[Closed] Tomlinson's killer to face trial

China is many things and one of those is a repressive regime however impressed/blind you were when you visited.

Maybe it just is not as bad as you think it is, why not go and see for you self?

So if I ask if i can see the torture chambers where the imprisoned dissidents are detained for re-education, they'll say "hey, silly, you are a tease, we don't do any of that kind of thing any more, That's just, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOO last century"

But then, they'll, like, show me a, like, really awesome skyscraper, and I'll be, like... WOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Dudes who can, like, build really awesome stuff like that would never ruthlessly oppress their own population

So if I ask if i can see the torture chambers where the imprisoned dissidents are detained for re-education, they'll say "hey, silly, you are a tease, we don't do any of that kind of thing any more, That's just, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOO last century"

But then, they'll, like, show me a, like, really awesome skyscraper, and I'll be, like... WOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Dudes who can, like, build really awesome stuff like that would never ruthlessly oppress their own population

like i said go and see it then get back to me. Some of those disidents would bring china to its knees if they had there way, or do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea, well nether do the Chines government, so they band the cult. I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.

z 11 sorry for the delay .

This would seem to fit a manslaughter by unlawful act prosecution

Death must be result of an unlawful act the accused must have the necessary criminal state of mind for that unlawful act.

The act must be one that all sober and reasonable people would inevitably realize must subject the victim to at least the risk of some physical harm albeit not serious harm

Up to this point is a paraphrase of Archbold , what follows is my opinion and .
From the video and the inquest evidence the issue is firstly was there an assault or was the officer using reasonable force to achieve a lawful end. I've had my own settled view on that from the first footage and that has been reinforced by the inquest in particular the officers own evidence.

If there was an assault did death flow from that assault or the injury caused by it or was there an intervening event which renders the injury no more than part of the background history. That is where the original post mortem and subsequent ones through up a cloud of doubt that led to the Original CPS decision not to prosecute. There has been a tendency since the parental killing miscarriages of justice to avoid prosecutions where there are clear conflicts between pathologists or other experts. The inquest as an inquisitorial process has clearly aired that confusion and seems to have clearly eliminated the natural causes possibility.
While egg shell skulls are more relevant to the law of negligence the principle is the same I cant tie up an old lady rob her and then get off a homicide charge (murder or manslaughter) be arguing it’s her own fault for having a dodgy heart.

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea

But aren't they all just "Chinese"? They all look the same to me, to be honest

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea
But aren't they all just "Chinese"? They all look the same to me, to be honest

sorry i didn't make it very clear the Chines government made the cult Falun Gong illegal it teaches people that the races should be kept separate and all other nasty shit, so they band it, then they get shit of western people for it. I just dont get it

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea
But aren't they all just "Chinese"? They all look the same to me, to be honest

well they dont and i think thats a bit racist to me! im not saying ur racist just that it could be seen as racist!

I'm sorry, but if I'm a racist then so is Prince Phillip. And that's just crazy talk!!

Anyway.... this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

Anyway.... this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

crankboy, from your professional perspective...

Putting aside all other considerations and circumstances of this case, and looking at it purely from the adversarial nature of the English criminal legal system, which case would you feel you had a better chance of winning, prosecution or defence? (And also accepting that you only have access to what evidence is publicly available).

Crankboy - given the fact that he was a police officer attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace (and given the fact that there had been violence already, public order situation, etc.) then would not the fact that in his belief Tomlinson was obstructing the police come into play?

seems to me that, in a public order situation, reasonableness is a [u]very[/u] difficult area to judge, and spur of the moment belief, impression, difficulty of weighing exactly the appropriateness of an action, instinctivness of the action, and all sorts of factors are going to make that legality of the use of force argument really, really complex.

What's Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!

I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.

Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?

What's Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!

A question nobody else seems to have considered (apologies if I've missed it - skimmed a lot of the squabbling) - how can the plod get a fair trial given all the publicity? I mean you lot are deciding his guilt or innocence before the trial's even started.

Anyway.... this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

No, I think he means like Nick Clegg

oh, hang on, ....... as you were - I misread that

I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.
Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?

Not nearlly as many as we have kiled to get some free oil, also that has to be put in historical context it was at the hight of the cultural revolution. which was not a very good time for china in many ways. Howver both china and Tibet were ancient enemies how had been at war for Centuries etc. now compare that to iraqi its very diffrent, sevearl million have died in the past few years. Get over it the Western governments do evil things too.

different cult but same sort of thing, its evil and takes money of week people and its really racist.

Like the iDave Diet Foundation?

Thegreatape z11 , I think from the inquest reports unless something new comes up the causation defence is on very shaky ground and a jury would believe that the blow(s) caused the fall the fall caused internal bleeding the bleeding caused or contributed to death.
The more interesting argument will be around lawful/reasonable force on that, the video does the officer no favours the background of his conduct before his interaction with Tomlinson puts him in a difficult light but significantly read his evidence to the inquest (available on line) I have sat in court and listened to a defendant sink his own case when cross examined. Harwood will need to do a lot to gain the trust of a jury.

I forgot to issue a retraction earlier on previous threads on this topic i slagged off the officers around the incident for not stepping in or coming forward at the time. While obviously they did not step in and in part one can see why not they clearly did come forward at a very early stage which was the right thing to do and also in many ways brave even though i hope little bravery is now needed for an officer to speak up about his colleagues conduct.

Free oil? Have you seen the price of a cruise missile? Its truly shocking! You could get a bike for that!!!!

Binners that is quite a distateful thing you said. The chinese police can tell the difference or else they would just be indiscrimanantly shooting their own citizens when there is a protest ...oh hold on a minute ❗
As for tom Cruise are you suggesting he is hiding something in his closet ?

I'm still waiting for some actual evidence of the huge cover-up by the police? Other than a slightly retarded HOME OFFICE pathologist doing a shoddy job on the first PM? If you read the IPCC report and the coroners report you'd see that the police gathered huge amounts of evidence and information. How else do you think the CPS are in a position to charge him?

Now did anyone hear that story on the radio about Elvis shagging JFK at Roswell?

given the fact that he was a police officer [b]attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace [/b]

Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way.

Send the killer down. Maximum sentence. And bring all those who lied to protect him to justice too.

We, as a society, cannot afford to have a police force which is seen to get away time after time with murder and unlawful killing of innocent people, as well as being seen as a corrupt and deeply flawed institution. Otherwise the whole institution of Law and Order is undermined and lacking in moral and social responsibility.

ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw - this place hasn't been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You're just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you.

I bet he isn't as good a fighter as lansera though?

Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way

are these same group of legal experts that believe we should not be able to read things about losers in the news papers. The law is a ass, that guy was clearly getting in the way!

ernie_lynch - Member
ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw - this place hasn't been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You're just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you

"that guy was clearly getting in the way!" i know you believe that swallowing the Chinese state propaganda whole counts as "thinking for yourself" but you really are a bit off on your own on that one. Not one of the officers on scene aside from Harwood thought Tomlinson was getting in the way .

well the copper admitted he did not see him as a threat. As for getting in the way he was trying to get home which as far as I know is not actually illegal. If he was hampering a copper carrying out his duties he could have arrested him ...odd the copper did not do this ..probably wanted to stay away from his van eh.
Whilst slagging off the west [ with some merit] this is not actually a defence of China's action but your defence seems to be entirely I went there and it were right nice. I need a little more convincing.

BTW, Beijing is a city in China, it's not China. What you saw may well not be representative...

And please, please try and use English in your posts. I'm struggling with the Chinglish you presumably picked up during your extensive travels in China.

ilovemygears - Member

thanks

No no .......thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

No really mate, I'm gobsmacked ...... even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn't lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China......well done geezer 😀

And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

Hang on, weren't you proudly describing yourself as a 'tankie' the other day - doesn't that mean those that supported sending in the tanks to Hungary to crush dissidents?

no he was saying that was the insult used against him not that he really was one. He sia dhe liked the term though iirc.

You can call me a tankie of you want grum .......I don't mind* 8)

btw I'm not going to get dragged into an argument about China or Hungry on a thread about Ian Tomlinson.

EDIT : * But don't ever call me a Trot !

trot trot clippity clop

No no .......thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

No really mate, I'm gobsmacked ...... even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn't lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China......well done geezer

marx said democracy was a bourgeoisie dictatorship. There not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries.

No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat - there's nothing wrong with democracy.

And if you really ain't trolling, then you've got a seriously ****ed-up head coming out with "not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries". I can't be arsed to comment more than that.

No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat - there's nothing wrong with democracy.

And if you really ain't trolling, then you've got a seriously ****ed-up head coming out with "not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries". I can't be arsed to comment more than that

lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers. The west does propaganda as well you know.

So what was Chairman Mao then?

Elfinsafety - Member
So what was Chairman Mao then?

A guy with a swimming pool 🙂

ilovemygears - Member

lol i read Engels

You're not the full ticket are you mate ?

ernie_lynch - Member
ilovemygears - Member
lol i read Engels

You're not the full ticket are you mate ?

this is the internet you're taking it all very seriously ant you.

Christ what a load of utter PISH!!!!

This was about a cop who appears very much on the face of it to have over stepped the Mark by some degree, lost the rag and pushed a guy over, without any real justification. Guy has then sadly died.

Cop should face the criminal justice system and let a court decide his culpability. An earlier resolution to this might have helped preserve the reputation of the met a bit better?

But...

How the he'll did all this Chinese stuff start? And what in the hell raised the racism aspect?

Fer cry in out loud get a grip!

Edit, been watching this one for a bit, been trying so hard not to bite, but what the hell. Any posts by me is usually the kiss of death for the topic anyway 😥

Nickquinn293, not this time mate.

lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers.

I hear Libya is nice at this time of year.

Someone did mention they've had a spot of bother there of late. But, at the end of the day, that's probably just crap spouted by the western propaganda machine. I'm going to go and have a look for myself

I dont think we take it that serious but is it to much to ask that what you say is at least based on either reality or logic?

JY I said earlier that hjis grasp of logic was poor and he was an effing prick. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. Don't give him anymore oxygen, I suggest just insulting the moron until he goes away.

Try Syria, lots of local colour

Ps crank boy, thanks, feel a bit less paranoid now!

No i dont read the Daily Mail or the Guardian, i think for my self.

Not much evidence of it, TBH. Anyone who seriously suggests China as a role model for law and order can most charitably be described as "naive".

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/search?q=china+execution&target=guardian ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/search?q=china+execution&target=guardian[/url]

lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers.

has it escaped your notice that the nice place China is in fact communist?
I dont know why I replied you seem perfectly capable of beating your own argument without any help
I dont think we take it that serious but is it to much to ask that what you say is at least based on either reality or logic?

did i ever say i was a communist? nope i did not. China is a communist country, which was put me off, but after seeing it i thought very differently. Thats the point i was making. That you should not believe what you see in news papers etc but instead what you have experienced for you self. China may be a communist country but not in the Western seance. like i said go see for ur self. I still think both Engels and Marx were full of shit, but it does not stop china being a good country. Yet again the White western man thinks he has the god given right to tell people on the other side of the world how to live. Ever noticed the Chines never tell us how to run our country, but we feel we have the right to tell them how to run theirs. What right in hell do we have to force our morals on people that live on the other side of the world. You just modern day missionary's, determined to force you 'superior' views on people in other cultures. i couldn't give a **** what lower middle class guardian readers think of me.

You do realise that if you lived in your beloved China, you wouldn't be allowed to [s]post[/s]hold the kind of views about the regime as you have about our evil western regimes.

MSP - Member
You do realise that if you lived in your beloved China, you wouldn't be allowed to posthold the kind of views about the regime as you have about our evil western regimes.

we as it is their country that is their right!

no its not their right, they don't get to choose or even debate it.

did i ever say i was a communist? nope i did not

China may be a communist country but not in the Western seance.

Ever noticed the Chines never tell us how to run our country,

but we feel we have the right to tell them how to run theirs.

What right in hell do we have to force our morals on people that live on the other side of the world.

You just modern day missionary's, determined to force you 'superior' views on people in other cultures.

Because universal human rights are universal

They used to say that about Christianity.

[img] [/img]

.... and studios. Don't forget studios.

Cultural Imperialism is big on the single track forums ant it, if it ant how to ride youre bike or what frame material to use its how people in other countries should behave and believe.

and suffrage. No.... erm.... hang on a minute. No. sorry. That doesn't really work, does it?. Actually, it might do if you restructured the sentence slightly

Anyway, sorry. Carry on...... you were saying?

Ooooooooooo look what I've found! You'll like this

Yep you slag of China and then buy their stuff, the computer you are using is most likely made in china, so i think if you are so concerned about the human rights in China you should throw it away as a demonstration of you contempt for the system. If you buy an apple computer you are supporting the Chines government, o the irony.

Do they make the irony too then? Or was that a typo? I know they make irons. Is that what you meant?

Because universal human rights are universal

Nothing universal about them.

5thElefant - Member
Because universal human rights are universal

They're not. Rights are granted by those who hold power.
Nothing universal about them.

At last some one with a brain.

[i]Because universal human rights are universal[/i]

They're not. Rights are granted by those who hold power.

Universal human rights are what you have by virtue of being born. They don't depend on anybody else.

Of course opinions may differ on what constitutes a universal right, for example, the Chinese may not consider is a universal right to hold an unpopular view, or to keep your organs on the inside of your body and not given to a person rich enough to pay for them, etc etc etc.

Which irons did you mean though? These:

[img] [/img]

or these:

[img] [/img]

I think they make both. But I couldn't be certain

Universal human rights are what you have by virtue of being born. They don't depend on anybody else.

Of course opinions may differ on what constitutes a universal right, for example, the Chinese may not consider is a universal right to hold an unpopular view, or to keep your organs on the inside of your body and not given to a person rich enough to pay for them, etc etc etc.

Yet its the USA that leads the world in imprisonment per capita . O yes the land of the free.

Universal human rights are what you have by virtue of being born. They don't depend on anybody else.

Of course opinions may differ on what constitutes a universal right, for example, the Chinese may not consider is a universal right to hold an unpopular view, or to keep your organs on the inside of your body and not given to a person rich enough to pay for them, etc etc etc

It's not real.

Rights are what are granted to you by those that hold power over you.

Yet its the USA that leads the world in imprisonment per capita

That'll be because of their 'right' to bear arms. If we all had guns in this country, 80% of the adult population would be in prison at any one time. This would be due to shooting someone outside the kebab house at 3 in the morning cos they looked at your bird. Or slightly earlier when they called your pint a puff.

Or maybe its because the Americans routinely imprison people who's opinions they don't much care for? I don't know how the prison population compares to China. I'm having difficulty finding the exact statistics. Can't think why. Normally they're such an open and accessible lot

Anyway... about these irons.....

They don't depend on anybody else

Universal human rights are what you have by virtue of being born

The concept of Universal Human Rights as something everyone has is a joke. You only have to look at guantanamo bay to realise this.

Yet its the USA that leads the world in imprisonment per capita. O yes the land of the free

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe_percap-crime-executions-per-capita

Hmm not according to a quick google it doesnt...

China -- the world’s top executioner -- classifies the death penalty as a state secret. As the world and Olympic guests are left guessing, only the Chinese authorities know exactly how many people have been killed with state authorization.

From http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/11957/

Amnesty seem to usually know of what they speak.

But either way ILG you come across as a monumental Charlie Uniform November Kilo and I usually do not stoop as low as to the futility of bothering to insult someone on the internerds.

one_happy_hippy - Member
Yet its the USA that leads the world in imprisonment per capita. O yes the land of the free
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe_percap-crime-executions-per-capita

Hmm not according to a quick google it doesnt...

China -- the world’s top executioner -- classifies the death penalty as a state secret. As the world and Olympic guests are left guessing, only the Chinese authorities know exactly how many people have been killed with state authorization.
From http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/11957/ /p>

Amnesty seem to usually know of what they speak.

But either way ILG you come across as a monumental Charlie Uniform November Kilo and I usually do not stoop as low as to the futility of bothering to insult someone one the internerds.

well i do! go find a lorry and get youre head wedged under one of its wheels. How the Chines run their own country ant any thing to do with you.
No doubt another Socialist hippy with a 4 grand bike.

Are you by any chance the Chinese cultural attache?

And why won't you answer the question about the irons? What are you trying to hide? I think we should be told!

Are you by any chance the Chinese cultural attache?

lol

How the Chines run their own country ant any thing to do with you.

Who do you suppose is "running China"? The mass of Chinese citizens? Or a few powerful guys at the top?

The concept of Universal Human Rights as something everyone has is a joke. You only have to look at guantanamo bay to realise this.

Everyone has rights. Whether those rights are respected or not is another matter.

Everyone has rights. Whether those rights are respected or not is another matter.

Binners i think he may mean the irons the chinese police use to beat you with. Of course he cant really talk about that openly as next time he visits they may not be a nice to him

How the Chines run their own country ant any thing to do with you.

I never said it did and I haven't suggested that the 'west' is any better. I'm merely pointing out your mistakes and inaccuracies.

No doubt another Socialist hippy with a 4 grand bike

Actually I'd consider myself a liberal with a 6.5k bike, a 3k bike and a 2k bike but I don't see what bearing the value of my possessions has on this.

As an aside I know a number of people who have lived and worked in China for up to a decade and I can assure you that from their experiences the image portrayed within metropolitan China is not that which is experienced by most of the indigenous population within rural China.

How the Chines run their own country ant any thing to do with you.
Who do you suppose is "running China"? The mass of Chinese citizens? Or a few powerful guys at the top?