[Closed] Time for an English Legislature?

Yes.

Whilst I generally agree with you, should that be what the majority people of England want, the only reason that the Scottish and Welsh assemblies exist is because of the dominance of English MP particularly during the '80s & '90s when these areas of the country felt that their voices were not being heard.

No - For the same reasons that the [i]IS[/i] a Scottish and Welsh parliament / assembly...

... does that make sense?

A federated United Kingdom is the way forward, and for this to happen, England needs its own separate assembly.

The federated assembly should be moved to somewhere like Carlisle which would be reasonably central for the constituent parts.

The royal family could still exist as nominal head of state - preferably a detached head on a pike at the entrance to the capital.

Holy crap, there was a referendum in Wales?! It's amazing what you miss!

Woohoo! I think I'd have voted yes btw.

I'd also like to point out that the federal system in the USA is a bit of a dog's dinner, organisationally speaking.

It seems to function well in Germany, though, molgrips. Doesn't it?

I know very little about the situation in Germany or any of the other places where it exists.

Just saying, it can be a bit of a 'mare if you mess things up a bit.

A federated United Kingdom is the way forward, and for this to happen, England needs its own separate assembly.

If you're going to federalise (federate?) the country then surely the separate parts should be of similar size. Otherwise it would be a bit odd having

Wales - 3m
Scotland - 5m
NI - 2m (almost)
England - 50m

Something like:

North East and North West
West and East Midlands
East and South East
South West
London
Scotland
Wales
NI
...would make more sense.

Or do you divide the country up on a cultural basis? Or use functional economic areas? Or historical systems?

Not necessarily, CaptJohn.

One of Canada's oldest provinces is Prince Edward island, pop. 141000.

Canada's biggest is Ontario, pop. 13210667

I would add that, although different English regions undoubtedly reflect historic, distinctive cultural traits, dividing the UK up on those lines would undermine the legitimate national aims of Scotland (an ancient kingdom in its own right) and Wales (an ancient principality in its own right).

Interesting questions are presented, though, in any attempt to define 'nation', as we can see in relations between Quebec and the rest of Canada, and those between other Canadian provinces and each other.

Of course! Why shouldn't the English get the right to determine laws which affect them?

As an example: The Welsh and N. Irish get free prescriptions and the Scots will be getting them free very soon.

Meanwhile in England, our's are going up to £7.40 and item!

WOW, that's fair! Who's going to pay for the free prescriptions the Scots, the Welsh and the N. Irish get?

It's a real shocker (not) that the 35% of Welsh people who bothered to show up for their referendum voted to grant the Welsh assmbly more powers to set their own laws. A no brainer!

The UK is a place of great inequality and things are just getting worse.

Devolution is highly divisive and not good for the country as a whole.

We spend far too much on politicians as it is, so having separate parliaments for each country is wasteful, but it's patently unfair that the English have no representation!

having separate parliaments for each country is wasteful

WOW, that's fair! Who's going to pay for the free prescriptions the Scots, the Welsh and the N. Irish get?

Erm, the Scots, the Welsh and the N. Irish....out of their capital budget.

Each entity gets a captial budget each year and can spend it how they wish. If they want to give away free prescriptions then it just means there is less budget to spend elsewhere. It's not correct to think that English tax payers are effectively paying for an "additional" perk for the other states.

I'm a Scotsman paying my 40% taxes in England btw, so no axe to grind either way.

Spongebob - Member

The UK is a place of great inequality and things are just getting worse.

Is that because the Tories are back in government ?

Yes, but not a separate assembly. Just ask the Scots, Welsh and NI MPs to clear off a couple of days a week while business affecting England only is discussed. Call it a Grand Committee and it's chair can act in a similar role to leader of Welsh Assembly etc. Then add a Minister for England in cabinet to liase with said Grand Committee and the job's done. Oh and don't let the English Democrat Party anywhere near it, bunch of weirdos.

Edit:
Actually my preferred course would be to dismantle the devolution we have already as I don't think it's beneficial, but if that's not going to happen, something is needed for England soon.

don't let the English Democrat Party anywhere near it, bunch of weirdos.

From my limited experience, I totally agree ......... stark raving bonkers.

I don't agree with the Westminster parliament dealing with English issues though - even if the Scots, Welsh and NI MPs aren't there. An English parliament/assembly needs to have separate elections which are fought on issues which concern England imo.

i thnk it is too large. the north is more labour heartland and the South is tory shireland. It is too large and politically diverse for a seperate assembly to refelect regional wishes IMHO. i suspect it would lead to a full federal state eventually- which i have no strong opinion on one way or another. another parliament in that there London ignoring me is neither here or there tbh in terms of democracy

Wan't there already an attempt at devolution in England - which was rejected?

Currently, the SNP sit out of any debates and votes on policy which affects England/Wales only. That seems like a reasonable compromise without the expense of an additional assembly/parliament. Of course, the "national" parties like Labour, Conservative and LibDem don't support this as they like to whip all of their MPs to support their preferred cause.

This has confused some of the Labour party as thye end up voting against UK policies they support in Scotland and vise-versa.

Hi all.

IMO it's most definitely time to re-establish the English parliament - long overdue for me.

The people of England get a raw deal on almost everything. Underfunded by the Barnett formula this translates into the English being the only people who have to pay for prescriptions. English old folks have to pay for care that's free elsewhere in the UK - even to the point of having to sell their homes to pay for residential care. English students face £9k a year fees while HE remains free in Scotland and highly subsidised in Wales and NI. See also paid for eye tests, dental check-ups, road and bridge tolls etc.

The UK parliament made up of Scots, Welsh, NIrish as well as English MPs can only legislate on England on health, education, environment, local government, transport etc. But England never even gets a mention.

Worse than all that for me is the insult that England the nation that did more than any other to create parliamentary democracy is now among a handful of nations without it's own parliament.

Anyone interested in re-establishing the English parliament should ride on over the Campaign for an English Parliament http://www.thecep.org.uk

+1 for Epicyclo, particularly the heads on pikes bit .......

wyrdtimes - Member
...Worse than all that for me is the insult that England the nation that did more than any other to create parliamentary democracy is now among a handful of nations without it's own parliament.

When was that?

I was under the impression that we didn't get anything like parliamentary democracy until women got the vote.

I would add that, although different English regions undoubtedly reflect historic, distinctive cultural traits, dividing the UK up on those lines would undermine the legitimate national aims of Scotland (an ancient kingdom in its own right) and Wales (an ancient principality in its own right).

Depends entirely upon which point in history you choose to draw the political lines...

I'd also like to point out that the federal system in the USA is a bit of a dog's dinner, organisationally speaking

If you're going to federalise (federate?) the country then surely the separate parts should be of similar size.

Why?

And only yesterday, 504 Westminster MPs voted on legislation which [i]only[/i] affects Scotland.

Like most systems our current system of government has evolved to its current state. The Scots have always had a slightly devolved state, dating back to when the Union was created. The current devolved system just reflects that and the ability of a the SNP to be able to raise enough support for a devolved government. It should be noted that while the SNP want Independence the majority of the Scottish population don't.

The Welsh assembly is no more that a very large council. Wales could not survive with out the rest of the UK to fund it. It ended up with an assembly (but only just) at the same time as the Scottish.

The bulk of the UK population and the expenditure is on the population on England. England is a hugely diverse nation with over crowded cities, rural depopulation, etc. Ideally we should devolve more power to local communities to run themselves and keep Parliament for the major issues. However over the years successive governments (of both sides) have concentrated more and more power at the centre.

I don't see a need for an English assembly. For issues that ONLY affect the England we should ask MP's from Wales, Scotland and NI to leave. Likewise if the issue only affects Wales, Scotland or NI it should be done by the Local Assembly OR just by the MPs of that region. Adding another layer of Government is not going to add value.

In terms of how Wales, Scotland or NI spend their budget, that is their choice. That is the whole point of making local communities manage their budget, they can choose how to spend it. I do agree that the funding formula needs to be reviewed, at the moment Scotland's budget seems to be slightly too high, especially when compared to other parts of the UK.

It should also be noted that Scotland is very slowly going bust. The budget from the UK taxpayer is not sufficient for the amount that the Scottish Assembly wants to spend. E.g. Local authorities are unable to provide the required free personal care because they don't have the budget, there are talks about charging for University education, etc.

And only yesterday, 504 Westminster MPs voted on legislation which only affects Scotland.

Which was....

No, for too many reasons to list.

The others should never have happened either IMO, and may have caused more divisions than they have healed.

Wales could not survive with out the rest of the UK to fund it.

I'd also like to point out that the federal system in the USA is a bit of a dog's dinner, organisationally speaking

Why?

Seems to me that the states and the Federal govt are often at loggerheads in many areas. In that the states want more power and the Federal govt are expecting it by default. I have no specific examples however.

Look at the way that the Sheriff's office and the FBI are always arguing about jurisdiction in cop shows 😉

Hyperbole it may be poorer than now but it is hardly got no income without the rest of the UK.

Which is???

Some tourism, little profitable agriculture, little industry, little technology. No way Wales would survive without either subsidy from UK or EU. It currently gets lots of both.

Time for an [i] English [/i] legislature? No. The “modern” nation state is a pitifully inadequate form. For the same reasons that Wales, NI and Scotland are woefully unrepresented by Westminster it'd be a disservice to the regions of England to extend the model to include an English assembly.

It's a real shame that the North East (of England) rejected the proposals for a regional assembly when it came up as by now we'd already be seeing what the possibilities (good or bad) of this system was for the country as a whole. Instead, New Labour (who instigated the referendum) got an absolute kicking - largely due to their absolute betrayal of old Labour 'heartlands', as a protest vote over Iraq, and the scaremongering of Tories who feared the rise of a more-than-three-party politics.

So, a federal and regional system, yes. A little-England assembly, no.

Alternatively, we could just build a big trench/wall between Scarborough and, say, Kendal* to allow the north to throw in their lot [edit for typo] with Scotland. Let the SW do their own thing, and so on.

*A special arrangement would have to be negotiated with Holyrood that would see compensation for the inclusion of Teeside. Alternatively a ruthless Israeli-style occupation and forced subjugation of the indigenous population in contravention of international law might be unavoidable.

Are you claiming Wales would cease to exista as a nation of it was not subsidised by someone?
Do i really need to have a debate about why that is hyperbole ? Again poorer but it wont disappear from the face of the map as everyone leaves will it?

Are you claiming Wales would cease to exista as a nation of it was not subsidised by someone?
Do i really need to have a debate about why that is hyperbole ? Again poorer but it wont disappear from the face of the map as everyone leaves will it?

Take a look at Greece, Portugal, or more appropriately, Ireland for what happens to nations without any money. Hardly hyperbole is it?

Not sure which bit of Wales you're trying to defend, but with the exception of the Cardiff region, the majority of Wales is already exceptionally poor by European standards. You can be as small-world nationalistic as you like, but it would be difficult to imagine a good outcome from the removal of subsidies, both from Westminster and the EU.

Of course Wales is viable - compare it to Slovenia. That seems to be viable with one city and a small population plus some mountains.

Doesn't seem similar though. Not including the South-East, perhaps, but SE Wales is full of people that used to have an industry to work in but are now unemployed. Well not entirely, but unemployment is high. That's a burden on finances.

Now I have no idea about the size of the Welsh economy or whether or not it'll work - but I don't think that's a fair comparison.

You could divide England up on historical grounds. Danelaw anyone?

Hardly hyperbole is it

the quote I challenged was - not by you originally

Wales could not survive with out the rest of the UK to fund it.

Hyperbole it may be poorer than now but it is hardly got no income without the rest of the UK...... [then]
Again poorer but it wont disappear from the face of the map as everyone leaves will it?

Take a look at Greece, Portugal, or more appropriately, Ireland for what happens to nations without any money. Hardly hyperbole is it......but it would be difficult to imagine a good outcome from the removal of subsidies, both from Westminster and the EU

....translates into the English being the only people who have to pay for prescriptions. English old folks have to pay for care that's free elsewhere in the UK - even to the point of having to sell their homes to pay for residential care. English students face £9k a year fees while HE remains free in Scotland and highly subsidised in Wales and NI. See also paid for eye tests, dental check-ups, road and bridge tolls etc.

Yeah I think you'll find all that is Tory Party policy, so if you are expecting an English parliament to change it, then I reckon you'll be disappointed - the Tories are more than likely to dominate an English parliament.

There are no magical alternatives to "not voting Tory".

Worse than all that for me is the insult that England the nation that did more than any other to create parliamentary democracy.....

Nonsense. Universal votes for all, which gave the British parliament its "democratic" credentials, came in 1928, which hardly suggests that Britain was a trailblazer on the issue. Furthermore, it had the support of Scottish and Welsh MPs, so it was most certainly not a uniquely English idea.

@bajsyckel

"Time for an English legislature? No. The “modern” nation state is a pitifully inadequate form. For the same reasons that Wales, NI and Scotland are woefully unrepresented by Westminster it'd be a disservice to the regions of England to extend the model to include an English assembly."

When did the English vote to have their country regionalised? I must have missed that.

And how are the Scots, Welsh and NI woefully represented at Westminster? Care to give a breakdown of the numbers of MPs against population?

Plus of course they all have their own governments working in their interests. The Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs at Westminster can't vote even on education, health, transport, environment etc that affects their own constituents. With zero accountability they only place they can influence on devolved matters is England. Surely the question should be is why are they at Westminster at all? Apart from the UK issues they have zip to do but interfere with England.

"So, a federal and regional system, yes. A little-England assembly, no"

Yes to even smaller parliaments for the "regions" that no-one in England has been consulted on. But no to a "little-England assembly"?

Out of interest is it also no to the "little" Scotland parliament and the "little" Welsh and NI assemblies? Or is it just England that should have no recognition or representation?

Actually I'd say not to an English assembly - the people of England deserve nothing less than our own parliament back.

No country is too big or too small for democracy imo.

"Alternatively, we could just build a big trench/wall between Scarborough and, say, Kendal* to allow the north to throw in their lot [edit for typo] with Scotland. Let the SW do their own thing, and so on."

But Kendal, Scarborough and London are all in England - and all would benefit from an English parliament working in the interests of England as a whole (spending English taxes on England).

Personally I've never quite understood the disconnect between local government and Westminster. It would seem to make loads mroe sense to me that it was a continuum with parish councils being represented on county Councils, and county councils being represented at Westminster.

Might still end up being a cluster ****, but at least it would be our cluster **** and we could walk down the road and punch the lcoal guy so he can the pop round the corner and pass the punch on to the county council fella and so on all the way up to millions of punches raining down on Dave and Gorgeous George. Genius IMHO