[Closed] Tomlinson's killer to face trial

Yes there will be a report in about 2035 ish where someone will say sorry for something IMHO.

Erm.... no is the simple answer.

The Met have got bigger fish to fry at the moment. Like trying to cover for the News International hacks who were no doubt paying them huge kick-backs for a blind eye being turned to industrial scale phone hacking.

I'm afraid a dead bystander is trivial irrelevance compared to the arse-covering exercise we're about to see taking shape over this issue. I reckon this will go right the way to the top

TBF this isn't a problem which affects only the Met. In our society there is a general presumption that when things go well the people at the top of an organisation should take all the credit, and often great fat bonuses that go with it. And yet when things go wrong, it has absolutely nothing to do with them. "The buck stops here" is not a British expression...........passing the buck is.

Itd great news for Tomlinsons family not so great for the cop that did the shoving.

Binners is on the money, lets hope Andy Coulson ends up in court and Cameron makes an apology for standing by the lieing shite.

"But officer, why do you keep striking me?"

"Because it means promotion. Two more blows, I'll be a sergeant and you'll be unconscious".

Edit to my previous post - there is of course one glaring exception of a head at the very top rolling. Director-General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, was sacked, for as we now know, the BBC telling the truth, ie, the Iraq dossier was "sexed up". He was however the only person to lose their job because of the ****-up which was the Iraq War, even Tony Blair managed to hold to his job.

Sacked for telling the truth eh? Where's the fun in that then?

I spose David Kelly got sacked for the same thing really.

whilst it may seem cut and dried. the guy died sometime after the 'push' we have no idea what may or may not have happened to him prior to or before the 'push'
the cop was bang out of order he did nothing to warrent been pushed over. But having sat on a jury i always ask myself.. is it proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the 'push' significantly contributed to his death? would you condemn the copper to the gallows if you were on the jury from what we know now.. i could nt in all honesty.

as much as i think the police are a bunch of bullies that have been way too heavy handed in recent demos i don't think the individual copper should get done personally. his employer should take the hit vicariously. no doubt the cop is a nasty bully but even he probably thought he was doing his job, was tired, stressed, hungary, fed up etc. someone else trained him, selected him for duty, was leading / managing him. The Met should be in court not the individual.

'hung out to dry' is a fair description.

@hh45: I agree the met has a lot to answer for. But I rarely buy the line that "I was asked to do bad things, therefore I am not responsible for doing them". Everyone in society should be able to account for their actions in whatever role the possess.

I completely agree with you hh45 except this : [i]"was tired, stressed, hungary, fed up etc. someone else trained him, selected him for duty"[/i]. I assume you are unaware that PC Harwood was a van driver on that day. It would appear that he was desperate for a bit of action, and according to the inquest he had strayed from his post without the knowledge of his supervisor. If he was tired he could have been having a kip in his van.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/30/tomlinson-inquest-policeman-attack-driver ]Tomlinson inquest: policeman accused of attack was van driver who had moved[/url]

Couldn't agree more. Seeing the footage of him leading up to the incident, he appeared to think he was 'missing out on the fun'. His orders were, apparently, to stay with the van. Well... with being there as a van driver, there's a certain logic to that. So what's he doing marauding around on his own, unattached to any 'unit', in full riot gear, clobbering people with his baton? We're not taling about Libya here? Its London, with a few minor scuffles taking place FFS!!

Much as i agree that his orders from his superiors need to be taken into consideration; his orders were to drive a van. Full stop. and I'm sure that's exactly what the Met will be all too keen to point out in court, now they have made the decision to 'hang him out to dry'

Yup, that blows that (rather tired) excuse completely out of the water in this case. He was also caught out lying about his reasons for not being with the van, so no question that he knew he'd done wrong. People try to say "He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time" and you know what, he really really was.

would you condemn the copper to the gallows if you were on the jury from what we know now.. i could nt in all honesty

Throw the book at him. Lock him up for the maximum time possible. Stick him in a prison with other killers, see how he likes being pushed around.

And sack all those who were involved in the attempted cover up.

Sposed to be public servants upholding Law and Order. Scum.

'Zero tolerance' eh Elfie ?

You're a hard but fair man.

Elfinsafety has been reading his secret copy of The Daily Mail again.

Well, if they 'have to apply the letter of the law' over a simple traffic infringement for example riding through a red light, I expect them [b]all[/b] to be absolutely lily-white and utterly innocent of all crime themselves.

So yep, zero-tolerance. 🙂

Elfinsafety has been reading

Effin can't read.

Yes I can I get Razzle every month!

I like the stories.

Elfinsafety has been reading his secret copy of The Daily Mail again

I think, that left to that esteemed organ, the copper would be encouraged to kill more horrid proles, and Fred would presently be detained under anti-terrorism legislation for an indefinite period. Never to be seen again

Not at all binners, the Daily Mail talks of a "cover-up" and of the "fury" at the earlier announcement that PC Harwood would escape charges :

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1296793/G20-policeman-escapes-charges-death-Ian-Tomlinson-protests.html ]'Cover-up' storm over G20 death: Fury as DPP rules policeman who hit news vendor won't be charged[/url]

You'd be surprised, the Daily Mail is actually often quite liberal in comparison to some of the right-wing ranters on here.

You want to see what Razzle has to say on the matter. 😯

You want to see what Razzle has to say on the matter

Is that the article they did on how to use your baton safely?

You want to see what Razzle has to say on the matter

That'll be the detailed of analysis of why the copper was so tired. Since early morning, he'd been hard at work with his truncheon in the back of the van with a series of saucy WPCs in [i]and out[/i] of uniform, followed by some terrific radical totty who protested [i]extremely loudly[/i] when he took down their particulars, before succumbing to some serious interrogation and a special type of [u]gagging[/u] order. And as for the sexy hack seeking some [i]in depth[/i] coverage...... well that's a story for another day.

life has thought me many things, one of them is the police are actually quite hard and to get the **** out of there way. He was a piss head that got in the way. end of story. we need the police to be hard fukers, with guns and shit, then they could control the chav problem, gansta problem etc. Been to china for a few mounts not so long ago, no chav problem there no pissed up ****s. Because the police would beat ur head in with iron bar if you did. Needles to say i felt much safer there, left some money in a cash machine and some guy chased me down the street to give it to me. No i dont read the Daily Mail or the Guardian, i think for my self.

Waste of time and money, they've given in to public pressure, but having read the previous CPS report, I think I could defend him, the evidence is so full of holes.

If he gets a fair trial (not sure how likely that is based on the coverage its already recieved) and a decent lawyer he'll get found not guilty, and they'll be another outcry and claims of a cover up.

He was a piss head that got in the way. end of story

I hope you are a troll or else you have theat excellent mix of stupidty and alack of comapssion. i hope [only alittle bit mind]you never get killed walking home from work by the same police you support to **** whomever they feel like

totalshell - Member

whilst it may seem cut and dried. the guy died sometime after the 'push' we have no idea what may or may not have happened to him prior to or before the 'push'

I think you'll find an inquest has already established how he died and has a pretty detailed account of what he did up to that point. The inquest established that he was killed by the actions of PC harwood. [url= http://www.tomlinsoninquest.org.uk/tomlinson/ ]verdict of tomlinson inquest[/url]
It's now a trial to see if PC Harwoods actions were deliberate and malicous/careless or if he was just doing his duty.

Well, if they 'have to apply the letter of the law' over a simple traffic infringement for example riding through a red light

Whilst I don't agree in full with some of the comments above I do think that prosecuting the police officer for pushing someone over is completly rediculous.

The guy died because he was an alcoholic and had internal organs made of glass. If he'd farted hard enough he would have probably killed himself.

I once got pushed over by a kid in my local wood because I was being a pain in the ass. These things happen.

I know it is the done thing on here to hate the law, but all that happened was he got pushed over for being a pain in the ass and not doing what he was told.

The guy died because he was an alcoholic and had internal organs made of glass. If he'd farted hard enough he would have probably killed himself.

As I said above I think you'll find the coroners court disagrees with you.

but all that happened was he got pushed over for being a pain in the ass and not doing what he was told.

Thats what i dont get about the liberal left wing, there not very tolerant to any ideas apart from there own.

Like the left wing student that cant see the irony in wanting to ban right wing party's such as the BNP. Liberal as long as you share there belifes if not you must be stupid or evil. It makes me lol Both left and right are retarded

The guy died because he was an alcoholic and had internal organs made of glass. If he'd farted hard enough he would have probably killed himself.

I just spat my drink all over my keyboard! Genius summary there LHS 😆

life has thought me many things

The ability to use English properly not being one of them, obviously...

I know it is the done thing on here to hate the law

Actually I think it's quite the opposite; people are opposed to those who break the Law, are corrupt and who lie to protect others who transgress.

but all that happened was he got pushed over for being a pain in the ass and not doing what he was told.

he was trapped by the kettling operation and unable to leave to go home from his place of work. Do you consider wanting to go home after work being a pain in the ass?
quote]No im not a troll, unless by troll you mean i dont think like you do. Actually I meant no one could be as stupid as think China was an excellent role model for how policing and the state should impact on citizen lifes.
Thats what i dont get about the liberal left wing, there not very tolerant to any ideas apart from there own.

I should tolerate someone who thinks the police should routinely thump citizens? Why exactly should I be turning a blind eye to this? I have no issue with your right to hold this view but you cannot expect me to like it nor let it go unchallenged.
Like the left wing student that cant see the irony in wanting to ban right wing party's such as the BNP. Liberal as long as you share there belifes if not you must be stupid or evil. It makes me lol Both left and right are retarded

You are aware that the state you hold up as a model is the only one banning other parties and imprisoning people for their views. No one else has suggested this on this thread except you and then you mock everyone else as retatarded
And be fair as well ...you appear to be both stupid and evil

So basicly as i dont agrea with ur views i must be a bad person. That makes me lol it really does. I dont think any party should be band, but history has shown both left and right are just as evil so i was simply pointing out the ironly of so called libairas wanting to ban other partys they dont like. Meaning their fascists s not liberals as a true liberal wouldn't want to ban any thing. Sir you are a retard!

Edit: i want to live in a country were crime does not pay. I want to live in a country that uses gangsters for target practice, and were granny's can go down the street with out getting mugged, and if that means some little shit bags get beaten to death so be it.

I'm forever pointing out ironly of so called libairas as well. I'm a panelist on Gardeners Question Time

Ooh! Reader's Wives Special out today! 😀

"Waste of time and money, they've given in to public pressure, but having read the previous CPS report, I think I could defend him, the evidence is so full of holes"
not really followed the case or understood the issues have you?

" Been to china for a few mounts not so long ago, no chav problem there no pissed up ****. Because the police would beat ur head in with iron bar if you did. Needles to say i felt much safer there, left some money in a cash machine and some guy chased me down the street to give it to me. No i dont read the Daily Mail or the Guardian, i think for my self."
In China both the criminals and law abiding majority fear the police the criminals fear having to pay bribes and fear being beaten up or killed and the law abiding majority fear being beaten up killed or deprived of their homes on a political whim. I'm sure as a westerner with money and freedom to leave you felt safe and protected but you might want to consider how real people living under that system before you laud it.

In China both the criminals and law abiding majority fear the police the criminals fear having to pay bribes and fear being beaten up or killed and the law abiding majority fear being beaten up killed or deprived of their homes on a political whim. I'm sure as a westerner with money and freedom to leave you felt safe and protected but you might want to consider how real people living under that system before you laud it.

I spent all my time in Beijing i can only say what i saw. Im not saying that doesn't happen, im just stating my own experiences.
Also there is a lot of anti china propaganda in western news papers such as the Guardian and dailmail. Most of it is shit!

Do you people really believe the things you say about the police?

Missing out on the fun, routinely thumping passers by etc. These aren't the actions of the policemen I know. I like Coppers it's a job I'd not do and one that needs doing, mistakes are made and every large workforce has it's bad eggs but FFS.

i want to know what a libairas is!

🙂

libertarian Ass?

i want to know what a libairas is!

not really followed the case or understood the issues have you?

What makes you say that? Have a point you disagree with or just generally disagree?

I've read the CPS report that says there wasn't enough evidence to charge him the first time round as all the post mortems were flawed, meaning there's no solid evidence that it was the push that killed him.

every large workforce has it's bad eggs

That's clearly nonsense. What about the catholic church. That's a worldwide organisation of millions of priests. Are you telling me that a significant minority of them have been up to no good? And the people at the top would react by trying to cover it up? Are you? Seriously?

Oh... hang on a minute......

ah ok, I was going for a portuguese library, please continue to illuminate us

Should be able to get a prosecution for assault. Manslaughter? Not if he has a decent brief. IMO.

I would like to see incidents like this dealt with as corporate manslaughter - I want to see the senior officers in dock as well. someone recruited him, trained him, briefed him etc. They are culpable as well.

I would like to see incidents like this dealt with as corporate manslaughter - I want to see the senior officers in dock as well. someone recruited him, trained him, briefed him etc. They are culpable as well.

If you die from falling over then some thing must have already been wronge with him, he wouldnt have been pushed if he did what he was told, hence his problem.

You seem to be doing the 'unquestioning' thing rather well. Carry on. Any views on the holocaust? Personally, I never saw that happen. Therefore .....

[i]"Waste of time and money, they've given in to public pressure, but having read the previous CPS report, I think I could defend him, the evidence is so full of holes"[/i]
not really followed the case or understood the issues have you?

Crankboy, would be really interesting to hear a professional opinion here on the possible defences...

Seems to me that the eggshell skull rule would apply, meaning that he'd be liable for manslaughter, but only if:
i) the injury directly attributed to his death, and
ii) the original use of violence in pushing him over was in fact illegal

on i) I'm seems to me that "beyond reasonable doubt" is going to be difficult, given the initial post mortem results, and the likely evidence of the person who actually PM'd the body, who seemed fairly adamant that the volume of blood was not consistent with him bleeding out.

on ii) I think thats going to be a very complex argument over legality on whether his use of force (a single push) was reasonable, given his belief at the time, his duty on the day, as a police officer, to keep the peace, the reluctance of tomlinson to move on, the fact he was p*ssed (would a sober person have fallen over) and a myriad of arguments that the jury are likely to be out of the room for.

comments?

demJeremy - Member

Should be able to get a prosecution for assault. Manslaughter? Not if he has a decent brief. IMO

If you die from falling over then some thing must have already been wronge with him, he wouldnt have been pushed if he did what he was told, hence his problem.

Does that apply to the many cases where someone has been assaulted on the street and in being pushed over has cracked their skull open on the kerb and subsequently died.

Regardless of whether he had pre-existing conditions, if the the push caused his death then its manslaughter. The jury will be deciding whether that push was justified. If it was, so be it, if it was then he the PC committed manslaughter. As simple as.

If you watch the video he's moving away and pushed from behind. (28secs)

Im not sure what else you would want him to be doing other than moving away from the police?

binners - Member
You seem to be doing the 'unquestioning' thing rather well. Carry on. Any views on the holocaust? Personally, I never saw that happen. Therefore .....

Godwins law doesnt apply on stw, threads go on for ages. Are you looking for an excuse to leave?

So basicly as i dont agrea with ur views i must be a bad person.

That makes me lol it really does. I dont think any party should be band, but history has shown both left and right are just as evil so i was simply pointing out the ironly of so called libairas wanting to ban other partys they dont like. Meaning their fascists s not liberals as a true liberal wouldn't want to ban any thing. Sir you are a retard!

Edit: i want to live in a country were crime does not pay. I want to live in a country that uses gangsters for target practice, and were granny's can go down the street with out getting mugged, and if that means some little shit bags get beaten to death so be it.

Also there is a lot of anti china propaganda in western news papers such as the Guardian and dailmail. Most of it is shit!

I oppose you because you seem to think the solution to the problem is state sanctioned brutality and you use china as an a example of this ideal state. If you could perhaps better explain why this is a good thing we may be able to have a debate. ranting about things no one but you [ and the state you cite as an example]

just watched the video, he had his hands in his pocks, he could have moved a bit faster, he hardly touched him. He was a alcoholic that was near death any way, if he wasn't a alcoholic the fall wouldn't have killed him.

[img] [/img]

toys19 - Member

demJeremy - Member

Should be able to get a prosecution for assault. Manslaughter? Not if he has a decent brief. IMO

Funny Kier Starmer disagree's with you, I'd love to see you discuss it with him. WTF makes you think you know more about it than he does? He said there was a realistic prospect of a conviction? What immense legal knowledge do you have that trumps the DPP?

I don't know more about it than him. Just my opinion based on the fact that there is a clear avenue for the defence to attack - different PMs giving different cause of death = doubt. = no conviction. That was the original CPS position.

He was a alcoholic that was near death any way, if he wasn't a alcoholic the fall wouldn't have killed him.

If you accept the fall killed him then if someone pushed him on purpose thats manslughter.

If you accept that the fall killed him then if he hadn't been pushed he would still be here today. Therefore unlawful killing.

Your command of logic is poor. I don't think you are a troll, just an effing prick.

You're clearly not familiar with the ettiquette around here dear boy. Threads go on indefinitely and once you're onto the second page, Hitler has to be invoked. We're getting close to the point where the word racist has to be used. Do you want to do it? Or shall I?

Hey... I don't make the rules

so the strong view you have before has not been altered by voiewing the incident whata surprise
I think everyone knows he was an alcoholic and that this may have contributed to his death. However it seems clear that however slowly he moved and however much he drank had he not been pushed none of the subsequent events would have occured. It is like blaiming a mugging victim for being rich and running away too slowly.

different PMs giving different cause of death = doubt. = no conviction. That was the original CPS position.

You cannot have been following the inquest then, because a clear majority of the docs gave a clear cause of death.
That is why the DPP has changed his position.

It is like blaiming a mugging victim for being rich and running away too slowly.

Or a rape victim for they way they dressed.

Godwins law doesnt apply on stw, threads go on for ages. Are you looking for an excuse to leave?

Nope

Also im not a liberal or any other kind of political sheep, i believe a wide range of things from all aspects of political doctrine. Have you ever been to china and seen it for you're self just out of interest? It wasn't the place i expected it to be.

Its still an avenue to attack that throws doubt on the cause of death.

We are all second guessing the jury tho befoe they have heard any evidence

He was a alcoholic that was near death any way

So just because some one has a debilitating addiction his life doesnt matter? Ok his family life and back story were not a fairy tale, but he was employed and not just living on benefits / disability due to his addiction.

As for the shove the PC clearly drops a shoulder and steps in to it with his weight. From behind when not expecting it it's unsuprising that he went down.

if he wasn't a alcoholic the fall wouldn't have killed him

So if he'd merely had a congenital heart defect or a similar condition that can lead to death from a simple fall, would it still be his fault or would it suddenly become the PCs?

It wasn't the place i expected it to be.

maybe you actually landed in scotland?

Its still an avenue to attack that throws doubt on the cause of death.

No one is arguing that, but its a lot less certain than your first statement. I'll accept my win gratefully. 😆

Have you ever been to china and seen it for you're self just out of interest? It wasn't the place i expected it to be.

Did the members of the communist sing Carpenters songs on street corners, while stroking ickle fwuffy kittens?

He was a alcoholic that was near death any way, if he wasn't a alcoholic the fall wouldn't have killed him.
If you accept the fall killed him then if someone pushed him on purpose thats manslughter.

If you accept that the fall killed him then if he hadn't been pushed he would still be here today. Therefore unlawful killing.

Your command of logic is poor. I don't think you are a troll, just an effing prick.

To me he looked like he was going slow on deliberative, secondly go fall under a lorry! .

Have you ever been to china and seen it for you're self just out of interest? It wasn't the place i expected it to be.
Did the members of the communist sing Carpenters songs on street corners, while stroking ickle fwuffy kittens?

Nope in many ways it has become developed than this country, its the fastest developing country in human history, its amazing!

ilovemygears - he might have been however it makes no odds.

two main things to be considered:

Was the push legal, ie was it reasonable force?
Did the push led to his death?

If the answers are no and yes then its manslaughter

Oh ok. I stand corrected. If it looks ok, then it must be.

Just one question.... do you believe in Father Christmas?

ilovemygears - he might have been however it makes no odds.

two main things to be considered:

Was the push legal, ie was it reasonable force?
Did the push led to his death?

If the answers are no and yes then its manslaughter

In my view the answer the the first question in 'YES'

yes everyohne is a sheep except you who is free ....saddly for you it is free of coherent or logically sustainable positions.
China is many things and one of those is a repressive regime however impressed/blind you were when you visited.

Oh ok. I stand corrected. If it looks ok, then it must be.

Just one question.... do you believe in Father Christmas?

The tooth fairy?

two main things to be considered:

Was the push legal, ie was it reasonable force?
Did the push led to his death?

agreed TJ - as I've said above though, I don't think either of those arguments are going to be simple, the legality of the push will be very technical legal argument - and I'm inclined to think that it could very well have been permissible use of force.