[Closed] Tom Watson!

Why the hate for him? Ask Reg and the PFJ...

5 time Open Winner too in a previous life.

Ah, the JHJ of the Labour Party.

Either entirely credulous and naive, or cynically prepared to abuse Parliamentary Privilege to launch the most vile of smears in order further his political standing.

Why the hate for him? How can the party function with such a huge split?

How much does his position differ from that of the lib Dems?

The second and third questions answer the first.

Ah, the JHJ of the Labour Party.

Either entirely credulous and naive, or cynically prepared to abuse Parliamentary Privilege to launch the most vile of smears in order further his political standing.

I was about to join the OP in singing Watson's praise until you reminded me of this. Utterly despicable individual using parliamentary privilege to make utterly false claims about people. If you're going to make accusations of any kind you should check the evidence well, claims that irredeemably destroy reputations and lives should be checked to the Nth degree.

Because he isn't seen as sufficiently loyal to Magic Grandad and is therefore basically Hitler as far as the Tankies are concerned.

The most recent MORI Westminster voting intention Pol has Labour on 18%, behind the Conservatives, Lib Dems and the Brexit party.

Tory HQ must be offering daily praise to the ghost of Thatcher for giving them Corbyn as an opponent, he's basically the number 1 factor keeping them in No.10.

Say what you want about Blair (I frequently have) the smarmy bugger knew how to beat the Tories.

When the inevitable internal elections occur … I think Watson has a good chance of being re-elected : those vocal members that really hate him aren't really representive of the membership as a whole, and especially not representative of those who elected him & Corbyn. I also think McDonnell will become leader in those elections… but perhaps that is for another thread…

Thought McDonnell didn't want it over health concerns?

Why the hate for him? How can the party function with such a huge split?

Tom is more of a Social Democrat type Labour person, JC is a Socialist. On the old left-right spectrum that puts Tom to the right of Jeremy.

During the Blair years labour was a lot better at integration, Blair and Brown Social Democrats or 'New Labour' aka "****ing tories" by Socalists, but people like John Prescott who is a socialist held key roles and even the old blow-hard Dennis Skinner was offered a position in the cabinet, which he declined. They rarely all got on, but opinions were welcome and they functioned well as a whole.

JC's followers, especially Momentum are more idealogical, I honestly believe they care more about taking control of the Labour party and ensuring it's a more pure socialist party that taking control of the Government, they hate Social Democrats (or Blairites as they call them) more than Tories.

Are Tom Watsons policies different from the Lib Dems, probably not at a fundamental level - the Lib Dems have only existed for about 30 years, they were formed when 4 Labour MPs grew increasingly worried about the 'Hard Left' taking over the Labour Party who were calling for the UK to leave the EEC and unilaterally disarm as a nuclear power, so they first formed the SDP (Social Democrat Party) and finally merged with the Liberal Party to form the Lib Dems.

I'm sure most people can see parallels with today.

I also think McDonnell will become leader in those elections…

Whilst he is undeniably the brains and the dynamo behind the current Labour leadership he's a bit to old to be taking on a 5 year commitment in a couple of years time and he's been on the Political Thinking podcast with Nick Robinson effectively listing Corbyn's potential successors.

So deffo not, despite everyone involved including Corbyn believing that McDonnell should be where Corbyn is now.

The Political Thinking McDonnell interview is well worth a listen.

JC’s followers, especially Momentum are more idealogical,

There is nothing wrong with having a political idealogy of fairness and compassion, unfortunately the only idealogical that currently appears to matter is an singular belief in the right to wield power by narcissists.

JC lost the full bloodied support of momentum some time ago, due to his handling of Brexit. Momentum are not the second coming of militant, as they are frequently and falsely represented as being, they are are actually quite representative of labour as a whole. Unfortunately in a world dominated by trolls, they are usually blamed for the behaviour of the shouty under bridge dwelling troublemakers.

It was a real shame, that in a time of politic disenfranchisement a ground swell of largely young people looking to be politically active and left leaning, have so firmly been put back in their place, the right wing propaganda was to be expected, but to be taken for granted and have their ideologies abused by so many in the current labour leadership is really a disgrace.

Watson I find difficult to gauge. His behaviour at first when Corbyn was elected was appalling - briefing against him and coordinating attacks. However once the attempt to oust Corbyn failed Watson has done a very good job of holding a fractured party ( that he helped create) together.

Subscriber

Say what you want about Blair (I frequently have) the smarmy bugger knew how to beat the Tories.

this is a rewriting of history. Smith had done all the hard work to get labour elected and any leader would have been elected the relative positions were so strong after the collapse of the major government. Blair hemorrhaged support all thru his time, lost huge amounts of members and voters.

... but still won in 1997, 2001 and 2005 with 3 consecutive thumping great majorities the current crop could only dream of.

If that's not beating the Tories in your book then I'm not sure what criteria you're looking for.

All governments see support drain over time, that fact only makes the 2005 majority more impressive after 8 years in power.

...and won three general elections

Smith had done all the hard work to get labour elected

Smith died ~2 years after taking over. Blair was leader for ~3 years in the run up to the 1997 election.

So Smith did enough work in his short tenure to sustain Labour over 13 years after Smith's death and Blair/Brown and the new Labour project were surfing on the 2 year Smith wave?

It's nonsense, all Blair's opponents acknowledge him as a vote winning machine and he was. An Anglican who was thinking about becoming a Catholic and read the Koran. He had electoral star dust.

But let's give you a chance. Name three changes that Smith made that you think can be credited for Labour's success between 1994 and 2008.

All governments see support drain over time, that fact only makes the 2005 majority more impressive after 8 years in power.

This.

Blair still won after two terms in spite of a deeply unpopular war.

Pfft! Winning elections and actually getting stuff done is for crypto-fascist slaves of the military-industrial complex and capitalist lackeys.

Far better to retain ones idealogical purity and principles in the trenches of opposition... the real fight! ... and... oh... sociology lecture... ok on my way..... oh ... IRAQ!!!

Devolution - the policy was his. Getting policy making organised and sensible via alterations to the party machinery to avoid " the longest suicide note of all time". Thats two easy ones.

Worth noting that Iain Duncan Smith,William Hague and Michael Howard were all doing better against Blair than Magic Grandads truly pathetic showing against the most incompetent, chaotic government in this countries history, half of who’s natural vote has been usurped by Farage

Makes you think...

You do realise that corbyns "disastrous" 2017 result was the same in % of votes as Blairs "triumph" in 2005 40%

And that is after Labour ( pre Corbyn) lost scotland so they actually got more votes in England under Corbyn than Blair did in 2005

Devolution – the policy was his.

Nope, the Scottish Constitutional Convention didn't report until 1995 - after Smith had died. [1]

Getting policy making organised and sensible via alterations to the party machinery to avoid ” the longest suicide note of all time”.

Detail, so I can check?

[1]

In response to Conservative dominance, in 1989 the Scottish Constitutional Convention was formed encompassing the Labour Party, Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Green Party, local authorities, and sections of "civic Scotland" like Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Small Business Federation and Church of Scotland and the other major churches in Scotland. Its purpose was to devise a scheme for the formation of a devolution settlement for Scotland. The SNP decided to withdraw as independence was not a constitutional option countenanced by the convention. The convention produced its final report in 1995.

You do realise that corbyns “disastrous” 2017 result was the same in % of votes as Blairs “triumph” in 2005 40%

And that is after Labour ( pre Corbyn) lost scotland so they actually got more votes in England under Corbyn than Blair did in 2005

The Torys also did well in 2017 in % terms compared to previous elections. Both the main parties gained when the liberal vote collapsed. You've been told this before, there's no excuse for repeating it once it's been debunked.

Watson I find difficult to gauge.

I know someone who worked in parliament for a while several years ago and had fairly extensive dealings with the politicians of the time. There were two people in the house that they spoke highly of, one of whom was Tom Watson. It's a judgement I trust, everyone makes mistakes and nobody is perfect but I'm pretty sure that Watson is one of the good guys.

Mmmm, but he appears to want to throw Chris Williamson under the bus to ‘save’ the electoral prospects of the LP. He knows CW is not anti Semitic but chooses to go along with the smears rather than address the right wing fallacies. IMHO he is not a principled politician but one that bends in the wind.

Interesting cougar.

OOB you need to go look at the numbers. Lib dems were down 0.5% from the previous election. Labour up 9%

I(t really is not as you think - you have been told this before and your position debunked!

thats me done with politics threads here

Corbynism’s greatest liability is now Jeremy Corbyn himself

Just * off magic grandad! And at least give the grown ups (like Tom Watson) a chance of saving the Labour Party before it’s too late, and actually representing the views of the majority of Labour MPs, members and voters instead of Len *ing McCluskey.

Tom Watson’s ‘problem’, along with that of now pretty much all Labour MP’s, is that he objects to the sixth former presently masquerading as the leader of the Labour Party ignoring everyone else and allowing this clown to dictate party policy

Grandad just postponed, yet again, a policy commitment on Brexit to ‘consult the unions’. Read that as ‘ask Len’

It’s pathetic! But fully explains labour presently polling at 18% and sinking lower by the week

Just * off magic grandad! And at least give the grown ups (like Tom Watson) a chance of saving the Labour Party before it’s too late, and actually representing the views of the majority of Labour MPs, members and voters instead of Len *ing McCluskey.

Still stamping your feet but not bothering to join the party, then?

OOB you need to go look at the numbers. Lib dems were down 0.5% from the previous election. Labour up 9%

And conservatives up 5.5%

The big stories at that election were lots of first time voters turning out for Labour, and the UKIP vote vanishing. Well, FarageIP are now back, big time, and Labour are struggling (to put it mildly) to keep those new voters.

Oh FFS! Ransos. Seriously? Still banging on about this? You have a very high boredom threshold don’t you? If you’re not a party member then you’re not entitled to an opinion? That’s it right?

You might want to look up how a representative parliamentary democracy actually works. People have to vote for you. You don’t get elected by how many members you have.

Why would I join a party populated by lunatics?

I read all the red labour social media shit. And it is shit. Nasty, horrible misogynistic, rapey, antisemitic, militant Marxist bullshit. What sane person would want to hitch themselves to that?

No thanks, mate. I’ll leave that to you

I actually went to a Momentum meeting to see for myself and sat and listened, incredulous, as they discussed how to counter MI5 assassinating Jeremy

You’re all mental placard-waving sixth formers and grizzled Old 70’s throwback Marxists! And as more people see what Corbyn and his cabal are all about, the present 18% polling will look like a high point.

Latest polling shows that 57% of labour voters who voted for them at the last election voted for another party at the E.U. and local elections.

Losing 57% of your voters in 2 years

While in opposition to a total shambles of a government

Time to go, grandad

Anyway, back to mr Watson.

I feel he could deliver what every new labour voter thought they were going to get in 2017.

He could get the youth vote back and he has a real insight into the junk we all eat today.

However I really can’t see how he fits into the current Labour Party. I wish he and his like minded colleagues would join the Lib Dems. Then labour can argue all they like about the exact shade of red their flag should be.

Oh FFS! Ransos. Seriously? Still banging on about this?

You're complaining about someone banging on about the same issue? Buy a mirror. You're just a petulant man child exhibiting all the behaviours you ascribe to others, sounding off while doing absolutely eff all to change anything, because that would involve actually doing something other than pasting GIFs in here. The very definition of all mouth and no trousers.

Tom Watson will not be the next leader of the labour party. Aside from the fact that the membership will never forgive him for his Boris-like mission to undermine the current leadership in his own interests, the next leader needs to be a woman, and it should be achieved with an all-female shortlist in the next leadership election. Take your pick from Emily Thornberry, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Angela Rayner and Yvette Cooper.

I’m pretty sure the Labour ‘membership’ will opt for someone equally as clueless (is that possible?) as magic grandad to carry on Project Irrelevance, and complete their mission to deliver Brexit and permanent Tory rule.

Round of applause for everyone involved

That makes no sense at all. When it comes to electing a new leader, members will have different issues in mind, and many will be looking for someone to do a different job in different times. Yes, to win the candidates will need to be more "left wing" than candidates in past decades, but that doesn't need to result in them sharing the exact same political positioning and world view as the current leader. Oh, and I don't think there's any chance of Tom Watson becoming leader. Well, not an elected one… he may well be an interim one during at a key time soon though.

I’m pretty sure the Labour ‘membership’ will opt for someone equally as clueless (is that possible?)

Round of applause for everyone involved

We know that won't be you. Much better to post the same drivel on here instead.

Whatevs.

Who do you fancy as being anointed by magic grandad to take over on the bridge of the sinking ship once he loses another election, then?

You’re forever evangelically banging on about your scared ‘membership’, like it was some article of faith, so who do you and the other chosen ones see as the heir to the throne, comrade?

Dianne Abbott?

You’re forever evangelically banging on about your scared ‘membership’,

I've no idea if they're scared or not, nor do I evangelize about them. The point is so simple that even you could understand it: sounding off here while doing absolutely nothing to bring about the change you claim to want tells me that you're an empty vessel, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Again... whatevs.

I’m interested in your opinion though, which is why I’ve asked you the question...

As a believer, one of the faithful, who would you see having the mantle passed to them by the beardy messiah? Who would the blessed ‘membership’ ordain to be the Kim Jong-un to Jeremy’s Jung-il?

You can carry on abusing me during your answer if it makes you more comfortable, I but who are your runners and riders for the successor once he’s lost the next election?

If you hate the current tory gov and want a better labour party than the one we have now, why not join the party so you can have a say in who the new leader should be??

When everyone is running from a burning building, you don’t run towards it, do you?

I know quite a few lifelong, active party members who’ve just given up in despair and resigned they’re membership.

With reference to the topic we’re on, the only thing the labour membership seem remotely interested in is getting people like Tom Watson deselected.

Providing an actual opposition, never mind winning a general election seems pretty far down the agenda. If there is an actual agenda, other than completing the takeover of the party, which seems pretty much done already.

I think a lot of the Corbynites would probably benefit from reading this...

Anyway.... your runners and riders to carry on Jezza’s legacy?

Or how about who’ll replace Tom Watson as deputy leader in September when the plan to unseat the treacherous blasphemer comes to fruition?

Over to you...

When everyone is running from a burning building, you don’t run towards it, do you?

You do if you want to put the fire out!

Bindery
So why is labour membership hugely up then?

It’s not. They reckon they’ve lost 100,000+ members since the general election

And let’s not mention the polling

Anyone going to answer my questions?

Who’s the next Kim?

Whilst membership is up (but rapidly declining) it is no reflection of electability. My preference for the next leader is someone who is more electable than JC. I like JC a lot but i can see he has some significant flaws (inability to respond quickly, embarrassing over brexit).

To answer your question binners: Yvette Cooper would be my choice, or a returning Andy Burnham.

Now answer mine: What is your plan to democratically rectify the state this country is in?

If you hate the current tory gov and want a better labour party than the one we have now, why not join the party so you can have a say in who the new leader should be??

I did at least, just not the Labour Party.

I did at least, just not the Labour Party.

Good. I'm not saying Vote Labour here, i'm advocating being democratically involved if you want to see a change, irrespective of what you want that change to be.

This country needs an electable labour government, desperately.

Unfortunately, not only is Corbyn far from that, the changes occurring in the party under him are taking them further and further away from power. Any opposition worthy of the name would be twenty points clear in the polls and on for a Blair style landslide victory

With Corbyn - Consolidating the influence of his 70’s throwback comrades ain’t a great look to the wider electorate, as the polling and recent results shows.

I did the 3 quid membership to vote for Andy, and if he’d have got in then I firmly believe we’d now have a labour government and Brexit wouldn’t be happening

I think Yvette Cooper would be a great leader, and a great PM. So obviously, in the present Labour Party, she hasn’t s prayer.

The party seems determined to return to the early 80’s and permanent opposition. And that is very very bad news for all of us

I remember when I first noticed Tom Watson early in the Corbyn days, he did some stuff that I can't remember but gave me a fairly quick dislike of the man.

More recently, I find him to be the voice of sense, unity and moderation within the Labour party. It seems to me that he might actually be capable of bringing the party together and putting the boot into the current govt.

So I'm stuck between him having a bad history but looking like a good politician right now.

Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham, David Milliband, probably even Keir Starmer would all be eminently electable types in my view and might enourage me to vote labour.

I'd encourage those who want to see a more electable opposition to be involved where they can as it will only be changed from the inside.

Anyone who joins the labour party will just be giving Corbyn a clear mandate to carry on doing nothing.

I’ve heard from friends who’ve recently left that the atmosphere within the Labour Party is now so toxic that you’d have to be a masochist to go in there as a non-believer in the cult of Jeremy.

It’s got all the hallmarks of Militant in the early 80’s, except Militant never got its hands on the steering wheel. They have now and the party has gone careering off to electoral irrelevance

Personally I can only see, if things carry on as they are, a huge SDP scale defection by moderate labour MPs like Watson, as there is no way that Corbyn’s cabal that have colonised the party are going to change course, or give it up.

And if that happens, a lot of labour voters are already ahead of them. On Brexit, for example, the Lib Dem’s unambiguous pro remain position is why they’re polling above labour. Something which i’m Sure is giving pause for thought among many non-coby ire labour MP’s - is: the vast majority of them

Personally I can only see a huge SDP scale defection by moderate labour MPs like Watson, as there is no way that Corbyn’s cabal that have colonised the party are going to change course, or give it up.

I keep expecting this too, some Political correspondents are saying them same thing, but it's not happened yet - it always seems to be a case that a handful are expected, only at the 11th hour it doesn't happen.

There's been talk of a lot of threats of de-selection for non-believers, they may jump as MPs and join the Lib Dems (Change UK seems to have faltered) rather than try to gain re-election under another party.

Labour relies a lot on Party loyalty, consider Newport West recently had a by-election, they voted 56% leave in the EU ref one of the larger margins in the UK, but the Labour candidate they elected as their MP is a vocal remainer and campaigned to have a 2nd Ref and to remain. Have the people of Newport swung that far, or would they vote for a Pig in a red rosette.

Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham, David Milliband, probably even Keir Starmer would all be eminently electable types

They would indeed, but they have no chance since the Momentum rule changes.

John McDonnell pretty much named Corbyn's potential successors in Nick Robinson's Political thinking podcast:

Rebecca Long-Bailey
Emily Thornbury
Richard Bergen
Kate Osamor

It will be one of them.

The only way I can see that it turning out differently is if more than one candidate from McDonnell/Abbot/Corbyn's wing of the party stood and split the vote while the moderates put up one candidate. I can't imagine Momentum will be dumb enough to let that happen.

Jess Phillips or Keir Starmer would make me vote for Labour again.

Anyone who joins the labour party will just be giving Corbyn a clear mandate to carry on doing nothing.

This. Very much this.

Jess Phillips or Keir Starmer would make me vote for Labour again.

Ditto, both seem to be fine individuals.

Although they'd have to have chance of winning in my constituency as my priority would be to get the current waste of oxygen Tory out.

Katia Adler on the BBC Brexitcast is just commenting that the present Tory party leadership contest is proving a handy distraction for the Labour Party as there is presently complete turmoil behind the scenes and things are most definitely coming to a head.

I did the 3 quid membership to vote for Andy, and if he’d have got in then I firmly believe we’d now have a labour government and Brexit wouldn’t be happening

You mean this Andy Burnham?

Or this one?

https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/806563566526537728

Yes, that Andy Burnham.

You’re going to tell me he supported going into Iraq next, aren’t you?

You’re going to tell me he supported going into Iraq next, aren’t you?

Nope, I've got very little interest in that. I will say though that there is very little evidence that he would have stopped brexit had he won the leadership. The very opposite in fact, we'd probably be out by now as he would have supported May's deal and voted it through.

So most Labour members are in favour of remain and should be listened to but are also lunatics and should be ignored at all costs.

What are the momentum rule changes to stop a 'Blairite' being a candidate?

... Or maybe had a Labour leader who would actually have turned up for the referendum campaign in the first place Daz? Instead of seeing it as an opportunity to kick back on the allotment for a couple of months and taken on a spectators role

An oft repeated theme ever since, that spawned the much used hashtag

#wheresjeremy

And let’s not mention the polling

Anyone going to answer my questions?

I will - Labour ahead on a good chunk of the polls save yougov.

Britain Elects has an aggregate tracker that puts *currently* Labour 3pts ahead of the Tories.

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

I don't know who does a more bullshit job on Labour you or the papers.

Polling ahead of the Tories?

But still on 18%?

You’ve taken into consideration the other factors, right?

Prepare for the glorious socialist government comrades...

As a relatively independent observer...

Ransos = Labour supporter
TJ = Labour supporter
Binners = Labour supporter

This. This is what Corbyn is doing. He's a ****ing liability.

Plus Kerley = Labour supporter (or was) who doesn't particularly agree with any of the 3 you have listed but then surely that is typical. Just because we want the same general intentions of a party we are not going to all agree on how a party is led. Take Brexit out of it and we would probably be closer aligned.

Pook. 

A very interesting observation.

Time for a lot of people to join the Lib Dems including Mr Watson.

Time for a lot of people to join the Lib Dems including Mr Watson.

If they did, I'd vote for the Lib Dems. If there was to be an election tomorrow I don't know who I'd vote for - none of the major parties inspire much confidence. Maybe I'd vote for the Green Party…

The bottom line is that every day Corbyn has been leader of the Labour Party has delivered a Tory government.

And he’s been busy ensuring this remains the case. It’s absolutely inexplicable to me that anyone can defend him given that the Labour Party is presently polling 18% against this total shambles of a government.

And has anyone heard from him recently? The silence is, as always, deafening

There is, to all intents and purposes, no official opposition in this country at present. When we’ve never needed one more. And the blame for that lies squarely at the feet of Jeremy Corbyn

Time to go and spend more time with your courgettes, grandad

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/tom-watson-weaken-labour-party-centrists-jeremy-corbyn

Dawn Foster eats Binners for lunch.

"But the end result of Watson et al’s constant attacks will not be electoral success under another Labour leader, but a Tory victory. And the people who need a Labour government to change their lives and communities are unlikely to forgive people like him."

?...

They're is so much wrong about Foster's opinion piece it's almost funny. Almost.

They’re [sic] is so much wrong about Foster’s opinion piece

Well, don't keep us in the dark - tell us what, so we can share in the enlightenment.

Tj
Not a labour supporter since the antics in Scotland. Just a seeker after truth

Burnham a despicable racist and brexiteer.

Couper politically unelectable

Starmer is a good candidate

Starmer is a good candidate

He strike me as being a Libdem lost at sea in the Labour Party. He's been banging his anti-Brexit drum for three years whilst been constantly 'corrected' by JC's apparatchiks for being off message...

After watching Panorama last night I don't think anyone is left in any doubt who the real labour leader is...

Seamas Milne