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I don't get what all the fuss is about?
It's a matter of style. in order of style it goes something like this:
1. Climb the route any way possible using equipment to aid you - aka aid climbing.
2. Climb the route using only your body to make progress but using ropes etc for safety, but allowing falls and siege tactics (re-supplies, abbing up and down from a camp/base station) - aka Free climbing
3. Climb the route in one push using equipment only to protect you and allowing falls
4. Climb the route in one push with no falls but still using equipment for safety
5. Climb the route in one push with no prior knowledge with but allowing falls - on sight free climbing.
6. Climb the route in one push with no falls or prior knowledge - on-sight flash
7. Climb the route with no ropes but with prior practice - solo
8. Climb the route with no ropes and no prior knowledge - on-sight solo
That's obviously not exhaustive but the general idea. The difficulty of the route usually decreases as you go down the list. These guys are doing something like no 2, which is why the emphasis is on the difficulty, and in technical terms it is ridiculously hard. Imagine climbing up an overhanging wall on hand and foot-holds not much bigger or thicker than 2 pound coin.
Now Ueli Steck can do it in 3 hours, free climbing it, no safety ropes.
Generally, the use of ropes is inversely correlated with the technical difficulty and danger of a route.
Steck/Honnold aren't soloing stuff like Dawn Wall.
Though the North Face of the Eiger will always be a far more serious undertaking than anything on El Cap, purely becuase of the subjective danger - poor rock/snow/ice, falling rock, frequent appalling weather. Given the equipment of the day those early ascents were breathtakingly bold.
Which is why I earlier wondered why the media were getting all excited about this one. Impressive technical climbing yes. But...
Impressive technical climbing yes. But...
But what?
Does Joe Public appreciate the technical difficulty? I doubt it. It might impress rock climbers - though personally I've always been a fan of the lightweight approach of guys like Mick Fowler whether it's Scottich winter climbing, alpinism or Himalayan. I'm not keen on seige tactics (that's so 50s, 60s and 70s darling). OK, they've freed another line but I don't find it as compelling as a Livesey or Dawes ascent.
Massive technical or endurance achievements in other sports can get attention even when there is zero or relatively little objective danger. The technical skill of a golfer, boxer or cricketer can make them a legend and sprout hundreds of column inches.
We may be used to associating climbing achievements with boldness and risk of death, but climbing is a very varied sport, with extreme soloing and high altitude mountaineering at one end, and incredible difficulty but relatively little risk at the other.
These guys are climbing pitch after pitch at a level of difficulty that is hard to explain to a layman.
This is a 9a pitch, one of the first, if not the first to be climbed in Europe:
On Dawn Wall, there are two pitches graded at this level of difficulty (although being less steep, their character will be slightly different), and a total of seven at approximately 8c or above. Another 11 pitches are 8a or above. Doing these in one effort from valley to rim is mindblowing stuff.
Which is why I earlier wondered why the media were getting all excited about this one. Impressive technical climbing yes. But...
The trouble is the media, and most non-climbers don't understand it. They obsess about hardest and most dangerous, and assume the two go hand in hand when in reality it's much more complicated. Some climbs are celebrated because they raise the bar in technical difficulty, speed, style, boldness, novelty, and a combination of some or all of these factors. In this case the focus is on difficulty and novelty. And conversely, the climbs Steck and Honnold etc have done are celebrated for their boldness, speed and style.
What they have done is an achievement but seems a bit hyped up. If I may I'll compare it to climbing the North Face of the Eiger, the first ascent took 3 days. Now Ueli Steck can do it in 3 hours, free climbing it, no safety ropes.
I have absolutely no idea how you think this makes Dawn Wall a less impressive achievement. Ueli Steck can run up the Eiger because in technical terms it's barely on the radar. It's not even a remotely comparable climbing achievement.
Dawn Wall is getting the coverage because it's amazingly hard climbing in a stunningly beautiful, iconic and instantly recognisable location which has been recorded in a way that no major mountaineering feat has been for decades and which the sponsors have PR managed exceptionally well. None of which takes away from the fact that it's one of the most impressive pieces of climbing in recent memory and which has dragged climbing on probably the most famous cliff in the world slap bang into the 21st century.
OK, they've freed another line but I don't find it as compelling as a Livesey or Dawes ascent.
Christ - So this shouldn't get coverage because Johnny Dawes climbed something completely different and in a completely different style 30 years ago?
which the sponsors have PR managed exceptionally well.
/end of thread...
The comparisons to Livesey and Dawes are amusing. They're both very iconic and impressive climbers in their own right. But comparing their climbs to this is like comparing Dowhill MTB to trials. For instance, Dawes' most celebrated climb, Indian Face on Snowdown has a technical difficulty about 6 grades lower than this, and was 2 hard pitches and not 20. But it is iconic because it was climbed in a style where if he'd fallen off at most difficult section, he'd have hit the ground from 200ft up. Even today that climb has only had 4 repeats in the intervening 30 years (I think) which tells you something about how far ahead of it's time it was. This climb is similar in the way it has massively raised the standard for that climbing style, but in all other ways they couldn't be more different.
I think, as a climber, I'm naturally drawn to the achievements from my era - stuff from Dawes, Moffatt, Moon etc.
I remember the quote from Moon in the 80s.
"When 6c just isn’t that hard any more and 6b is approaching a rest".(The upper end of English tech grades at the time).
It sounded like complete hyperbole back then, but the best climbers have gone even further now.
Which is why I earlier wondered why the media were getting all excited about this one.
Because even if you don't comprehend the achievement or the difficulty, it's still bloody impressive. we devote plenty of column inches to Kim Kardashian's arse or pandas failing to shag, and goodness knows how much time reporting football, how is this any less newsworthy?
What does a non-climber see? A couple of guys spending weeks climbing a distance that most viewers probably wouldn't even entertain walking. I've probably seen more media footage of their sleeping arrangements than them actually climbing. Why? Because even a non-climber can see that and think "bloody hell."
Take that Baumgardener bloke. All he did was fail to defy gravity, piece of piss in comparison, and he got plenty of airtime. Lots of beautiful photography, something a bit different, got people talking,and even if you know nothing about space or the atmosphere or skydiving you can look at the footage and think, christ that's a bit high.
These guys are pushing the limits of skill and endurance in their field and should be respected and applauded, does it matter that people don't understand that field? How many folk watched a shitload of minority sports they'd never heard of for days on end when the Olympics were on?
I think it is fantastic that climbing at the cutting edge of difficulty is getting news coverage. Obviously the news is making a hash of it all as issues such as style of ascent are largely lost on most non-climbing folk. Leo Houlding has been on the beeb a bit and has done his best to put them right though.
But overall, despite the mixed news reporting, it is great to see the cutting edge of climbing getting some news time.
I think, as a climber, I'm naturally drawn to the achievements from my era - stuff from Dawes, Moffatt, Moon etc.
I guess that's my problem too - Livesey, Proctor, Fawcett, Redhead.
slowoldman - MemberDoes Joe Public appreciate the technical difficulty?
Not in any detail. But "**** me that looks basically impossible" is enough I think
I thought it a great achievement, something I think should, and glad it's been, on the News/TV.
A different Sport, a view in the lifestyle of other folks who care less about Handbags and Shoes, a desire to push themselves to their own limits.
Perfect News story IMO.
I've got no interest in climbing, but it has been great to see this amazing feat in the media, as it shows the world that there are people out there pushing limits and doing new/harder things.
The fact that some bloke leaving Liverpool FC got so much media coverage last week is more worrying, and a sad reflection of the UK today.
Basically - what bikebouy said ^^^
[quote=allthepies ]On some of the video feed I saw, one of the blokes seemed to be leaning back on the rope and letting it take the strain. Looked like he was using it as to get some brief rest from clinging on to the wall. Is that "allowed" when free climbing ?
No it's not. They won't have counted that pitch if they did that and will have gone back to the belay and climbed it again. It will have been on a failed attempt I presume - I don't think they were doing any deliberate reccying of the route on this expedition, that was all done months and years ago. They have had multiple attempts at some of the hardest pitches, but the ethics of their expedition are that if they fall or need to use the rope then they go back to the belay and try again.
That or it was somebody at a belay.
[quote=dazh ]2. Climb the route using only your body to make progress but using ropes etc for safety, but allowing falls and siege tactics (re-supplies, abbing up and down from a camp/base station) - aka Free climbing
3. Climb the route in one push using equipment only to protect you and allowing falls
...
These guys are doing something like no 2
I think they'd be insulted by that suggestion 😉 The whole point as I understood it was to do 3 in your list - they've climbed in a single push starting from the ground and free climbed every pitch. No abbing on and off the route. The only possible complaint is that they've had external contact for resupply as discussed upthread.
Given that even the best climbers in the world (something these guys have quite a good claim on for a certain criteria of best) couldn't climb the pitches on that on sight or without an occasional fall, anything further down the list is pretty much impossible for that technical standard of climbing. Maybe in 20 or 30 years somebody will be suggesting that those pitches are "approaching a rest", but I doubt it.
One reason for the hype is that style 3 is what most recreational climbers do (I suppose arguably style 5 or 6 - on sight flash is what people actually aspire to), so it's easier to relate to the ethic than for soloing or aid climbing. Lots of kudos for freeing an aid route, especially one nobody thought would be freed.
As a long ago climber that's a gob smacking performance, but of course there is the other view....
As an aside,
Anyone know [i]how[/i] supplies are being ferried to them? Is there a climbing team doing kilometer-long round trips behind them, or is it lowered from the top on a really long rope, or what?
Seems that's a bit of an achievement in itself.
I presume the mash has already done 22 idiots kick an inflated bit of leather around for some stupid reason? 😉
correct.
often.
Devoted fan Tom Logan said: "I like to watch millionaires run around while trying to convince myself there is something at stake"
"And when I watch them on television the vast array of camera angles helps me convince myself I am being entertained."
I think they'd be insulted by that suggestion
I was assuming they were abbing down completed pitches to established camps rather than to the ground and then climbing the rope back to their highest point, but yes it looks on closer inspection to be a ground up attempt so no. 3 it is. The support is an issue though, but doing it unsupported in proper Alpine style would be pretty much impossible for a route of that difficulty. That will probably be the next improvement in style if/when anyone repeats it (which will be a long time coming IMO).
I presume they'd effectively already done 2 (over a number of years).
Well I'd have expected them to have attempted all the hard pitches, but not in the same push. Horses for courses though. It's all still mind-bogglingly impressive. Back in my climbing days I remember looking in disbelief at boulder problems with a similar technical difficulty to the moves on those pitches so to string together hundreds of those in one attempt is ridiculous.
[quote=dazh ]Well I'd have expected them to have attempted all the hard pitches, but not in the same push.
I can't see a significant difference in ethics or difficulty between abbing back to a base camp to take some time off, and driving home to sleep in your own bed before coming back weeks or months later! Though I suppose they might have done all the right pitches, but not necessarily in the right order.
I was assuming they were abbing down completed pitches to established camps rather than to the ground and then climbing the rope back to their highest point
Your assumption was correct. They've done all the pitches in the right order, but with fixed lines in place so they could go up/down from established camps to whichever pitch every day.
Standard style on big walls is to break down your portaledges etc. every day and haul it all up behind you, pitch by pitch. But thats an extra level of hassle and effort they clearly decided they could do without, given the length of time they were going to be on the wall anyway.
From teh grauniad
Wearing headlamps, they usually climbed after dusk so the rock would be cold to prevent their hands sweating – a big problem when trying to grab tiny granite ledges
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For those who don't climb I can understand the lack of understanding on what this achievement is. 'hey they use ropes, how can that be free climbing'... all explained above. Even the climbing world gets confused about it.
But forget the ropes thing for a second and look at what they are actually climbing, look at the sizes of the holds. Climbs get graded by difficulty. Most of these climbs were circa 8b/8c+. Trust me that's well hard. From memory only the likes of Ondra and Sharma are climbing above that at 9a. Beyond that doesn't exist.
I took some total non climbers bouldering a few months back, they all thought it looked easy enough, got them kitted out at my local wall. Not a single one of them managed anything above grade 5, indeed most were on lower grade stuff and struggling to finish the climbs. Dawn Wall is mostly grade 8c+ most of the way up. You might think, hey its only 3 more levels up... but each grade is split further by a letter, a b or c and then often a plus is added to indicate its a bit harder. I've been climbing regularly for 6 years and have only got to 7a. These guys are brilliant climbers, complete respect.
Footage of the dyno move being practiced a previous year:
I doubt even Honnold would do that without a rope!
From memory only the likes of Ondra and Sharma are climbing above that at 9a. Beyond that doesn't exist.
Many more people than that have climbed 9a now - It's been onsighted by Ondra and by Megos. The first 9a+ was almost 20 years ago (Open Air) and La Dura Dura, Change and Vasil Vasil are supposed to go at 9b+.
Many more people than that have climbed 9a now - It's been onsighted by Ondra and by Megos. The first 9a+ was almost 20 years ago (Open Air) and La Dura Dura, Change and Vasil Vasil are supposed to go at 9b+.
The fact you know the names show how few people climb at that level 🙂
Dunno if this has been posted yet but it gives some idea of the difficulty (about 2mins in)...
Climbingnarc has a live feed from some US TV station : http://climbingnarc.com/2015/01/watch-dawn-wall-finish-live/
Rather strangely it's currently the pre-broadcast live feed of a bored reporter talking to the studio
Edit - ignore me, I'm a day behind...
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The fact you know the names show how few people climb at that level
Of course it's an incredible feat to make it to that level but I'd reckon that there's well over 100 9a climbers in the world these days, the vast majority of whom I've never heard of. There must be getting on for a dozen brits* for a start. I was just pointing out that beyond that level does exist.
*Top of head - McClure, McCaffie, Macleod, Smith, Bolger, Haston, Gaskins, Carson, Buys,Pearson, Simpson (ha!)...
Don't forget Moon, Smith and Dunning (given that Ben's idea of what's 8c+ has so far resisted Ondra, Graham and McColl).
I don't think we're quite at the point where 9a just isn't that hard any more, and 8c is not yet approaching a rest.
Oh, and according to this page : http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php
There are 272 climbers who have done 9a or harder (although they've chucked in split 8c+/9a routes and boulder link-ups like Pilgrimage)
either way, its a fairly exclusive club right? 😉
Back on topic whens the press conference?
First they have to re-learn how to walk on flat ground.
I keep reading this thread title as 'El Capitan, Yorkshire'
I keep reading this thread title as 'El Capitan, Yorkshire'
Team America came to Yorkshire a few years ago (Alex Honnold, Kevin Jorgeson and Matt Segal). They repeated John Dunne's classic New Statesman at Ilkley and regraded it E9, I think.
...which seems to be the consensus. You can get some insight into how hard New Statesman is by simply walking to the bottom and trying to pull onto the first move. And trying...
Anyway, climbing's one of those things like chess where you've got to be pretty good to understand just how good the really good players/climbers are. (I don't with either.) Grades/numbers just don't convey it for me, in the same way that a four minute mile is not 20% harder than a five minute mile. Hey ho.
'El Capitan, Yorkshire'
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I used to climb when I was younger, mostly in the Peaks. I could not reliably second E1, let alone lead, but I've got a rough idea of what a "6" move was like, in terms of technicality.
I have absolutely no idea what sustained 8+ moves, on that length of climb, with that degree of exposure would be like. I just know it is a great achievement.
My own inspiration was the likes of Johnny Dawes:
E1 is roughly equivalent to French 6a, or American 5.10a
The hardest pitches on Dawn Wall are 5.14, which is roughly equivalent to E10 or above (or French 8b+ to 9a).
Johnny's hardest routes are extremely classy E8s and E9s. Some of them are in the videos LemonySam posted of Jorgenson.
'El Capitan, Yorkshire'
Well if they want a real challenge they could always come over and try Il Pirata, Lancashire...
I met Johnny Dawes at the climbing wall a year or so ago. He was trying to get up something with what looked like a heel hook for the sake of it. He fell off a few times, but then made it stick.
I told him I hadn't thought he was going about it the right way, but fair play for making it work. Then he turned to talk to me and I realised why he looked familiar.
Johnny Dawes gets a "quite good" from punter at climbing wall. 😳
I guess I'm not the first to say he's unconventional though...
All this interest has persuaded me to dig my old photos out tonight which should include an album of when I aid-climbed Dawn Wall about 20 years ago. I imagine some of the pitches will be same as those which have now gone free. If I get chance I'll scan a few in and post em up.
Now those I would like to see.
The bravest aiding I did was some RURPs and hooking on the slate or maybe the bean can hangers in Tin Can alley in Ogwen.
Article from Black Diamond about the success and 7 year lead-up:
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I'll be checking back for your photo's, marcus! Happy reminiscing!
The thought of sleeping in a porta-ledge scares me to death. I don't know if I could sleep for wondering if the gear attaching it to the face will hold!
I think these guys are amazing and i'd rather see any big achievement like this from any sport, take centre stage on the news over the depressing stuff the media seems to focus on.
They were talking about this on R4 this morning and one thing they mentioned was that the tiny matchstick-wide holds they're climbing up are razor sharp, so part of the challenge is to manage the damage to the skin on your fingers.
I take it this is a much harder climb than Half Dome that Alex Honnold Solo'd in 2.5hrs despite being taller?
This is the one that absolutely blows my mind though considering the history of the Eigers North Face even though it is probably easy from a technical point of view:-
I take it this is a much harder climb than Half Dome that Alex Honnold Solo'd in 2.5hrs despite being taller?
Much, much harder. Regular Northwest on HD has a couple of pitches in the 5.12 range I think, as opposed to stacks of 5.14 and 5.13 on this.
Much, much harder. Regular Northwest on HD has a couple of pitches in the 5.12 range I think, as opposed to stacks of 5.14 and 5.13 on this.
Just for reference, 5.12 is the level a reasonable Weekend Warrior might redpoint at whereas top end 5.14 is a level that only a handful of brits have ever managed.
This has been a great thread, I've enjoyed all the videos and am in awe of the achievement. I've long been a fan of Ansel Adams photographs of Yosemite, it's time I got myself over there and had a look.
I was once was pleased with myself after an E3 6b onsight to then look up and see Kevin Jorgenson soloing Knocking on Heavans Door E9 6c. 😯 My friend then fell off the climb I was on breaking his tib and fib (open) and screamed like a banshee. Jorgesone was so in the zone he never even heard it according to his spotters. He stole my moment, and rightly so as you'll appreciate if you've ever seen the route. An amazing spectacle to watch.
From the other man of the big wall
Andrew Kirkpatrick
7 mins ·
Anyone else ****ing sick to death of the bloody ?#?dawnwall? already? Come on @tommycaldwell1 - time to move on lad!
(Humour content)