[Closed] Today, if you're English...

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LHS, The Vanguard class submarines are British (Royal Navy) and are all based in Scotland, how is that English?

Submarines in general - invented by William Bourne

I'm sorry, but you can't separate an instrument of war from War itself.

Yes you can, easily, unless you have a comeplete lack of self-control and get all wound up by the unpleasnatry of war whenever you see a weapon. I can look at the spitfire as a nice piece of engineering, regardless of what it was used for. I have massive admiration for the guidance electronics in guided missiles, I think they're great. Of course blowing people up isn't nice though, but thats entirely seperate. And there's the positive spin you can always use on "better" weapons - the better they are, generally (these days) the less damage is done to civilians and the more decisive a blow can be, with luck reducing overall damage on the road to victory.

Ok, i can see I've ruffled a few feathers...

My point is, the the Spitfire, along with the Hurricane, and all other military hardware, were developed as part of the British war effort, and considered British, not English. For English Nationalists to hijack the Spitfire as a symbol of Englishness, regardless of whatever petty excuse they might try to hide behind, is insulting to Britain and all those who fought for British freedom. Indeed, Spitfires were equipped with American Browning machine guns, and parts were made all over the British Isles, as well as abroad, by workers from all over the Commonwealth. IE, it's not uniquely or distinctly 'English'. History books don't talk about the Spitfire as 'English', do they?

Anyway, back on topic:

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England to me. Not all of this is solely english and for me its very hard to separate my love for britain and england but.........

The land of green rolling hills and farmland shaped by the actions of mankind over millennia. A pint of ale sat outside a thatched pub on a spring day after a walk across the moors. Cricket on the village green.

My great grandparents farm. Unchanged for hundreds of years.

A land of thinkers and doers. A land of tolerance and eccentricity.

A land of diversity in its peoples and its countryside.

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Hmm, but stuff like the Spitfire were planned and funded by the British Govt, surely? Does that count? Personally I don't think so.

English things to me: Cricket, Morris Dancing, Magna Carta, Civil War, Levellers, Alfred, Saxon art, Tea and Scones and so on. I'd not want to include anything paid for by the British govt or British Economy... I think you'd have a hard time find things distinctively English and not British after say the Act of Union with Scotland...

Edit: And the language and a lot of its literature.

Ah yes football that famous Greek game.

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Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over. Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?

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TM - underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?

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Bit pointless claiming football as 'English'

Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.

IE, 'English'.

Molgrips; d'you want a fight, or what? 😀

As far as I'm concerned, an item can only really be classified as "belonging to" or emblematic of a country if it was primarily conceived, designed and built in that country. If you WANT to separate it into a national thing, then the spitfire is English. Part of the British war effort, but it's English designed and made. That doesn't detract from other parts of the british isles' participation in the war unless you think that somehow the plane was scottish/welsh etc, they had other contributions. The whole point I made in the other thread is that I rarely consider myself anything, if I'm forced to decide I'm English. If you ask me what the spitfire signifies, it's the british war effort, if you ask me who made it it's the English. We're a union, workign together, but that doesn't mean each side can't claim its own contribution to that effort.

Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.

Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)

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Coffeeking +1

Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)

Nope. The Spitfire is historically considered as 'British', rather than 'English'. Football is recognised as an 'English' game.

Next.

Some of this stuff is going over some of your heads like an English Electric lightning...

I think that something being defined as 'of' a country would be defined as who currently owns it. Try telling the Brazilians that football's not their game.

Same goes for the English language in truth. Just because it was invented here doesn't mean it's emblematic of us any more.

My point re Engish v British is that after a certain point, our country is no longer England but Britain, so our achievements cannot be seperated out into the different regions of Britain. Engineering etc was made possible by the British economy, not the English one.

I would say again that something English in this context has to be primarily associated with England historically and currently. This is not true of football, or the language. Cricket is arguable, since it's mainly an English game in Britain (being not played much in the other parts) and it's really only played in the ex-empire countries as a consequence of British rule. I say arguable, since India for example support the game better than we do.

Submarines in general - invented by William Bourne

Although William Bourne designed a prototype submarine in 1578, the idea was nothing new and it is not know (although speculated) if this design was used by Cornelius Jacobszoon (a Dutchman) in the first successful submarine in 1620, therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.

Talkemother

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

That is all.

Do you understand?

Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over.

A ridiculous arguement. How would the Scots feel to know that golf is no longer theirs? Or the welsh no longer had umm, err, oh nevermind.

Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?

Except the Welsh, obviously.
Football, Cricket and Rugby are English, I'm only partially English and I know that.

TM - underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?

the underground may have been but the map is certainly an iconic design, by Harry Beck, an englishman
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damn it I bit

Ale time

therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.

I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

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I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

Wow, that's such a convincing argument I must be wrong... 🙄

All of these debates about what can count as English just show up how silly the whole concept it - most of the good things that have come about are a result of collaborations, often between people from all sorts of different countries and backgrounds.

Picking a tiny area of an already small island and deciding to be 'proud' of things from inside those boundaries is somewhat weird imo.

I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

The combination of a practical yet beautiful design with the immense skill and courage of the pilots make the Spitfire a powerful icon of wartime England. Learn about the remarkable man who - against all odds - created its revolutionary design. Read about the Merlin engine. And discover the ways we've come to remember the Spitfire today, such as airshows, war movies and Airfix models!
It's of the internet so it must be true.

Talkemada,

Why don't you just leave it and accept that there are varying opinions. Ok? Best of luck.

Because, just like his tiresome banned alter-egos, he's sadly incapable.

The Spitfire is actually derived from the Supermarine Seaplane racers - undoubtedly not for war, and also undoubtedly English. If you choose to get 'offended' by these facts then you're even more stupid than your previous guises amply illustrated.

Oh, and as for reclaiming it from the 'English' nationalists. Spot the obvious clue in the name BNP...

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

That is all.

Do you understand?

It's a 'plane designed by an Englishman, built in England. As a symbol of 'Englishness', or 'England', it's inappropriate.

Do [i]you[/i] understand? 🙄

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!

😆

POST OF THE DAY!

To be honest, I don't really get the Basil Fawlty 'don't mention the war' thing anyway.

So... we managed to defeat fascism, but we're not allowed to talk about it in case someone spills their tea in horror at the very idea of such a thing.

Does this seem inherently contradictory to anyone else too

It's a 'plane designed by an Englishman, built in England. As a symbol of 'Englishness', or 'England', it's inappropriate [b]IMO[/b].

Do you understand?

Fixed it for you...

The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.

The Spitfire was designed by a Brit. Designed and built in Britain by Brits. Therefore it is a British symbol.

Understand?

Eddie the eagle; English or British? (He was born in Colchester...)

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For Gods sake it's not a symbol of England never has been and never will be. It's a symbol of briliant English design like all the other wonderful feats of engineering on this post.

The Spitfire was designed by a Brit. Designed and built in Britain by Brits. Therefore it is a British symbol.

Understand?

That Brit was born in Stoke. That also makes him English, and therefore also an English design.

I suppose as there are more daffodils (definitely) and thistles (possibly) in England than either of 'their' countries, these should be English too, rather than Welsh or Scottish. Perhaps the Welsh Dragon is actually the British Dragon?

Great thread!
Superb Tags!
Loving most of the pictures.
Top quality squabbling!

Had to go to the Doctors today for a 'well man' check. French doctor was asking me about my drinking habits. He told me they were very English!!! What a day to be told that. I was so proud!!! I rushed home opened a beer, and put the Pistols on full blast. God Save the Queen of course.

Happy St Georges day! 🙂

It's a symbol of briliant English design

What, Eddie the Eagle??? 😯

Just for Strato...

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Well, it is Friday! 😀

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If there's going to be a fight it better be by the Marquess of Queensbury's rules (but don't mention that John Graham Chambers was welsh!)

Can we get back onto great English things. My favourite building:

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Just wonderful

There's a f***in' amazing amount of ARGUING on this thread!, mostly between English people!

ARGUING was invented by us Scots 🙂

Spitfire - designed by someone from Stoke, therefore it is a Stoke invention and a symbol of Stokiness - you southerners can keep your mitts off!

Ok look. Perhaps I need to spell this out:

There is a lot of confusion as to what makes something English rather than British. It's made complicated by the fact that people don't really understand why England can be a country and yet not a country at the same time.

Do you think someone in America have this argument about things being designed in say Michigan being an American symbol? No - it's because they see themselves as part of a whole.. apart from some people in Texas.

FWIW Badgers are a symbol of Wisconsin. But badgers are widespread all over the Northern hemisphere. [b]It's not about where the things are from, but about association with that region[/b]. Spitfires are associate with the Battle of Britain and the British war effort, hence a symbol of Britain.

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😀

most of what we have achieved over the last 200 years has been done collectively as Britian... so, as demonstrated above, it becomes farcical to try and split out the achievements of the individual home nations.

To say that the Spitfire is English is like saying the QE2 (or Queen Mary) is Scottish, the Titanic Irish or the Mulberry Harbour* is Welsh - nonsense.

They're all British. Were conceived, designed, built and paid for as British. The people of that time overwhelmingly considered themselves British, albeit with their own local identity

* Might have struggled on this one!

molgrips - Member
[s]Spitfires are[/s] [b]I[/b] associate with the Battle of Britain and the British war effort, hence [b]I see it as[/b] a symbol of Britain.

Sorted it out for you too. Lot of this going on today... People being confused between their opinions and actual fact.

molgrips, read the original quote, it was about great english designs and great english designers. Not what the products symbolise but the people behind them. Something, that IMPO, really characterises England and everything that is great about it.

If some people want to interpret it a different way and argue about the war etc then fine, you have made your point, best of luck, move on.

edit: FWIW, i couldn't give a flying **** about badgers or wisconsin.

The fabulous Cosworth DFV
funded by Ford but designed & built by an Englishman in an English company

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Oh and zokes - the Welsh dragon is indeed the British dragon. In the legend of Vortigern there is a red dragon representing the native Brits and a white dragon representing the invading Saxons.

However the Saxons push the Brits west and north into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland, and the largest population of Brits eventually become Welsh, hence the Dragon. So you could argue Wales is actually Britain and England is an appengage.. or you could argue that England conquered Britain not Wales making England the main country.

Point is, it's complicated.. and national symbols are such because of association only and not necessarily heritage. Hence Spitfires and the battle of [b]Britain[/b]

If some people want to interpret it a different way and argue about the war etc then fine, you have made your point, best of luck, move on.

Great. So, we're all agreed it's [b]British[/b] then? 😀

People being confused between their opinions and actual fact.

Yes, you are, aren't you Zokes!

Reg Mitchell not English 🙄

I find it hard to understand though how you can't see the reasons why the English see this as an icon.
We have established it was designed by an Englishman and powered by English Rolls Royce engines, and we have also established that some manufacturimg was later shipped out.
We also know that many nationalities flew the Spitfire.
However it was in 1940 that these aircraft flew out from bases all over Southern England and fought the superior in numbers Luftwafe over the English Channel in what was to become known as the Battle of Britain.
It is this connection between the plane and that part of the world and that important moment in History that makes it so.

LHS - I thought this thread was about English patriotism and hence Englishness?

I don't give a f*ck if you give a f*ck about badgers - I was making a point to illustrate my point of view on the subject. I thought that's what discussions were about?

Oldgit - 100% English pilots also?

Calm down Alice.

Oh and zokes - the Welsh dragon is indeed the British dragon

I'd love to see you go to Caernarfon and say that...

However the Saxons push the Brits west and north into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland, and the largest population of Brits eventually become Welsh, hence the Dragon. So you could argue Wales is actually Britain and England is an appengage.. or you could argue that England conquered Britain not Wales making England the main country.

If I get the gist of this correctly, you're insinuating that Cornwall, Wales and Scotland are actually where the British went, leaving who, exactly in the remaining land? Ah yes, that would be the modern-day English in England, and everything else is Britain. Strange argument, but nonetheless lending more credence to the fact that designs of the 'British' that took place outside of the boundaries of Cornwall, Wales and Scotland must be English? In actual fact, by your argument, the only truly British designs are those of the Welsh, Scottish and Cornish...

You're the one who started swearing 🙂

Here you go you moaning, unsufferable bores. I will correct my first post.

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Talkemada - Member

If some people want to interpret it a different way and argue about the war etc then fine, you have made your point, best of luck, move on.

Great. So, we're all agreed it's British then?

People being confused between their opinions and actual fact.

Yes, you are, aren't you Zokes!

Oh, the sweet irony. Why are you STILL such a moron, Fred?

I reckon Vickers maybe had their call centre somewhere along the M8 corridor - they're all there aren't they? [or India]

Do you think our German mtb friends have heated arguments as to whether the Bf 109 is German or Bavarian???
😆

Oldgit - battle of Britain made it the icon - thus it is a british icon.

I am sure the english see it as an icon - but so do the rest of the brits as an icon of the battle of britain.

Do you think our German mtb friends have heated arguments as to whether the Bf 109 is German or Bavarian???

NEIN!!!

All I'm doing is quoting history, to illustrate that the ideas of British/English etc are pretty fluid. Not for a minute alleging that Britain is only Wales/Scotland/Cornwall.. that would be stupid!

I gave a list of things you COULD argue, I wasn't arguing any of them directly merely illustrating the confusion.

Calm down Alice.

Another fantastic argument from LHS... I think you need some of this:

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Zokes, chill out, Fred is not a moron. Take it easy!

Why are you STILL such a moron, Fred?

Why are you insulting 'Fred'?

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[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West ][i]Frederick Walter Stephen West (29 September 1941 – 1 January 1995), better known as Fred West, was an [b]English[/b] serial killer.[/i][/url]

Molgrips what's with all this symbol stuff?
No one has claimed it to be a symbol of England. I've never seen it being used as a symbol of Britian either, only by you and the BNP.

Dunno what all this havering about the Spitfire is for.

No one would argue that this isn't British...
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.. but the Scots have a right to also call it Scottish as it was built on Clydeside.

JEngledow you complete me 🙄

edit: oh and comebacks are great the first time round, but posting the can of spaghetti picture a second time is a bit desperate. Do you need to come on this forum to feel loved?

@wackoAK

Err [We also know that many nationalities flew the Spitfire]

Fred is not a moron.

Well, there's a huge burden of proof countering that argument from his previous pseudonyms...

can I claim North sea oil platforms as english?

Can we get a big flag up on one of those please?

Dunno what all this havering about the Spitfire is for.

English insecurity

I think that quite a few Polish airmen also fought in the battle of Britain.
Some believe that the Polish are our best (wartime) allies over the years.