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enlightenment
I think it is she who would like to think is enlightened. Being of a religious bent suggests to me somone who is inclined to believe the unverifiable, illogical, and just plain wrong.
She also said Watson didn't offer any ideas on ways forward. He has offered plenty.
But you know, that was just the first paragraph.
Just my opinion, but it's as good as hers.
To be fair to her, that article does give a fascinating insight into the paranoid delusional worldview of the tinfoil hat wearers in the Corbynite bunker
Well I see your overlord Mr Watson is yet again trying to fiddle with procedure by demanding info from Jenny Formby.
Cancer patient by the way.
But yeah you keep on bobbing on about all the other vapour.
This right wing bunk head keeps confusing what is intereference in party policy. Depending what day it is. Or what Twitter poll he's conducting.
If we're Corbynites you must be ****sons.
She also said Watson didn’t offer any ideas on ways forward.
He's only interested in obstruction.
So she's right.
So these are the people Tom Watson is so anxious to support:
The partisan tone was set from the opening shot. A young woman whose name was not revealed tearfully claimed to have been abused with antisemitic taunts at a Labour Party conference.
The decision not to disclose their interviewee’s identity is understandable in the circumstances. It would have discredited the whole narrative Panorama was trying so hard to build.
The woman’s name is Ella Rose, a senior official in the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), an organisation representing Jewish and non-Jewish members of Labour at the forefront of attacks on Corbyn. Rose has a secret past too: she once worked at the Israeli embassy in London.
Yup - these people want to make Labour less anti isreal so the antisemitism is the attack line. Of course there will be some in a group of people that large and it needs to be dealt with - but its being blown right out of proportion because of Corbyns support for fairness for palestinians
Compere this to the treatment of outright racists in the Tory party - one of whom is going to end up leader. Read what
Warsi has had to say about islamophobia in the torty party and look at the silence in the media
I don't disagree with anything in the previous post (whether pro Israel equals anti Palestinian is moot, though pro the current govt certainly is. But the rw media are always going to find a stick to beat labour with whilst letting Tories off the hook. It's the utter ineptitude of Corbyn and his ites in handling this (kicking out them as needs kicking/basic media strategy) that dismays. (I'm no Watson fan fwiw. Remaining heavyweights are on the back benches.)
the Lib Dems have only existed for about 30 years
Errrr... That's not strictly true is it?
The current iteration of the party may be about 33 years old... But the liberal party has existed in some form or other for about 300 years.
Of course, Palestine is the number one issue for the electorate of the UK.
That's why it's so important to focus on it.
CFH - so you think labour should become pro isreal / anti palestine just to please the right wing press?
Labour are not focussing on it at all - its being used a stick to beat them with
Then say it. No one would condemn the labour party for speaking up against oppression. Find the language to expose it for what it is, take the initiative. Or say nothing and let dacre et al fill the vacuum, which is what Corbyn is doing.
Read what Warsi has had to say about islamophobia in the torty party and look at the silence in the media
That is because the media is as best Tory and and worst islamophobic so will remain silent on it for one or both reasons.
so you think labour should become pro isreal / anti palestine
One can very easily be pro Palestinian without being anti Semitic. they aren't two sides of the same coin as your post seems to suggest you think they are.
No - the point is that being pro palestinian / critising isreal is painted as antisemetic deliberately to conflate the two. Corbyn is being hounded as antisemetic deliberately because of his support for palestinians.
Where is Corbyn? They keep Boris out of interviews because of all the shit that falls out of his mouth when he opens it. What's Corbyn's excuse? He could be all over the media putting this thing to bed, and making capital on the disgraceful betrayal of darroch on this government's watch, to boot. Where the hell is he?
critising isreal is painted as antisemetic
This is a the hole that folk on the left sometimes all into when discussing this issue. Just for funz, try to work out why what you've written could be viewed as anti Semitic.
Where is Corbyn?
You see, comrade, you're falling into the Blairite trap of failing to recognise the new politics. Jeremy isn't a traditional leader of the opposition, as such. Think of him as a sort of omnipotent abstract concept. A form of deity, personifying all that is good and honest and proper about human values. Not a god, per se, but quite god-esque
As such, he cannot demean himself with the day-to-day policies of yesteryear like interaction with the media, as they all simply misrepresent his words and plot against him.
Better to float above the fray. Leave the hurly burly to lesser, mere mortals
Courgette?
I'm a regular Lib-Dem voter, so my thoughts...
JC is unelectable and useless.
Tom Watson is between a rock and a hard place, but trying his best for the Labour Party and to keep them electable to those that haven't been brainwashed by JC/Momentum doctrine.
Kier Starmer and Andy Burnham I'd vote for if it meant getting the Tories out.
^^^^^^ what he said ^^^^^^^
As such, he cannot demean himself with the day-to-day policies of yesteryear like interaction with the media, as they all simply misrepresent his words and plot against him.
Wow, you have written something I agree with although not in the way you mean't. You also missed a Monty Python picture so minus points for that.
Corbyn is being hounded as antisemetic deliberately because of his support for palestinians.
I'm not sure that including a Zionist conspiracy theory in the body of a post attempting to debunk accusations of anti-semitism is a good idea. 😀
Aaaaanyway, back onto Watson: Formby has replied to his letter. Robust stuff, and I'm glad of it too.
https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1149414206174846976
Don't wish to be harsh, but if she is seriously ill, then she should perhaps take a break from the job to recover, with my & everybody's best wishes. If she is still fit enough to fill the role then why mention it?
Don’t wish to be harsh, but if she is seriously ill, then she should perhaps take a break from the job to recover, with my & everybody’s best wishes. If she is still fit enough to fill the role then why mention it?
I don't think she did mention it.
Said she couldn't retort publicly as she was undergoing chemo.
Errrr… That’s not strictly true is it?
The current iteration of the party may be about 33 years old… But the liberal party has existed in some form or other for about 300 years.
I thought I covered that, but yes, I mean errr... The Lib Dems have only existed for 31 years, they were formed when the Liberal Party, who actually held the last non-Tory/Labour Government almost 100 years ago, but were a spent force in the 80s Merged with the SDP who had splintered from Labour when it went further to the Left.
But my point is that Centric / Social Liberal Labour members and MPs have an idealogical link with the Lib Dems, it's the very reason the Lib Dems (and not the Liberal Party) was formed.
In the past if Labour Voters, Members and MPs who aren't Socalists they feel their Party is being taken that way, they will often move their alliances to the Lib Dems.
I guess we shouldn't use history as a road map of the future, but it gives us a good clue. (if the polls weren't proof enough).
Member
Corbyn is being hounded as antisemetic deliberately because of his support for palestinians.
I’m not sure that including a Zionist conspiracy theory in the body of a post attempting to debunk accusations of anti-semitism is a good idea. 😀
And I think that makes my point perfectly. Any critisim of Isreal and its policies gets you called antisemetic.
Don’t wish to be harsh, but if she is seriously ill, then she should perhaps take a break from the job to recover,
Well, maybe let her decide what is the best way to manage her situation.
Apart from that, it seems that some of what Watson said on R4Today was a bunch of porky pies. What possible reason for that could there be? Is that the person you want to take over leading the LP ??
Totally off topic but
Kier Starmer and Andy Burnham I’d vote for if it meant getting the Tories out.
Andy "I'm in it for the publicity" Burnham. Jesus H.
No doubt he'll go for the leadership after he solves homelessness.
He's certainly a man of many talents:
Oh my god, he is one of _THEM!_*
No wonder he is against St Jeremey.
I _always_ thought his nose was too big.
.
.
.
.
* One of the je.. the je... an ISRAELI
Whew, I think I danced the extremist dance of semantics correctly.
Nice to see the Corbynites/PFJ/Momentum concentrating all their energy into addressing the most pressing issues facing the country today
Momentum announces drive to help Labour members deselect MPs
Maybe when they’ve sorted out completing the cult of St Jeremy and driving out Tom Watson and the other non-believers they could get round to maybe providing some actual opposition to the Tory’s
Just a thought
I won’t hold my breath, eh?
Well Len thinks he is a ****ing disgrace anyway 🙂
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-antisemitism-row-len-mccluskey-calls-tom-watson-f-disgrace-after-formby-attack-11762455
Maybe when they’ve sorted out completing the cult of St Jeremy and driving out Tom Watson and the other non-believers they could get round to maybe providing some actual opposition to the Tory’s
They could do a **** sight better job of dealing with the Tories if likes of your mate stopped giving them reasons to be in division.
Is his mate Len?
Speaking at Durham Miners Gala?
Are there any miners left in Durham?
Perfectly illustrates what page Len, Jezza and comrades are on really, doesn’t it?
1982, here we come!
I look forward to them unveiling the future of the UK car industry about to be decimated by the Brexit they’ve enthusiastically enabled...
They could do a **** sight better job of dealing with the Tories if likes of your mate stopped giving them reasons to be in division.
Oh yeah, it's definitely Watson stopping Corbyn from being on r4 at 8:10 am. Do leave off.
Tom Watson will not be the next leader of the labour party.
Correct:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50325666
More moderates and centrists leaving front line politics.
More moderates and centrists leaving front line politics.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
There is no place for centrists in current British politics.
We have three right of centre parties in the Brexit Party, Tories and Lib Dems. Centrists are incapable of challenging such a shift to the right without travelling that way themselves (as the Lib Dems have done).
There is no place for centrists in current British politics.
Then FPTP needs to go, because everyone should be able to expect to be represented in our parliament. Or are you suggesting their are no voters other than right wing and left wing ones?
Then FPTP needs to go, because everyone should be able to expect to be represented in our parliament. Or are you suggesting their are no voters other than right wing and left wing ones?
Straight up commie/fascist play, claim that the center ground is obsolete or no longer existent and then try to encourage a big show down between two diametrically opposed forces that cannot co-exist.
Then FPTP needs to go
Yes but that doesnt seem relevant to the point they look to be making.
Which was more "centrists" currently seem to have a tendency to drift rightwards. It is a problem in the triangulation approach used by "centrists". Taking some of your opponents policies works okay in the first election but second one they have two options.
Either they can try the same trick back on you or they can try and separate themselves from you again by moving further to your side. If the latter then you either, effectively, abandon triangulation or once again choose some more policies to nick. Suddenly you have shifted the centre ground to their side.
One of the main problems with this triangulation model is you run a real risk of failing to represent your traditional voters and overemphasising the importance of the "centrists" since those are the swing voters. Then those traditional voters start looking for a change, any change.
So there should be a distinct centrist party rather than coopting the traditional left/right wing parties but currently that doesnt seem to be on offer. The answer though is to provide that and not take over one of the others.
dissonance
Subscriber
Yes but that doesnt seem relevant to the point they look to be making. Which was more “centrists” currently seem to have a tendency to drift rightwards.
I'm not sure that's completely true tbh. I think that "centrists" in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place. Theresa May's government was described as centrist ffs.
The trick is to convince everyone else that the centre is where you already are, rather than actually moving. Ed Miliband took one of the more genuinely centrist positions we've seen in UK elections for years and still got called "Red Ed" and buried under "Labour will give all your money away". And nobody knew what he actually wanted or stood for, by the end even he wasn't sure, because he'd chased the moving target of "the centre" while David Cameron just stayed exactly where he wanted to be and said "it's over here!"
I’m not sure that’s completely true tbh. I think that “centrists” in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place. Theresa May’s government was described as centrist ffs.
It is of course, hard to be smack in the center - who described may as centrist though? She wasn't. The Lib Dems have a claim, even if it is to the right of it under Swinson.
If the center ground cannot find it's footing again though, we are ****ed - we'll end up in a ideologically reactionary spiral and the 2016 referendum will be judged by history as a quiet opening ranging shot followed by a series of increasingly violent broadside salvos.
...claim that the center ground is obsolete or no longer existent...
So, who has the centre ground at the moment? Oh, and if you mention Lib Dems that is a hard fail.
The lack of truly centrist parties, in England at least, is pretty self-evident.
So, who has the centre ground at the moment? Oh, and if you mention Lib Dems that is a hard fail.
The lack of truly centrist parties, in England at least, is pretty self-evident.
It's fairly hard to find yourself right in the centre, but yes the lib dems are right of centre right now.
You rightly point out that there are a lack of centrists in parliament, that is a huge problem though as polarised parties feed off of each other leading to a reactionary descent into extremism, the more radical one side gets - so the other does in response.
There is no place for centrists in current British politics
I agree (for me) and I said a few months ago they were going to mostly fizzle away.
Voters are moving to more extremes to correct or support their political identity. Where did you think the Brexit came from?
'Extreme' perhaps not the perfect word as I believe Labours 2017 manifesto is not really an extreme but it has to correct Tory damage so therby swings more to the left.
Trouble is Centrists tend to be shouty as they're clinging to the bygone Blair era and might lose out a bit in their quest for bigger houses, nicer cars and cozy fringe Neolib benefits.
They will be back though - when the Political landscape swings in the opposite direction.
(Libdumbs aren't Centrists in my opinion - they are too market-orientated but are selling it as Centrism. There is no feel good factor with them.)
Centrism a la Blair is done for the time being in any substantial way. Not sure what Jonathan Freedland will do ...
Labour is a little left of centre, lib dems a little right of centre. Tories are hard right wing. SNP are a little left of centre.
UK politics have moved one heck of a long way to the right to the point that the political centre of the UK is way to the right of the real political centre.
Look at the way corbyn is vilified for being some sort of hard leftie when labour does not have a single policy that is not mainstream social democratic as seen thru the mirror of european politics. Nothing that labour has as a policy would raise an eyebrow in most of Europe - indeed I had a series of political discussions with mainland europeans who were all astonished at the way Corbyn was portrayed in the media and they couldn't understand why he was attacked as he is because in their view he was nothing remarkable and came over very well on TV
I think that “centrists” in the UK tend to actually just be right of centre in the first place.
True. I was trying to keep it more generalised and within that I think there is still a tendency to drift to one side or another once the triangulation policy has been adapted.
For the UK the centrists do seem to have a definite leaning. I am not sure how much it is driven by the need to kiss the hard right presses arse?
Ed Miliband is interesting. Definitely with left wing tendencies and towards the end of the campaign did try to show them but too little to late.
There also needs to be a recognisation that these "centrists" are often just as ideological driven as anyone else. Its just either they dont recognise it or dont admit to it.
Its reflected in comments like "ideologically reactionary spiral " which seems determined to ignore the fact that is precisely what we got from the "centrists" in the UK. The difference being the centrists seem to work on taking over all major parties and so removing choice that way.
For the UK the centrists do seem to have a definite leaning. I am not sure how much it is driven by the need to kiss the hard right presses arse?
Blair did that and it worked well for him for a number of years so there is a need to do it.
Blair did that and it worked well for him for a number of years so there is a need to do it.
Its debatable whether it was needed in 97 (one fun what if is what if Smith hadnt had a heart attack). It also needs the emphasis on "well for him" as opposed to well overall. All those pissed off people who voted out. Wonder what helped contribute to the impression they have about politicians all being the same.
The influence of the right wing press is still there but not as strong as it was back in the 90s due to the rise in new media
the real power tho in the right wing press is not direct. Its that they set the agenda for the BBC. something picked up in the tory press is always reported on the BBC and every day those in charge of the BBC look at the tory press to decide what goes on the news bulletins.
I thought the BBC was the Tory press these days e.g. I've lost count of the number of times a news reporter has slipped in 'the overwhelming majority is in favour of Brexit' in an interview etc...
As for Tom Watson, great shame, one of the few 'normal' people left in the Labour cabinet; not that he had that much influence.
There also needs to be a recognisation that these “centrists” are often just as ideological driven as anyone else. Its just either they dont recognise it or dont admit to it.
Its reflected in comments like “ideologically reactionary spiral ” which seems determined to ignore the fact that is precisely what we got from the “centrists” in the UK. The difference being the centrists seem to work on taking over all major parties and so removing choice that way.
This!
The Neo-Liberals who dominated the 'centre' in the form of Blarites and previous Lib Dems are/were as much ideologically driven and reactionary as any on the left or right.
The issue is that when the political wind started to blow away from them they attempted (in the case of those billeting in the Labour Party) to damage the party from within, despite the change being democratically driven by the rank-and-file membership.
See, this is my point… because of FPTP, we mostly have a two party system, and in most areas of the UK everyone has to look to one of those parties to represent them. If neither party can have room for people who aren’t “left” or “right” enough to serve in them, then who will represent the voters who do not want or are not interested in the UK swinging much further “right” or “left”? If the two main parties are happy to narrow their focus, then they need to also have the courage to dismantle the FPTP system so that people can chose their representation based on what they want for the UK, not leave them stuck with having to vote against what they can stand to put up with least.
If the two main parties are happy to narrow their focus
I would say that gets it badly wrong. They have broadened their focus from a very narrow group of voters to taking all their voters into account.
This is obviously problematic from centrists since after being treated as all important for many years they are now being treated more equally. Unfortunately some dont seem to be able to adapt to this.
In theory there is the representative party although under the orange book lot sadly they have been dragged rightwards.
Its not just the centrists though. What about green party members or hard left people who arent represented? I would say hard right as well but Johnson currently has that covered.
What is so special about the centrists that they deserve this special treatment?
Dont get me wrong I would prefer a PR system but the complaints about the centrists not getting enough attention strikes me as wrong and shows a sense of entitlement which really doesnt help.
a sense of entitlement
Yes, I think everyone should feel entitled to be represented in our parliament. If we stick with a voting system designed for a two party system, those parties should, between them, seek to represent everyone. If they decide to just represent their core left and core right voters, safe in the knowledge that FPTP will stop other voters abandoning them for fear of the other big party benefitting, then our democratic system is denying representation to a huge chunk of the population.
Dawn Butler to stand as candidate for deputy leader - god help us; she is utterly useless and a thoroughly incompetent interviewee.
Anyone listen to radio 4 this morning it had Ian Austin on it telling people to vote for boris.....
I don't do discussing politics but it was such an impassioned speech it was quite interesting
Labour is a little left of centre, lib dems a little right of centre. Tories are hard right wing. SNP are a little left of centre.
I don't really accept the whole left/right thing at all...
...but if we do play along with it for a moment how the hell are the SNP "a little left of centre" on a scale where Labour is currently 'a little left of centre'??? The SNP are about as fiscally responsible as you can get and as far as I can tell haven't nationalised anything, they haven't redistributed anything and their tax regime is near identical to the rest of the Uk.
They froze council tax for everyone, cut council service budgets in real terms and handed out middle-class perks like free university education and free prescriptions at the expense of the NHS and college places.
I'd be delighted if the SNP were in government in the UK right now and for the next five years, and I'm a raving neo-liberal.
Well according to the rightwing press the SNP are raving lefties. They did use the limited tax powers thay have to be redistributive. Earn less than the average wage you pay less tax than in England. Earn more an you pay more. They also spent a lot of money on trying to mitigate many of the UK wide benefit cuts, we have no private provision in Schools or the NHS bar contracts that were in place before they came to power. they bought the various toll bridges ( natiuonalisation) and made them free Nationalised a failing private hospital and there are plenty of other examples of the sort of lefty policies that you would hate if Corbyn made them. If they had the power they would nationalise a lot more of the things the tories sold off like electricity and water
Actually there is hardly a fag paper between their policies and labours in most areas. the things they haven't done is because holyrood does not have the power.
And of course add to that the work they are doing on benefits. Disability benefit assessments are being brought back in house and they are using the limited powers they have in benefits to redistribute as well
thinking about it the hospital and the bridges may be pre SNP Cannot remember