[Closed] Those striking Doctors,

Fletch,

You're joking aren't you? No comparison between a vet and a medic, the former being a far more demanding course and vocation.

Its like the equivalent of comparing (in my industry) an EasyJet Captain (well qualled, five-six years of experience of undemanding flying) and a Tornado mate (4 years, far fewer hours but far more involved course and job). With a small amount of training the Tornado jockey can fly the airbus. The EasyJet Capt would need to start from scratch to fly the Tonka.

My overall point is there are many who've sacrificed as much to where they are, have received huge amounts of training, have done it for the love of the job/people/country but are paid far less and aren't bleating about it.

Some of these people are talented too, unlike many of GPs I, and sadly for them, my family and friends have dealt with!

The reason for the time to GP is anti litigation, less prevalent in animal medicine.

And all this "they should do it for the love and not care about the pay" guff- how many people spouting that line a)like their job, and b) would do it "for the love"?

Interesting straw man. I dont think anyone would deny qualified doctors a "far crack of the whip" in terms of pay, conditions and pensions. I think it is perfectly right for people to withold sympathy when they feel the pendelum has swung to far in their direction.

There seems to be the same argument here today, but backwards about doctors. -ie "its not fair they get paid so much compared to an architect". Well, same except no one has mentioned the "struck off or prosecuted" bit yet.

Arguably getting prosecuted or struck off is your own fault for not doing your job properly, although I can understand there are sometimes complicating circumstances. However, you can be struck off or prosecuted as an architect as well, and you're much more likely to be made redundant as huge numbers of practices go bust every recession, and you're much worse rewarded when you are in work. I think comparing any highly-trained profession to architecture is a bad idea, because architecture is not looking like a profession with a great future at the moment.

One point which was referred to earlier on - it has been on the record previously that a major stumbling block to privatising the nhs is doctors pensions.

A key aim of all this is to enable more privatisation of the nhs. This is in no way as silmple a problem as it seems.

Interestingly of I had children applying for university right now who could get into medical school I think I would tell them to do something else which seems a great shame. I would say the same regardless of whether the pension changed or not.

Interestingly of I had children applying for university right now who could get into medical school I think I would tell them to do something else which seems a great shame. I would say the same regardless of whether the pension changed or not.

I wouldnt. If I thought my offspring could become a doctor I would encourage them to. I cant think of a more rewarding career that would offer the same financial rewards and security.

Are you sure you are not just saying that for effect?

BTW what would you encourage them to do?

No, I don't accept that we have a fantastic deal here! Perhaps some GPs could enlighten us and this is a serious request. For example, I'm sure years ago that GPs were not sat in their surgery Monday to Friday seeing patients, did they not visit hospitals as part of on-going training? Learning about new techniques, procedures etc that would assist them in making a diagnosis/understanding more?

From my experience, and this was observed from frequent visits for blood test results, I was seen by jaded GPs who were more interested in handing out anti-depressants/towing the line as set out by the Royal College of Physicians.

Only subjects I can think of that would be better/as good as medicine in terms of jobs prospects/pay would be:

Dentistry
Vets
Law - Russell Group Uni then London Law Firm
Economics/Maths/Engineering - Top 5 university then job in the city.

I was seen by jaded GPs who were more interested in handing out anti-depressants

Which I'm sure wasn't the way your "ongoing medical condition" was dealt with when you went to the vets.

It has already been touched on, but I reckon it's important enough to reinforce the point: most other health professionals are breathing a tentative sigh of relief that the GPs have finally got on board and stood up to the frankly ridiculous destruction of the NHS. That may sound slightly hysterical but it's not.

It may be that money is the motivator for some of the striking doctors, but it doesn't actually matter WHY they're striking, it just matters that they are. Without their support, the rest of the health professionals (many of whom have already experienced massive cuts, both personally, and in their departments) would have had no choice but to watch the NHS being dismantled. As has been said, the money is a secondary consideration beside the incredibly destructive policy changes.

Cinnamon girl, at the risk of getting shot down I will try and answer your question. As GP's we finish our 6 years at medical school and then (although things have now changed slightly) we rotate through hospital jobs in various specialties, obstetrics, pediatrics, general medicine etc. we then have to do a supervised year as a GP registrar under the guidance of a trainer, during which time we do post graduate examinations. After this most people locum for a while to get an idea of the type of practice they want to enter and then apply either for partnership or salaried roles in a practice. We then do sessions in a practice either full or part time-depending on family life outside work. During this time we have surgeries in the day seeing on average 40 patients a day in 10 minute appointments, visits, paperwork, prescription requests, phone calls to make and receive from patients and colleagues, emergencies to sort out, and meetings with various colleagues, Macmillan nurses, occupational therapists, district nurses. In the surgery I work in we also see patients outside surgery times if they walk in and ask to be seen. Somewhere within all that we have to make time for continuing professional development- ie learning, some GP's do have sessions in hospitals, but usually as an extra body in clinic rather than for learning purposes. The upshot of it is, that there just is not time in the day to spend time in hospitals training, although it would be a good idea, and one I would welcome. We do our learning via courses, study groups, communication with our secondary care colleagues etc. I am sorry you have had crap experiences with your GP, despite being one myself I have had similar and so I understand your feelIngs, maybe you should consider another practice? I am paid well for my work, I am lucky to have a more or less recession proof job, and I love my job and my patients. My gripe with the government is hypocrisy and the fact that the public are going to get a shock when Privitisation of the NHS creeps in while they are all looking for someone to blame for trying to protect their pensions....

mrsreluctant

Did you fail to get into vet college too?

Only subjects I can think of that would be better/as good as medicine in terms of jobs prospects/pay would be:

Dentistry
Vets
Law - Russell Group Uni then London Law Firm
Economics/Maths/Engineering - Top 5 university then job in the city.

On a similar theme, the one subject I would never tell my offspring to do at university would be law, and I'd cut them out of any inheritance if they ever decided to become a lawyer.

I think it's easy to become jaded with your own view of a profession.

I'd tell my kids to do whatever they fancy, but that for most people I know, choosing law is something they regret. I don't really regret doing law, but I certainly regret not having done something else (if that makes sense!).

@ mikertroid 😆 yes I did.... Didn't all medics? Disappointed not to be able to put an arm up a cows bottom, so have an interest in gynecology instead... 😉

You're joking aren't you? No comparison between a vet and a medic, the former being a far more demanding course and vocation... Easyjet blah blah Fighter Pilot

I'm not going to argue with you about who is more qualified, a vet or a doc, it’s a moronic argument to have. The jobs are very different; they have different requirements and impacts, just as a commercial jet pilot in the private sector is a world away from a military pilot. So in the end its just personal opinion about what skills you value the most. Personally I value the intimate knowledge of human medicine that a GP will acquire over their years of training above the more general knowledge a vet will acquire during their training. If you feel it is the other way round then good luck to you.

No, I don't accept that we have a fantastic deal here! Perhaps some GPs could enlighten us and this is a serious request. For example, I'm sure years ago that GPs were not sat in their surgery Monday to Friday seeing patients, did they not visit hospitals as part of on-going training? Learning about new techniques, procedures etc that would assist them in making a diagnosis/understanding more?

The UK spends far less on healthcare as a % of GDP than most other developed countries, yet any person can walk into their hospital or GPs surgery and get treated regardless their ability to pay. As individuals our personal contributions to the NHS via taxation on average are many times lower than we would expect to pay in health insurance in a privatised system based on benchmarking with other developed nations.

That is a fantastic deal regardless of your individual grievance.

And if you think that GPs don't undergo continual training you are wrong. They do. The amount of new guidelines they have to digest every year alone is staggering. This learning is funded by the individual GPs and often done outside of "office hours". There are also courses to learn new techniques, speciality training to gain specific skills etc. If you visit a hospital you may well be assessed and treated by a GP with a speciality skill, working in a hospital.

It is your prejudices about GPs (presumably from a bad experience) that are guiding your thinking, rather than an actual understanding of the work GPs do.

msreluctant - thank you for a very informative reply. 🙂 I think what I'm really getting at (please excuse my brain fog) is that seeing patients, and no doubt some very difficult ones, every day Monday to Friday isn't ideal.

For example, several decades ago I remember being in hospital, not long having given birth, and my GP visited. He was obviously in the building anyway but it was quite reassuring to see a familiar, and respected, face.

So ... presumably he was at the hospital for ongoing training or something? Hark at me - talking about the 'good old days'. 😉

Edit: if anyone has read my older posts on health matters, they will know that I have been pretty scathing about the NHS. In fact today I have an appointment with a consultant, I had to borrow money to fund a private operation having waited 6 months on the NHS, by which time I ended up in more pain with other problems due to the delay.

Oh yeah, and what [b]mrsreluctant[/b] said. Another articulate, and well reasoned response from an actual doctor.

Cinnamon girl, I sometimes wish that General Practice was still like that... There just isn't the time in the day, as the bureaucratic demands on our time have increased (maybe some more experienced GP's have a different view?) I am lucky to work in a very old fashioned practice with 2 partners, and so we have a very old school relationship with our patients. We know them all pretty much by name, as well as their extended families... I love it!
Edit: oh and good luck with your appointment, I know from bitter personal and family experience that the NHS does let people down...

Nice to see that in these computerised times, the good doctor mrsreluctant has moved from the traditional, unreadable handwriting to the far more modern unreadable, continuous sentence with no paragraph breaks 🙂

Another articulate, and well reasoned response from an actual doctor.

If only we had the time

Mogrim 😆 caught by the grammar police...

Mrsreluctant

The devil in me couldn't resist!!

I think the concern people have is that we're all suffering in this together; there's nothing that separates the GP from other professions that are taking their share of the pain.

BUT you do have the right to strike. Just don't expect sympathy.

I couldn't agree more.... Let the MPs and civil servants carry some of the burden too?

How farcical this thread has become. As tempting as it is to enter this discussion to correct a few glaringly inaccurate statements, it's easier to let the fools argue amongst themselves and enjoy the rest of my day off.

it's easier to let the fools argue amongst themselves and enjoy the rest of my day off.

Do you post on football threads to say how inane they are and that you have better things to do?
I would have better things to do on my day off!

I think the concern people have is that we're all suffering in this together

Looks like you have swallowed the Tory party's PR, hook, line and sinker.

there's nothing that separates the GP from other professions that are taking their share of the pain.

Nobody is willingly "taking their share of the pain". They are all trying to maximise their return in times when their negotiating position is weaker than in the past due to less money being available overall. The difference seems to me that the Docs are a target due to their percieved superiorty and higher level of pay, rather than actually having an unaffordable pension scheme.

Combine this with Lansley's get rich quick scheme for his private healthcare chronies and you have some angry doctors who we should be supporting.

Well I think the Civil Servants will, but MPs?! I'll be down my GP suffering from hat and short ingestion if that happens!!

Looks like you have swallowed the Tory party's PR, hook, line and sinker.

I know Governments can manipulate unemployment stats however I dont think its PR that unemployment is rising and many people are going through a period of significant hardship and uncertainty.
Most people feel that in spite of the changes that the disposable income of relatively wealthy doctors is not a cause that they can unite behind.

Nobody is willingly "taking their share of the pain". They are all trying to maximise their return

So are you now saying its every man for himself? and you still think we should support striking doctors?

I think the concern people have is that we're all suffering in this together; there's nothing that separates the GP from other professions that are taking their share of the pain.

My concern is that we're all getting screwed in this together. For that reason the health care professions have my full support in their fight against a government which has no commitment to the NHS beyond viewing it as a new found source of profit for themselves and their friends.

And a government which has no mandate whatsoever from the electorate to carry out the upheavals which they are currently engaged in. Indeed they pledged the electorate that they would not interfere in NHS and instead leave it in the capable hands of healthcare professionals. Liars.

[quote=surfer said]
I know Governments can manipulate unemployment stats however I dont think its PR that unemployment is rising and many people are going through a period of significant hardship and uncertainty.

"UK unemployment falls by 51,000"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18518286

😕

So are you now saying its every man for himself? and you still think we should support striking doctors?

Yep

Because, selfishly, I value a well paid and highly motivated health service. I want fixing when I break.

"UK unemployment falls by 51,000"

Then the term "hook line and sinker" may refer to you.

Lansley on R4 right now!

[edit]
Ooooh, it's taken Lansley at least three minutes of live interview before he bailed out of a moderate-to-difficult question about leadership with the old "financial circumstances we inherited" line. Chapeau!

easygirl - Member
it's not like they work in a job like IT where anyone can be trained up in a short time, they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

HA HA HA ROFL LMFAO

Maybe you should have a think about "IT" and stop generlising, FWIW I've spent 20 years in IT, its taken me that long to get to my level, I don't earn anywhere what has been quoted as an average Doctors salary, and my 1 x company and 3 time private pensions will net me about 17k above the state pension per annum when I retire to live on.

Oh, and as I write I've worked 49hrs with no overtime pay since Sunday night this week, just a day and a half to go until the weekend and then I start a project deadline which ends 12th July including working weekends.

I believe the appropriate phrase is "...calm down dear..."

I think we should have an experiment where everyone gets paid exactly the same regardless of the job they do. That would be awesome.

What could go wrong?

jfletch - Member
I think we should have an experiment where everyone gets paid exactly the same regardless of the job they do. That would be awesome.

What could go wrong?

The Daily Mail would wind up?

they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

Many of these figures are pulled out of the air.

As previously mentioned the pension reform has much to do with nhs privatisation.

If civil service and especially mp's reform their pension to pay more and work to 68 they can change mine too.

The image of rich golf playing medics who are never at work is somewhat outdated. That said it is far from a bad lot but an easy life it is not.

The image of rich golf playing medics who are never at work is somewhat outdated. That said it is far from a bad lot but an easy life it is not.

* Imagines some 90yr old grandma/grandad want someone to have a look at her/his pubic boils*

There are more things about a Dr's job than my job I'd refuse to do.

So they loose out on some amount of their pension ... big deal.

Say if they earn on average £10k per month can't they live on say £6k per month? Bunch of greedy buggers.

The same goes to others striking greedy buggers who are wind up by some shop stewards ... it is not the end of the world if you have less pension so just suffer like everyone else you bunch of greedy selfish bastids.

This is part and parcel of the Gov's fragmentation of the NHS - by a Gov whose only response to reasoned criticism of their dumbass reforms is to blame the "vested interests" of frontline staff. My dad retired on a salary & pension that other professionals of his seniority & experience would laugh at. He's been public sector all his life: a loooong journey from Army medic to Consultant Paediatrician. And if Lansley was exposed to the kind of pressures routinely faced in those jobs, his face would melt.

Walk into any major A&E - they are only [i]just[/i] holding the line. And as you wait, be sure to remember the ConDem bullshiTe about how they are improving the service.

[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/staggers/2012/06/state-doing-robert-maxwell-doctors-pensions ]Good article in the New Statesman[/url]

Andy

LMA the whole BMA shuts final pension scheme for its employees, yet scream and go on strike about thier own pensions..
.

For me, they have lost any sympathy about change of conditions in service the more I find out about the plans and the history of pay awards etc. The cutting of thier pension scheme for BMA staff is the big, fat, hypocritical cherry on the plate.

As a partner in a firm of architects with 40 employees I can confirm that I don't get near half of an average doctors salary and I have to deal with probably the most incompetent regulator in the history of mismanagement. I also have significant liability and almost zero respect.
It's a ball - and I work 10 - 12 hour days. I don't have a gold plated pension, I don't have a union or a cartel like doctors do. In fact I work for a profession that was the first to be deliberately broken by the thatcher government.

wtf will you spend 48k a year on when your 68? house car kids all paid for nothing but knitting and slippers and the daily mail to cough up for

Christ. Whilst I genuinely find it hard to believe that the general populace do not understand what's happening to the NHS, I've always taken the forumites here to be a reasonable segment of the population, So I despair.

IT'S NOT ABOUT DOCTORS' WAGES! It's about a government, any government, dismantling the NHS. It's been happening for the last 14 years. It is not getting any better.

The doctor's strike is the very last bastion of a VERY GOOD system being SHUT DOWN. The doctors are at the higher end of the wage, and for good reason. The entire support system relies on GPs - there are good ones and bad ones. Some will refer to the specialists within the trust, some will not, but the point is that WHEN YOU ARE BROKEN, THEY WILL FIX YOU. And if they can't, the good ones will refer you to someone who can.

Now, how hard is that to understand?

I don't have a gold plated pension, I don't have a union

well what stopped you becoming a dr or getting unionised?

I've been out of the country for a week and come back to find this wonderful discussion! Quite a few posters refer to the "average" doctors salary. If you are referring to the much quoted BBC/government figure of 120k you are very much mistaken. Trainees start at around 30k and consultants start at 80k. IIRC top consultant salary is 100-110k. Merit awards can be applied, but are very rare. Doctors (and the majority of the NHS) have undergone pay freezes, but it has been accepted as they have they earn a decent pension at the end. As a medic friend says to me: I'll happily take a private sector style pension when the NHS pays me a private sector style salary (and just in case there is any doubt, that would be very expensive for the country.

And if you think the NHS is suffering in England, Scotland and N.I., come to Wales. The WAG want to cut health spending by 20% over the next 4 years!

Oh and a small point: medics also leave uni with a surgical degree so we're equally as qualified as those fabulous vets 😉

Hi fandango - so if you are correct, exactly which medics are trousering the additional money required to drag the average of £110K up from the £30K / £80K / £100K you reference?

By your own figures there must still be quite a few medics making a lot more than the rest to get to the average of £110K (which although reported by the BBC is based on actual income data)....

Farmer John - as with a lot of things, doctors' pay isn't normally distributed so the average is a pretty meaningless number - median would be more useful and far lower. The numbers Fandago quotes are about right for hospital doctors; if I wasn't writing this on my phone I'd find the pay scales (which are in the public domain and available on the NHS Employers website). Some consultants (by no means all, and in fact by no means a majority) do some private practice in their spare time to supplement their income but this has no effect on their NHS pension and is a side issue.

Coming up with an accurate figure for GPs' pay is far more difficult, as GP practices are effectively private subcontractors to the NHS (after GPs resigned [i]en masse[/i] from the NHS in the Sixties, IIRC) - some GPs are salaried and these are paid much less than £100k; the remainder are partners so aren't paid but recieve a share in the practice 'profits'. This is extremely variable depending on size of practice, no. of partners vs no. of salaried employees (incl GPs, practice nurses, reception & manager etc), how much QoF (performance-related pay) is coming in and so on. There are some extreme outliers - IIRC one of these was a GP in the Western Isles somewhere who was getting extra money due to the remote nature of their work, and being singlehanded and so on call continuously.

Andy

Pay for doctors

This page outlines the pay for doctors from 1 April 2012.

Doctors in training

Doctors in training earn a basic salary and will be paid a supplement if they work more than 40 hours and/or work outside the hours of 7am-7pm Monday to Friday.

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,412. This increases in Foundation Year 2 to £27,798. For a doctor in specialist training the basic starting salary is £29,705. If the doctor is contracted to work more than 40 hours and/or to work outside 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, they will receive an additional supplement which will normally be between 20% and 50% of basic salary. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work.

Specialty doctor and associate specialist (2008) (SAS doctors)

Doctors in the new specialty doctor grade earn between £36,807 and £70,126.

Consultants

Consultants can earn a basic salary of between £74,504 and £100,446 per year, dependent on length of service. Local and national clinical excellence awards may be awarded subject to meeting the necessary criteria.

General practitioners

Many general practitioners (GPs) are self employed and hold contracts, either on their own or as part of a partnership, with their local primary care trust (PCT). The profit of GPs varies according to the services they provide for their patients and the way they choose to provide these services.

Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,781 to £81,158, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience.

From: http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553