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Anybody else just shrug and not understand why people are outraged by a couple of protesters spraying rocks with paint that will disappear after a bit of rain? People have been drawing dicks on things since we learned how to draw. There’s so much shit going on in the world that I find it hard to see a reason to care about it. I honestly wouldn’t be bothered if it got covered in permanent marker or pushed over by a JCB like a giant set of dominos. Is it just me?
The right wing media control the narrative
They are just going to blame the snowflake wokery eco-zealots who want babies to die in ambulances as they block the roads...... or some such shit
I don't really care about a bit of protest, but I do think that Just Stop Oil folks need to realise that, whilst their cause is noble, and they're probably right, their approach to getting their message across is a bit shit.
^ this. What purpose do they think this is going to possibly serve?
^ this. What purpose do they think this is going to possibly serve?
They are on every mainstream news channel. Maybe that.
And?…….
I agree that their approach is a bit shit. Nothing they’ve done to date, at least to my limited knowledge, has got to the root of what they want. I suppose it is difficult to just stop oil without resorting to some seriously extreme tactics.
Media and the public have always railed against protest. Women have the vote and that was one of the most unpopular protests in history.
Women have the vote and that was one of the most unpopular protests in history.
Letter bombs and blowing shit up was part of the protest too. Seems to get forgotten about by a lot of people when looking back on it. No idea what the answer is. I just find it bizarre how genuinely outraged folk can get at something that is so trivial in the grand scheme. Similar to the Sycamore gap thing. Hundreds, if not thousands, of trees felled each day. Decimating rain forests, the lungs of the planet, that’s fine. That one tree from Robin Hood that Christian Slater sat in? HOW DARE YOU!
Well, if it didn’t cause outrage they wouldn’t be doing it. If it was a couple of rocks in the middle of Exmoor they wouldn’t do something like this. The point is to cause outrage and frankly I think it’s completely counterproductive.
You could understand the logic if they'd flown some drones over an oil refinery and dropped some orange powder over tanks or pipes, y'know, to just stop oil. Targeting an ancient monument that predates the oil industry by a few millennia makes them look like childish attention seekers. Sure they did get attention but if the overwhelming reaction is negative, to such an irrelevant and harmful action, what do they actually win but scorn and stronger reactions from the authorities and media? Weird.
I posted this in another thread so I’ll repost it here,
It is kinda ironic, that, although Stonehenge’s origins and purpose remain unclear, it is an ancient monument designed to align with the sun at the solstices. The sun is now frying the planet. 550 people have just been fried to death in Saudi Arabia in temperatures of over 50° C, yet some feel it’s more important to be outraged by some powder sprayed on 5000 year old monument than the extinction of life on planet earth.
Perhaps the media should highlight the damage done to rare lichen’s by air pollution instead?…………..Hah….hah….how silly of me…….cue our potential political leadership braying for their heads whilst cosying up to the real polluters.
Great point @somafunk although I’d add that Earth will be fine and new life will flourish. The whole argument needs reframing as saving humanity and other species, not the planet. The planet couldn’t give a shit and will adapt as it always has. We’re not even a blip on the radar and if we want to be more than that we need to sort ourselves out.
By all means protest and target things related to the oil industry either directly or by funding/sponsorship, but I'm not sure that applies to Stonehenge, which from memory has been the basis used to prevent further road building in the area. Just seems an odd target.
[i]Are[/i] "people" outraged tho? 🤔Anybody else just shrug and not understand why people are outraged
Yeah, the planet would adopt the “keep calm and carry on” approach, personally I’d like to the following as a starter.
I’d like to see every home, where possible, to have solar panels with battery storage and to be at least 75% self sufficient for electricity, all new builds to have complete self sufficiency with solar/battery/ashp/gshp/community heating boilers etc.
It would take a massive injection of Government backed cash/infrastructure/manpower for such a scheme but i feel this is essential if we are going to provide for the country as we attempt to get to net zero.
And as for Starmer and his Twitter outrage below……
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1803420501995344250
I tell him to “get in the ****ing sea”…..or words to that effect
Just seems an odd target.
Odd for oil reasons, not if the aim is publicity. Right near the solstice on a national monument, they wanted to get all the papers frothing and they achieved it perfectly. Whether it actually helps their cause is another matter.
TBH both sides are looking a bit childish to my view. JSO because it's pointless, apart from causing outrage, and the papers for the "OMG STONEHENGE WAS SPRAYPAINTED!!1!!1!" headlines when it was actually orange cornstarch 🙄
It's exactly what [many people] above said: they have a good message but stunts like this are counterproductive. On the other hand, if they did blow cornstarch at an oil refinery it wouldn't even make local headlines, so... 🤷♂️
Solar panels and batteries would do next to nothing for 3 months of the year. What we need is a lot of nuclear. Works 24/7 and as the French showed it can be done.
You could understand the logic if they’d flown some drones over an oil refinery and dropped some orange powder over tanks or pipes, y’know, to just stop oil.
That would likely fall under the prevention of terrorism act, and be judged extremely harshly in the courts
Nuclear is difficult to build at the pace required. Fails on both costs and timescales. Then there is the whole radioactive leftovers bit to contend with too. Not to mention our slap dash approach to maintaining infrastructure. Last thing we need is a massive radioactive lizard stomping about the place. Imagine what would happen if it trod on Stone Henge!
"Just Stop Oil are pathetic" from Starmer, that's really pathetic. **** it I'm voting Lib Dem or Green.
^ Jim Radcliffe (ineos and Brexit supporter) has backed starmer whilst ridiculing the idea of net zero, starmer seems perfectly comfortable with such backing so I guess we’ll see another change in 5 years.
Just Stop Oil do seem to be on a mission to make it easy for the general public to hate them and politicians to condemn them by being provocative in all the stupidest ways, but the outrage still manages to be worse.
Amazing what people find time to GAS about or be annoyed by really. They're generally younger people with some attitude, a canny message and there's no harm done. Good luck to them I reckon. The point needs to be made and they're doing more than I am about it.
I agree that net zero is a totally unrealistic objective. It's not achieveable even if everybody in the UK does everything they can. However, dramatic reductions in fossil fuel use are attainable and highly desireable. Starmer is making it clear that saving civilisation as we know it is so far down his agenda he wants to punish people who protest against fossil fuels rather than reduce fossil fuel dependance.
He's on the wrong side of history. Ernie posted a link to a Mosely site a few days back. A few years down the line the likes of Starmer will be judged in the way we now view the fascists of the 30s. They had it all wrong.
Is it because quite often these days people confuse activity with action?
Spot on Edukator
Spot on Edukator
Yep. Starmer manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at every opportunity. He could use it as an effective weapon against the Government. All that Cameron "cut the green crap" nonsense has cost the country billions in extra gas usage, more emissions, less home insulation (and therefore higher bills for the homeowner), climate change is a real threat...
He could have said how bad the Tory policies were, how he'd fix it, how JSO were just highlighting the issues - but no, he says he'll put them in jail. What a cock. 🙄
I don't think they really care about changing peoples' minds - none of what they're protesting about is new, it's been known about for years. I think they're more about being disruptors because no-one's taking it seriously so the volume on the message needs to be turned up. Good on them, I say.
Wow, so it's Starmer's fault, before he's even taken up the PM position 🤣
As for Just Stop Oil, they're a right wingers wet dream for protests, they wind up the public more than the organisations they're against, and every time it seems to be carried out by some student who can be derided for ticking all the 'woke' boxes just from a picture for the daily mail and so on to publish.
What happened between Extinction Rebellion doing their protests but trying to win hearts and minds, and now, with Just Stop Oil just antagonising the public as much as possible.
The green movement could do with more advocates that sit between the just-stop-oil children and serious climate scientists. There is a lack of sensible, relatable people in the middle and 90% of the Green Party are a huge part of the problem.
Son's mates have just turned up - mix of cars from a minty 90's Honda Prelude to a heavily modified Subaru BRZ in bright pink. They aren't bothered about climate change...
They ask my son, 'is your dad into cars ?' - there is a rather mint old 22 year old Nissan Primera on the drive and a very mint 12 Year old Qashqai - no, look in the garage..... ****in bikes everywhere !
You all make your own decisions about the environment. My and my wife's car don't do much miles.
Just Stop oil are just hissing folk off. Demonstrate your commitment like many folk do, don't drive.
This Stone Henge Manufactured Outrage
FTFY.
JSO deliberately used visually striking but not permanent dye. As protests go it was effective and pretty responsible.
Protesting how Tories want you to protest - silently, between the hours of 10am - 2pm and in allocated spaces only, tucked behind a big hedge - doesn't get anyone anywhere.
The people getting hot under the collar are the ones who think it is their god-given right to drive a 4 litre, 8 foot wide SUV for the school run and, pissed, from the golf club to home.
JSO deliberately used visually striking but not permanent dye. As protests go it was effective and pretty responsible.
How, what did it achieve, the paint is gone, but the headlines caused outrage for the day, same as all the previous attempts they've done, all i've seen since they came on to the scene is for the government to have a hell of an easier time imposing more stringent protesting laws due to the public seeing this lot being the normal standard protesters.
TBH they're not trying to be popular, they're trying to be visible. To that end picking targets like Stonehenge just before the solstice and conducting a relatively innocuous bit of disruption (in the grand scheme of things) which gets them in the press achieves their goals.
The debate that follows also serves their purposes quite well, what real harm was done Compared to the climate emergency? Does some food dye and cornstarch on some bits of stone that have shrugged off far worse and will remain just fine, especially while the middle-classes pay to gawp at them, even matter at all?
Ok then let's talk about something more important... Like man made climate change.and.possible mitigations perhaps(?)
"Just Stop Oil folks need to realise that, whilst their cause is noble, and they’re probably right"
well no, they're pampered middle class twits living in relative luxury at a time of unprecedented human wellbeing, all thanks to the modern world which is built on hydrocarbons and petrochemicals, spouting loopy doomsday end-of-the-world gibberish at the best of those invested in barely adequate faux-green 'alternative' energy sources.
As long as they're pissing off argee and grimep then they must be doing something right....cary on JSO.
As long as they’re pissing off argee and grimep then they must be doing something right….cary on JSO.
If it keeps you off the politics threads moaning about Starmer then Just Stop Oil has at least been useful in some way
As someone who wants us to switch from hydrocarbons even quicker than net zero requires (really, why wait, why transition slowly, do it NOW, especially in counties with modern economies like ours)… I found this stunt childish and completely lacking anything that would convince anyone of the argument being made. It just looks self indulgent, pointless and detached from society.
Left wing protesters at it again. Protesting without really knowing what they're doing. Just doing it because they think its fashionable.
It just looks self indulgent, pointless and detached from society.
Its odd because the basic premise does make some sense.
They target Stonehenge and the various paintings etc on the ground that they are priceless unique objects and then carry that across to the damage being done to the priceless unique Earth but it doesnt quite work.
Has it been cleaned off already? I would love to know how. With water? Brushes and hoses? That's got to be MUCH more damaging than blowing cornstarch at them with compressed air. Can we have some outrage and arrests please?
It's like an inverted reflection of the actions that need to be taken. You just have to look at the attitudes toward them that are on display in the media. How do you get from there, to where they are? Their willingness to put themselves in the position of taking the unpopular action is the same willingness everybody needs to have to tackle climate change.
The strategy can only be to keep on doing these things, to slowly chip away at the ignorant in the (likely vain) hope it might sow some seeds of doubt about climate denial. Perhaps.
I don't feel any need to brandish them negatively, which could be construed as showing support to the wrong side of climate change by those on the wrong side of climate change.
Ooof, well I miss-judged that then...
Watching the news and the JSO protest action came up, long story short, turns out my missus is amongst the disproportionately outraged, she frankly went swivel-eyed loon on the topic apparently the stones are magical, the more unhinged her proclamations became the more I smiled, the angrier she got. The environmental impact of cleaning the rocks allegedly causes catastrophic harms, I noted The diesel powered car on our driveway at that point...
She brought up the suffragettes unprompted, when I pointed out their less palatable deeds which ultimately got her the vote, she was non-plussed.
Her ultimate and very insightful position was JSO are "a bunch of ****s" and "we're ****ed anyway" so when I suggested she doesn't think we should address climate change and thinks protecting some rocks from cornstarch wielding crusties has higher priority, she went off on me again. Pointing out that the other thing people need in order to stare at the rocks and feel the woo is breathable air also scored me zero points.
All I said was I don't see the reason for all the outrage, people were graffiting and pissing on the things for decades before English heritage roped them off and started charging.
Shell, Esso and BP throw billions at advertising showing various quasi-mythical wind farms and EV changing stations, while they still make most of their money from flogging Dinosaur juice, JSO basically need these sort of stunts to get equivalent cut through, but yeah there is such a thing as "Bad press" perhaps.
I agreed to disagree, but even that was not good enough, apparently "England is it's monuments" and I should "value our heritage" . I just smiled, and told her I loved her... It's going to be a long weekend.
Before the stones became magically aligned and culturally entrenched, they had to be cemented in, and lintels mortared...
Nuclear is difficult to build at the pace required. Fails on both costs and timescales
Timescales would have been fine, if the Country's energy strategy and planning hadn't been binned in the 1980s when Thatcher's Tory Gov broke up the CEGB and sold the generating capacity to their city spuv mates for a quick buck at a fraction of it's true value. The problem is 30 + years of not building any.
The economy slowly slides into the sea, the infrastructure crumbling to post-industrial ruins while global megacorps smother the towns and cities like toxic mould infecting the inhabitants with subscription addiction. But wait, I hear faint echoes of And did those feet in ancient times... and a voice cuts through it all.
“England is it’s monuments”
How reassuring.
It’s going to be a long weekend.
If she mentions “we need a new patio”………be afraid……be very afraid.
@faustus - that photo doesn’t show anything of the sort. The lintel stones are held in place by a sort of mortise and tenon arrangement, and some stones were pinned with steel rods to prevent them from actually falling apart.
The return of one of the cores bored to take the steel rods has led to the discovery of the exact location of the source of the Sarcen stones, which is about twenty miles away.
The stones have been there for 5000 years, and have come close to being destroyed previously, they’re ancient and have very old colonies of litchens on them, living things which can give us information into air quality, especially being so close to the main road and they deserve to be treated with respect.
All these industries have big prominent headquarters buildings, and often are involved with major sponsorship deals, how about these people do something a bit risky, and really kick off at a sports event, like, oh, off the top of my head, running in front of the horses at Aintree or something; that might get the a few column inches…
The stones have been there for 5000 years, and have come close to being destroyed previously, they’re ancient and have very old colonies of litchens on them, living things which can give us information into air quality, especially being so close to the main road and they deserve to be treated with respect.
If only there were other stones as old as that which hadn't moved in so long.
Every protest is the Wrong Sort of Protest, or the Wrong Time to Protest, for some people.
It's not something I would have done but I'm bored by tone policing.
It would seem they’re now sponsoring EasyJet.
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1803684785979617334?s=46&t=8bXMCYO7QquqvQ0V5lkcDw
As for Stonehenge. That’s going to them publicly but it hasn’t done them any favours.
The point needs to be made and they’re doing more than I am about it.
All depends what you are measuring.
Are they getting in the media more than I am - undoubtedly
Are they changing anyones minds, any governments policies, any companies strategies (including Oil, Gas etc,. companies) - not as far as I can see
It would seem they’re now sponsoring EasyJet.
So how long before a Greens MPs gets caught betting on who's next to get sprayed orange?
JSOs whole point is about people/media etc getting outraged by a bit of orange but not outraged about much that is contributing to climate change.
Or they debate the methods not the subject itself.
Maybe it's all too complicated for the average newspaper reader / One Show viewer 🙂
"Are they changing anyones minds, any governments policies, any companies strategies (including Oil, Gas etc,. companies) – not as far as I can see"
I don't think they're trying to change minds. Many people will be entrenched for many mainly selfish reasons and aren't open to having their minds changed anyway. It's about waking up to the lack of caring about a situation generally and an effort to keep the topic from being smoothed over. If scientific research and the evidence in front of us isn't changing enough minds a protest isn't going to either.
SKS is, at his very core, a lawyer. He sees most everything through the eyes of the law and due process. I take his statement in that light. it doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about the environment and GBE shows that intention.
They are on every mainstream news channel. Maybe that.
And how many people actually went from seeing them on the news to actually reading what they stood for. Even me, a significant environmentalist wishes they’d put their energy to better use than defacing art work and vandalising history or causing massive property damage. Blockade refineries, stop air freight shipping additives to chemical companies, protest outside petroleum companies and ineos. But do something related.
Oh god! Grimep is one of them. I’ve more respect for flat earth nutters. At least they are amusing
These things are sent to try us.
We have a protest group here in the South Cotswolds that want to STOP LIME DOWN - the 1/2GW solar plant and battery storage plan for this area. Maybe JUST STOP OIL could come and suggest to people why, local solar and storage is worth some disruption as it will enable them to no longer use heating oil (which everyone in this area does) and therefore JUST STOP OIL, but no, they paint Stonehenge, stick themselves to artwork and damage private jets. Talk about fiddling around the edges.
We have a protest group here in the South Cotswolds that want to STOP LIME DOWN – the 1/2GW solar plant and battery storage plan for this area. Maybe JUST STOP OIL could come and suggest to people why, local solar and storage is worth some disruption as it will enable them to no longer use heating oil (which everyone in this area does) and therefore JUST STOP OIL, but no, they paint Stonehenge, stick themselves to artwork and damage private jets. Talk about fiddling around the edges.
Yeah, i'm just across from there, it certainly sets off the NIMBYs, especially in that area, which is weird as it's pretty barren, with the army barracks, dyson and a couple of villages.
I was lucky enough to get to the stones before the restrictions came in. I am still outraged that just before my visit (1967) some **** had performed the 1960s equivalent of tagging on them. I travelled by Austin Hypocrite 1100.
put their energy to better use than defacing art work and vandalising history or causing massive property damage.
Do they though? I haven't seen any actual vandalism or defacing of anything, just the creation of an impression of it.
Do they though?
Nope - just back from stonehenge. The orange stones might have brightened up what was otherwise a pretty uniformly shit morning but ... nothing
How about the private jets they damaged at Stanstead? Dependent on what they used (I’d guess they weren’t as considerate to these as to Stonehenge) it’ll cost hundreds of thousands along with substantial amounts of time, energy and money chamicals and FUEL to put right. It’ll need to be flown somewhere to be repaired/repainted.
Climate protesters threw soup at the Mona Lisa…why? Does anyone even know what group they were from or what they want to achieve. It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
Well, if it didn’t cause outrage they wouldn’t be doing it. If it was a couple of rocks in the middle of Exmoor they wouldn’t do something like this. The point is to cause outrage and frankly I think it’s completely counterproductive.
Except even on a remarkably climate change apathetic cycling forum like this we're discussing how should we go about convincing people to "just stop oil" if not orange cornflour.
I'd say they're being highly successful.
Climate protesters threw soup at the Mona Lisa…why? Does anyone even know what group they were from or what they want to achieve. It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
It reminds me more of arty style stuff you'd get from Emin or Hirst rather than a protest, but without knowing your audience, how exactly are they going to progress, what do they actually want at the end of the day, how are they exerting any pressure on governments and organisations when they're effectively doing the work for them in terms of public relations?
Just seems an odd target.
Yep, the very next day they sprayed a private jet which seems more in their lane.
JSO deliberately used visually striking but not permanent dye
They 'got away' with because it was dry and the dye could be blown off, had it been wet then it may have damaged (possibly killed, who knows) some lichen that grows there [which in of itself is a rare thing in that part of the world] For environmental protestors, that seems more than a little bit 'under' planned. Stone Henge has been mucked about with so much, it doesn't really represent anything more than the 'idea' of Neolithic life. However as symbols go, attacking a monument that serves as a reminder of times past when we did manage to live somewhat more harmoniously with the planet seems a bit skewed.
Action for actions sake
@CountZero - many of the stones have been concreted in, and it's current appearance owes much to work carried out in the early 20th century. Also, some lintels had mortar applied in the 60s to help secure them.
I'm not disputing it's prehistoric significance or how impressive a thing it is, it's more that it owes much of it's current reverence to cultural forces, particularly that of the traditions of heritage manufacture (not literally, but culturally). The picture above is just a little counterpoint to the idea it is inviolable, because as in the early 20th century and more recently, it is restored and maintained and has been subject to centuries of 'visitor management' and all that entails (inc. charging entry). Of course, judicious use of steel and cement and fences have helped it to be viewed and revered by millions, and to become a world heritage site.
The JSO protest in this context is just another PR stunt trying to leverage people's cultural sensibilities. Their cause is just but there methods are becoming more obtuse. Less cultural insult for me in that the mechanics of this kind of cultural reverence impact my feeling of any potential 'outrage'. It sometimes feels like JSO are wondering into the territory of Fathers4Justice protests: partly tragic, distant from the aims and subject of protest.
How about the private jets they damaged at Stanstead?
I didn't see that, I stand corrected if so. Well, it's taking the direct action some say they should : )
how exactly are they going to progress, what do they actually want at the end of the day, how are they exerting any pressure on governments and organisations when they’re effectively doing the work for them in terms of public relations?
"Because all the work of so many other organisations using research, reason and debate has done so well so far, right?" ..is the argument I heard.
They're challenging people's own reactions. The flaw I see is that the people who don't care are not likely to be persuaded because you're asking people to act in ways that they see as losing out personally. So much of this is about whether you think of your own needs Vs thinking about how we all fit into this whole system. And no it's not a fair system, I get it .. taking the debate down to finer points is endless. The basic point is, if you're so annoyed by a kid with blue hair throwing something orange on something you see as valuable .. why don't you care about things that are far more valuable or why aren't you questioning private jet use, or people still flying 4x a year for city weekend breaks, or buying massive SUVs, etc (some will, I'm talking generally).
I sound like a JSO supporter, I know. I'm not sure I really am tbh but I can hear what they're getting at. And I don't believe they're turning anyone against the general climate cause at all .. that would be some dumb thinking if you were influenced against it by just this. People just use this kind of thing as an excuse not to have to think about their own part in it all. They don't like kids with blue hair, they don't like people who have some spirit or rebellion in them, they want to keep consuming carefree, they're people who replace thinking with cynicism because it's easier, they have money invested in the status quo, whatever.
All in all the protests are a general level point and I don't see how attacking it via minor logic points undermines it, if anything it's dong what they're protesting about - being enraged or into debate about them rather than turning it on the politicians who don't act or the deniers and private jet users etc.
The basic point is, if you’re so annoyed by a kid with blue hair throwing something orange on something you see as valuable .. why don’t you care about things that are far more valuable or why aren’t you questioning private jet use, or people still flying 4x a year for city weekend breaks, or buying massive SUVs, etc (some will, I’m talking generally).
Because the folks that JSO are aiming their protest at don't really see Stone Henge as valuable either. What's valuable to them is their 4x4 or their flight to Dubai. I'd have more sympathy with the direct action that keeps on smashing the car-windows of folks that live in city centres and drive Range Rovers, than the folks throwing a bit of dye on some stones that gets washed off and like the newspaper headline - is instantly forgotten. It's literally meaningless.
It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
It's not a popular opinion of mine but I thought the Mona Lisa stunt was one of the most interesting and impactful protest statements I can think of. I don't know if or how much it furthers the cause but if it gets a few people thinking and talking about it in a dialectic way rather than media comments rage way, it's better than not doing it at all. It raises the topic and it leaves it to us to question or react. For that reason alone I find it hard to be an 'anti'.
The Highways Agency will do a lot more damage to the whole site when they build the road tunnel.
I’m looking forward to seeing them in court, both criminal and civil. Committing criminal damage is not acceptable imho. It’s just vandalism. I hope they are prosecuted and the owners of the planes sue them.
I have no problem with peaceful protest but all this does is harm their cause as no one with a sensible solution wants to risk association with them. It’s very clear jso have no credible solution. Even their vandals rely on oil to perform these stunts because they can’t live without oil.