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We do it in national parliaments and assemblies. We do it at the local level. We used to do it at the Europe wide level… so why the obsession with single party UK governments? Will we ever get past the idea that yo-yo-ing between Conservatives and Labour (or rather sticking with the Conservatives from now on) is the only way…?
https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1372625366532100097?s=21
Would we have to get rid of FPTP first to prevent votes being split amongst the opposition parties and the Tories getting back in yet again?
...or a big push for proportional representation?
Any majority that depends on separatist movements won't be a majority when they separate
Would we have to get rid of FPTP first
Or parties would have to work together for one election, with the aim of electoral reform being put in place by a multi-party government post election. FPTP has to be “played” before it can be improved on.
We have a series of single party governments always (in modern times) based on a minority of the vote. That is going to get entrenched deeper and deeper unless parties work together at elections. They can fight between themselves for vote share after the voting system has been changed for that to result in representation based on votes.
So long as the tories can have a single party majority under FPTP, aided by gerrymandering and voter supression, it is all rather hypothetical.
The first problem is the electorate, you need to solve that, get elected and then institute PR.
Somehow you need to get the English (yes, English) to understand that the tories really aren't their friends. I struggle to understand how anybody with a shred of social conscience or societal responsibility could vote for them, but somehow they get returned......
Or parties would have to work together for one election, with the aim of electoral reform being put in place by a multi-party government post election. FPTP has to be “played” before it can be improved on.
I like the idea. I fear there will be terrible divisions over which version of PR we should then adopt.....
The first problem is the electorate, you need to solve that, get elected and then institute PR.
Somehow you need to get the English (yes, English) to understand that the tories really aren’t their friends. I struggle to understand how anybody with a shred of social conscience or societal responsibility could vote for them, but somehow they get returned…
Fair point
Never going to happen. The big two will never agree to share power, The Tories (natural party of Govt in England) see no need to as they've been so successful (at being elected). Labour won't agree because if they ever do get re-elected they'll want to have everything their own way.
Electoral suicide for Labour to even suggest it.
so why the obsession with single party UK governments?
Why do you think? Because the two main parties would be far less powerful if we had PR.
A progressive coalition would be very interesting. If people could be persuaded to vote for the party they actually like rather than the one they had to vote for to keep out the people they didn't like, would it change things? Would it give more power to smaller parties and therefore allow them to gain more natural supporters? Could be interesting, but it would take a few elections.
Would it give more power to smaller parties and therefore allow them to gain more natural supporters?
yes
Scotland has 5 parties with representation and the greens hold a balance of power
However it can also cause odd / unwanted effects in that small extremist parties can end up holding a balance of power and distort things - see Isreal where religious bigots get ministries or if you have a large centerist party they are almost always in power - see germany and the Netherlands
I would love to see proportional representation and coalition. But, we had a referendum on that!!
They would never agree on anything and nothing would get done. To many chefs spoil the broth.
the tories really aren’t their friends.
Nor are Labour for many people, especially the left wing Corbinyte Labour party which is still fresh in the minds of many people.
if you have a large centerist party they are almost always in power – see germany and the Netherlands
There's an argument that it still works though. Just like FPTP works to an extent.
If your centrist party drifts off one way or the other it loses votes to the minor parties on the other side. And either correct itself or is corrected by a coalition. The size of the FPTP landslide is almost irrelevant, Labour doesn't have to win over the entire population of 124 constituencies. They just have to shift themselves just center enough to win over those few percent in the middle in each. Which considering it was Corbyn in 2019 shouldn't take much to shift it other than an election campaign that avoids little red books and bacon sandwiches.
Bear in mind that PR would have given UKIP the same power as the Lib Dems and SNP combined in 2015! Imagine what might have happened if people actually thought they could win some seats! It's all very well saying that it might lead to change. But you'd have to be prepared for that change to potentially just be a centrist Tory party with UKIP on one side and Labour on the other.
But, we had a referendum on that!!
That never happened. Are you taking about the vote on AV?
To many chefs spoil the broth.
If concentrating power in a small number of people (there are 60 million of us, and only 21 people in the cabinet), then why not have representatives in government from the parties people vote for? Why should they all be from one party, with only minority support from voters? There wouldn’t be more people in government, but they would be tasked with trying to lead and legislate on a wider mandate. More compromise? Probably. Slower decision making? Probably. More horse trading and behind the scenes conflict? Probably not… that goes on all the time anyway. Read any political memoir by an ex-minister.
We had the chance for PR, but the country bottled it!
Yes it wasn't actually PR, but it was a step....
It was a “change”, but it wasn’t PR, at all. Maybe it would have led to more change. Maybe.
As it stands, there's no sense at all in Labour saying "if we change this, we can have a better, fairer political system" because that's essentially just saying to the Tories "it's not in your interests to change it". And since the tories are the biggest winners of the current system, over and over, of course they won't change a thing. There is no route to anyone else creating a change that will harm the tory party's fake majority. It's like starting your space program with "First, be on the moon"
And unfortunately one of the most poisoned parts of UK politics is the relationship with Scotland which is where in a saner world Labour would be able to look for allies- the SNP are more aligned with Labour party goals than some parts of the Labour party but it's absolute poison to a lot of voters for them to work together (and the Scottish party have literally one policy, which is "whatever the SNP said, not that"). Shouldn't be like that, absurd that it's got like this, but there you go. Like "there isn't any money" and "there's no magic money tree" and "Tories are fiscally responsible" once people believe in a myth it's incredibly hard to fix it. How do you prove there's no dragons?
If you could get people to believe in anything it's actually better for it to be imaginary, because imaginary stuff can be relied upon to do what you want and to never do anything inconvenient.
And of course Labour won't try and deal with it. Miliband was succesfully bullied into ruling out forming a government with himself. Cameron got away with literally saying "we cannot allow these people (ie, the scots) to have a place in our parliament (westminster)". They didn't dare take it on when it was easiest, now it's not only harder but they've become used to not fighting it. Otherism is a massively powerful force and weirdly it works really well when the "others" are people exactly like you that live next door. If satan arose tomorrow, christians would still spend more of their effort hating slightly different christians, and so on. Parties won't ally because they're all fighting for the same votes rather than the same goals
No I've no solutions. This is why I ended up being in favour of Scottish independence. UK politics is a completely failed system that only really has one power left to it, the ability to make things worse, but man is it good at that one thing.
I am massively in favour of PR and like the Holyrood system best.
The Tories (natural party of Govt in England)
You've said this several times and they really aren't. If you look at the policies people want then there isn't a natural lean towards Tory policy. Its only FPTP that keeps getting them elected. Exactly the issue we are talking about.
Thing is though with a cowed BBC and a largely compliant right-wing print media, gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics, plus populist rhetoric and othering of enemies/traitors, bypassing parliament, suppressing protest, etc etc, the Tories (or more accurately the Vote Leave cabal) are firmly entrenched as the party of power and have no scruples about what they do to stay there.
Putin would be proud.
If you look at the policies people want then there isn’t a natural lean towards Tory policy.
Apparently what people want is left/centrist economic policy (just not delivered by Labour), along with hard right immigration/identity politics.
They would never agree on anything and nothing would get done.
Sometimes it would be good if the housework was done thoroughly before we consider moving the furniture again.
Thing is though with a cowed BBC and a largely compliant right-wing print media, gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics, plus populist rhetoric and othering of enemies/traitors, bypassing parliament, suppressing protest, etc etc, the Tories (or more accurately the Vote Leave cabal) are firmly entrenched as the party of power and have no scruples about what they do to stay there.
Putin would be proud.
Yep the Tories are really at the top of the tree when it comes to staying on the top.
Tory reality field is very effective on the masses,makes you wonder if they put some hallucinogenic in the water already.
gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics
Name the gerrymandered constituencies
Voter supression? I get a letter through the for every year, can register online, etc etc Can register for postal or vote in person
I get a card that reminds me to vote
It's harder to vote at a labour party meeting than in a general or local election
The fact that people who agree with you CBA to vote and so the other side gets in is nothing to do with suppression. Should there be no TV channels/ online gaming to bore people of their couch?
Gerrymandering - look at the boundary review.
voter suppression - look at the attempt to get ID for all voting
Both classics of the genre, both straight from the Trump playbook
And yet with over a decade in power the Labour party didn't see fit to address this either. Once they get to the top neither party will do anything to loosen their hold on the reins. The PR/AV vote only came about because there was a coalition and the LibDems seized their only chance to increase their ability to wield more power.
Out of curiosity, are there any countries where the governing party in a FPTP/all or nothing system have willingly diluted their power by changing to a more representative electoral system?
I think Lewis is proposing that Labour learn from the mistakes made by that Labour government, in terms of missed opportunities for voting reform, and that lessons are also learnt from many, many years in opposition. I’ll be listening to what he has to say anyway. “New Labour didn’t do anything to sort this” is likely to be part of his message, it’s not a reason to stick to that do nothing (or do very little) kind of policy now.
Bear in mind that PR would have given UKIP the same power as the Lib Dems and SNP combined in 2015!
But surely this would have been a correct result from a democratic point of view? I despise UKIP of course but a lot of people didn't and it's a failing of the system that they didn't get any seats.
But they wouldn't have had an outright majority, and nor would anyone else. This is the key. A PR system would allow all voices to be heard and force a compromise between those voices, which is how a country needs to work.
All those people who say 'nothing would ever get done' - what do you think happens in other countries? People are usually quite comfortable criticising things in the UK - well let's fix it. PR works, of course it does. Loads of countries use it and are much better governed than we are.
spursn17
Free Member…or a big push for proportional representation?
🙄 she needs a maternity unit not countless billions wasted on brexit and lining your cronies pockets with unfulfilled coronavirus contracts a fair voting system
what a ****ing farce that campaign was
Out of curiosity, are there any countries where the governing party in a FPTP/all or nothing system have willingly diluted their power by changing to a more representative electoral system?
Sort of in Scotland
during the early years of holyrood there was a labour /limp dem coalition. At that time local government was FPTP. Lib Dems made it a price of coalition to go for a form of PR for councils, labour lost control of a lot of councils as a result
Any majority that depends on separatist movements won’t be a majority when they separate
1. It might - because there would be yet more deck chair shuffling after such a split.
2. It’s also possible that closer working with such parties might reduce the popular inclination towards separation - if at least some of your views were listened to, and the “it’s Westminster’s fault” argument is removed.
Gerrymandering – look at the boundary review.
voter suppression – look at the attempt to get ID for all voting
Both classics of the genre, both straight from the Trump playbook
To get a job with any large employer you need photo ID
To vote in a labour party constituency matter you need photo ID and a utility bill
In many European social democracies you have to carry a photo ID card
You still don't need photo ID in Britain to vote, nor do you have to carry one
As for gerrymandering, you have linked to an article by Owen Jones from 2016. I am not sure of his particular qualifications in the field. The current reforms keep the the MP numbers at 650, if you have any evidence that the independent boundary commission isn't it's time to put it in the table
You can't name a constituency that has been gerrymandered, the boundary review is independent, it's nothing to do with "Trump's playbook" the review has been running in various iterations long before he was around. If there was a whiff of dodgyness labour would be all over it
Out of curiosity, are there any countries where the governing party in a FPTP/all or nothing system have willingly diluted their power by changing to a more representative electoral system?
Depending on what you mean by 'willing' but NZ did.
You could argue that to a significant extent the two main parties are (and have been) quite broad coalitions and voters are being asked to choose their favoured coalition based on their prejudices and values.
For example we had a Labour party containing MPs (and members) from Corbyn to Blair and a Tory party from Rory Stewart to Mark Francois. It is perhaps more recently that the Tory's purged their relatively liberal left flank.
It is hard to see any change, any party with the power to make the change will just have one via FPTP - and will believe they will do so again. Labour had 13 yeas to change things and as far as I can remember did very little to change things when they had a large majority. The loss of Scotland either through separation or the collapse of Labour in Scotland means it's almost impossible to see how Labour can win in Westminster.
Electoral pacts could be an answer but it's hard to see that ever happening.
Electoral pacts could be an answer
That's exactly the point.
but it’s hard to see that ever happening.
That's what needs changing.
That’s what needs changing
Massive amounts of pride would need swallowed along with a clear goal. Like the Brexit party at the last GE.
The real prospect of power does focus minds. Which is one reason the Tory party is successful. Right now there is little in left/liberal compromise because the chance if success seems so remote.