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At the risk of exposing my stupidity in public... what are they doing free-climbing the wall in mid-winter? Surely it's well below freezing in Yosemite at this time of year?
I don't understand.
Mental!
Rock has a more friction in the cold I believe 🙂
No one I work with understands why I go biking up hills in weather like we've experienced recently, which is really just the same thing as you not 'getting' the above news story.
Not criticising, just saying.
Less moisture so more grip perhaps. In all honesty i've no idea.
Better friction when it is cooler. They're in T shirts a lot of the time and climbing some bits at night just to get the rock cooler.
Just like in the UK lots of the grit climbers go out in grim winter conditions for better friction.
They had Leo Holding on the BBC new this morning talking about it. He said it was still pretty warm and they were climbing at night to make use of lower temps. Apparently the grip is better when it's cooler. Looks absolutely crazy to me.
Surely it's well below freezing in Yosemite at this time of year?
Reckons it's about 9 degrees at the moment which is pretty much perfect. For various reasons it's easier to climb at your limit when it's cool - principally because you get better friction on smaller holds and because your skin is less likely to get sweaty and over soft meaning you're less likely to get cut fingers.
[quote=tomd said] Looks absolutely crazy to me.
They're using safety ropes so not 100% nuts 🙂
The holds are so small that low temperatures are actually an advantage - ie hands don't get greasy with sweat, so friction is better. It's why the gritstone bouldering season is during the winter months in the UK.
My experience of winter rock climbing was not being able to feel the holds after half an hour or so, though.
Not sure I'd want to be portaledging it for well over two weeks on El Cap in January.
is it free climbing on a technicality ?
it sounds like what i used to know as "climbing"
free climbing was always something madmen did - ie climbing without a rope.....
Well I suppose they'll get up it faster as they won't spend half the time dipping their hands in their chalk bags.
Terminology confusion:
Free climbing in US terms refers to both climbing without a rope (soloing) and climbing with rope and gear, but without pulling on it to make progress. It's the latter in this case.
They could have gone and soloed a route somewhere really [url= http://www.outsideonline.com/news-from-the-field/Explorer-Lonnie-Dupre-Completes-Solo-Summit-of-Denali-.html ]cold[/url].
is it free climbing on a technicality ?
No, it's free climbing* but the general public think of free climbing as meaning what climbers call soloing.
*Free climbing is simply climbing without resorting to pulling on artificial gear which is known as Aid Climbing
Free climbing is simply climbing without resorting to pulling on artificial gear which is known as Aid Climbing
i have heard of 'aid' climbing, but didn't know the 'mercans called it 'free climbing' - thanks for that.
anyway, awesome.
i have heard of 'aid' climbing, but didn't know the 'mercans called it 'free climbing'
It's not an american thing. brits have used it in the same way for decades. Hence route names like Free and Easy which was previously an Aid route called Superdirectissima.
Biggest problem of big wall climbing in Yosemite in summer is the volume / weight of water you need to haul up. At this time of the year when its a bit colder you can reduce your water significantly. An extra jumper doesn't weigh that much.
On Sat ,I was chatting to someone (at my local wall) about this .They have climbed at El Capitan and said that [url= http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/blog/ ]Kevin Jorgeson[/url] has been planning this for [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/sports/kevin-jorgeson-completes-crucial-pitch-on-el-capitans-dawn-wall.html?_r=0 ]years[/url]
Awesome stuff 😯
[url= http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140111-interview-kevin-jorgeson-dawn-wall-yosemite-adventure/ ]Interview with Jorgenson up on the wall[/url]
Sounds like a massive psychological effort as well.
The 8 1/2ft dyno is nuts as well. Look what he's jumping from and to...
[img] 
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i have heard of 'aid' climbing, but didn't know the 'mercans called it 'free climbing' - thanks for that.
just in case - they don't call aid climbing free climbing.
Both use rope to hold a fall. Free climbing uses only hands on rock to move upwards, aid climbing uses using metal gubbinses placed in cracks and on tiny holds to pull on. "Freeing" a route that was previously only climbed by people aiding, is an important step, because it's ethically purer to climb without using gubbinses to pull on, and marks a moving forward of technical climbing achievement on that route.
Read Andy Kirkpatrick's Psychovertical if you're looking for a funny, exciting, emotional book and want to know more about aid climbing.
Is that the dyno?
45secs in.
"Freeing" a route that was previously only climbed by people aiding, is an important step, because it's ethically purer to climb without using gubbinses to pull on,
As in the aid route named 'Free That You Bastards' in Chee Dale where the first aid ascentionist pulled his way up on pegs, then abbed the line and smashed off all of what he thought were the useable hand-holds.
It was freed by Ben Moon in the 80s. 😀
I understood that the point of "free climbing" as they're undertaking it is that the ropes only catch them if they fall - if they do fall, they have to revert back to the start of that pitch rather than carry on from where they are hanging. So ropes are a lifesaver, not any sort of artificial aid (aside from pulling gear up).
Caveat - I know almost nothing about climbing, I just read an article about this yesterday...
Not sure why it makes the BBC News though - it's only a spot of rock climbing.
Not sure why it makes the BBC News though - it's only a spot of rock climbing.
Other sports make the news too you realise?
Bit like saying the Tour de France is only some blokes riding around a bit.
It will be a major achievement within the sport if they manage it.
I meant it's more nuts from the point of view of the physical and mental challenge, the ropes should stop them killing themselves. Doing something that hard for days on end, sleeping right there with no break at all is impressive.
It will be a major achievement within the sport if they manage it.
Plus the quality of the coverage makes for some awe inspiring videos.
that's a long dyno! respect.
[quote=marcus ]Biggest problem of big wall climbing in Yosemite in summer is the volume / weight of water you need to haul up.
Are they actually hauling their own kit though? Pics I've seen show lots of people with cameras and lights - or do the ethics mean that they're not allowed to make any contact?
the ropes should stop them killing themselves.
[i]should[/i]
still plenty of things to go wrong though. It's hardly safe!
Just found this excerpt from the book I mentioned earlier. Bit of a spoiler for the end, but not really: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08f/wfeature-psycho-vertical-kirkpatrick
Aracer - Dunno, not had time to look at in detail but would expect so if they want the kudos of 'having done it properly'.
Is that the dyno?
There was a kind of multi-year saga while Tommy and Kevin were scoping the route and rehearsing it and the details were leaking out onto youtube or wherever.... will they / won't they do the dyno 😯
The sort of move that would be set in a bouldering competition as a crowd-pleaser, but to do it in a place like that, outrageous.
Are they actually hauling their own kit though? Pics I've seen show lots of people with cameras and lights - or do the ethics mean that they're not allowed to make any contact?
No, they've got people bringing water & supplies up. Its kind of stretching the ethics but it's not entirely unprecedented, the first (aid) ascent of the original route on El Cap (the Nose) took 47 days of climbing, spread over about a year and half of going up and back down again...
I think they are being resupplied by supporters. If you could imagine the amount of water/food/waste involved in a three week stint on the wall, let alone one which involves such difficult climbing, then it moves away from the kind of set-up involved in your average trip up The Nose.
I guess it's as pure as is possible. Someone can come along next year, or in ten years time, and try to do it more quickly, without pre-practice, or self-supported. Can't begin to comprehend what that would take.
To be fair, although its got the presses and general public attention im more impressed with the first winter solo ascent of denali that's just occured. The headgame of soloing a 20000 ft mountain in -60 is a different kettle of fish. (Not denigrating the efforts of the fair weather friction monkeys though)
Not a bad read
I think the boundaries of free cane be somewhat hazy!!
Incredible climbing here though.
Not sure why it makes the BBC News though - it's only a spot of rock climbing.
Dear god!! Some people really are idiots.
It will be am amazing achievement. Great footage as well.
My wife wondered exactly what the OP said - we've been in Yosemite valley around December and you can hear 'cracks' as bits of stuff - not sure if ice or rocks - fell. Not sure if this would be more or less hazardous in winter as opposed to summer.
If there's more friction when it's colder, someone should tell the F1 teams - they save a fortune on their leccy bills.
mmm....Be interesting to know how many bolts they've drilled to protect the blank sections as well.
To be fair, although its got the presses and general public attention im more impressed with the first winter solo ascent of denali that's just occured.
Why should it get any coverage. It's just a bit of winter walking, no? 8)
Seriously, though, bloody impressive as it is, it won't be the first winter solo of Denali. Just the first winter ascent which happens to be in January.
Hopefully he's down by now or at least at a lower camp.
Is this a proper, throw the rope at the bottom of the first pitch, tie in and climb on-sight with no practice first? (Not had time to read the press yet). If so well done those men.
Is this a proper, throw the rope at the bottom of the first pitch, tie in and climb on-sight with no practice first?
No, they've been scoping it out with recce trips over the last few years.
And something which I'm surprised the media hasn't picked up on yet, Tommy Caldwell only has 9½ fingers. He sawed one off in a DIY accident...
Dear god!! Some people really are idiots.
That'll be me then. Honestly I don't see the point sticking on the Telly - Joe Public won't have the faintest idea if it's impressive or not. I say this as an ex (keen) rock climber.
You could say the same about any specialist endeavour, from sport to cancer research.
The media is there to tell Joe Public whether it's impressive or not. Fairly frequently they say it's impressive when it's not, or ignore major achievements in minority sports, so it's nice to have an instance when they've got it bob on.
wtf is a "dyno"?
A dynamic move - jumping for a hold, basically.
That'll be me then. Honestly I don't see the point sticking on the Telly - Joe Public won't have the faintest idea if it's impressive or not. I say this as an ex (keen) rock climber.
The surroundings, the exposure, the height, the sleeping in a tent tied to a cliff. All of this will be pretty impressive to just about anyone. Of course only folks in the same sphere will understand the challenges of it on a technical level.
Plus of course, it makes a change from the usual news of people killing each other to death...
I know nowt about climbing, but have stood under El Capitan and seen tiny little dots of humans up there and it's frikkin big!..
What do they do for the toilet?
😕
What do they do for the toilet?
Go in something similar to this.
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Hamster optional for extra gnarr.
I'm getting a bit jaded by the constant stream of information about this, but every so often I have to remind myself how utterly huge this route is.
It's been Caldwell's project for years and contains 6 pitches rated 5.14 (French grade 8c+ and above), and 9 pitches rated 5.13 (8a+ to 8b+). None of the other hard free routes on El Capitan have more than one or two 5.13 pitches, I think. It's another world in terms of difficulty.
It's not that long ago that climbing any single short 5.15/8c+ route at ground level would put someone amongst the best climbers in the world.
It'll be quite a while before this gets repeated, and I strongly doubt that anyone is going to make significant improvements on the style of ascent for a long time. (Obviously some 13-year old girl will flash it in three days next year now I've said that)
It's not that long ago that climbing any single short 5.15/8c+ route at ground level would put someone amongst the best climbers in the world.
Without wanting to make you feel old, it's 20 years...
There are some tips on 'vertical relief' [url= http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingtrash.htm ]here[/url]
Basically you poo in a used water bottle or a 'poop-tube'. Apparently it can be done from a hanging belay with some 'practice'. I'm not sure that's something I'd like to master through trial and error 😯
Basically you poo in a used water bottle or a 'poop-tube'.
Or if you're very brave, a well rolled dry bag.
Yeah, but are they any good on grit? 😉
Yeah, but are they any good on grit?
*can't resist*
Jorgeson's not too bad...
cojones the size of a football - so after coming a few inches from decking he then proceeds to climb past the point he fell without putting any more protection in 😯
Putting more protection in on the that route isn't an option, so yes, very ballsy. Although considering the sort of thing Honnold et al do a 25ft ground fall is probably not that scary to these guys.
so after coming a few inches from decking he then proceeds to climb past the point he fell without putting any more protection in
On Gaia? That is the only gear you can get, see also Jean-minh Trin-Thieu.
25ft ground fall is probably not that scary to these guys
A 25ft ground fall can kill you just as much as a 2000ft ground fall - I suspect the ability to rationalise that is part of the reason they are able to do what they do.
[quote=lemonysam ]On Gaia? That is the only gear you can get, see also Jean-minh Trin-Thieu.
I presumed that was the case at E7 6b, but it doesn't stop it being ballsy. The description in the guidebook I have is:
"The steep shallow groove in the front face looks, and is terrifying. Exit right in a serious position."
To be fair, he was penduluming in his fall when he came closest to the ground, so not quite that close to a ground fall.
Oh, and I've just realised his belayer is running away as he falls to stop him decking!
Have they pre-placed gear on some sections on some pitches? Some pics show gear well above the lead climber. Route looks epic.
Assume there is plenty there that has been installed by others, but that the criteria for this attempt require that they only use what they place?
They've hand-drilled some bolts, and placed other gear on abseil or previous attempts. Doesn't mean it's anywhere near safe as houses though - read something about doing some of the pitches on 'body-weight only' placements, which basically means it's more than likely to rip if you do more than just ease your weight onto it.
Which can mean taking some looooong falls if you ping off at the wrong moment.
Enjoyed the Reel-rock film at New Year which gave a lot of history of Yosemite climbing. There always were nutters and still are.
This has kinda passed me by as I don't follow the climbing media much now, so without want to open a can of ethical worms,
, really, is it not a ground up attempt?and placed other gear on abseil
TBH there is preplaced gear on every route on El Cap. A lot of it would be fixed gear like pegs, or very hard/impossible to place on a clean lead, anyhow. So one way or another you'd have to fix the pitches then try to free them.
I think the focus here is more 'one push' than 'ground up'. Redpointing all the pitches in one outing, albeit a very long outing, would be a hell of an achievement.
Arh thanks, I had assumed it was a new route.
[quote=The Swedish Chef ]
, really, is it not a ground up attempt?and placed other gear on abseil
Not really any different to using bolts, which is standard practice in the US (and most of the rest of the world). It's really only in the UK where such a big thing is made of placing gear as you climb.
Only a new route in the sense it's not been done free before - a long tradition of aid climbing.
I heard that they were doing some of the climbing at night when friction is further increased. Also I think they are having to climb a day then rest for 2 or 3 to allow their fingers to recover.
A 25ft ground fall can kill you just as much as a 2000ft ground fall
That's true, but the odds of surviving a 25ft fall are obviously massively better than a 2000ft one so in the whole chance of death risk assessment it's one they probably wouldn't think too long about. Not that I'm trying to diminish it. When you hear Johnny Dawes talk about how scared he was on the top move the mind boggles at a flash attempt.
Interesting short interview/article with Alex Honnold (an amazing climber, check out some of his free soloing stuff if you din't know about him) talking about the climb here.... [url= http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/races-sports/alex-honnold-on-the-dawn-wall-climb-20150112 ]Linky[/url]
I find it interesting how even though El Cap is probably the most famous climbing cliff in the world, very few people actually try free climbing any of the routes up it (despite having grades supposedly climbable by a lot of people nowadays). For granite, the rock does have very low friction; combine this with the specialist techniques required (crack climbing!)and you have a cliff much less popular than one might suppose. The European venues I can think of that are of fantastic quality, but rarely climbed by visitors, on are The Elbsandstein in Saxony, Val di Mello in the Italian Alps and the Verdon canyon in Provence.
So, for me it is double respect for these guys as it requires special skills not just fitness to climb at any standard on that cliff.
Both just topped out. Epic effort.
Was there in October (not climbing). Watched a few groups trying it though...
[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7498/16022939525_c9f85e0ce3_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7498/16022939525_c9f85e0ce3_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/qpTKG2 ]California and Yosemite-7.jpg[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/7509988@N07/ ]Kit Carruthers[/url], on Flickr
I don't get what all the fuss is about?
As I see it they have fallen several times on the way up and the ropes saved them, therefore had it not been for the ropes they would have died and have not completed the route. So, they are neither free climbing/soloing or aid climbing?
Fair play to them I wouldn't/couldn't do it!
"Clearly you are not a golfer".
So, they are neither free climbing/soloing or aid climbing?
They are free climbing, which means that they are only holding onto the rock, and the equippment they use is only to save them from death. As opposed to aid climbing, where you stick bits of metal into the rock and then use those as handholds. In the UK that's considered cheating.
It's 'just' something incredibly hard that's never been done before, that's all.
I don't get what all the fuss is about?As I see it they have fallen several times on the way up and the ropes saved them, therefore had it not been for the ropes they would have died and have not completed the route. So, they are neither free climbing/soloing or aid climbing?
Obv you're not a climber, but the fuss is because they've just freed a particularly hard route on el cap.
I'm not sure why the mainstream media is all over it though, since this particular ascent is probably only really significant to climbers. Must just have been well PRed and media jumped on.
I think Alex Honnold has probably skewed the general public's perception of hard climbing.
On some of the video feed I saw, one of the blokes seemed to be leaning back on the rope and letting it take the strain. Looked like he was using it as to get some brief rest from clinging on to the wall. Is that "allowed" when free climbing ?
Free climbing just means no aid (ie no pulling on stuff that isn't rock).
I doubt they'll be arsed about not being able to claim an "onsight" of dawn wall. ie climbing route without falling or resting on first attempt with no knowledge of the route (save for guidebook stuff).
As I just said a couple of posts up "I think Alex Honnold has probably skewed the general public's perception of hard climbing."
What allthepies said, I saw that photo too. What they have done is an achievement but seems a bit hyped up. If I may I'll compare it to climbing the North Face of the Eiger, the first ascent took 3 days. Now Ueli Steck can do it in 3 hours, free climbing it, no safety ropes.
Looked like he was using it as to get some brief rest from clinging on to the wall. Is that "allowed" when free climbing ?
Well it sort of counts against you - you don't get as much kudos as doing something 'clean' - but in this case that is outweighed by the incredible achievement. These two aren't short of kudos 🙂
If I may I'll compare it to climbing the North Face of the Eiger, the first ascent took 3 days
Not really the same thing. Modern climbing standards are vastly higher than they were in those days.