[Closed] Tipping in Restuarnts - Wife Annoyed

They don't. Instead, your well-fed behind is subsidised by a poorly-paid employee.

Say a restaurant sells a meal for a given price, and bills it "service not included."

By law, the restaurant has to pay the staff at least minimum wage.

You seem to be arguing that the meal has been intentionally under-priced on the expectation that the customer will make up that shortfall in tips.

In your scenario here, you leave a tip on the table. The waiting staff pocket the tip / share it with the back office. The net result is that the staff have been paid [i]twice[/i], once by their employer and once by the customer, meanwhile the restaurant hasn't been paid their "service charge" and are out of pocket on the meal. Is that fair?

I said before, the problem is that we're neither one nor the other in the UK. In a given restaurant, is a "service charge" based on ransos's pricing model, or is it a way of getting a free increase in raw profit?

I've always tipped because it's the "right thing to do". But really, it's just giving away free money. In the US it's different both in terms of pricing models and in levels of service you receive (as Molgrips keeps talking to himself about) but in the UK you're not really gaining anything and the staff are already getting paid properly.

As someone else said earlier, you wouldn't tip in McD's. Why not? Those poor buggers will be run into the ground for a pittance, are they less deserving because they're not wearing a suit or a little black dress?

True, but some things are pretty easy to define, like a well-cooked steak when I've asked for it rare.

True. I sent back undercooked chicken for example. No brainer.

Once though I was in a restaurant in.. forget where, maybe Nottingham. It was labelled Moroccan. They'd clearly put a lot of effort in but also a lot of sugar. Loads. The salad.. well imagine a fruit salad mixed with lettuce, chicken and covered with ice cream topping. And the lamb was also dripping with syrup. The waitress was fine, she was concerned that I'd left a lot, and I had to pass my concern on to the kitchen.

Those poor buggers will be run into the ground for a pittance

Are they? Seems they pay slightly above min wage. Does MacDs have a bad reputation? Not sure.

You seem to be arguing that the meal has been intentionally under-priced on the expectation that the customer will make up that shortfall in tips.

In your scenario here, you leave a tip on the table. The waiting staff pocket the tip / share it with the back office. The net result is that the staff have been paid twice, once by their employer and once by the customer, meanwhile the restaurant hasn't been paid their "service charge" and are out of pocket on the meal. Is that fair?

As someone else said earlier, you wouldn't tip in McD's. Why not?

Because a) they don't provide a waiter service and b) the bill is inclusive.

hora - Member

Its not hardwork

This man has obviously never had a job serving the general public.
😆

Interesting mixed bag of responses so far. Given the left wing nature of the STW masses i'm slightly surprised by the number of folks who appear to never tip!

FunkyDunc - Member

I don't get tipping, no one gives me a tip or a tax free (dodge) bonus in my job

Maybe you're not that good at it?
😛
But seriously, what do you do and how much do you earn?

I work for a large pub chain and tips get processed with wages and therefore are taxed.
(I am not naive enough to believe that all tips do)

Anyone Who see the phrase....

[b]"Service not included" [/b]

Printed at the bottom of a bill, and thinks that it literally means that the owner has not taken into account the costs involved with employing waiters and bar staff, and paying their wages and NI / tax contributions etc etc is clearly either deliberately "misunderstanding" for effect.

Or they are an idiot.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but even a couple of seconds thinking about it would be enough to realise that's not the case.

They can write what they like on the bill. Makes no difference. It's illegal not to pay staff and we all know it, so if they actually mean that nobody has paid for the "service" then they should be reported.
If they actually mean "give us more money because we expect it" then, frankly they can get knotted.
Although I do tip more often than not, I will never feel obliged to (a tip in a flipping cafe for a £2 cup of coffee??? Yeah right). It's non mandatory and should be treated as such.

Cougar - the difference is that McDonalds - in spite of their advertising, is not a restaurant. They don't bring you the food, it comes in cardboard, it isn't food, and they don't take away the plates. Or show you the wine list.

I always tip 10%, more for good service, less or nothing at all for bad service. I have worked as a waitress and it is HELL. Waiting staff deserve it.

Left wing my arse!
I've been described as a Thatcherite* and am way more left wing than the majority here.
Bunch of champagne socialists.

It's always "Won't somebody ([b][i]else[/i][/b]) help the poor person!"

I don't even believe in the concept of money!

*Cue binners! Want to make it three from the "personal collection"? 😉

Printed at the bottom of a bill, and thinks that it literally means that the owner has not taken into account the costs involved with employing waiters and bar staff, and paying their wages and NI / tax contributions etc etc is clearly either deliberately "misunderstanding" for effect.

I think it means that the waiting staff will get than they would reasonably expect.

Maybe that's too subtle a point for you.

Yes, if it says "service included" they have cheekily whacked 10% onto the total of the menu prices, in the hope that you are too drunk to notice and will add an additional 10% on top. You need to watch for this - I think it is a liberty and have been known to take it off the bill if the service or food was poor.

I always try to tip in cash, even if you pay by card, that way there is a better chance the staff will get the money.

[img] [/img]

these girls are on below minimum wage 8)

I think it means that the waiting staff will get than they would reasonably expect.
Maybe that's too subtle a point for you

It is fairly "subtle".

Maybe if it actually made sense that would help?

Either way, what you actually said was..

It means the price includes the cost of the meal. It does not include the the cost of someone comeing to your table, takeing your order and delivering your meal.

And that's total rubbish.

It means nothing even close to what you claimed (and if you don't already know that, I'd be surprised)

Slogo - is that Wetherspoons in Bolton?

Its all very well smiling when you're working somewhere like that. But what about those waiting staff less fortunate?

always tip unless the service was poor. even if the food wasnt great but service ok the waitress/waiter deserve a tip. in fact i get quite embarrassed not leaving one. I was in place the other week and wanted to pay by card, the machine didnt ask for gratuity like they do in some places (i dont like to use this feature unless i have no cash on me) and i didnt have any cash on me this time. i apologised to the waitress, explained i had no cash but hoped the machine would take a tip. she was very smiley and forgiving, said its fine and not to worry about etc etc. i felt terrible but there were no cash machines anywhere near by and i wasnt driving... theres no end to this story other than if i go back and get that waitress ill be dropping her a few quid extra!

It is fairly "subtle".

Maybe if it actually made sense that would help?

It makes perfect sense. If you choose not to understand, that's your perogative.

Either way, what you actually said was..

It means the price includes the cost of the meal. It does not include the the cost of someone comeing to your table, takeing your order and delivering your meal.

And that's total rubbish.

It means nothing even close to what you claimed (and if you don't already know that, I'd be surprised

There's one tiny flaw in your argument: I didn't say that.

in fact i get quite embarrassed not leaving one

I get the impression that the forum tight-wads are not easily embarrassed.

The emotion of embarrassment is easily overcome with the knowledge you are [b]RIGHT![/b]

This lofty self-satisfied righteousness also has the same sledgehammer effect on empathy and compassion too, so its a win/win

on the flip side was once in a Pizza Express with my old man and the bill came to just under £50. I would normally leave a fiver no problem. however, he paid with 3x £20's so was expecting over a tenner in change. He said if they brought a ten pound note back in the change they could keep the lot but if its comes in shrapnel expecting us to leave half they can have none!

they got none! so I always keep an eye out for that kind of skulduggery nowadays...

What about traffic wardens? Out and about in all weathers, dealing with all manner of crap from the public. parking tickets should have a "service not included" tab encouraging you slap another 15% on the fine.

It makes perfect sense. If you choose not to understand, that's your perogative.

Really.

I think it means that the waiting staff will get than they would reasonably expect.

In what language does that sentence make sense ?

Slogo - is that Wetherspoons in Bolton?

Nah. Been in that one and they've got different coloured shorts (and also a deeper mahogany tan).

sbob - Member

You go out and eat a cheap meal which is made possible by the low wages paid to staff.
So you either spend more at a restaurant that pays its staff a liveable wage, or you are content to spend less knowing that the staff are supplementing your budget dining habits.

I take it you are happy also with the way uk plc indirectly subsidises amazon, tesco, sportsworld, wetherspoons and so on through the tax credit system. Only you are supposed to be more left that the lefties on here and all that...

Disclosure: i have had all manner of crap jobs as a young-un but never in pub, hotel or restaurant trade. I always tip in restaurants and taxis. And i share thm's discomfort at sharing a table with insufficient tipppers (also my in-laws!!)

Bigbutslimmerbloke, tipping of public officials is the mark of a second-world country. 🙂
"Great job, constable, i knew my speedo was more accurate than yours!" "Hey councillor, thanks for smoothing over my planning application. High-five!"

Why do you tip taxis? before I've even got in the car theres like £2.50 on the meter and its always the higher rate as its late. Even uber are starting to use the "surge" charge which is almost all the time.

binners - Member
Slogo - is that Wetherspoons in Bolton?

Its all very well smiling when you're working somewhere like that. But what about those waiting staff less fortunate?

actually they get treated like dirt, hit on and harassed by 80% of the people who go in there, but they get great tips.

[img] [/img]

The real unfortunate staff are the ones who clean this up!

Really.

I think it means that the waiting staff will get[s]than[/s]what they would reasonably expect.

In what language does that sentence make sense ?

Happy?

Now that's settled, you can get back to asking me to justify things other people said.

I didn't say that.

I thought you had, but have checked and it was indeed someone else (responding to a question that was asked directly to you)

However, if you didn't at least agree with it, why did you respond to my post saying it was bollocks ?

This lofty self-satisfied righteousness also has the same sledgehammer effect on empathy and compassion too, so its a win/win

It's instructive that the righteousness materialises when it's financially advantageous...

I thought you had, but have checked and it was indeed someone else (responding to a question that was asked directly to you)

However, if you didn't at least agree with it, why did you respond to my post saying it was bollocks ?

I haven't said that anything's bollocks. Nor have I called anyone an idiot, or accused them of talking cobblers.

I'm beginning to build a picture of the sort of person who refuses to tip.

Would those that don't tip refuse one if offered, pointing out that the service is part of the cost of whatever it is they are selling/doing?

I always like to have a shared meal with tightwads, disguised as some kind of moral stance. Always a good way to wrap up the evening. I went to a family do recently, nice food, all paid for by the birthday girl. Still no bleeding tip forthcoming. Beggars belief...

What we need is a poll to work out if those who don't/won't tip are the selfsame people who micro-count the bill on a night out?

BTW doesn't Reservoir Dogs cover this with Mr Pink (I think he was quoted on Page 5 of this thread somewhere)

I'm beginning to build a picture of the sort of person who refuses to tip.

If that's the case, you may want to re read what I've posted, I think your data collection may be screwed.

Would those that don't tip refuse one if offered, pointing out that the service is part of the cost of whatever it is they are selling/doing?

Although it's not aimed at me, as I do tend to tip generally in restaurants, I've turned down plenty in the past, my pricing covered the work I was doing so there was no need for more, I always said that I appreciate the gesture but there was really no need.
I did accept some homemade marmalade a few times from one customer though, because it was bloody lovely.

Would those that don't tip refuse one if offered, pointing out that the service is part of the cost of whatever it is they are selling/doing?

Yes, because it is.

Except when it isn't.

Left wing my arse!
I've been described as a Thatcherite* and am way more left wing than the majority here.
Bunch of champagne socialists.

It's always "Won't somebody (else) help the poor person!"

never a truer word said on STW!

 

I rarely tip, normally just the change to the nearest note if I do

However last week I tipped a girl in Toby carvery a fiver on a sixteen quid bill, because she was genuinely the most enthusiastic and helpful waitress I've ever had, either that or she was Charlie fuelled - was thoroughly deserved.

Except when it isn't.

This is perfect, I'm ill in bed, Ransos, take a bow, you've cheered me up. 😆

What we need is a poll to work out if those who don't/won't tip are the selfsame people who micro-count the bill on a night out?

I don't think we really need a survey to know the answer to that one. That joyous feeling when the bill comes and someone (usually the one who nobody actually likes, who somehow managed to get themselves invited) gets their phone out, hits the calculator, and starts jotting down how many glasses of wine everyone had, and who had a side order of onion rings. Then starts counting out the exact change. Everyone loves people like that! Don't they? 😀

Ok what part of my job isnt covered by my wages/contract of employment?

Are you a waiter? If so, it's the part you would normally expect to receive as a tip.

Are you a waiter? If so, it's the part you would normally expect to receive as a tip.

It's all part of the price customers agree to pay. If the service is rubbish customers don't return so we are given a proper wage to include doing our jobs properly in the first place. If we then don't give good service we get the sack.

If a service charge is optional and not included in the up front price then so should be the service? If no one then used the service then what would an employee be getting paid for?

I'm not a waiter the rest of your statement is irrelevant as is your first reply seeing as you havnt a clue what I do for a living. No one in the customer service industry I work in expects to receive any part of their wages as a tip.

Well yes brains, I don't know what you do for a living, which is why I asked. You may not be aware, but waiters and waitresses expect to receive a tip. That is the convention in this country.

Your comment about "getting a proper wage" is more akin to the French system, where the service charge is itemised on your bill. I prefer it, but it's not what we have.

You are of course free to not leave a tip, thus ensuring that poorly-paid people end up being very poorly-paid people. Well done you!

I'm betting 'onion ring quibbler' too 😀

ransos - Member
Ok what part of my job isnt covered by my wages/contract of employment?

Are you a waiter? If so, it's the part you would normally expect to receive as a tip.

So which particular parts of a waiters job aren't covered by their hourly wage that the employer pays?

I definitely didn't have any of the garlic bread......

So which particular parts of a waiters job aren't covered by their hourly wage that the employer pays?

I knew you'd be the kind of guy who gets his calculator out when the bill arrives!

No bread? Unlikely

More like well done restaurant owners for perpetuating a system that enables them to pay lower wages to employees who, by the replies on this thread, are apparently happy to let it happen.

He had an extra topping on his pizza! They're extra.

I'm just saying as this process needs to be fair. Why should I be out of pocket.....

So which particular parts of a waiters job aren't covered by their hourly wage that the employer pays?

I knew you'd be the kind of guy who gets his calculator out when the bill arrives!

Well you were wrong about me not tipping, so I suppose it's no surprise that you are wrong about this too.

Here's an idea though, instead of looking daft by making really bad assumptions about me, how about answering the question?

More like well done restaurant owners for perpetuating a system that enables them to pay lower wages to employees who are apparently happy to let it happen.

I very much doubt they're happy about it, but like most low-waged people, have little power to change it.

Of course, if we lived in a society where waiting staff were valued, we'd all be happy to bung them a modest fee we could easily afford.

And the ribs were £1.25 more expensive than the other starters......

I just want to make sure that everyone pays the right amount of the bill, so that its fair

Why are you crying?

Well you were wrong about me not tipping, so I suppose it's no surprise that you are wrong about this too.

Here's an idea though, instead of looking daft by making really bad assumptions about me, how about answering the question?

Well you were wrong about me saying that you don't tip, because I didn't. Are you trying to set a record "for most number of times being wrong in a single thread"?

But anyway, being generous of spirit, I shall answer your question: waiting staff duties are not hypothecated.

Well, I was driving and that was definitely Pepsi not Diet Pepsi

Sorry? No, the cheese was a £2.50 supplement.

Ransos, you said directly to me.

I'm beginning to build a picture of the sort of person who refuses to tip.

Suppose that was just a general observation and not suggesting anything 🙄

Suppose that was just a general observation and not suggesting anything

You've been very useful actually: by advancing various arguments as to why people don't tip, it's confirmed what I suspected.

....confirmed what I expected

Which is ?

I didn't ask for bottled water either. But I suppose that'll be split on the bill too. A jug of tap water would have been fine. I would have said that, if we'd have been asked......

That is the convention in this country.

Which is ?

People will engage in any number of post-hoc rationalisations for being a bit tight. Cognitive dissonance, I think they call it.

No it isn't. Never has been and it's not now. It's a discretionary gift for good/excellent service to recognise that what you have recieved is worth more than the price on the menu/list.

"Convention" and "compulsion" are not synonyms. It is conventional to tip in restaurants unless there is a problem with the service, as a glance at any travel guide would tell you.

Errr... I didn't get a mint.

I always leave a tip unless the service has been awful. This is mainly because service jobs are poorly paid but demand non-stop effort from the staff.

Oh really? First hit from Google for "guide to uk tipping" is trip advisor (the biggest online travel guide);

Tipping
Context

Tipping is not always expected in the UK in the way it is in the United States or Canada. All staff in the UK, must by law, be paid at least the National Minimum Wage (£6.50/hr (2014 rate, lower rate applies to those under 21 years of age) whether they receive tips or not. An employer is not allowed to use tips to top up wages to the legal minimum.Therefore, unlike in much of North America, the need and culture for tipping is much less.

Equally, British people have a reputation in the USA for not tipping, and indeed many object vociferously to the practice, arguing that the cost should be included in the price of the food. Others however feel it appropriate to tip in various scenarios. As a general rule, it is very rarely expected that one tips in the United Kingdom, unless the service is above standard, but it is polite to forgo change, as a comvenience and politeness.

Polite? yes. Convention? nope.

From the source you quoted, but conveniently left out:

[i]"In restaurants where you place your order with your waiter/waitress and receive food, and your bill, at your table, [b]it is usual to tip around 10%"[/b][/i]

Polite? Yes. Convention? Most definitely.

Of course, if we lived in a society where waiting staff were valued, we'd all be happy to bung them a modest fee we could easily afford they would be paid properly in the first place.

Equally, British people have a reputation in the USA for not tipping, and indeed many object vociferously to the practice, [s]arguing that the cost should be included in the price of the food.[/s] on account of being miserable, stingy, joyless tight-arses, with no friends, who then get their calculators out and start arguing over the price of side dishes

FTFY 😛

I guess what it boils down to (in the UK - different in the states with different labour laws), is being a waiter in a bog standard restaurant any more worthy of being more than minimum wage than any other low wage work and should the decision to make that happen be the responsibility of the customer or the employer?

I have done a whole load of low wages jobs in the past - waiter, barman, delivery driver, shop worker, summer camp childcare, cleaner, shelf stacker, postal sorting office worker, vegetable picker. Some job, somewhere is going to be the lowest paid - I'm struggling from my experience of the role to see why it's not the waiter. I've not done the sums but I'd hazard a guess that what I worked for as a waiter back in the day would not measure up to the minimum wage now and at the time time I didn't feel hard done by so I'm not going to be guilted into feel obliged to automatically tipping unless the service is terrible. I'll continue to be British and tip for excellence.

Being relatively low paid myself I'm quite happy to go to the bar for my drinks and I'd also be happy to serve myself and would also be happy to good to the kitchen to order and collect my food.

Isn't that just called 'staying at home'?

From the source you quoted, but conveniently left out:

The expectation does vary from place to place - in fine dining restaurants where you receive personal service, a tip would always be expected (while [b]never compulsory[/b], it would be considered rude unless there was a problem with the service), whereas in the most casual of restaurants tipping is not universal.

And a little more;

In some cases a restaurant may print 'service not included' on the bill or menu. This is a [b]request[/b] for a 'tip'! You are [b]not obligated to offer anything[/b], but 10% would be normal in this scenario if the service warranted any sort of tip..

Being relatively low paid myself I'm quite happy to go to the bar for my drinks and I'd also be happy to serve myself and would also be happy to good to the kitchen to order and collect my food

You do know it's not compulsory to go to restaurants with table service?

[img] [/img]

Polite? Yes. Convention? Nope.

You do appear to have trouble with the meaning of "convention"

From this quote: "In restaurants where you place your order with your waiter/waitress and receive food, and your bill, at your table, [b]it is usual to tip around 10%"[/b]

Does not imply that it is compulsory, or expected in every single circumstance.

Would you like a dictionary?

"You are not obligated to offer anything, but [b]10% would be normal in this scenario[/b] if the service warranted any sort of tip.. "

I see you're still struggling.

Isn't that just called 'staying at home'?

I'll continue to be British and tip for excellence.

That's not being British, it's being tight.

[img] [/img]