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My other half has been approached about a possible job working for NEOM, based in Saudi (neon.com). I've never seen anything like it....... $1 trillion investment; they're building a whole new economic model for sustainability, innovation, etc and people will be able to live there too.
Has anyone heard of NEOM? Worked/working there? Know more about it than what's on the very slick website?
Also, what's it like working in Saudi, in general? We don't drink, we like the outdoors. How easy is it for a Western woman to work out there, and fit in? Can you feel isolated/hemmed in?
My best mate worked there. Hated it. Too hot, too boring, big salary. Wasn't helped that he had 4 hours of daily commute through the desert but he had nothing positive to say about it in any way, other than being paid well and not having anything to spend it on so saved loads.
Don't know anyone with a positive word to say about it beyond, "that's how I paid for X...". Big Salary, usually some sort of no-tax agreement, usually housing provided, it's all money straight into your bank, which is great but you don't want to waste to many years doing it.
4 pages of "its horrendous" and 1 person who went there on holiday for 3 days, and liked it, coming up.
It isn't too bad if you're ducking in and out but the people I met working there for government departments/projects really seemed miserable and couldn't wait for there time to be up and get out. I had a female colleague go out there just before I did for a couple of weeks and despite being hugely experienced and fairly well known in her field was treated fairly poorly by people out there (but then we all were by client). So it's not impossible but she'd need to be pretty thick skinned.
Neom seems to chew people up and spit them out too.
Pay is huge, tax is minimal, naff all to do though and it gets mental hot. Not really an outdoors activity culture there so you'd be unlikely to get out much.
If I were single I'd consider it for a fixed period, spend little and save as much as possible. Wouldn't dream of going out there with family. If it was UK based with trips out there then that's very different and I'd consider that if the remuneration was ok.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/the-line-have-these-people-never-read-judge-dredd/
we talked about it last year
Have had a few people I know who went to work there and other places in the Gulf.
None of them 'liked' it but they found it just about tolerable on a sliding scale with places like Dubai being a bit more chilled and Saudi being sat firmly in the 'not chilled sat all' end of the spectrum. None of them stayed out there long term and all of them were glad to leave, especially those who were in Saudi.
Personally I wouldn't but if you do your sums, are 100% sure it's more than worth your while financially and have a solid plan to get home if it doesn't work out then the call is yours to make.
Sister in law worked over there for a while. Hated every aspect of it.
It’s basically indecent proposal but with your soul.
For a tiny bit of balance, my dad did a few months there and found it bearable. But:
I) It was only a few months
II) He was a bit odd. I recall him bringing back some used plastic bullets from Palestine once, and then his stories about getting strip searched every time he went back to Israel after going to Saudi.
(So not really balance after all.)
Is Neom the big, silly linear city?
Unfortunately all people who've I've known who've worked there (all 3 if them) would never go back but it did set them up for life. A common grouch is how contemptuously the native Saudi men treat foreigners with a sliding scale down from European men.
I'd rather push shit up hill all day with my nose for tuppence then prostitute myself working in Saudi*
*Unless I was in a financial hole with no other way out
**I've worked all over ME/world
NEOM is one of the stupidest civil engineering projects on the go atm.
they’re building a whole new economic model for sustainability, innovation, etc and people will be able to live there too
They may be doing a lot of things, but they’re most certainly not doing that.
I’m presently reading this. It’s worth reading the chapter on Saudi Arabia. It’s a real eye-opener.
Oh… then watch Bitter Lake, the documentary about them by Adam Curtis
It’s a violent, tyrannical, morality-free dictatorship which ruthlessly exploits its oil-rich position to literally get away with murder (chopping journalists up in their embassies, carpet bombing neighbouring countries, that sort of thing).
Pretty much everything that’s wrong with the Middle East and a lot of the wider world, the Saudi’s have a major hand in it. The ‘House of Saud’ are absolute monsters. All 15,000 of them are basically the spoilt rich kid who’s never heard the word ‘NO’ in their lives and have been brought up to believe that god has ordained them as superior beings to everyone else on the planet
If that’s your bag, go for it
The one guy I know who worked there hated it and came back home about 1 year into a 5 year contract, despite absolutely ludicrous money + bonus if he'd stayed for the full 5 years. As in set him and his kids up for life, never have to work again money. That was in oil and gas.
I know a few folk who’ve gone out there for defence work on ST contracts. They said it was okay, but they were despised by the locals who looked after the compound and what you could do out of the compound (safely) was limited. One referred to it as minimum security prison with day relief. They were all happy to return after their contracts were done and not one has gone back.
A relative of mine is just back from a few years working at a director-level job there (on a government project). He was approached to work on NEOM but decided enough was enough. He's told me quite a bit about it but the things that stood out for me is that the Saudis are a nightmare to work for. Firstly, you're a second-class citizen, no matter how senior you are. But there are cultural differences in that the Saudis above you will say 'yes, that's fine' when they mean 'hell, no'. And the people below you don't give you an accurate assessment of anything because they don't want to bring bad news. Both of which would drive me mad. Also, NEOM is the dumbest thing imaginable (though my relative was weirdly impressed by it).
1 person who went there on holiday for 3 days, and liked it
I went on holiday there for a few days, and liked it. I wouldn't live there.
I was offered a job on NEOM and didn't even ask the salary before saying no. It is not okay. I have lived and worked elsewhere in the Middle East.
And the people below you don’t give you an accurate assessment of anything because they don’t want to bring bad news.
This, but faaaaaaaar more than just general corporate "everything is awesome" bullshit.
Worked there in about 2000 for a few months. Living in Riyadh.
I used to work in banking, this involved travelling extensively, I wouldn’t want to work there for any longer though.
I don’t know what it’s like now but I didn’t mind it for a short period of time. It was for about 10 weeks I was there and then with shorter trips over about two years.
Things I remember, the customs were different, meeting etiquette etc. Meetings were always slow drawn out affairs, loads of coffee being drunk, lots and lots of general chat before the meetings started. I enjoyed this aspect as we got to know the host. Not one meeting did I attend and a woman was present.
Minor details….It was hot all the time. The compound I stayed in was full of Americans. The compound was relaxed, gym, tennis courts etc. we still dressed sensibly but not everyone did.
There wasn’t a great deal to do, especially during the week. “Weekends” we had a driver who would take us out and about so that helped break things up. The roads didn’t really have any rules, was a bit nuts at times. And at the time there was no public transport. (When I was there the weekend was Thursday and Friday I think)
I was offered a two year contract to work there, but after a lot of reading Mrs W decided we weren’t going.
Women weren’t allowed to drive when I was there. That’s now been relaxed, but might want to do some further reading on this.
Our working day was a bit different as well. Started at 8am, very relaxed start to the day, with work beginning in earnest at 9am. About 3 or 4pm there was a break, then back in again about 5 or 6 until 8pm ish. That might have just been because we were on a deadline and my memory is not great! We didn’t, but pretty sure the week was 6 days long for the local staff. Again that might have just been because of the engagement we were on.
I don’t remember ever feeling unsafe while out and about. The opposite, the locals were very friendly.
Unfortunately only you and your wife will know what’s best for you guys.
Out of curiosity (noseyness I guess!) What sort of money are you talking to work in Saudi? Obviously I know that it's dependent on job role etc
For context, my friend whom is a solicitor got offered a role in Qatar and it was paying just under 3x what he's on in the UK (he's on what I'd class as VERY good money in the UK 😂)
When we say "salaries are huge" - what are we talking, what roles, and what % uplift vs average for that role in the UK?
I don’t remember ever feeling unsafe while out and about
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the threat of criminals being publicly beheaded probably has a marked impact on the offending rate
Are you married? Irrespective, women from my recollection didn’t have a great time when I worked out there in around 2017. The one woman from my company wasn’t allowed in the hotel gym so complained; best they offered was a bike machine in her hotel room. Not allowed in the pool, allowed to sit on a sun bed near it but had to wear the full abayah doing so. This was in August so can imagine that wasn’t much fun in 45 degrees.
There’s a reason why the Riyadh to Bahrain flight was rammed every Thursday along with the queue across the causeway, every local and ex Pat went to get pissed up and get their end away for a day or two. Our local manager was a complete hypocrite as one the one place would insist on strict rules in SA but then get a uk extended visa to come to the Uk for a three week piss up. Not a place I’d choose to go back to.
Re salaries, no idea of the differential between similar roles in the UK (bearing in mind that the UK is basically on a par with Poland these days) but my relative came back and bought a £1m house and a top of the range Porsche 992 with cash so I'd guess that the 3x UK salary and tax-free is about right. Still not worth it in my book.
my friend whom is a solicitor got offered a role in Qatar and it was paying just under 3x what he’s on in the UK
This is a different topic really, but Qatar and Dubai were similarly priced when I was there. Yes, there is no tax, but housing, health, schools and stuff generally is very expensive. Foreigners often get sucked into a boozing and dining out culture, which is also expensive, plus there is a lot of pressure to visit family in the UK etc.
If you're frugal and single, you can certainly save a lot. If you're obsessed by tennis etc and would happily spend every night at the tennis club, you'll do well. But a lot of foreign workers find it very difficult to save in reality. Just an observation.
A different division of my company is deeply involved : main consultants for the PM and Design. The fancy gloss promo stuff is impressive, as is the vision of you take it at face value, but… quite frankly it’s a bonkers project and I just can’t see it happening in the way they intend, especially the social impact aspects. Also. Saudi: **** that.
I would never get offered a job there as I have no skills. Wouldn’t do it for any amount of money though. The treatment of women and human rights abuses would be a hard no.
I did two weeks out there for work with Aramco. I came back and told my boss that if they tried to send me again I'd put "Jewish Atheist" as the answer to the religion question on my visa application.
(Either answer results in visa denial)
My in country oppo was on ~4x my salary with no income tax but no pension contributions. Probably had slightly less experience than I had as well, but not massively dissimilar.
3x to 4x sounds about right based on colleagues. A couple of ex-colleagues moved out there with families and did or are doing Ok. One moved back into a million pound house, the others still out there paying off his US student loan. The impression I get is if you can enjoy the 'lifestyle' which is akin to living in a posh hotel/spa complex then it can be great. Could you do a 47 week package holiday?
a whole new economic model for sustainability, innovation
They've already executed several locals who objected to the project. It's not new, just re-heated feudalism leftovers.
Interesting re salaries. 3-4x UK salary would get me considering a year, maybe two in say Qatar, Dubai etc
Saudi....I genuinely think I'd be wanting a million quid a year to even entertain it!
None of those countries sit well with my moral compass, but there are a lot of jobs out there in green washing sustainability, which I'm starting a career change towards in a few months. Highly unlikely that I'd ever go though, my partner has a decent enough job over here, and we're incredibly lucky to be mortgage free in our mid thirties.
I have several former colleagues who went to work for Neom. I am glad they are formed - because they were awful to work with. Incompetent, conceited, sociopathic, lazy and without any degree of compassion. Sorry to use so many words - I won’t hold anything back next time.
Well, anyone that said The Line will never happen...time to do your "I told you so" dance.
Hope all those guest workers socked away some savings before the bullshit-enabled money pipeline is shut off and they are sent home...
I worked in the defence sector for many years and worked with many, many people who went there. In summary, the organisations typically comprised a third Saudis, a third long-term ex-pats and a third were simply there for the money. Many of the Saudis were only interested in being ‘in charge’ but often lacked the knowledge or education to be effective, often in post due to family connections rather than ability - holding VP job titles and some kept well-away from doing any damage. The long-termers were often there because they were unemployable elsewhere and institutionalised - some with serious alcohol or behavioural issues. The last group were often there simply for the money, either bursting with ambition or having the dawning realisation they were working for a completely disfunctional organisation. Sometimes, partners and families found it difficult to adjust to “compound” life - moving back to the UK.
I thought from the start it was someone's vanity project.
Saudis get jammed into "do nothing" and "no show" jobs because of Saudization. Many employers just see it as a kind of tax and are happy if they don't interfere too much. Sometimes there just aren't suitably qualified Saudis in the industry - so what do you do if you're in a niche consultancy and supposed to have x% Saudis?
I worked with some very capable "locals" in the Gulf who were just as good as the foreigners but I could totally have understood if they had taken the other route of cruising along like many of their compatriots. I probably would have done the same if it had been open to me (and tbf I was spending most of my "work" time dicking around on forums anyway...).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudization
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68945445
Neom: Forces 'told to kill’ to clear land for eco-city
What a wonderful model of sustainability /s
It jars just a bit with this from the OP
and people will be able to live there too.
Only the right kind of people apparently.
I knew this things was long, but had no idea of the volume. 170km long, 200m wide and 500m high. It’s like 3400 of the world’s largest skyscrapers, in pairs, all in a line. WTF?!
I knew this things was long, but had no idea of the volume. 170km long, 200m wide and 500m high. It’s like 3400 of the world’s largest skyscrapers, in pairs, all in a line. WTF?!
helps people to reconnect with nature, obvs.
It's like the film Elysium but with fancy dress
I knew this things was long, but had no idea of the volume. 170km long, 200m wide and 500m high. It’s like 3400 of the world’s largest skyscrapers, in pairs, all in a line.
Its about as likely to happen as Boris Johnson’s 40 new hospitals, garden bridge, bridge to Ireland, airport on a man-made island in the Thames estuary, tunnel to Ireland etc etc etc etc
As far as I know even Boris stopped short of killing anyone who objected to his various fantasy vanity projects
As far as I know even Boris stopped short of killing anyone who objected to his various fantasy vanity projects
Erm COVID response....
Fair point, but that was incompetence rather than malice. The Saudis are extremely competent at gunning down their own citizens if they raise any objections to having their homes bulldozed for their leaders latest vanity project
A fine summary of the Neom project
Fair point, but that was incompetence rather than malice
Was it?
nice bunch of folks! 🤔
I can understand why they're doing it - I mean there must be millions of people queuing up to live in a massive tower block thats fallen on its side in the desert.
I mean there must be millions of people queuing up to live in a massive tower block thats fallen on its side in the desert.
Correct.
Admittedly thats mostly due to them being scared to say no to the invitation but they are lining up.
Parts of it are laughable - for instance in one instant they’re saying it’s going to be super green and energy efficient and next they’re saying they’re going to have a ski resort….in the desert…!
BUT… I’d say the idea of it is interesting at least, not that I’d ever want to live there.
If they do manage to build it and find the “sort” of people who’d be happy to populate the buildings then perhaps we can have a giant game of domino rally and shove the first one over.