[Closed] This should send the right-wingers into full xenophobia mode

He's got a good point. You know your economy is up the shitter when people up to their eyeballs in debt are buying £500 iphones, driving this year's AUDI and holidaying in the Seychelles, all using funny money.

"I think you should go back to doing what I call real business - producing goods, providing services, trading - not just moving figures in bank books, which is what you are doing."

Difficult to fault the logic there, really

I thought this was going to be a thread about the Enfield poltergeist..

'coming over 'ere from the other side on their benefits migration.. stealing our jobs..'

nowt right wing about that. common sense.

he has the massive advantage of being a foreign poitician so seems to have accidentally told the truth, probably as there is no 'cost' to him. Our politicians could run the country properly or they can stay elected by telling us what we want to hear .............

money in a year than they can spend in a lifetime.

Wanna bet?

Why would this article send RWers, or anyone else, into "full xenophobia mode"?

They might wonder why it takes the BBC so long to get round to covering a story and viewpoint covered in the FT a month ago, but Mohamad makes pretty uncontraversial points with the possible exception of whether currencies should be fixed or not.

Mohamad knows very well the dangers of allowing financial services to run wild (as they did in the Malaysia and Thailand pre-crisis) and is correct to point out the imbalances in the UK and other Europeam markets towards financial services (and the public sector). We are now seeing the painful adjustments in both sectors that will continue for quite a while.

He notes, in the FT (11 Jan), the irony between the policies advocated by the West during the crisis in Asia ie, raise interest rates, let banks and businesses go bust, have a budget surplus, and the measures currently being implemented in the crisis of west.

What wing of politics does the notion that, "European workers are overpaid and unproductive...I think that you have paid your workers far to much money for much less work." come from?

Mohamad will always have an anti-market view when it comes to FX markets as the currency markets laid bare the policy mistakes that he made in a particularly harsh manner. But perhaps the really interesting thing out of this article and the FT version is the idea of whether after devaluation the PIGS should re-fix their currencies at a new level in the same way as Malaysia. Thats a timely question to ask as Greece and Portugal near default and possible devaluation.

Rather than creating any xenophobia, I think that Mohamad raises some very interesting point, not least that this is a crisis of western economics and politics not a global one!!

The title of his FT article was "The west needs to go back to capitalist basics."

RJ ...or buying £3-4k mtbs on tick!!!!!

wot he said is good.

No, I think right wingers generally grasp this fact.

It's those on the left who still refuse to accept that there isn't a magical money tree after all.

ditch_jockey could you describe to us what you think to be right wing?. I dont know what you are getting at, so do tell.

For once Mahathir talks a lot of sense, who could disagree that Europe needs to work hard and live within it's means? He might have something to say when France elects Francois Hollande as it's next President on a platform to return to universal retirement at 60 from the current grand old age of 62.

Mahathir is a little less sound on the gays and the Jews which definately upsets this right winger.

OP in sh*t stirring shocka.

Does appear to have scored an own goal however 😉

As an attempted troll DJ this isnt going very well is it. Don't be shy, lets be having you.

"Teamhurtmore in knows what he's talking about shocker"

Not the first time either.

I wish I was clever enough to understand that geetee. One day perhaps? Anyway lunch over now. Time to get back to work. 😉

Surely this post will have anyone of a rightwing/conservative disposition agreeing with the assessment of Asian countries? This is the opposite of xenophobia.
Bad troll by OP.

I do however take exception to the implied assumption that those on the right of politics are racist/xenophobic and those on the left not.
The two are completley separate (ignoring nut job groups like EDL).

I wish I was clever enough to understand that geetee.

I was referring to the, now closed, 'What's the point of bonuses?' thread where you broke out in a rash of well informed and balanced insight. It was in stark contrast to the usual garbage, as is the above post.

But like you said. Back to work....

I do however take exception to the implied assumption that those on the right of politics are racist/xenophobic and those on the left not.

This is what I was thinking too. A properly nasty little troll you are ditch_jockey. Why don't you go outside and play with the traffic.

Actually, if you wanted to really stir up some debate much better to quote Harjeet Johal (who I assume is British so no need to raise the concept of xenophobia or racism) and his "interesting' argument in yesterday's FT that it is, "Time to let the British High Street Die."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fec9cd1e-51a3-11e1-a30c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1lb9igwkp

Now that is "quite" an argument - and one worth debating!

[Tea made, back to work again. Is it just the cold or am I drinking a lot more tea and coffee? Anyone else?]

Mahathir Mohamad for the next UK Prime Minister, based on that BBC article.

It's the most sense I've ever heard from a politician (ok, ex-politician).

Our politicians could run the country properly or they can stay elected by telling us what we want to hear

This is one of my biggest bug-bears with UK politics - politicians seem more interested in being popular than actually taking the job by the scruff of the neck and making the tough/unpopular decisions

Now that is "quite" an argument - and one worth debating!

Honestly, that article is so obvious that it defies debate!

I've never quite understood how quick people are to criticise the out of town/large multiple retailers and equally as quick to shop in them!

If you liked the local book shop so much why the **** didn't you shop there?

I hate to say this but I think the evil ex-PM of Msia is correct in his observation. In the past the ex-PM favourite hobby was either to create more cronies or to jail people ...

Oh ya ... the Asian giants have not completely woken up yet so plenty more to come.

🙄

Yes - a quiet word in ditch's shell-like.

It is possible to be economically conservative and socially liberal at the same time, ditch old boy.

bravohotel9er - Member

No, I think right wingers generally grasp this fact.

Really? 🙄

You guys are so funny.

Great bait there ditch jockey. You didn't need to do much to get the resident right whinge to come on here and defend themselves over a non-issue news article.

It's those on the left who still refuse to accept that there isn't a magical money tree after all.

That tree exists. It's still paying out bonuses and the like to business leaders while everyone else gets squeezed.

He also deployed the controversial Internal Security Act to detain activists, non-mainstream religious figures, and political opponents including his sacked deputy, Anwar Ibrahim.

He also hates gays and jews.

Not for me thanks chef.

Joao - but can you imagine a UK PM standing up and saying. "OK workers, you are all going to have to work a lot harder, for less money...Oh and its going to be very hard for many years to come"? Or is that what the current one is saying?

When you look at what "globalisation' has done to the supply of labour (increased massively), this is true but the culture/context of UK political and economic debate make such statements impossible. The frightening thing is that the young today are not being prepared properly for the scary reality of what global forces are doing to their likely future earnings.

Geetee - so what do you do with the high streets?

Great bait there ditch jockey. You didn't need to do much to get the resident right whinge to come on here and defend themselves over a non-issue news article.

Great bait there ditch jockey. You didn't need to do much to get the resident right whinge to come on here and defend themselves over a non-issue news article.

and then....

That tree exists. It's still paying out bonuses and the like to business leaders and the like while everyone else gets squeezed

:roll:Oh the irony

TJ, I don't think you'll find any right wingers arguing with living within your means. Have seen way more copies of the Guardian at 'no cuts' events than the DT*.

*Not actually true but I'm sure you get my point.

Geetee - so what do you do with the high streets?

copy the dutch model using planning laws to prevent tescos and the like killing the high streets.

You are not allowed to build large food retailers out of the town centres. result - high streets that remain the place to shop.

Are you American geeTee?

jruk - have you not seen them all - they guys on this thread even - defending the huge bonuses?

There is no need for cuts at all if the rich are made to pay a decent amount of tax.

We are a low tax economy.

Geetee - so what do you do with the high streets?

One of the greatest challenges associated with high street retailing, at least as far as I can see, is that the cost of operation is greatly influenced by the most efficient/profitable operator. Retailing is far from homogenous; selling fruit and veg is nothing like selling TVs, if you're separating them out as different businesses ( and this is why the multiple retailers have killed the market for books, electricals and soon clothes)

For years, the hurdle cost of operating on the high street was set at a level that a lot of companies could afford to meet because we as consumers spent our way to bankruptcy. Consequently you had retailers in business who had no rights being in business - Peacocks? Wittards? For the love of retail, how any one sustained a business model like those was beyond me. Where's the profit in selling s**t tea and clothes?

Their models burst when everyone suddenly realised how poor we all really were. There's nothing like not knowing where the next meal is coming from to focus the mind on whether I really need that piece of crap clothing or that boutique tea blend.

The problem is that the infrastructure that serves the retail industry, the input costs, does not sustain high street retailing, at least, not until the rates and rents on those properties fall to close to zero, at which point there will be a greater range of retailing concepts that might be able to survive on the high street.

This is just a problem of lag in a self adjusting system. High street retailing doesn't have to die, you only have to look at the number of charity shops that have opened up to see that there is a model that can work if the input costs are low enough.

So.. how do we just 'go back' to manufacturing stuff? Doesn't there need to be like, a market and stuff? And wouldn't we need to be like, really competitive and stuff?

Molgrips we have a very competitive manufacturing industry. It's world class where it exists.

It's just not mass manufacturing. It's niche, high value, high complexity, specialist manufacturing.

We, like the Americans, have never been able to mass manufacture cars, but we're damn good at building F1 cars.

So why is high st retailing expensive? Rents are expensive, but why? The properties aren't new. Maybe someone's creaming a lot of money off the top here.

Seems to me that the high st have a very easy captive market, because lots of people want to go 'into town' on a Saturday.

and this is why the multiple retailers have killed the market for books, electricals and soon clothes

Ah yes.. the electrical retailers. Why is there only one big chain on the high st when that particular company is utterly awful?

We, like the Americans, have never been able to mass manufacture cars,

We still manufacture many car makes here as do the americans in america

as for never been able to do it 😯

ford
Morris
Gm motors
Rover
Landrover
Triumph
I assume you get the picture

You need both high and low end market.

Not everyone is highly skilled to work in the high end sector and not everyone can afford high end stuff.

I have to admit that I hate the high street these days. You could be in nearly any city in the UK; same rubbish shops, same products, same choice.
The money men need to make rents more affordable so that we can have independent retailers reappear and parking must be free and plentiful. Otherwise, it'll be out of town or internet for me.

the issue with the high streets is simply the out of townshopping centres and the large supermarkets taking away the customers.

If you want a thriving town centre / high street you have to stop this happening. thats the dutch model. there is no tescos in the Netherlands as the tesco model is effectively banned

So why is high st retailing expensive? Rents are expensive, but why? The properties aren't new. Maybe someone's creaming a lot of money off the top here.

The domestic property boom a few years back wasn't the only boom. There was a lot of buying into commercial property and those who did that took out large sums of money to do so, which they still have to pay back of course, hence still high rents in some cases.

But also, high business rates, very little car parking, parking Naz...attendants, high prices for council car parking.

The car. It's so much easier to go to an out of town super market or shopping complex, park and do your shopping, and on the way out fill the car up with fuel, which is one of the reasons petrol stations are disappearing.

More people owning cars has changed the way we shop. and the Internet of course.

we have a very competitive manufacturing industry. It's world class where it exists. It's just not mass manufacturing.

We are still in the top ten of the worlds biggest manufacturing economies I'm led to believe. We just don't churn out quantity.

TJ you never let me down. A solution for everything as long as it includes the mighty state banning something or otherwise telling us all what do do.

Is that the Malaysian Prime Minister?

Don't anyone go playing 'Relax' now whilst I'm around..

TJ you never let me down. A solution for everything as long as it includes the mighty state banning something or otherwise telling us all what do do.

Unfortunately mcboo, it has been a lack the state doing anything (like De-regulation) that has helped us into this mess in the first place.

The state may not be the perfect mechanism for control, but those that replaced it have failed.

The state tells us what to do anyway, you just object to the state telling you what to do if it interferes with your business interests.

We are still in the top ten of the worlds biggest manufacturing economies I'm led to believe. We just don't churn out quantity.

Indeed, we appear to do much worse in manufacturing innovation surveys. So seems that Mohamad was correct then....and the implications for wages are.....?

Unfortunately mcboo, it has been a lack the state doing anything (like De-regulation) that has helped us into this mess in the first place.

I don't know how this ugly titled thread turned into a debate on the high street, but my tuppence-worth......The good old days for high street shops are gone and arent ever coming back. Blame Tesco if you want but a combination of out of town supermarkets and the web have changed how we shop and nothing is going to turn back the clock. Amazon is the Walmart of the web....I buy a huge amount of basic household goods on it, not to mention books and electronics. Weekly shop comes online from Ocado or Sainsburys.

We have a fantastic high street, full of great independent shops of all flavours, some usual chains like Starbucks too. But then I'm very lucky to live there.

Mcboo - so no planning controls at all needed then?

I was astonished at the variety and buoyant nature of the shops in the dutch town centres so I looked into why - Its basically down to planning policies.

I quite like supermarkets. Huge choice, several price levels, minimal time spent shopping, no fuss.

High streets are good for restaurants, niche goods and the like. That's about it.

Unfortunately mcboo, it has been a lack the state doing anything (like De-regulation) that has helped us into this mess in the first place.

The state may not be the perfect mechanism for control, but those that replaced it have failed.

The state tells us what to do anyway, you just object to the state telling you what to do if it interferes with your business interests.

Just a long way of arguing for socialism in a different name. No thank you.

The state may not be the perfect mechanism for control, but those that replaced it have failed.

Sometimes, sometimes not...lets take MTB

Helmet - shop at trail centre £90, Wiggle £50, On One £40 - where do you buy your helmet? Has competition increased your welfare or not? Does your wage go further or less? How should the state intervene here? What was it that Elfin used to say about LBS etc?

Ok simplistic analogy, but its funny how easy it is to overlook these things? 😉

so Mcboo - no planning controls in your world at all?

Mcboo - so no planning controls at all needed then?

Yes TJ thats clearly what I'm asking for. You're really on fire today arent you fella?

I was astonished at the variety and buoyant nature of the shops in the dutch town centres so I looked into why - Its basically down to planning policies.

This could be implemented for the future,I.e, no more large out of town shopping complexes, don't know how successful given the power supermarkets and the like have over Governments.

But what's done is done. Can't start rolling back changes that have been made to date, unless you are thinking of banning the car and the internet TJ.

High streets are good for restaurants, niche goods and the like. That's about it.

This is pretty much the way it's going, but niche products sometime don't do well in a difficult economic climate.

You could be in nearly any city in the UK; same rubbish shops, same products, same choice

When was this different? Years ago there were still lots of rubbish shops, they just had different names over the doors.

TJ - are you saying our supermarkets should be small and in-town? Or should we go into town and trawl around butchers and green grocers? This would cost more, as outlined above. Maybe you should tell mboy on the other thread that he has to find some extra money cos his food bill would go up..?

If we want it cheap it has to be big, and if it's going to be big it's not going in town.

Now - Cardiff has a high st and out of town shops. Both are equally busy. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to park in town than at any of the out of town places incidentally. We like to go into town because it's a nice place to walk around and get food. High St and out of town can co-exist.

Anyway. Ask yourself why out of town supermarkets are so popular. It's cos we like doing our weekly shopping in them. You are suggesting stopping us from doing what we want...

Now - Cardiff has a high st and out of town shops. Both are equally busy. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to park in town than at any of the out of town places incidentally. We like to go into town because it's a nice place to walk around and get food. High St and out of town can co-exist.

See also Salisbury. Many shops are actually thriving in the town centre, or at least those that are any good!

at least those that are any good

Bingo. Seems like old skool shopkeepers just stock the same crap they always have and expect people to shop there just because. Then they go out of business and whine about it.

People go on about how John Lewis is successful because of its employee ownership model. That's not why it's successful - it's because it sells lovely stuff, and the assistants have had training in how to be nice and professional to the customers. In other words, they are figuring out what makes people happy.

The other electronic retailers seem to be concerned about making deals with distributors and stocking whatever same old junk they get from them, as far as I can tell.

Oh to live back in Paris - hardly any supermarkets, buy [b]fresh[/b] food every day, from [b]specialist[/b] shops to be [b]consumed immediately[/b]....

...after wiping the dog mess on every pavement off your shoes!!! 😉

There are "some" good High Streets out there -[b] wonder what drives them to be different[/b]? What do Cardiff and Salisbury do differently?

TJ - are you saying our supermarkets should be small and in-town? Or should we go into town and trawl around butchers and green grocers? This would cost more, as outlined above.

Both - and why would it cost more?

Mohamad would approve:

http://www.doorstep.com.my/

The whole 'High Street' issue has been solved

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/feb/07/retail-trade-north-south-divide?newsfeed=true ]here[/url]

Mary Portas made 28 recomendations about reviving the retail centres.

The government are going to share out £1 million. YES, A WHOLE £1 MILLION between the 12 most deprived and financially devastated town centres in the country (all up north)

REJOICE! REJOICE! WE'RE SAVED!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure how much the local council will have had to cut already to services. But that million between them is bound to cover it!

Good question THM.

1) Cardiff has a huge catchment area. Lots of crappy towns up in the Valleys that have train and road links. Seems like the majority of voices you hear on the weekend in town are Valleys or West Wales accents. Lots of people also come down by train to drink in the evening - only possible because the good network of branch lines that survived Beeching.

2) It has town centre shopping centres. The Cardiff equivalent of the Trafford centre or Cribbs Causeway is actually in the middle of town and surrounded by normal shops. And a castle, a nice riverside park, the civic centre and a big chunk of the university.

3) There are loads of modern easy to use car parks. Some of them are pretty expensive mind.

4) It seems to have a sort of critical mass of amenities. Possibly because the Millenium Stadium and the Arms Park being right in town. This means there are lots of hotels are in town to accommodate the rugby fans.. then there are lots of restaurants and bars. There's also a big concert venue (Motorpoint Arena used to be CIA) that also does exhibitions, and two big multiscreen cinemas - I'm talking 13 screens and all. Not many other towns have their multiplexes in the town centre.

Both - and why would it cost more?

Well larger shops have lower costs. Stuff is cheaper in larger quantities. A big supermarket in the middle of Cardiff would cost a fortune in land or rent. That's why they are out of town now.

Just a long way of arguing for socialism in a different name. No thank you.

So it does effect your interests. Nice to know where an "individuals" interests lie.

El-bent, given you first comment on the OP above, is this merely more bait or do you really think that the state has been un-involved in the UK economy?

Un-involved, no, not involved enough, yes.

Helmet - shop at trail centre £90, Wiggle £50, On One £40 - where do you buy your helmet? Has competition increased your welfare or not? Does your wage go further or less? How should the state intervene here?

You are talking about price controls, which is quite a quirky way of trying to make me look like an absolute socialist if I agreed with your scenario.

Competition is good in a lot of things, but I'm against taking that particular model to the nth degree.

Good question THM.

Agreed.

Salisbury? Well, good road and rail links in to town certainly helps, as do;
- High quality specialists (Such as bike shop, gun shop, snowboard shop, sewing machine shop, home-brew shop, hardware stores, etc) all of whom have made a big effort on service, service, service
- Really good, proper market, with a REAL farmer's market included
- Supermarkets in town centre (Sainsbburys and Tesco)
- Large supermarket within a nice stroll distance away (Waitrose, for those of us willing to walk from there in to town, it's rather nice!)
- Lots of nice places for lunch/coffee etc, and not just the drab chain-cafes
- It's a really nice City to be in, bringing in tourists as well

Salisbury?

But doesn't the wealth of the local population come into it? There are plenty of these types of shops where I live due to the wealth of the local population who can financially support it and "prefer" to shop this way.

I wonder if this model would be successful it it were transplanted to Consett.

El-bent, not trying to make you look anything, genuine question. I was not thinking about price controls (but since you mention them, remember how successful they were when Tory and Lab gov's tried them - prices and incomes policies?) more that there are less obvious benefits from competition that are often overlooked by those that enjoy them.

I wonder if this model would be successful it it were transplanted to Consett.

Another good question.

What about the demographic of Salisbury? Isn't it a fairly affluent place? I think this has a bearing too.

I'm thinking of Ludlow as another example. It does well. It used to be a pretty basic country town full of yokels and then somehow it attracted hoardes of middle class foodie yahoos from all over the country. So now it has fancy restaurants and 'nick nack' shops interspersed with cheap newsagents and scruffy pubs. They used to have a no Tesco policy but relented, letting one go in the spot vacated by the cattle market about 15 years ago or so (told you it was a country town - cattle market in town centre!). Many of the nicer town centre shops are patronised by well off retirees who enjoy ambling about town in the week.

El-bent, not trying to make you look anything, genuine question. I was not thinking about price controls (but since you mention them, remember how successful they were when Tory and Lab gov's tried them) more that there are less obvious benefits from competition that are often overlooked by those that enjoy them.

Fair enough. There are benefits to competition, just as there are benefits to keeping some stuff out of it.

Fair enough. There are benefits to competition, just as there are benefits to keeping some stuff out of it.

Possibly true. Funny, this thread is distracting me from finishing revision notes/briefs for my son and his mates on arguments for restricting free trade!!! Must get back to it now! [Quite a civil debate for STW especially given the topic and the OP and title!!]

And enough of this patronising garbage about a past before Tesco where our high streets were places of individuality, and tender, loving service. Who the hell wants to go back to the 1980s anyway? You guys arguing for state intervention to control supermarkets would have been the same people opposing selling off BT. Can you imagine if BT still had a monopoly on your cell phone? You think you would be getting an iPhone package for £30 a month? The answer is no.

Woolworths was the poster boy victim of a changing market. Ours closed down and was replaced by a lovely little Waitrose which everyone loves. I only miss Woolies when I need to buy empty plastic boxes at short notice. Thats a market economy, give the public what they want.

You guys arguing for state intervention to control supermarkets would have been the same people opposing selling off BT. Can you imagine if BT still had a monopoly on your cell phone? You think you would be getting an iPhone package for £30 a month? The answer is no.

Interesting, BT is something I wouldn't re-nationalise, but they still hold a monopoly over the infrastructure.

But what about the water companies? I can't phone up offwat and ask them whether I can change water suppliers as mine is a little expensive. A privatised monopoly.

Interesting, BT is something I wouldn't re-nationalise, but they still hold a monopoly over the infrastructure.

Really? Who knew.

Hasn't this thread missed the essential thrust about what the dude was saying which was we have to focus less on money creating more paper money, grind coffee beans and stop ****ing with peoples currency?

Which I tend to agree with.

As to the high street having recently had the rent increased mid recession from 10 k to 15k per annum on our store which had to close down and relocate back to a little industrial unit we started out on 3 three years ago by some rich bitch landlady who doesn't quite understand why we can't earn an extra five grand a year selling the stuff we sell, with tumbleweed blowing down the high street most days and early closing on Wednesday. The Vat having increased to 20% which effectively switched business off last year (always rely on the Tories to really grind a recession home) so in one year we were almost wiped out at that store.
Now we're back in our little industrial unit, folk can drive here in their vans and park, buy their snowboards and chew the cud without worrying about parking [s]nazis[/s]attendants stickering up their cars, and so far this year our business is recovering, so we're all for out of town shop units, just wish there were more of them available to the type of small shop we are.

High streets are now the province of charity stores, coffee shops, banks & building societies, big issue selling romanies, with the odd busker and chugger here and there, best avoided.

ford
Morris
Gm motors
Rover
Landrover
Triumph
I assume you get the picture

With a list like that I assume you [i]don't [/i] get the picture.

Our car manufacturing is not 'mass' is specialist, but we're very good at it. Luxury brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar and Range Rover are niche players and seeing strong demand from China right now.

Most of the value in these brands is in just that, the brand. They don't represent absolute quality on any higher level than say BMW, VAG or Honda.

High streets are now the province of charity stores, coffee shops, banks & building societies, big issue selling romanies, with the odd busker and chugger here and there, best avoided

In sh*t towns, maybe. Not in nice ones 🙂

Hasn't this thread missed the essential thrust about what the dude was saying which was we have to focus less on money creating more paper money, grind coffee beans and stop **** with peoples currency?

Ok - why?

We used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?

molgrips - Member

Ok - why?

We used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?

Same reason we no longer attempt to pay local single speed riding proles to dig stuff out of the ground, we buy it from places where trade unions haven't given them an over inflated sense of their worth.

trade unions haven't given them an over inflated sense of their worth

You think trade unionism is the only reason China and India make stuff so cheaply? Hehe 🙂

All these worthless financiers moving money around are a big part of the reason that people have enough money to buy snowboards from you and jet around Europe using them.

molgrips - Member

You think trade unionism is the only reason China and India make stuff so cheaply? Hehe

You know some other reason?

In as much as the trade union movement back the labour party, the labour party gave us the welfare state, the welfare state keeps wages high comparatively speaking, if you're looking for the reason wages in India & China have lower wages.
The material cost in a Snowboard is the same wether it's built in China or Europe, but in China they leave the factory for as little as $50. whereas in the European facilities they'll be minimum 90 € with the benefit of a mechanised production line.

Wouldn't it be nice to manufacture snowboards in England, someone tried it once, didn't last long.

In the States it was sad when K2 closed Vazon island in the late nineties, early noughties but....

As the man said we're paying ourselves too much to do too little.

molgrips - Member

We used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?

Actually we didn't. UK manufacturing value has grown most years in the last 50, and was at an all time high in 2008. In 2010 we were the 7th biggest industrial producer in the world.

In as much as the trade union movement back the labour party, the labour party gave us the welfare state, the welfare state keeps wages high comparatively speaking, if you're looking for the reason wages in India & China have lower wages.

I think the welfare state is only a small part in this. Living on an island and having to import so much does add to the cost of materials and subsequently the cost of living.

I find this whole business of sacrificing the welfare state and our living standards to compete with two nations that both have 1bn+ populations and far lower living standards a bit bizarre. We can't compete with them at what is now their own game, so we should play something else.

But using this to justify the scrapping of the welfare state, and the social protections that unions in past have thought for is entirely predictable...from right wingers.