their house? How many are thrown out of their homes because they're gay?

Neither is Michael Gove.

In order for you to meet your new sales target, I want 85% of your team to sell more than the average member of your team.

He didn't say he wants all schools to be better than average, this is just a lazy analysis of an answer he gave to a question based on the wrong premise.

He didn't say he wants all schools to be better than average, this is just a lazy analysis of an answer he gave to a question based on the wrong premise.

He wants all schools to be good. A school can only be good if it exceeds the national average.

Unsure why it's "Unrealistic and unachievable" to aspire to this?

My sales team generated just over 2 million last year. This year my boss wants 2.5 million. It will be hard work, we have said that if he wants the 20% increase, we want an incentive to be paid on achievement of that KPI.

I don't see the difference.

The difference is that sales is a piece of piss. Teaching isn't.

I could go into the nuts and bolts of this; economics, social stratification, divergent pedagogy, etc. But frankly, there's no point.

Come and spend a day at my school and see what you think. Serious offer to all that doubt whether teachers earn their crust.

Signed, an Assistant Head teacher in an SEN school.

Where you based Bullheart I've always fancied working in a SEN school?

I think the only difference in 'easiness' is the modular exams and the opportunity for resits. Content-wise, A level physics is as hard or harder then when I took it in 1995, which was the last non-modular year.

and surely modular exams a resits drive up standards as if you fail to reach a C and get a D you work hard resit and get a C surely this is a good thing?

I did my A levels in 1992 so I'm 3 years cleverer than you!!

@mefty, the exact transcript is available:

Chair: One is: if "good" requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?

Michael Gove: By getting better all the time.

Chair: So it is possible, is it?

Michael Gove: It is possible to get better all the time.

Chair: Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?

Michael Gove: I cannot remember.

Kent, near T/Wells.

Pop down for the day and I'll show you around. What's your specialism? We're looking for middle leaders in the core subjects from September...

I did my A levels in 1995 [i]and[/i] 1996 so must be doubly clever 🙂

@mefty, the exact transcript is available:

I know I read it before posting, the premise of the question is wrong - you don't need to be above average to have a good rating as far as I can fathom - happy to be proved wrong, but only primary sources accepted.

Too far away for me but its certainly something I would like to look at one day.

So you think the question was wrong and he just doesn't understand his own policies? That's worse surely?

If you read the full transcript you will find that this was a "twitter" inspired "quick fire" round of questioning, I think he did his best to answer a silly question in the spirit of that.

bullheart - Member
Kent, near T/Wells.

May i briefly interject to say how pleased I am to see you're still about, last time I spent any deal of time here you had a battle on your hands. I didn't realise you taught either. Either way, a pleasant surprise.

Thanks muchly Mr Fish. It would have been churlish to vacate the premises, so to speak. My wife would have been fairly difficult about it, had I done so....

bullheart - Member
It would have been churlish to vacate the premises, so to speak. My wife would have been fairly difficult about it, had I done so....