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My post tweaking TJ’s comment is still there.
But it got reported
I have often suspected that the report button is weaponised, that must be a real pain for the moderators.
It's like living under the nazis...!
But it got reported
Oh, did it? I didn't notice. Or y'know, for that matter, care. Funny how the people fastest to squeal "snowflake" are the biggest ones.
I have often suspected that the report button is weaponised, that must be a real pain for the moderators.
Honestly, speaking as a former moderator, I'd argue that it's actually underused. Moderation would be a lot easier if people just hit "report" with gay abandon rather than bitching in forum posts. It's human beings at the other end, not a Zuck algorithm.
Consider, "Report" doesn't necessarily mean "I think this is bad," rather it's just drawing attention to something for review. Do some people 'weaponise' it, possibly, but it's was a minority if so. I'd wager that sort of thing was largely personal spats between pairs of users in conflict.
Personally, I'd rather argue the toss in plain sight, or just step back when it goes too far, or I can't be arsed.
The day I feel I need to 'report' someone because they said something I didn't like, will be the day I consider removing myself from the internet altogether.
It's just opinions and words, don't let it bother you that much
The day I feel I need to ‘report’ someone because they said something I didn’t like, will be the day I consider removing myself from the internet altogether
Yeah pretty much.
I see STW as a parallel universe where white middle class angst (similar to journalists obsession with the Trumper), puffed up bantams (the sort who are bullied or ignored in real life) and middle aged men with their snide agendas, selective citation, obfuscation, diversion and straight up lies go at it. In real life I've not heard anyone bring up Brexit since about 2021, yet it's referenced daily on here!
A few years back I noticed we picked up a few drama queens who were bullied off other platforms by right wing trolls. Their delusion of being some kind of internet Sheriffs (we've had loads try before), winning hearts and minds, is tedious and as boring as their part-time trolling, they admit to doing on other platforms and comment sections. Not to mention emailed death threats and the like to MPs and planning departments. There are clearly people on the internet, not just on here, who are mentally unwell. The sad part is all their efforts are ineffectual and mostly backfire.
This is how they should be dealt with
In real life I’ve not heard anyone bring up Brexit since about 2021, yet it’s referenced daily on here!
Wheras for me and the circles i am in its still a daily topic.and will remain so.until we are back in.
Differnt folks in different places have different experiences and i have a family split acoss the channel. Brexit is a real pain for us
One of the things i cherush about this place is diversity of experience and opinion
Just to point out it wasn't my comment it was sxotroutes misquoting me and it wisnae me who reported it
🙂
Personally, I’d rather argue the toss in plain sight, or just step back when it goes too far, or I can’t be arsed.
The day I feel I need to ‘report’ someone because they said something I didn’t like, will be the day I consider removing myself from the internet altogether.
It’s just opinions and words, don’t let it bother you that much
No. Just as in the real world if I see/hear racism, homophobia, mysogeny, transphobia etc I'll call it out.
If we don't, we normalise it and that just adds to their conviction that they are right.
It's easy for straight, white men to say it's just words. The chances are, they've never been on the receiving end.
My post tweaking TJ’s comment is still there
Whilst you and TJ are big enough and bad enough to look after yourselves, if you think "tweaking" people on a forum, presumably to provoke a reaction, is big or clever, you might want to pause before pressing the submit button.
I should add that you are both a fair way down the list of pointless tweakers who spoil threads.
And my annoyance may be due to the fact that I misread it as "twerking" the first time, which was not a mental image I wanted.
You dont want to see me twerking in my too tight shorts?
There is a relatively small number of people who treat STW as a self appreciation society where people to the right are fascists, any one voted Brexit is a gammon, Labour can do no wrong, anyone voting Tory is stupid and should be banned from voting, Elon Musk is the devil but here’s an option on X that aligns to mine, list goes on.
Boris calls it out very well but it’s not abhorrent views that get called out, it’s any view that doesn’t adhere to the appreciation society’s view who constantly post again and again with the same old cliches.
There is a relatively small number of people who treat STW as a self appreciation society where people to the right are fascists, any one voted Brexit is a gammon, Labour can do no wrong, anyone voting Tory is stupid and should be banned from voting, Elon Musk is the devil but here’s an option on X that aligns to mine, list goes on.
Can't disagree with most of that.
if you think “tweaking” people on a forum, presumably to provoke a reaction, is big or clever,
I wasn't tweaking people, whatever that even means, I was tweaking a post. "FTFY" is hardly an uncommon comment on here.
And don’t forget that certain posters are STW royalty and appear to get away with saying anything they want, repeatedly, over and over again whilst claiming they could never have offended anyone.
You underestimate the moderators, and I were still one I'd find that accusation to be offensive.
Modding by stealth will always - always - fuel that impression. You never did and, whether I agreed with your decision or not, I always respected that you'd made one and were transparent about why.
Modding by stealth will always – always – fuel that impression. You never did and, whether I agreed with your decision or not, I always respected that you’d made one and were transparent about why.
Thank you, that's genuinely appreciated.
I always tried to be fair and transparent, and separate out "user" from "moderator" roles when posting. How successful I was in that I don't know, but I do know with absolute certainty that the remaining team and any new additions are doing their absolute best with what resources they have (time, etc). Bad calls happen, sure, but we'd all question any decisions which we weren't sure about and discuss it amongst the team. It's really not an easy gig to get right, it's a balancing act.
The moderators are volunteers and there is/was a small number of users who see them as sport. This is why some choose to remain anonymous.
The reason I stepped down after ten years was because I had to walk away for the sake of my mental health. That might be something to consider next time anyone is thinking of posting to rag on the moderation here. Drac et al could go "well **** it then" tomorrow and the place would be poorer for it.
In real life I’ve not heard anyone bring up Brexit since about 2021, yet it’s referenced daily on here!
Wheras for me and the circles i am in its still a daily topic.and will remain so.until we are back in.
It comes up fairly regularly in my circles, and it doesn't even affect me beyond making it a pain to visit/be visited by those still on the island... Those who tend to bring it up it affects even less.
You dont want to see me twerking in my too tight shorts?
Please do. I accept the ban in advance for provoking this.
And don’t forget that certain posters are STW royalty and appear to get away with saying anything they want, repeatedly, over and over again whilst claiming they could never have offended anyone.
That’s news to me. I’ve warned people I know personally on here for their behaviour, others have even had a ban. There is no favouritism at all, anyone who knows me will tell you I’m exactly the same off the forum. Act like a dick wether you’re a friend or not and I will tell you not to.
Please do. I accept the ban in advance for provoking this.
I still don't think it would be worth it.
I always find it interesting that those whose views lean to the right see the forum as left leaning, while I know some of the lefties feel a sizeable right-wing presence. Much like the BBC getting attacked by both sides, this probably means the forum is more balanced than either group feels it to be.
anyone who knows me will tell you I’m exactly the same off the forum.
I can confirm, Drac is also a git in real life. 😀
We never had favourites, the notion that anyone got preferential treatment is a myth. What would be the point? Admin (site owners) mostly defer to Moderators' judgement unless things look like going legal and the Moderators have nothing to gain from playing favourites, they're not on the payroll.
We did have least favourites, that was inevitable, "ban on sight" had to be a thing for a few people and even then we didn't just pull the trigger unless we were pretty confident who they were. Fortunately, most made the mistake of thinking we were stupid so it usually wasn't difficult.
Some of the abuse which was levelled at us behind the scenes from a handful of prolific Returning Banned members was literally unbelievable. Seriously, it was insane, you have no concept. I'm half tempted to post examples.
The moderation on here is really good, and the mods are all wonderful, kind, wise and beautiful human beings - whoever they may be.
It's people who use this place as an extension of X for angry political or "culture wars" arguing who let the place down, IMO.
... the alternative being personally biased censorship moderation.
I always find it interesting that those whose views lean to the right see the forum as left leaning, while I know some of the lefties feel a sizeable right-wing presence. Much like the BBC getting attacked by both sides, this probably means the forum is more balanced than either group feels it to be.
Actually as a "left leaning" reader I don't see a very big right-wing presence. The BBC on the other hand is right leaning by any objective measure.
Right wingers are definitely in the minority on here, but that's what you'd expect. The strongest predictor of political leaning is the level of education, with more highly educated people tending to be more liberal, and IIRC the average STWer is more highly educated than the general population.
Actually as a “left leaning” reader I don’t see a very big right-wing presence. The BBC on the other hand is right leaning by any objective measure.
My right wing parents will tell you that BBC is run by communists and will not be persuaded otherwise.
The BBC on the other hand is right leaning by any objective measure.
I'm not sure. I see the BBC as an extension of The Establishment. I guess that might be viewed as conservative (with a small."c") and hence there's a perception that they are also right leaning by default, but that probably only applies to politics. I don't think they are right leaning when it comes to, for instance, social issues. That's the problem when trying to place everything/everyone on a simple Left-Right axis.
Wheras for me and the circles i am in its still a daily topic
That must be a drag. You've just been on your holibobs to NZ, don't tell me it was the hot topic on everybody's lips down there as well.
You sure it's not the man in the mirror, ever thought of asking him to change his ways?
In real life I’ve not heard anyone bring up Brexit since about 2021, yet it’s referenced daily on here
Good for you I'm sure. We're the support office for the UK, EU and a few other spots. Brexit was a shit decision that makes us all poorer. I guess you have no involvement in foreign trade?
The BBC on the other hand is right leaning by any objective measure.
Perhaps you will provide a few of those many“objective measures” as evidence, because what I suspect you really mean is “ The BBC on the other hand is right leaning as an objective measure subjective opinion”
Brexit was a shit decision that makes us all poorer
Shit decision or not it never crops up as a topic of day-to-day conversation. If it did it would be met with groans, people changing the subject or moving away from the person bringing it up.
The only time it does is when a person steers the conversation in that direction.
I view the forum as right leaning becuse i put the politcal centre in a different place to many. Ie i see starmers labour as a centre right party.
There are a lot of folk on here who claim to be left leaning but imo are not. Its a function of how far rightwards all parties have moved in the uk in my lifetime. Id put Starmers la our to tje right of Heaths tories
On moderation. I think its pretty fair. I will and should always remain on a shoogly peg for past behaviour. I copped a ban a few months ago and i have no idea why.:
Shit decision or not it never crops up as a topic of day-to-day conversation.
Depends on your work, family & friends. If you’re working or living across borders it’s a daily pain, and a daily topic of conversion. If you can avoid all that, lucky you.
and a daily topic of conversion
Daily is it, is it really. I don't believe you, you are exaggerating.
and a daily topic of conversion
.....Daily is it, is it really. I don’t believe you, you are exaggerating
Agree - Jez is clearly quite an evangelist but I bet his hit rate isn't that good 😉
Maybe not every day but multiple times a week because it effects us constantly.
My family is split across the north sea as are several of my friends families.
Often i run into situations where brexit has made life more difficult
Living in Scotland it remains part of the politcal discourse as we still have pro europe parties.
Brexits pernicious effects are all around us.
Daily is it
for me yeah, during the week. A LOT of my customers have sites all over Europe, they all want IT shipping there.
Shit decision or not it never crops up as a topic of day-to-day conversation. If it did it would be met with groans, people changing the subject or moving away from the person bringing it up.
The only time it does is when a person steers the conversation in that direction.
i'm guessing the reason you didn't answer my question regarding having actual dealings across the EU is that you don't, and that the people who inhabit your social circles also don't? good for you. it affects our work on a daily basis. repairs come through our Munich office, so our customers have to ship to them, they complete customs paperwork to get kit over to us, we have to do the same to get it back. in the past we could ship directly directly between our offices and those of customers (excluding the Norwegians - note to those who advocate for their arrangements). if i go to germany to deliver two days training, it costs our office ~ 10% of what we charge the customer (the charge which includes expenses) to fulfill the necessary paperwork requirements such that i don't risk getting turned around at the border. i'm happy that you've been able to move on, and ignore the fact that the country is materially poorer every year this goes on but i find it difficult to. sorry about that.
I see the BBC as an extension of The Establishment. I guess that might be viewed as conservative (with a small.”c”) and hence there’s a perception that they are also right leaning by default, but that probably only applies to politics. I don’t think they are right leaning when it comes to, for instance, social issues. That’s the problem when trying to place everything/everyone on a simple Left-Right axis.
Now that I can see and agree with. I quite like that explanation.
Perhaps you will provide a few of those many“objective measures” as evidence
An obvious one, off the top of my head, is Question Time guest appearances.
@Del So work related and in particular shipping admin/costs. I can imagine the sparkling conversation at non-work social events, discussing the percentage differences and what goes on at your Munich office. I bet people are hanging off your every word.
Give us a flavour of the conversations with your clients...... actually don't! I wouldn't want you to repeat yourself for the millionth time. Must get tiresome having to discuss it over and over again at work, then being compelled to discuss it further with family, friends and anyone unfortunate enough to be in earshot.
not so much discussed but acknowledged from time to time with a bit a a wince - conversations this weekend with a nephew who's looking to buy a place in aturias with his (Dutch) girlfriend, another developing a place in poland, work academic stuff in relation to horizon europe, conversation on the train earlier with an acquaintance just back from a funeral in alecante. Off the top of my head conversations in the past 48v hrs. If you're not living in some small parochial bubble it's constantly just there.
And that's without talking about the news, responding to threats from the US, nato ukraine etc etc
@tomhoward Do you breakdown the price difference then in unison go grrrrr Brexit and move on or do you go off on one about it, admonishing the UK electorate for their lack of business acumen?
Some examples from me. Nephew lives in Amsterdam and is having his stag do in Scotland trekking in the highlands . Now his pals will require visas and cannot bring food. I will have to organise food supplies
He is getting married in France. Uk family will requre visas.
Lots of discussion around visas and stuff over a week or two
Xmas time we have all had to reassess pressies as stuff gets held up in customs.
Pals. Several times tecently attemting to get stuff sent from EU.
Discussions around folk needing care. Brexit has led to a shortage of staff
Discussing highland pubs and limited opening hours due to lack of staff
It must be nice to live in a world where Brexit has not effected your life. The reality is its actually shitified life for many of us and its effects are seen every day.
Enjoy your evening
Thanks you too.
Thread drift into Yet Another Brexit Thread is how threads get closed. Ironically.
An obvious one, off the top of my head, is Question Time guest appearances
You'll have to do way better than that, how many people on the left vs the right from the last 6, months for instance? The BBC website says last week (16th Jan) it was Chris Bryant, Nadine Dorries, Calum Miller, Baroness Hazarika, and Liam Halligan. So we have a Labour minister, a Labour peer, a Lib Dem, a Tory and a Telegraph journalist: two from the right, two from the left and one from a centrist smaller party.
I can see that somebody who self describes as "left leaning"will consider Lib Dems, and perhaps some of Labour, as all on the right, but that just demonstrates it is your subjective opinion, not at all the "objective measure" you claim.
Do you breakdown the price difference then in unison go grrrrr Brexit and move on or do you go off on one about it, admonishing the UK electorate for their lack of business acumen?
More often than not, the customer will have a rant. Wether I join depends on how much I want their business.
I always find it interesting that those whose views lean to the right see the forum as left leaning, while I know some of the lefties feel a sizeable right-wing presence. Much like the BBC getting attacked by both sides, this probably means the forum is more balanced than either group feels it to be.
****ing centrists! Get off the bloody fence.
**** centrists! Get off the bloody fence.
There is no fence to get off - the centre is navigating a narrow path between crazies off to the left and the right of you. 🙂
Much like the BBC getting attacked by both sides, this probably means the forum is more balanced than either group feels it to be.
Not sure it's actually a good thing though - the BBC, after all, sees 'impartial' as meaning 'both sides'. So that for factual events such as the earth being round we have the classic "here is a representative of the scientific establishment explaining precisely what the data show; and here for balance is a maniac".
Impartial means reporting the facts. And if one group feels attacked by that, so be it - facts don't really differentiate - but perhaps one can offer some reporting (not explanation) on the fact that they feel personally offended that people know the world is round.
Apologies for getting back on topic but many thanks to the mods for the note on the recently-closed thread - much appreciated (and I entirely agree).
Not sure it’s actually a good thing though – the BBC, after all, sees ‘impartial’ as meaning ‘both sides’. So that for factual events such as the earth being round we have the classic “here is a representative of the scientific establishment explaining precisely what the data show; and here for balance is a maniac”.
Classic example being Nigel Lawson's interview on Today, where he spouted fake data.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41744344
What's disappointing is that Amol Rajan appears not to get it - and that dissenting opinions are one thing but dissenting facts are another.
The BBC's media editor Amol Rajan said the Today programme had a remit to offer dissenting opinions, aimed at challenging lazy thinking and consensus views.
Apologies for getting back on topic but many thanks to the mods for the note on the recently-closed thread – much appreciated (and I entirely agree)
I concur.
With apologies for being the last poster on that thread and continuing its zombie like progress.
I always find it interesting that those whose views lean to the right see the forum as left leaning, while I know some of the lefties feel a sizeable right-wing presence. Much like the BBC getting attacked by both sides, this probably means the forum is more balanced than either group feels it to be.
This doesnt, of course, prove it is balanced but instead unevenly weighted to the "centre". The "both sides" and "balanced" shows a fascinating blindspot in those talking about it. It also has the obvious problem that being in the centre can just mean you are halfway to crazy town. We dont get many people arguing the correct position with regards to slavery is to be somewhere in the middle, maybe indentured servitude?
If we take the BBC there is the complexity that different parts do have slightly different approaches for example the news/economics is more balanced right wing vs comedy which is more liberal. Even in the latter though its generally middle class which isnt surprising given that if you want to make a career in media then it helps having reasonably wealthy parents to support you during your internships.
The BBC’s media editor Amol Rajan said the Today programme had a remit to offer dissenting opinions, aimed at challenging lazy thinking and consensus views.
I had a lot of time for Amol Rajan right up until I heard him interview Peter Oborne in the midst of the post-B word referendum debate - Oborne was criticising journalists for being complicit in promoting unchallenged the falsehoods used in that debate, and Rajan's response was to take offense at an attack on the integrity of his fellow journos, rather than actually engage in the discussion. So not much different to Kuensberg and Mason, for me.
the BBC, after all, sees ‘impartial’ as meaning ‘both sides’.
They have become aware of that and moved away from it now, to be fair.
But they did soften things a bit under the Tories. It'll be interesting to see how they go under Labour.
Rajan’s response was to take offense at an attack on the integrity of his fellow journos
He's a pompous, self-regarding fanny IMO - as that sounds like a perfect demonstration of it.
What do you see as the problem with Chris Mason, out of interest?
You’ll have to do way better than that, how many people on the left vs the right from the last 6, months for instance? The BBC website says last week (16th Jan) it was Chris Bryant, Nadine Dorries, Calum Miller, Baroness Hazarika, and Liam Halligan. So we have a Labour minister, a Labour peer, a Lib Dem, a Tory and a Telegraph journalist: two from the right, two from the left and one from a centrist smaller party.
I think they were probably getting at the more extreme ends of the spectrum being disproportionate, particularly through the 2010s when ukip were building support; farage is 7th most frequent guest ever according to Wikipedia, whilst e.g. Caroline Lucas at the other end of the spectrum certainly was not, despite being the leader of a party that actually had an MP
For those of you who think the BBC are impartial, they do try but sadly and somewhat lazily they fail to provide real balance. They frequently balance the "left" with right-wing views from spokespeople from shady Tufton Street think-tanks who pass themselves off as credible organisations. To a viewer or listener with a passing interest in Politics or Economics, they can appear like credible people but the reality is very different.
George Monbiot has challenged them several times whilst on a BBC panel - who they represent and who pays for the think tanks etc. etc.
One answer came out recently is that some are funded by spurious charities set up by the right wing organisations they really repesent:
https://goodlawproject.org/case/tufton-street-shine-a-light-on-dark-money-in-politics/
So why do the BBC give them the oxygen of publicity? Their views are not credible yet the BBC seem to pander to them. The "Institute of Economic Affairs" often roll out someone to talk yet they are just a lobbying organisation and who do they lobby for? I'll give you a clue - it's not the working person
What do you see as the problem with Chris Mason, out of interest?
I don't seem him as being massively different to Kuensberg - very soft, very uncritical on Tories, very hard and hyper-critical on Labour. To be fair, I consume a lot less BBC News (ie, almost none) compared to three or four years ago, when it was my go-to news source. I don't consume a lot of news at all these days, for my own well-being.
We can't really discuss BBC bias without reference to Gaza, e.g.
Loving the irony of the title of this thread and how it has ended up. Perfectly demonstrates why.
So to the last few commenters above, you all think the BBC is biased/right wing. But you are all on the left, so it’s no surprise the BBC seems too right wing compared to what you want, or believe to be true.
I don’t seem him as being massively different to Kuensberg – very soft, very uncritical on Tories, very hard and hyper-critical on Labour. To be fair, I consume a lot less BBC News (ie, almost none) compared to three or four years ago, when it was my go-to news source. I don’t consume a lot of news at all these days, for my own well-being.
Very sensible, I still consume a reasonable amount of news but I've certainly limited my intake this week - as there's only so much I need to know about Trump and his cronies.
Personally I think CM has been very diligent and has made an effort to bring stories out of the bubble and relate them to peoples' lives a little more, compared to LK.
I do think the BBC has been keen to show it can be as critical of Labour as the Tories claimed it was with them. And it's arguable that some of the "crises" and "scandals" they've latched on to so far have been a bit storm-in-a-teacuppy.
So to the last few commenters above, you all think the BBC is biased/right wing
Not right wing, just handling the idea of 'impartiality' all wrong through trying to keep all the people happy all the time.
Listening to 6Music news Saturday morning while walking the dog it was really noticeable that in a 3-minute bulletin there were 2-3 stories of "the government has announced x. Here is a Tory politician/ former Tory politician/ spokesman from a centre-right thinktank to provide their explanation of why it's bunk". There was no voxpop from the relevant Labour politician or minister, in each case. It's a small example, but Farage's prominence is a much greater illustration of how badly wrong the BBC has got it over the last few years.
And Kuensberg is beyond parody - after emailing her interview questions to BoJo she should've lost her show.
So to the last few commenters above, you all think the BBC is biased/right wing. But you are all on the left, so it’s no surprise the BBC seems too right wing compared to what you want, or believe to be true.
Nice sneering attitude at the end there. Fact free but sneering.
And Kuensberg is beyond parody – after emailing her interview questions to BoJo she should’ve lost her show.
Should have lost the job when she acted as defence for Cummings during his car trip. Allowing him to be a "source" testing out counter stories was insane.
Not sure it’s actually a good thing though – the BBC, after all, sees ‘impartial’ as meaning ‘both sides’. So that for factual events such as the earth being round we have the classic “here is a representative of the scientific establishment explaining precisely what the data show; and here for balance is a maniac”.
On "balance," it's probably time for this again:
Loving the irony of the title of this thread and how it has ended up. Perfectly demonstrates why
Of course.
I think some of the more overbearing members could do well to remember this forum isn't their personal soap box, where they continually insist they have a consensus, speak for other people and attempt to put words in other peoples mouths.
When I first joined the debate was robust but healthy, with a good pinch of humour. This has changed for the worse. We have members who insist they speak for the entire forum and get annoyed with people who are indifferent to things they are, I'll be polite and say passionate about, but it's raging isn't it. Sometimes things are met with a grumble and shrug of the shoulders, not a western style shootout! This doesn't make the people involved deniers, apologists or sympathisers as is often inferred by said raging individuals.
Wind your necks in. Drop the childish attention seeking, ridiculous exaggeration, melodramatics, made up for effect scenarios and furious insistence you are the voice of the forum.
More often than not, the customer will have a rant. Wether I join depends on how much I want their business
Well exactly.
In a professional capacity IME it's pretty unwise to go off on a political rant with customers and I certainly wouldn't kick the conversation off with it or repeat it every time I spoke to them. But hey I appreciate some people do things differently.
Wind your necks in. Drop the childish attention seeking, ridiculous exaggeration, melodramatics, made up for effect scenarios and furious insistence you are the voice of the forum.
I DEMAND that this thread be closed!! And this person closed too! I demand to speak to the manager of this 'ere forum!
😉