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I don’t know if or how much it furthers the cause but if it gets a few people thinking and talking about it in a dialectic way rather than media comments rage way, it’s better than not doing it at all.
A big if there and it is just as likely to put more people off and think climate change stuff is for "those nutters".
^ this. What purpose do they think this is going to possibly serve?
That they can drive 100 miles back home in their oil guzzling car, sit in front of their wood burning stove eating a nice New Zealand Lamb steak with a glass of white wine from the Napa Valley, watching their Chinese 65" widescreen TV, sound in the knowledge they have done their bit to save the planet.
Because the folks that JSO are aiming their protest at don’t really see Stone Henge as valuable either.
I know what you mean. Some will though and some will just be triggered because it's 'lefties' with blue hair. And that's kind of the point, what and who are you angry with and why, and does that make much sense / how proportional is that? ..and for those who can't have that internal debate or resolve that Q, well.. thinking is hard sometimes isn't it : )
People have different views because they've had different lives and influences. I heard someone say, if you'd have lived their life so far you'd think like they do. Probably true. Change is hard.
A big if there and it is just as likely to put more people off and think climate change stuff is for “those nutters”.
As I said, if this 'puts people off' then they're people who're hard of thinking or never GAS to begin with. A person can be pro environmental causes and anti JSO's methods, or pro both. Your position on environmental issues sits way above some media protest tactics. This isn't a net loss thing, the folks who don't GAS are anti anyway, JSO or not.
Sure I get what you're saying, but actions like attacking Stone Henge are the excuse lots of folks need to just ignore them, and write off their actions as 'just vandalism' Rather than provoke a discussion or thoughts about what they hold valuable, it's all the fuel (no pun intended) to do the exact opposite.
Then as RM points out, it just becomes action for action's sake, it's un-directed and pointless.
A person can be pro environmental causes and anti JSO’s methods
Yes, I am one of those people. As for not GAS, I am in that camp when in comes to JSO as think they are pointless and any effect they have is tiny but they seem to be enjoying themselves I suppose.
And lets be honest for a moment, Stonehenge is a Victorian re-imagining of what a henge looked like.
I'd bet you a penny to a pound that at various points in time people painted it in bright colors and did far more outrageous things there than shuffle past some grey stones mumbling about how magnificent "our" history / country is.
'graffiti' / vandalism, whatever, is as old as the stones themselves...
As for not GAS, I am in that camp when in comes to JSO as think they are pointless and any effect they have is tiny but they seem to be enjoying themselves I suppose.
I may be in that camp, I'm not sure tbh. I can't say for sure if they're pointless - it'd just be an opinion. So on balance I just think along the lines of there being (almost) no such thing as bad publicity. And, older folks like me should listen to younger folks more.
‘graffiti’ / vandalism, whatever, is as old as the stones themselves…
I remember seeing all the graffiti on there when you could get that close. No equivalent outrage over that, no-one trying to find who Robbo1977 was etc. No outrage in the papers when a beautiful old building in a city centre gets tagged because it happens all the time. You need a 'man bites dog' situation to get in the papers - as JSO realise.
Sure I get what you’re saying, but actions like attacking Stone Henge are the excuse lots of folks need to just ignore them, and write off their actions as ‘just vandalism’ Rather than provoke a discussion or thoughts about what they hold valuable, it’s all the fuel (no pun intended) to do the exact opposite.
I'm sorting of with Jameso on this TBH, the people who are "put off" most likely weren't interested in engaging with the topic to begin with, if they needed "an excuse" there was never going to be any dialogue was there?
A handful are able to see the issue despite the (mostly) RW media narrative.
Just like my wife, she's not denying climate change or that something must be done, but her priorities are sadly out of whack and in her mind that something falls to someone else and she's gotten hung up on the nature of the protests not the topic they're attempting to draw attention to.
I think the actions of jso actually make it harder for serious people to effect change. All they do is give the deniers another brush to tarnish them with on the old guilty by association. How can those who want to make serious change and policy do so without been seen to have given into these idiots actions
All they do is give the deniers another brush to tarnish them with on the old guilty by association. How can those who want to make serious change and policy do so without been seen to have given into these idiots actions
Very easily, they say they're doing it because of X or Y, they'll be things that were all there long before JSO. Protest is a show of emotion or raises the profile of a point but change happens through debate or study of the point. The protest doesn't undermine the study.
'idiots' says where you stand on JSO and I'm not saying this to change your mind at all, I'm just saying that they don't undermine the climate debate and the scientific knowledge etc - people who say that they do undermine it for them were thinking that way already. Or just not thinking.
TBH, the people who are “put off” most likely weren’t interested in engaging
So what audience is the stunt for then? Those that understand the climate threat don't need it, and those that do need to understand the message are most likely ignoring it.
So what audience is the stunt for then? Those that understand the climate threat don’t need it, and those that do need to understand the message are most likely ignoring it.
Fair point, and the long and the short of it is I don't think it's 'counter productive' more just adding to the general media 'noise' the great unwashed are subject to every day...
In fairness the outrage machine is sort of agnostic, they'll adopt whatever position gets more clicks and comments (with their given target audience), a small proportion of the coverage will actually touch on the issue and relay JSO's own statements, but the spin is always going to be pitched towards the audiences existing bias.
Like I said before though the opposing group has a marketing department, oil money and primetime ad spots booked already. I understand JSO's frustration leading them to these sort of protests. But yeah, ultimately it is just more noise.
They're a bit shit anyway aren't they?
Those that understand the climate threat don’t need it, and those that do need to understand the message are most likely ignoring it.
I expect there's a sliding scale of understanding and acting. Perhaps also they're hoping for a chain reaction effect.
And lets be honest for a moment, Stonehenge is a Victorian re-imagining of what a henge looked like.
Exactly my thinking. It's a cultural palimpsest. JSO just added another layer which I think is quite amusing.
Perhaps also they’re hoping for a chain reaction effect
Do you mean going bust 😀😀
^ Ha.. very good, maybe
("who funds you!?")
Back in 1999 there was a propsal to demolish stonehenge with explosives, to symbolise that the UK would be forward looking in the 21st Century rather than obsessing about the past.....................................
A person can be pro environmental causes and anti JSO’s methods
You're right, we should forget protest and just vote for a party that's pro-environment. How's that going, by the way ?
You’re right, we should forget protest and just vote for a party that’s pro-environment. How’s that going, by the way
Or - instead of making pointless protests that do more to harm than benefit the net zero progress, they could actually get jobs in the low carbon sphere. There is oodles of work going on just now in Engineering and Project management* just now where they would be able to make a constructive difference to our world in some small part. Might mean a little retraining &/ some effort but will facilitate much better returns in the long run.
I'm quite confident I'll achieve more CO2 reduction this year alone through my work projects than most of the JSO lot will achieve in their lifetimes inspiring others to change. It's a bit harder than throwing orange paint around though.
*used as one example as it's what I have knowledge of
Or – instead of making pointless protests that do more to harm than benefit the net zero progress, they could actually get jobs in the low carbon sphere. There is oodles of work going on just now in Engineering and Project management* just now where they would be able to make a constructive difference to our world in some small part. Might mean a little retraining &/ some effort but will facilitate much better returns in the long run.
Well done you for checking up on the CVs and capabilities of the JSO protestors in order to make a constructive suggestion.
Who said forget about protest?
You're right. There's always a strongly worded letter to the local newspaper. Or whatever other means of protest the comfortable middle classes deem acceptable.
For the public, there is a complete disconnect between the action and the message here. And the step from interrupting sporting and other heavily media covered events to stunts involving artworks and historic sites really isn’t going to help them, or draw anyone to their cause. You can ignore those making that point if you want of course, but the point isn’t “all protest is bad”, more “this protest is a bit shit, isn’t it”.
“this protest is a bit shit, isn’t it”
Because you say so. Got it.
Because you say so.
Yeah, pretty clear from my short posts that I was just voicing my own opinion. Which isn’t that we should “forget protest”, merely that this one seems ill thought out.
You’re right, we should forget protest and just vote for a party that’s pro-environment. How’s that going, by the way ?
Hey, I just said they could be .. didn't say it was right or rational. Their position on the environmental challenges we face would probably sit way above what they think of JSO. And I fully appreciate that JSO do what they do because politicians and business is doing so little, so late. I'm pro-protest, more power to the people.
How do the JSO folks get around? Do they just walk everywhere?
Also, I wonder if anyone has ever told them what their smartphones are made from?
For those saying they're a bit shit and could do better, what could/should they be doing? I mean, go to an oil refinery and attempt to mess with it and you risk industrial accidents, will be arrested fast whatever you do even if you get in, and possibly get no coverage unless something goes wrong and the services are called out. The guy who stopped traffic on the bridge was held in custody for 14 months then jailed for 3 years, hardly seems proportional does it?
Hold up Wimbledon or the TdF or chuck soup on a covered painting and no-one's hurt, you get loads of press and it's your right to protest.
Ok DrJ – give me one measurable benefit to the amount of Co2 in the atmosphere / our reliance on fossil fuels that has came from yesterdays’ stunt?
Seriously?
How do the JSO folks get around? Do they just walk everywhere?
Also, I wonder if anyone has ever told them what their smartphones are made from?
Too funny. So environmental protest isn't valid unless the protestors wear humanely trapped animal skins and communicate with low-carbon smoke signals.
How do the JSO folks get around? Do they just walk everywhere?
Also, I wonder if anyone has ever told them what their smartphones are made from?
A warm welcome to Mr Gotcha : )
How do the JSO folks get around? Do they just walk everywhere?
Also, I wonder if anyone has ever told them what their smartphones are made from?
I wonder if you've done any slight bit of research into their aims......
Relative to their methods, their aims are actually incredibly moderate.
The aims of Just Stop Oil include:
1. Convincing the British government to end new fossil fuel licensing and production using civil resistance, direct action, traffic obstruction, and vandalism.
2. Demanding investment in renewable energy and better thermal insulation for buildings.
3. Raising awareness and encouraging people to reduce the usage of oil-powered vehicles.
1. Convincing the British government to end new fossil fuel licensing and production using civil resistance, direct action, traffic obstruction, and vandalism.
2. Demanding investment in renewable energy and better thermal insulation for buildings.
Big fat failure then. There is no way on earth than any UK government is going to take a blind bit of notice of them when creating their policies and approaches.
Including actual vandalism is not great either is it really, not going to add to their cause.
thisisnotaspoonFree Member
I wonder if you’ve done any slight bit of research into their aims……Relative to their methods, their aims are actually incredibly moderate.
I know what their aim is, but all they seem to be doing is getting on peoples nerves and making their cause look stupid. Obviously I don't have a better alternative.
Still wonder how they travel.
DrJFull Member
Too funny. So environmental protest isn’t valid unless the protestors wear humanely trapped animal skins and communicate with low-carbon smoke signals.
Exactly this, although they'd have to give up their Macbooks, Starbucks and Netflix. The vegans in their ranks might not be too happy about the animal skins though, humanely trapped or not.
1. Convincing the British government to end new fossil fuel licensing and production using civil resistance, direct action, traffic obstruction, and vandalism.
2. Demanding investment in renewable energy and better thermal insulation for buildings.Big fat failure then. There is no way on earth than any UK government is going to take a blind bit of notice of them when creating their policies and approaches.
Erm........
Labour have committed to exactly that. No new licenses (and a 78% windfall tax on existing operations and ending investment allowances that reduce tax burdens), And GB-Energy in whatever watered down form it ends up taking.
Exactly this, although they’d have to give up their Macbooks, Starbucks and Netflix. The vegans in their ranks might not be too happy about the animal skins though, humanely trapped or not.
What have macbooks, starbucks and netflix got to do with this?
I think the actions of jso actually make it harder for serious people to effect change. All they do is give the deniers another brush to tarnish them with on the old guilty by association. How can those who want to make serious change and policy do so without been seen to have given into these idiots actions
This is where I'm at. Deniers fall into two categories - probably more if I put my mind to it - once you get past the bat shit mentalists. You've got those that deny because even though they know the truth it's financially better to put you head in the sand. You think either your business model for making money or your way of life is too impacted by the perceived changes needed it's just easier to think they don't exist. Second group are just the ignorant and uneducated. The sort of people who form their understanding of the world by reading the Daily Mail, social media memes and nothing more. The first group rub their hands with glee with the antics of GSO because it make the argument of the environmental lobby seem even more alien to the second group. To the slowest thinking of the general population, the people who we actually need onside, the inconvenient truth gets buried even deeper behind a layer of moral outrage.
Erm……..
Labour have committed to exactly that. No new licenses (and a 78% windfall tax on existing operations and ending investment allowances that reduce tax burdens), And GB-Energy in whatever watered down form it ends up taking.
And that was because of JSO shit? No, didn't think so. So what is the point of them again if Labour are already committing to what they want, surely they should just be out campaigning for Labour.
They’re a bit shit anyway aren’t they?
Ah, you’re thinking of JLS there
I see why you got to where you got. But actually i was talking about stone henge.
I drove passed once, they look a bit shit.
And that was because of JSO shit? No, didn’t think so.
Maybe, maybe not. But I doubt many people even knew how O&G licenses worked and that stopping the issuing of new ones was even an option until JSO started shouting about it from motorway gantries. And now it's in the likely winning party's manifesto.
So no Starmer isn't capitulating to Eco-Terrorists*. But those Eco-Terrorists have brought the issue and proposed solution to the attention of enough people that it's a vote winner.
*Great, now I've got that Rise Against song in my head for the rest of the afternoon.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4JuUOAsNWc
www.youtube.com/h4JuUOAsNWc
The guy who stopped traffic on the bridge was held in custody for 14 months then jailed for 3 years, hardly seems proportional does it?
Seems entirely appropriate to me. I wonder how much excess emissions this silly stunt generated, not to mention the thousands inconvenienced who presumably are their target audience.
I have never understood why anyone things direct action has any influence on those who make policy. Most are looking for an excuse to kick the can down the road to be someone else’s problem to solve. This just makes that course of action easier to follow
What have macbooks, starbucks and netflix got to do with this?
They are more things that environmental protesters are not allowed to have. It's the Law. Apparently.
I have never understood why anyone things direct action has any influence on those who make policy.
I recommend an elementary history book.
I drove passed once, they look a bit shit.
what were you expecting? Dancing girls? A light show?
I have never understood why anyone things direct action has any influence on those who make policy. Most are looking for an excuse to kick the can down the road to be someone else’s problem to solve. This just makes that course of action easier to follow.
I feel like I'm repeating myself.
BUT 2/3 of JSOs DEMANDS HAVE MADE IT INTO THE MANIFESTO OF A PARTY HEADING FOR AN ABSOLUTELY HUGE MAJORITY.
Seems like an effective outcome for a few years protesting.
I have never understood why anyone things direct action has any influence on those who make policy.
err…..I don’t even know where to start with this one tbh. Have you never read any history at all. Even the last hundred years or so has some pretty big examples.
I’m also with @joshvegas Stonehenge is just shit. A big pile of rocks. Whoop de ****ing do! JSO and those that are upset by agent Orange (cornstarch) are just a bit crap too. The former should’ve knocked the entire thing over so that the latter could all explode with rage. Thus killing a large number of climate deniers/those stuck in the past and helping to move us forward a bit.
Just going to lob this in.....
As a kid, then a teen and a young adult I heard of the horrors of the IRA bombings and put them firmly on the 'baddies' side of the equation. Their cause was by default assigned the same fate in young Convert's eyes too.
Fast forward 30 odd years, I've learnt a bit more (and admittedly got a bit older) and from this UK mainland resident's perspective I can now see their cause. I'd probably say I am pro a united Ireland.
I'm pretty sure I'd have got there a lot sooner if the IRA hadn't been murdering quite some many people. Now, you could say - my opinion didn't matter. But I reckon it did. Millions and millions of us were by default anti a united Ireland because of the IRA. If a voting public in the rest of the UK had been won over by words instead of blinded from reason by bombs it might have changed history.
I’m pretty sure I’d have got there a lot sooner if the IRA hadn’t been murdering quite some many people. Now, you could say – my opinion didn’t matter. But I reckon it did. Millions and millions of us were by default anti a united Ireland because of the IRA. If a voting public in the rest of the UK had been won over by words instead of blinded from reason by bombs it might have changed history.
I think you've got that a bit backwards. Without the IRA the issue would never have been on the agenda.
I just love a bit of counterfactual history
I'm awaiting them to deface houses of parliament with wet wipes to have the wet wipes also hit them in the face .
SUCKERS!
Before it goes even more sideways, JSO are not eco terrorists or fighting in a way like the IRA, they are not a terrorist organisation, and the one sensible thing they do is avoid anything that can be seen as an act of terrorism, that is a line they do not want to even come close too in this day and age!
All I can say is, considering how angry some people manage to get about Just Stop Oil, it's going to be amazing to see their proportional reactions to climate change. "OMG they delayed my commute by 10 minutes, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE" my dude entire cities are going to be in the sea, that will make it somewhat harder to get to work. Immensely more damage has been done to monuments and artworks by pollution than could ever be done by protesters and the angriest most people ever seem to get about that is tutting that councils don't clean things enough.
They should protest in a way that's invisible and legal and uncontroversial so that it can be completely ignored, only multibillion dollar companies are allowed to destroy everything.
they are not a terrorist organisation,
Well obviously. My point is they alienate the unthinking majority who think negatively about cause based on their opinion of the protest method. Clearly there's levels and lobbing powder paint on rocks is not the same as killing people.
I drove passed once, they look a bit shit.
[img] 
[/img]
Yeah, right. Get a really good, close-up view, did you, in order to draw that conclusion? With the stones about 100m or so away from the road, and even with the traffic crawling along at its usual snails pace, unless you’re an even bigger idiot than you seem, you’ll have got about a glance of about a second, any longer and you’ll be stuffed in the back of the car in front.
Which is one of the issues that years and millions of pounds have been spent trying to stop, by tunnelling the road. Is everyone happy?
Nope, it’s too short, might destroy hypothetical archaeology that nobody knows about, unless they dig for it. Or the A303 shouldn’t be buried because drivers are absolutely entitled to crawl along at a snail’s pace risking an accident and snarling up the traffic for thousands every day. Or a bunch of other NIMBY whiney excuses.
In that sense, JsO might have a point - the perpetual traffic jam on the 303 absolutely needs to be stopped; I’ve wasted enough time stuck in it, but the reality is that the use of oil will never be stopped, it has far too many uses in such a vast range of essential commodities that it’ll never be stopped completely. As a fuel for cars, yes, eventually, and that’s no bad thing.
Oh, and it’s past, not passed; close, but no banana 🍌.
You’re better off going to Avebury, you can actually walk up to the stones and touch them, and there’s a pub in the centre of the circle. I haven’t been to Stonehenge since I was at junior school, when you could touch the stones, and it was a special, magical place.
Neither special or magical. Just some rocks. There are stone circles all over. Like a Neolithic J D Wetherspoons!
When the aliens pick over the ashes of the Earth's surface in a few centuries time, I wonder what they'll make of a species, with legs, that wouldn't give up driving SUVs 400 yards to drop their offspring (also with legs) off at school. Presumably just a shrug?
When the aliens pick over the ashes of the Earth’s surface in a few centuries time, I wonder what they’ll make of a species, with legs, that wouldn’t give up driving SUVs 400 yards to drop their offspring (also with legs) off at school. Presumably just a shrug?
In a few hundred years we'll have a high chance of still being around, colonising nearby planets and so on, the destruction of humanity is quite a slim chance in the long run.
the destruction of humanity is quite a slim chance in the long run
Ever seen the population growth curve of E.Coli in a petri dish?
I see no reason, given human nature, that the human population will not follow that to within +/- 1% deviation.
The world population is predicted to slow and stop increasing by the end of the century, and that's not including any major event, the only area that looks to be increasing will be Africa, which will be one of the areas most affected by climate change in that timescale, so may cause that prediction to fall away as well.
unless you’re an even bigger idiot than you seem, you’ll have got about a glance of about a second
Ahahahahahahahaha. I knew this thread would deliver.
I saw alot more than a second of the sodding things on that road thank you very much. But whatever gives you a chubby countzero...
Neither special or magical. Just some rocks. There are stone circles all over. Like a Neolithic J D Wetherspoons!
Pretty much this. I'll take Brodgar and Stenness for the atmosphere and a fraction of the honeypot morons thanks.
So no Starmer isn’t capitulating to Eco-Terrorists*. But those Eco-Terrorists have brought the issue and proposed solution to the attention of enough people that it’s a vote winner.
Nope, still don't agree but can't prove it either way so we will just have to believe what we believe.
Ever seen the population growth curve of E.Coli in a petri dish?
Yep. It'll grow right up to the confines of the container, or until the food source is exhausted. We are marginally more intelligent (at times) and can see the limits of both and take action beforehand to slow or reverse.
How do we weigh the disruption of some water soluble food grade dye being thrown on the glass in front of a painting, or on some stones, vs the disruption of a march that takes over a city centre. The material impact is chalk and cheese, yet one is considered noble and the other a disgrace. One has politicians on it, the other has politicians clamouring to condemn it.
[I've deliberately not said what the protests are for, nominate your own version. There's an obvious series of marches currently and if that's the one you contrast, in my mind they are both valid but if JSO took over a city centre for a few hours with a million person march how would that be received?]
>In a few hundred years we’ll have a high
>chance of still being around, colonising >nearby planets and so on, the destruction
>of humanity is quite a slim chance in the
>long run.
I wonder when even stupid people will realise that colonising other planets is quite a lot harder than sorting out the problems here on the planet we’ve been on for a few years.
I think you’ve got that a bit backwards. Without the IRA the issue would never have been on the agenda.
And yet Scotland managed to get to the point of a referendum on independence despite no equivalent of the IRA and similar levels of support for change.....
And yet Scotland managed to get to the point of a referendum on independence despite the an equivalent of the IRA…..
Oooft come on man thats a stretchy comparison...
maybe.....but to say that the concept of a united Ireland would not have been on the agenda without violence is farcical imo.
And yet Scotland managed to get to the point of a referendum on independence despite the an equivalent of the IRA…..
Not even close.
You do know that in the 1960's Irish Catholics didn't have full voting rights in NI.
There was basically segregation that ensured the Protestants got the better housing and the better jobs.
I wonder when even stupid people will realise that colonising other planets is quite a lot harder than sorting out the problems here on the planet we’ve been on for a few years.
The planet doesn't have problems, it's going nowhere (or rather it is, but it'll be back in 365 days time).
It won't be in the form that we currently have and may not support life of the form we have or life at all. Who knows what comes after us, might be brilliant, who are we to stand in the way of progress 😉
Not even close.
You do know that in the 1960’s Irish Catholics didn’t have full voting rights in NI.
There was basically segregation that ensured the Protestants got the better housing and the better jobs.
Well , yes I did.
My tangential point to this thread was that winning over the great unwashed in Englandshire (because that's where the bulk of the UK population is so generates the most mps etc) to your cause is best served by not alienating them before they have a chance to listen to your causes' merits. It's fickle and not very passionate, so the people deep in mire or totally wrapped up in the cause don't see it, but getting the turgid bulk of the population over the line and thinking the way you do is served well by making them think but not but pissing them off or upsetting them.
to say that the concept of a united Ireland would not have been on the agenda without violence is farcical imo.
Hard to know where to begin ... Oliver Cromwell maybe ?
I wonder when even stupid people will realise that colonising other planets is quite a lot harder than sorting out the problems here on the planet we’ve been on for a few years.
I was on about how we will advance as a species, not that we will be running away from Earth, in a few hundred years we'll be on Mars, we will have created technology far beyond where we are now, that is the belief of scientists, rather than we will be wiped out because of climate change or another disaster, which is a much smaller chance.
It won’t be in the form that we currently have and may not support life of the form we have or life at all. Who knows what comes after us, might be brilliant, who are we to stand in the way of progress 😉
Wasn't this the basic plot of Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy ?
I was on about how we will advance as a species
I don't much care about if we advance as a species or not. I care about if we survive as individuals, families, social groups. I care about myself, my family, my friends having enough to eat.
that is the belief of scientists, rather than we will be wiped out because of climate change or another disaster, which is a much smaller chance.
How odd. Most scientists I talk to or who’s work I read think we’re royally ****ed as a species unless we sort our shit out relatively quickly.
How odd. Most scientists I talk to or who’s work I read think we’re royally **** as a species unless we sort our shit out relatively quickly.
You need to talk to more optimistic people
You need to talk to more realistic ones. The problems we face as a species aren’t going anywhere. Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling I can’t hear you isn’t going to cut it. The Musks and Bezos’s of the world aren’t going to save us with space exploration. They’re a huge part of the problem