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I was reading the following article earlier and it struck me that this place is a major offender when it comes to being (im)mature about swearing. All sorts of crap gets posted on here that is both offensive and/or abusive but posters get away with it because they dress it up in polite language and passive aggressive comments. Yet those of us who fall foul of the swear filter often get banned for nothing more than telling someone (who deserves it) to **** off. Would it be ok if I said 'go away'? What's the difference? Surely we can be a bit more adult about it?
I like the rules as they are.
‘Go away’ has less emotive force and is acceptable. Though pointless as it does not further whatever argument is being pursued. Better to just walk away and pause posting?
Your proposition references an article about the importance of profanity in English. And the varying standards applied to its use. However, your argument really seems to be about the effects of your transgression of the forum rules on you. The reference been, if not tangential, then indirectly related to your argument?
Maybe adhere to the rules and consider whether you really need to say anything at all sometimes.
All sorts of crap gets posted on here that is both offensive and/or abusive but posters get away with it because they dress it up in polite language and passive aggressive comments.
They don’t.
The reference been, if not tangential...
It's *being*, for ***** sake... 😉
I wouldn't have any issue with the swear filter being removed in 99% of cases. If the delicate flowers on Mumsnet can manage, I'm sure we could. However, I don't think that swearing at other users of the forum - as in your example - should be permitted.
Scotroutes is bang on. Being able describe your ride as * or having * up and stripped a thread seems perfectly sensible. Calling someone else a * or telling them to * off if not. We surely don’t need an automated filter to help people work out when it’s ok to swear and when it should get you a ban.
[Mod reminder that putting the first letter followed by asterisks, or replacing occasional letters with them, is classed as swear filter avoidance, and is a pain for us to edit, so please don’t.]
Stop reading the Guardian, best thing I ever did.
It's a commercial website. The owners can run it anyway they want. I swear a lot in real life, I'm quite happy with asterisks here. I think the moderation here is generally pretty reasonable (having had a few warnings and a short ban when the Ukraine thread got a bit heated last year).
It’s not quite as annoying as when predictive text stops you swearing
Predictive text is a ducking aunt!
I was saddened by being unable to call someone a ****. Especially as the swear filter used 4 asterisks instead of 3.
Edit: Yay!
I’m not arguing that people should be allowed to tell others to **** off (although the case of conspiracy nut trolls I stand by doing so), I’m saying that the asterisks are silly and should be removed. It’s infantile.
This is not my sandpit, but when I play in it I'm happy not to be constantly finding catshit in it.
I tend to think it should be restricted up to a point. Where the line is who knows? I blog a few of my bike tours and the only time I swore there was when a bad driver nearly killed me.
Probably. OK here when not directed at other users but probably saves a bit of work for the mods having a filter.
I'm not fussed either way. I swear a bit IRL, but obviously context specific - there are settings where I don't. Not being able to on here doesn't seem to interfere with my ability to communicate my thoughts (which are pretty incoherent at the best of times). Though I do sometimes forget about the filter, and up pops a line of ****. When that happens it's usually obvious what you meant. I'm sure STW towers have their reasons and it's one of a number of conditions we all signed up to on joining the forum.
I just see the ability to swear or not on a cycling forum as trivial and inconsequential - not on my things to stress about radar.
Can we mention S****horpe on here? I've never tried it.
I'm happy with the asterisks. It seems like swearing at all levels is now pretty much everywhere. I'm happy to have a place where there is a bit less because of the asterisks. I get the emotion but don't need to read the words, and I say that as someone who is not averse to swearing
I like to substitute one swear word for another in the asterisks. It raises a smile.
+1 swearing isn't big or clever 🤣
Having fond memories of a DM from GW (or one of his aliases, I forget which) demanding to know what I had written about him to cause the asterisks.
I’d just typed the asterisks…
As you read the infantilisation asterisks as the Evil Word, there is no difference. If swearing is such a problem (why?) then asterisks should be banned as well.
[pornolizer] You’ve already got quite a shitty decent number of arse cock words available to pissflaps use.
Why is it that if someone doesn't like swearing they're childish? Seems equally childish to complain about not being able to swear. This argument about swearing ****ing annoys me. I really couldn't give a **** about it. It's just more of the same old ****ing polarizing binary bollocks. **** that shit!
What about the situation* where adding too much detail initially will ruin the form of the sentence?
*better sentence structure and more thought to your posting will help but often useful for comic effect.
scotroutes
Full MemberI wouldn’t have any issue with the swear filter being removed in 99% of cases. If the delicate flowers on Mumsnet can manage, I’m sure we could. However, I don’t think that swearing at other users of the forum – as in your example – should be permitted.
Agree with this. I struggle to properly describe bikes with Superboost, or Nobby Nics, without swearing. It's the correct approach, and the exact word used is important, because obviously * new standards aren't just *. But it's not the same as using it to insult people.
Strangely, I don't particularly care about this. Whilst I'd be completely filter-free (and allow people to tell anyone exactly how they feel about them in whatever language they choose) it's not like you can't get your ideas across with other "acceptable" words.
It's the other more insidious stuff, the stuff that prevents ideas being given or received, that's the bad thing around here.
I think there's a time and a place. I have a potty mouth and would cheerfully and with respect call a mate a See You Next Tuesday, however I wouldn't shout it across a restaurant during Sunday Lunch. STW is a family show in a way that, say, Mumsnet is not.
I always thought ****ing out letters was weird though. They're just letters. We all know what you mean, it's not the shape of the lines which is potentially offensive. If someone's a **** and you want to call them a **** then just tell them you think they're a **** rather than hiding behind asterisks; if you have to star things out then maybe you shouldn't be saying them in the first place?
As Daz lied about earlier in the OP, you're never going to get a ban for letting the swear filter do its job but you will get a ban for telling another forum member to **** off. It should be obvious as to why, intent is the key part. These two things are not the same.
Whilst I’d be completely filter-free (and allow people to tell anyone exactly how they feel about them in whatever language they choose)
Be careful what you wish for.
It’s the other more insidious stuff, the stuff that prevents ideas being given or received, that’s the bad thing around here.
Which ideas would they be and what's preventing you?
I swear - a lot - in real life, and I know I shouldn't. It's not big, it's not clever, it doesn’t enhance the debate or my position in it.
I enjoy the lack of visible swearing on here. It's still there behind the filter, we know what's been asterisked out. We have a rich language, and I'm not keen on rushing to normalise or minimise casual bad language.
I'm aware this makes me a hypocrite.
Not an obelix or Romans joke in the whole thread, how disappointing.
Be calling this 'Serious Sunday'
**** off.
😁
The filter makes good sense. Google doesn’t like swearing, some magazine readers don’t like swearing, and this site is run as part of a business.
As to the other point here, about how we use swear words (redacted/replaced or not) and whether that should result in a temporary ban… it all depends on usage and the reasoning behind a ban. If things are getting abusive and threatening, then a short time in the “sin bin” can be beneficial to all concerned, including the poster being stopped from posting for a wee while. Time out can be more than a punishment, sometimes the mods are trying to help by enforcing some cooling down time, it’s not really punishing. A permanent ban would be a different matter.
**** that ****ing bollocks for a game of soldiers
you will get a ban for telling another forum member to * off
They deserved it. So did you. Anyway this isn’t about bans or being able to tell each other to * off, it’s about the childish need to asterisk swear words which all use and are familiar with. It serves very little purpose. Who is it actually protecting?
Yet posting a twitter link that puts swear words onto forum is ok
[Mod - we are a small team, and can’t proactively read every post on the forum. If any post contains swearing, in an image or otherwise, report it and we’ll take action]
More likely it was missed.
Can't get the moderators these days, standards are slipping.
Who is it actually protecting?
I believe it's more about maintaining a sense of decorum rather than "protecting" anyone.
Given no one reported that post or other similar posts that contain swear words probably shows how little people care about it. Doesn't bother me, just the double standards that are applied at times
I heard fillter won't be applied if you are a member, coming soon.
people know what the **** you’re saying
Except they don't.
I could be saying ****, ****, dickhead, ****, ****er or twunt and nobody would be any the wiser as to what I actually said.
And God forbid you get creative and rely on the halfwit filter that had the S****horpe dilemma programmed in so a human with a sensitive diposition reports you and you end up with a ban before you can edit it out. (yes that actually happened to me)
Let's fave it, the argument that children might be watching is more far fetched than a political thread on here even reaching consensus. At least mumsnet actually treat adults like adults (and it's not exactly hard to add an optional filter for the sensitive souls amongst us).
Who knows, maybe if this place treated people like adults and didn’t feel the need to censor naughty words then maybe people would censor themselves?
And yeah, I’ve had a post deleted which contained a tweet with a swear word in it, yet I often see posts which are more offensive which don’t. It’s nonsense.
Yup, that's the thing, if you don't censor people they tend not to call each other ****s, or if they do it's in such an imaginative way that it's hard to either take seriously or be offended by.
And I absolutely agree, people on here have said stuff far more offensive than a couple of sweary words.
I could be saying *, *, dickhead, *, * or twunt and nobody would be any the wiser as to what I actually said.
But we'd all know what you meant.
(yes that actually happened to me)
No it didn't.
Who knows, maybe if this place treated people like adults and didn’t feel the need to censor naughty words then maybe people would censor themselves?
Are you new here?
Swearing costs us money. Google disables monetisation of ads on pages with words they don’t like. I get a report daily from Google telling me which pages they’ve stopped servings ads on.
so there’s that then.
No it didn’t.
Yes it did.
I wrote a post which included a rather imaginative swear word. I noticed and went to edit it but by the time I did I'd already been banned for "deliberate bypassing of the swear filter". I appealed but got nothing back in response so I lived with it.
Don't tell me stuff that happened to me didn't.
Edit: FYI it was on 28/07/2017 as I sent a particularly unimpressed email to the mods inbox. No, I don't send many emails or clear my sent box often.
I posted something in the rugby thread to say I thought a player was a prick.
I posted the same on a rugby forum where the "prick" was filtered out and censored, and the post was still removed shortly after. It is an official premiership rugby club forum, the the modding in their is soooo over the top, it makes this place look like mum's net!
They were probably responding to a violation report from Google. See above
Yes it did.
I don't believe you. Sorry. Warning perhaps, ban no.
I was a moderator for ten years. I've seen all manner of "I was banned because..." posts the vast majority of which were at best half a story.
Our internal policy was to let the swear filter do its job, even if it did so badly. The only way you'd have received a ban for swear filter avoidance as you describe would be either a) multiple infractions after being asked to desist or b) a genuine mistake in moderation. And in the case of b) I would've leaped on that and put it in front of the rest of the team for review because that's not your fault as a member, you're doing what you're supposed to do (and I called out a -lot- of those judgement calls in the early days, it's unfair).
Mistakes happen, people are human. But I can tell you with cast-iron certainty that it wouldn't have happened as you describe whilst I was on the team, I wouldn't have let that fly. In the time before or after my tenure I can't know of course, but I'd still file that under "wildly unlikely." Mods don't want to issue bans, banning is a last resort; mostly the moderators just want everyone to be nice to each other. No-one in the history of STW ever got a ban purely for swear filter avoidance as their first offence, bans were typically doled out either for being deeply offensive or "how else can we make this stop?"
Edit: FYI it was on 28/07/2017 as I sent a particularly unimpressed email to the mods inbox. No, I don’t send many emails or clear my sent box often.
Because Microsoft, my STW mailbox only goes back as far as 2019 unfortunately. Otherwise I'd be able to check.
Sorry about my poor English earlier re: been/being. I spent the last week trying to wrangle high school Latin into Italian and had a challenging day today after arriving back from Italy late last night.
Hopefully the latitude offered by English enabled the meaning to be understood despite the poor word choice.
"Please do not attempt to evade the Swear Filter. Have some time off due to an increasing number of warnings."
Swearing costs us money. Google disables monetisation of ads on pages with words they don’t like. I get a report daily from Google telling me which pages they’ve stopped servings ad
Whether the AI overlords are right, wrong, or just crazy this is a pertinent point. Profanity is a significant component of English. Both in spoken and written form. However, it is a component that is used appropriately. And the STW forum is one place where its use is not welcome.
Not sure if anything wrong with swear word moderation on this site? I read swear words as an extreme expression and easily taken as aggressive, particularly, online and I am not sure that works on a public forum. I am quite potty mouthed in conversation, but thats with with care, to friends and peers who I can read reaction. Online I like to think I have better judgement with an audience I dont know as well.
Besides if you allowed free usage these words would lose their value and impact which would be a shame. Not sure why it needs to be questioned tbh?
Though OT I am reminded of a Henry Normal poem reading some of the posts here. A cultural gem.
https://www.inspireculture.org.uk/reading-information/henrynormal/henrys-poems/
Also debated posting this... I read the first 3 pages of Hannah's Trans article thread and was really grateful everyone was so considered and careful contributing to a terribly difficult thing to understand, I wanted to read and helped me. Compare to a recent discussion on another (London based) excellent cycling forum on the same thing, that the language went nuclear early on, the thread became ultra-aggressive, any understanding was lost and the thread was closed. Which way do you want it?
It’s not quite as annoying as when predictive text stops you swearing
Predictive text is a ducking aunt!
Depends how well you’ve trained it, mine doesn’t… 🤬😁
If it's just about advertising revenue then fair enough! Wouldn't have guessed that
I believe it’s more about maintaining a sense of decorum rather than “protecting” anyone.
Decorum is a painfully twee and old fashioned word, but if more people acted with it, the world might be a better and calmer place.
I'd suggest an imaginative punishment for breaching it, but following a rather unexpected warning from tne mods yesterday for a comment, I'd better not.
If it's about advertising revenue then how about making that transparent and replacing the ****s with ££££s?
I swear a bit. When I notice I'm doing it regularly I try and remind myself that swear words are generally just when you are too lazy/thick to think of a better word to emphasise your words!
I'd quite like a word randomiser instead of the asterisks, nothing lowers the heat of an inflammatory post quite like a randomly inserted 'sturgeon', 'cuddle' or 'turnip', the more surreal the better.
The presence of a swear filter is entirely fine IMO, the benefit of a text based format is that you have the time to consider what you type and tweak it before posting (although I do miss the old preview post button), if you can't get a concept across without swearing that says more about you.
A filter is not preventing people getting across an idea or concept and spares the blushes of sensitive individuals who can't deal with seeing a rude word typed out. Where's the real harm?
<>Swearing costs us money. Google disables monetisation of ads on pages with words they don’t like. I get a report daily from Google telling me which pages they’ve stopped servings ads on
Finally a coherent justification for restricting vocabulary. Which is no huge deal, just that occasionally the right word to use is out of bounds. I find the passive aggression on display rather more distasteful. (Alongside going back to edit out the html or whatever gobbledygook that randomly appears.)
I'm more offended by the sites poor formatting than swearing if I'm honest
I’d remove the use of asterisks. But, like Cookeaa, I’d have the forums software automatically replace swear words with random nice, innocuous things. For example,
“You utter ladybird”
“Cabbage off”
“Giraffe you”
On a more serious note, whilst I have been known to type the odd swear word, and say them, I do feel that you should be able to frame an argument, make a description or insult without resorting to them. It shows a stronger command of language to me.
It shows a stronger command of language to me.
A moot point but I look here for entertainment and sometimes info, not to assess folks' linguistic abilities.
Swearing costs us money
Fair enough. Annoys me more though knowing language is being censored as a result of the fragile corporate sensibilities of advertisers.
I do feel that you should be able to frame an argument, make a description or insult without resorting to them. It shows a stronger command of language to me.
Some of us were brought up in places where swearing is a natural (almost dominant in fact) form of expressing yourself. I can communicate fine without swearing, but I often feel it's restricting me from being myself because of the faux sensibilities of people with 'higher' educations or manners. Being told not to swear always comes with a hint of snobbery IME.
It’s a private forum, their ball, their rules
Clearly, otherwise no discussion.
I have never thought this forum would be significantly enhanced if I was able to type rude words..
Significantly? Probably not, I'd say somewhat.
Marina Hyde is one of my favourite writers making fun and also serious points from the ephemera of current affairs. I'm not saying drop the filter and she'd start posting on here or that I'm 0.5% the writer she is, but can you imagine this piece without swear words, which starts from Gillian Keegan's recent woes into analysis of this post Thick of It government?
randomly inserted ‘sturgeon’, ‘cuddle’ or ‘turnip’
I'll stick with asterix (asteri?) thank you very much.
It’s a private forum, their ball, their rules
Pretty much, plus we do at least get to discuss these things and offer feedback, I've used forum' where even that was shutdown.
I wouldn't say STW is particularly restrictive, you can raise most topics and get into some protracted and heated 'debates' if you really want.
I’ll stick with asterix (asteri?) thank you very much.
What every time I type a swear you want to insert a Gaul in my post?
could be fun.
Its pretty easy going here - try criticising bothy publicity on Walkhigland for instance. ££££££ does not like arbitrary words and they pay the bills so fair enough.
I swear a bit. When I notice I’m doing it regularly I try and remind myself that swear words are generally just when you are too lazy/thick to think of a better word to emphasise your words!
To paraphrase Billy Connolly,
"If you can come up with an alternative to '**** off' I'll gladly use it. It certainly isn't 'go away.'"
We tend to follow 'Radio4 rules'. The swear filter is quite funny when read out loud.
If you hear it on the radio then you can probably say it here without any asterisks.