[Closed] Today's lunchtime debate - legalising prostitution

I agree.

If you legalise something you can instigate a degree of control and also tax it.

Same goes for certain types of currently illegal drugs.

If you cannot prevent it occuring (whatever your own personal moral views) you need to legislate to control and minimise harm. Same with drugs and abortion

I agree. Legalise.

I agree. Legalise.

or you provide a pseudo legitimate front for a business which is still effectively exploiting young girls - sort of used car salesman selling cut and shuts.

Yup, legalise.

It's legal already.

At last! A descentor.

[i]a pseudo legitimate front for a business which is still effectively exploiting young girls[/i]

Not pseudo, just legitimate. And the NZ cases seems to have shown that the girls are exploited less because they know their [b]legally enforceable[/b] rights.

Junkyard - abortion is legal?

I dont see anything inherently wrong with prostitution so I would probably say legalise it and give better protection to those doing it legally. I dont think the same can be said for drugs etc so I'd not go so far on that.

[i]It's legal already[/i]

Whilst it's not illegal to have sex for money, it is still illegal to 'live off immoral earnings' i.e. run a brothel.

coffeeking, I assume he was referring to when it wasn't and was all back street abortions?

Could cause problems though when the job centre places a job seeking 44 year old woman in a brothel because they advertised. Don't do the job and lose benefits, do the job and lose self esteem, family etc. (There was a case in Germany not many years back).

Yes, abortion is legal in the UK, up to (I think) 20 weeks from conception.

It's also illegal to solicit in England (dunno about Scotland) - and kerb-crawling is illegal.

But prostitution is legal, hence escorts / call-girls / whores can make a legal living. It's pimps and madames that can't.

Sandwich - that is an interesting twist, I hadn't thought of that.

Having read the article, I'm in favour legalising it - and drugs, fwiw, on the same basis.

God forbid my daughter ever chose it as a career, but far better to do it in a more controlled and safer environment.

And you can work round the benefits issue if you draft the laws correctly

I think it's immoral to try and impose one view of morality through law. So legalise, and deny the bad people their business.

So legalise (some) drugs and all sorts of sex work, and then watch the tax pounds roll in. And cut crime in the process.

[devils advocate mode]

So to those who support legalisation of prostitution, would you be happy with it in your own community/doorstep?

[/devils advocate mode]

Legalisation would only be a first step and would as has been said lead to other problems. There was an uproar when anne summers tried to advertise in a job center.

While I agree that prostitution should be legalised, I think that New Zealand's a substantially different environment to the UK, and saying that because it's largely trouble free there doesn't mean that it would be here.

I'm no expert but I thought that the two serious illegal trades associated with prostitution in this country are hard drugs and people trafficking/"slavery". No real mention of drugs in what's a pretty idealised article, but NZ has a pretty serious drug problem, and I can't see the girls yneeding the money for drugs being able to work in a sanitised environment - they'll still be there on a street corner, even more marginalised, and forced to work harder for less money.
I don't imagine New Zealand really has the same issues with illegal immigration as this country does, and I can't any reason why legalisation will close the illegal brothels down.

In short I reckon it'll just make it a bit easier for a lot of white middle class girls to pay for their education/buy their first flat/pay off their credit cards, in the same way that pole dancing is currently an acceptable way to do that.

So to those who support legalisation of prostitution, would you be happy with it in your own community/doorstep?

Used to work in buildings in the red light district of Liverpool - other than one of the girls turning up dead in the bushes at the back of the office I saw no problems. They were generally nice enough, chatty etc Their comings and goings never affected me at all. Just because something is legalised doesnt mean it's going to be done from the flat next door.

The main reason I'd support legalisation is that it is no different from many jobs. Labouring on a building site is essentially whoring your body out to move stuff about and apply some skills. It can be dangerous, not everyone would want to do it etc etc

At the present ecominic climate people should be encouraged to find employement in any field they choose, legalising it will keep it better controlled and safer, being one of the few things i'm good at and without a job at the mo, it could be my only chance of earning a few pence...

So anyone wanna no strings shag????

STW becomes latest cyber street corner 🙂

Let us know how you get on as a rent-boy, sharki.
Rather you than me.

Definately should be legal, in fact I think I will send my girls onto the streets early tonight to take a poll among their regulars 😈

[IMG] [/IMG]

prostitution is legal here in Geneva ( not switz as a whole.. just here... someone has to keep all the diplomats happy I guess. )

the girls carry permits ( so I'm told ) and have to get health checks once a month... great once a month... how long does it take to contact AIDS?
.

is anyone going to admit to having had a prostitute ? I'd never even knowingly seen one until last year when a young woman solicited me. I was embarrassed and walked away quickly...

How hese things are presented shapes the debate enormously. In that article, "Sophie" is a bright, pleasant woman with no social problems other than a shortage of money. She is having sex with people for money, it's legal, it's all lovely.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of women who are like her, but presumably it remains true that there are plenty who are not, and who are doing what they do because they are desperately vulnerable and have a full gamut of social problems starting with having been in care as children and working up through abusive relationships and drug addiction.

Now, I'd go to a legalised brothel without worrying about it too much morally if that was the done thing. But I suspect that might be a moderately expensive business, and I'd not want to be paying a desperate drug addict with bad breath and needle marks. Assuming the desperate drug addict is still pretty much otherwise unemployable and stands no chance of getting a job in a nice clean legalised brothel she is still going to be selling herself, and she's going to be much cheaper than the clean girls with the VD certificates and the sexy undies making a safe and empowered career choice inside.

Result, in this scenario, is a lot more "nice" girls taking up prostitution as a career choice, and a whole load of ther same helpless people who do it now not having the chance to do it legally and carrying on doing it illegally. The only way those people are put out of business is if virtually all of the potential punters prefer a nice classy experience in a legalised brothel regardless of the additional cost.

I'm in favour of legalisation, but I'm not sure it removes all the real problems of the present situation.

There's a load off here heading down to the quantocks this weekend, they're paying me in cake and will be well and truely shagged at the end of it....

Is this illegal prostitution???????

Another intelligent, lucid post from BD. You're the Jekyll to PaddedFred's Hyde 🙂

[i]I'm in favour of legalisation, but I'm not sure it removes all the real problems of the present situation.[/i]

I'm sure it doesn't. In the case of addicts though, it's a well known fact that it's often their pimps who are also their dealers. Clean up the pimps through legalisation and you go some way to helping them from their drugs cycle.

I don't for one minute think that legalisation is the silver bullet, but it's got to be better than the present situation.

[i]So to those who support legalisation of prostitution, would you be happy with it in your own community/doorstep?[/i]

The woman who lives across the road from me is on the game. I have no problem with her gentleman callers (I do have a problem with her stealing our cat, but that's by the by).

Simon - no, never. BUT I suspect that's because it would all be rather hard work and seedy.

I nearly ended up in a brothel in Warsaw on a mate's stag do. We had been more or less living in a strip club (rather pathetically) for two days and some people were getting bored with just groping women's breasts for quite large amounts of money. There was a brothel listed in the Rough Guide as being safe and good fun, and it was mooted as a serious suggestion. The only reason we did not go, I think, was that the groom really, really did not want to.

Now, rocking into a strip club in Warsaw was effortless (I've never gone to one in the UK) and going to a brothel was clearly quite easily achieved. If I had the option of popping into a fairly "fun" sort of brothel, having a drink and maybe acclimatising myself to the idea of paying for sex in an environment that was neither seedy, threatening or anything else I cannot, in all seriousness, totallly rule out the possibility. On the other hand I can safely rule out the possibility under present arrangements. Being candid, there is probably a huge potential demand, as there clearly was for lap-dancing. If paying for sex is made easier and more appealling then I reckon we have to face up to the fact that quite a few more people will do it. Social constraint cannot be relied upon either. Very recently, lap-dancing has gone from a ridiculous and sordid performance to somethign that young women fall over themselves to be OK with and to claim they regard it as empowering and artistic. The same process would apply to visiting nice clean attractive legal prostitutes. Bored blokes would be telling their wives that what they really needed was a nice threesome on valentine's day, Cosmo would do a report on how much fun it was, and away you go...

Sharki - bend over and take it like a man...

IHN - to what use is the stolen cat being put?! 😯

"is anyone going to admit to having had a prostitute ? I'd never even knowingly seen one until last year when a young woman solicited me. I was embarrassed and walked away quickly..."

Hey Simon you forgot to add

......Looking for the cash till 🙂

 

I used to go out with a woman who worked as a professional dominatrix and though its not prostitution as such (being as there is no actual sex involved) its often lumped into the same category and some of the offences (such as living off immoral earnings) can also be applied in the case of arrest.

She had no qualms about doing the job, she saw it as basically a form of acting and it paid very well. She had never ben troubled by the police, worked from a nice house in Chelsea, paid taxes (though she was officially a 'relationship counsellor') and had quite a large amount of wealthy clients (bot male and female) and some of them were fairly well known public figures.

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sootyandjim - Member
I used to go out with a woman who worked as a professional dominatrix
[/center]

Actually in her non-working life she was a very submissive person, just a very good actress for work.

Kill for a living and get a medal.

Make love for a living and get a criminal record.

Go figure!

sofatester - Did a squaddie steal your girlfriend off you?

God no, it was an officer! What kind of girls do you think i go out with Sooty? 😆

Speaking as a resident of Ipswich, I can't really see the argument for maintaining the status quo. Clearly what we are doing now is neither right nor working. So there is no question that we need to do something different IMHO, and then keep doing something different until we arrive at a solution that works. Walking round with blinkers on and sweeping things under the carpet doesn't actually solve anything. If it be that legalising prostitution removes the sex trade from the control of the drug pushers, people smugglers and other nasty low lifes then thats a result IMHO.

G

"
Speaking as a resident of Ipswich, I can't really see the argument for maintaining the status quo. Clearly what we are doing now is neither right nor working. So there is no question that [i]we need to do something different IMHO, and then keep doing something different until we arrive at a solution that works.[/i] Walking round with blinkers on and sweeping things under the carpet doesn't actually solve anything"

you could say that sums up the governments attitue to the banking crisis.

Speaking from Doncaster, where we have had a big street prostitution problem, the police and streetreach people have never seen a prostitute on the streets who wasn't a drug adict, usually heroin, but some crack these days. The whores are not doing it as a career choice, but to fund their addiction. In my view the answer is to offer free (on-site only to prevent resale) injections of diamorphine on demand at GP clinics and chemists, all you want, when you want it, it's dirt cheap anyway. The street stuff then ceases to have an economic value and the network of prostitutes, burglars, shoplifters and handlers collapses. From a moral point of view it's not justifiable, but when has drug illegality ever stopped anyone who has become an addict already?

is anyone going to admit to having had a prostitute ? I'd never even knowingly seen one until last year when a young woman solicited me. I was embarrassed and walked away quickly...

Never "used" one. Hardly avoidable in a large city, no need to be embarrassed - they're human too. Had plenty of offers from them but when you turn them down often enough they tend to get to know you and just say hi. Or offer you two for one (shudder).

As midlife says, they tend to be drugged to the eyeballs, covered in bruises and freezing on the streets.

Where can I get a cheeap frame/fork for the wife?

Today's lunchtime debate - legalising prostitution

Funnily, this is how these two threads appeared in the main menu!

Cor, imagine, if all you got for your wife, was an On-One...

Definately needs to be looked at from both sides of the fence.
There's always concern for the women and their health. But what often goes unreported is the damage done to otherwise stable families of the 'punters' when it all goes wrong.
Legal or not many wives would have very different views to us men.
I've not been involved with anyone or been in any'situations' but certain events outside of my life have made me totally re evaluate this old chestnut.

I'd point out that the relationship wasnt in great shape if the bloke is using prostitutes, so really it is just revealing the problem. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with legalising it.

But what often goes unreported is the damage done to otherwise stable families of the 'punters' when it all goes wrong.

If a punter in an outwardly appearing stable family feels the need to visit a prostitute then the damage is already there.

Of course some people visit prostitutes because they like it, no break-down in marriage or other problems required.

Some would argue that you always pay for sex, one way or the other.

"Some would argue that you always pay for sex, one way or the other."

Married Sooty?

The main reason I'd support legalisation is that it is no different from many jobs. Labouring on a building site is essentially whoring your body out to move stuff about and apply some skills. It can be dangerous, not everyone would want to do it etc etc

I've often thought this about various jobs where you do what might be considered demeaning by some people, care work, nursing etc.

I used to volunteer at a sex workers' support service in Edinburgh and did various jobs like handing out condoms, health leaflets and warning notices about 'bad punters' to the the workers on the streets and in the Edinburgh 'saunas'.

I actually ended up working as a receptionist in one of the saunas when I couldn't get other work. It involved handing out locker keys and towels and taking the fees for the use of the sauna and gym etc. The 'masseuses' dealt with the fees for their own services and paid a 'shift' fee to the sauna. It was a most edifying experience.

Another intelligent, lucid post from BD. You're the Jekyll to PaddedFred's Hyde

That's a very interesting way of looking at things, actually!

Second the comment about BD's post. Very well considered and rationalised.

Further to BD's point about yer Crack/Smack-Addict prostitutes not being the type who would get to work in nice, safe environments with licenses; Cab and Taxi services are legal and licensed, but that does not in any way stop some bloke on minimum wage/unemployed trying to feed his kids, from doing a bit of unlicensed cabbing.

Legalising prostitution, in my experience and opinion, would do very little to actually address the issues which force many women into selling themselves. Someone mentioned providing addicts with clean, controlled doses, so as to undermine the illegal drugs trade, which lies at the root of many ills, such as prostitution, robbery, etc.

Good in theory, but in practice, very difficult to set up and run safely and successfully. Chemists and GP's surgeries have been robbed, and workers harmed, by people seeking to get hold of Diamorphine and Methadone supplies. A clean centre supplying addicts would need heavy security. Then you've got the issue of local residents not wanting to live near such a place, for understandable reasons. And would you actually get users to come to such a centre in the first place? I've heard of situations where police have targeted areas around drug clinics/needle exchanges, because they know they will be able to make many successful arrests, which helps them with their 'clear-up' figures. Then the addicts avoid the place, and the problem becomes worse.

A very deep and complex issue. not one that can be successfully addressed merely by legalising prostitution, as that does not in any way deal with why women are on the Game in the first place.

Criminalising someone who has huge personal problems is wrong, however. Just exacerbates the situation. Hooker gets nicked, fine imposed, she then has to 'work' to pay off the fine...

Prostitution, as it is in reality, is not good. But then, to really eliminate the supply, you have to eliminate the demand.

Hmm...

Assuming you'll never eliminate demand, which you wont, all you can do is try to help those who provide the service. There will always be those who dont want help, this cannot be helped.

it is still illegal to 'live off immoral earnings'

I've spotted a means to get Fred Goodwin after all!

earnings are only immoral if you you consider prostitution immoral. I'd say those out giving it away freely to all and sundry in clubs were more immoral than those using it to pay to keep themselves homed.

"If a punter in an outwardly appearing stable family feels the need to visit a prostitute then the damage is already there."

I dont think that view is quiet accurate. I think some men would be happy seeing a prostitute for occasional 'somebody new' sex, but would want to keep thier partner/marriage at the same time. That would imply selfishness/greed rather than unhappiness. I suspect most women would not want to stay with a partner who made that choice though - at least, not when they found out!

I can't say as I would knowingly date a man I knew had used prostitutes. I would not be happy with his view of women as objects to be purchased as I would be concerned he would view all women in such an empty way and to be honest, I would see him as kind of cheap and sleezy.

Rude Boy - if addicts could get free drugs, why would there be a need to rob the dispensaries? They are targeted now becasue the drugs are illegal and expensive.
Heroin is not an overly dangerous drug, when administered properly.

Criminalisation of prostitution-related activity is causing the problems, like criminalisation of drugs causes crime.

I would not be happy with his view of women as objects to be purchased......

Is it so different to all the Kevs out on a Saturday night buying alco pops for a girls to try and get a jump at the end of the night?

What about whether men who used prostitutes would be happy for their wives/girlfriends to be a prostitute? That always throws up some interesting double standards.

Would the good people of STW ever have a relationship with someone who is or used to be a prostitute?

The girls I met had horrendous difficulties with relationships because of how men viewed them and some of them came across as very morally minded and 'non-promiscuous' when 'out of character' so to speak.

Criminalisation of prostitution-related activity is causing the problems, like criminalisation of drugs causes crime.

Correctomundo.

I dont think that view is quiet accurate. I think some men would be happy seeing a prostitute for occasional 'somebody new' sex, but would want to keep thier partner/marriage at the same time. That would imply selfishness/greed rather than unhappiness.

It could mean a very different libido between partners and one finding a way to "vent" rather than leave as the rest of the relationship is fine. However I would still suggest the relationship is flawed.

I would not be happy with his view of women as objects to be purchased as I would be concerned he would view all women in such an empty way and to be honest, I would see him as kind of cheap and sleezy.

He's not purchasing the woman though is he, he is purchasing a service. Just like you might pay someone to do your gardening, or give you a waxing. The only reason anyone sees this as any different is because it involves soemthing which apparently should be restricted to between two people in a relationship. That's a slightly odd and very outdated view by anyones book. In my opinion your partner should be the person you talk to about problems and your relationship, not a therapist, but I dont consider therapy to be some sort of immoral earnings.

As Sooty said - "Some would argue that you always pay for sex, one way or the other"

"The only reason anyone sees this as any different is because it involves soemthing which apparently should be restricted to between two people in a relationship. That's a slightly odd and very outdated view by anyones book."

Bang on the money Coffee!

What about whether men who used prostitutes would be happy for their wives/girlfriends to be a prostitute? That always throws up some interesting double standards.

Not sure it's double standards unless that person would happily USE a prostitute but wouldnt like their other half to be one.

I realise some of my previous comments now look like I'm advocating scenes like the last days of Rome, I'm not, I just think things shouldnt be quite so looked down upon and are more complex than good or bad. I wouldnt like my other half to be a prostitute, but likewise I woudlnt want to use one. Doesnt mean I think they're bad people for making that choice.

Not sure it's double standards unless that person would happily USE a prostitute but wouldnt like their other half to be one.

That's exactly the double standard that I suspect most men who use or have used prostitutes would have.

I wonder if most men who have used prostitutes feel like they are "forced to" by their wives/GFs lack of interest though. I can't imagine wanting to use one if you're happy with what you have at home.

~POLL ALERT~

How many people on here can 100% say they are happy with there "other half"?

Moi 🙂 Not married but been 11 years now 😀

Rude Boy - if addicts could get free drugs, why would there be a need to rob the dispensaries? They are targeted now becasue the drugs are illegal and expensive.

Moses; Chemists and GPs have been robbed/burgled by organised criminals, rather than a few desperate addicts. Pharmaceutical quality Diamorphine is loads more valuable than skanky street Brown.

Heroin is not an overly dangerous drug, when administered properly.

Yet an incredibly dangerous one, if administered improperly.

Sorry, I see your points, but drugs like Heroin are illegal for good reason, because they are bloody dangerous, in medical and social terms. And what about other drugs like Crack, Coke, Speed, Skunk, Ketamine, Ecstasy, etc? All of which can be very damaging and dangerous.

Giving out free Smack would be like putting a sticking plaster over a severed artery. The issues that lie behind drug addiction, crime and prostitution should be addressed.

coffeeking - Member
I wonder if most men who have used prostitutes feel like they are "forced to" by their wives/GFs lack of interest though. I can't imagine wanting to use one if you're happy with what you have at home.

Ah, so it's the woman's fault? I didn't realise! 😉

Ah, so it's the woman's fault? I didn't realise!

I'm not even going to begin arguing, as nothing I say will be right 🙂

RudeBoy- I disagree with some of the above, but it'd take too long to write why.
But you're right, we need to address the issues behind social problems.

(And Sofatester, I'm 100% happy with my MrsM. Well, 99%)

we do need to address the issues behind drug use but our current policies serve only to make gansters/criminals richer , criminalise addicts and cost an absolute fortune fighting an[other] unwinable war.

Moses, I've worked in and around such services. Seen all sorts of different 'programs' tried; most fail.

Got to look at the underlying issues. Got to tackle them. Until that is done, then drug abuse, crime and prostitution will sadly continue.

Prevention leads to a lack of need to Cure.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say it's wrong. . I can't see how anyone could live with knowing that's what their daughter, sister etc. did for a living therefore I can't support it being legalised.

bevause of the money? they'd be doing it anyway- just not for cash.

Its a very funny subject isnt it,bound up in so many social rules yet not in any logic.