[Closed] This Obesity Thing

That's great - I highly doubt that you'll be able to keep up doing a food diary/'exercise prog' long term though.

Everyone loves an optimist.

Edit: Just to check. Has the OP actually been back to the thread?

Everyone loves an optimist.

I aim to please. 🙂

Not meaning to be negative, but virtually everything you read and personal experience suggests that 'being on a diet' and a 'program' isn't something you can keep up long term - you need to make lifestyle changes instead.

[i]you need to make lifestyle changes instead. [/i]

Yay ! [i]'we'[/i], this merry little band of us here on STW. Established this fact years ago, back in the days when Molgrips would have arguments with iDave, of biblical proportions. Which seemed to go on and on and on and on and on and on, etc.

I think we do have personal responsibility to think about what and above all how much we eat and how much exercise we do.

Yes, but for many people they haven't a clue what they should be eating, because of all the bad information fed to us as LMP says.

Edit: Just to check. Has the OP actually been back to the thread?

Could this be the most successful troll of all time?

Not meaning to be negative, but virtually everything you read and personal experience suggests that 'being on a diet' and a 'program' isn't something you can keep up long term - you need to make lifestyle changes instead.

Hugely true and very important.

Sad to say, I've watched people yo-yo diet on every program that has appeared over the last 10 years, and I know one person who has succeeded using Weight Watchers. The rest are fatter than ever.

It's the stupidity( maybe too harsh, but...)that amazes me. I had a conversation with a colleague trying to lose weight for his wedding, a long, in depth talk about the way he would need to really think about what he was eating, about the way that doing more exercise would be important. 2 hours later he was half way through a packet of biscuits, only 30 minutes before lunch. He was bigger on his wedding day than 2 months before, and is now bigger still.

Yes, but for many people they haven't a clue what they should be eating, because of all the bad information fed to us as LMP says.

Oh, they know alright, they just keep on with the cakes and the biscuits and the chocs, even when I stand up and take the stuff away someone will go and get it half an hour later because 'You can't have a coffee without biscuits!'.

Yes chubby, you can...

One last try

This link [url= http://www.dietandhealthtoday.com/diet-health-today-jan14/ ]Diet and Health[/url] takes you to a downloadable magazine-its free. If you read "a calories is not a calorie" and "Sams 5000 calorie experiment" you'll start to understand how it can be easier than you think ( if you ignore most of the government advice) and how eating better can mean that you don't even need to feel hungry to lose weight.

That's great - I highly doubt that you'll be able to keep up doing a food diary/'exercise prog' long term though.

Or you might be unlucky like I was with using My Fitness Pal, and end up losing the weight but having an eating disorder instead.

many people they haven't a clue what they should be eating, because of all the bad information fed to us

This. I'm a clever person, I've a degree in Chemistry but i find much of the information conflicting. Low fat vs wgaf about fat. Eat carbs vs carbs' impact on insulin responses and fat storage mechanisms. And with much of the info being fed to us by people with a vested interest, whether it's the food manufacturers or people with a diet book to sell. How the average time strapped person makes sense of it I don't know.

What i do know is that there are several different ways to skin this particular cat. Some seem to be better than others, some might actually not be beneficial at all. There's no one size fits all approach, it needs to suit the person. And whatever you choose, it needs to be a sustainable choice (so cabbage water is out I'm afraid, despite being brilliant at letting you drop a dress size in 7 days or whatever it says). And last but by no means least, just owning the book or having the knowledge of what to do is SFA use unless you actually do it.

and how eating better can mean that you don't even need to feel hungry to lose weight

If only there was some kind of 'satiety index' to guide us toward food that helps keep us feeling full for longer periods of time.

Oh, wait...

As a woman who does not enter into diet talk, doesn't care about calories, and will have a dessert if she wants one, I am something of a social pariah among women in my workplace who are always dieting, breaking the diet, or about to start a new diet. Putting butter on my toast seems like a political act, in this setting. They continually wonder why I am not overweight or the same size they are. They say it's not fair and I must have a fast metabolism or something

Do they also read 'heat' magazine and know exactly how many pounds a particular celebrity might have gained or lost in time for some beach holiday in st tropez before getting two divorces and having six babies?

Tell them you're on a "modified atkins", or the "three weeks to whatever" diet, or something.

Oh, they know alright, they just keep on with the cakes and the biscuits and the chocs, even when I stand up and take the stuff away someone will go and get it half an hour later because 'You can't have a coffee without biscuits!'.

Aye but the thing is, eating lots of cakes, biscuits and chocs (which everyone knows are bad) is made much more likely by eating lots of the stuff most people think is absolutely fine, like bread, potatoes, rice and pasta.

Oh, they know alright, they just keep on with the cakes and the biscuits and the chocs, even when I stand up and take the stuff away someone will go and get it half an hour later because 'You can't have a coffee without biscuits!'.

Yes chubby, you can...

How will this approach stop god-knows-how-many-millions firstly stop gaining and secondly losing weight? Y'know, only, it's not worked so far. We're getting fatter all the time. Should we just shout it a bit louder?

but virtually everything you read and personal experience suggests that 'being on a diet' and a 'program' isn't something you can keep up long term - you need to make lifestyle changes instead.

I also agree with crikey some days I feel hungry we need to get used to not satisfying it with a biscuit and some pop. I rarely have any snack food in my house, if i want to eat I have to actually cook something
if you cannot be bothered then I am not really that hungry - I would eat some biscuits if i had any though

Oh, they know alright

Sorry - who's [b]they[/b] in this sentence?

Do they also read 'heat' magazine and know exactly how many pounds a particular celebrity might have gained or lost in time for some beach holiday in st tropez before getting two divorces and having six babies?

Bang on.

I just say I don't diet. Social isolation be damned - I hang out with the guys and talk about sports instead.

if i want to eat I have to actually cook something
if you cannot be bothered then I am not really that hungry - I would eat some biscuits if i had any though

I agree, i can polish off a packet of hobnobs in half an hour, so i don't buy hobnobs. You can't eat what's not there. If i want a snack i have a yoghurt or a bit of fruit, if there were crisps and biscuits in the house i would eat those, but they are not so I don't. When people go to the shops does everything they have ever been told about healthy eating go out the window? I've never been to a class about healthy eating, it's just common sense (to me at least, full of sugar and fats, stays on the shelf.) Food is fuel, you wouldn't put dirty petrol and shite in your car, why do it to your body?

I agree but surely the diet and the programme are the lifestyle change. i am not sure how you change your behaviour without changing your behaviour

If you tell yourself you are 'on a diet' to me that seems by definition to be a thing that you are doing for a bit, but will then give up when you don't have to do it any more.

I guess you just get used to what you do and it stops being a diet/programme?

Hopefully yeah but it's just a subtle mindset thing for me that actually makes quite a difference.

I also agree with crikey some days I feel hungry we need to get used to not satisfying it with a biscuit and some pop.

I'm not arguing with that either, but you definitely get hungry a lot less by eating less sugar and refined carbs, IME.

I've never been to a class about healthy eating, it's just common sense (to me at least, full of sugar and fats, stays on the shelf.)

Nothing wrong with the fat, just the sugar. 😉

Sorry - who's they in this sentence?

Oh [b]you[/b] know.

You need to have your activity included in your daily life, or it has to be something you really really like. Otherwise you won't stick to it, it's that simple. I ride to work, and have the dogs to walk. Also, I live alone, so everything that happens in my home is happened by me.

Don't call it "exercise", instead for example, get a brochure on the Lea Valley Park and call it "going for a walk to see if we can see a Tufted Duck".

As for what to eat/not to eat. Well, how confusing! I just try to eat things as close to their natural state as possible. I've always eaten a high-fat diet, I like it (60kg @ 5'4", a state which I am completely happy with).

And hunger, hunger that has to be instantly satisfied. It doesn't kill you to be hungry (not what we call hungry in the West anyway).

I was in IKEA the other day. The woman behind me had a small girl with her, who became fractious at the wait. The woman offered the child a "snack" and explained to her companion that the child might be hungry. Rewarding bad behaviour and introducing bad eating habits.

We've got too much food here. It's everywhere. All refined fats and sugars and colourings. Lovely bright packets with slim happy people and funny-faced cartoon animals.

When people go to the shops does everything they have ever been told about healthy eating go out the window?

Isn't it obvious? Because they are hungry!

Hunger affects people's brains massively. We're not rational computing machines, we're driven by a soup of chemicals. So the presence or absence of some of those chemicals causes the other ones to do strange things, and our actual neural network is at the mercy of them all!

'They' are the people eating the cake, biscuits and chocolates.

It seems to be ok to say 'Ooooh, it's complex, Ooh, it's really hard not to eat sweet things, Ooh, you're not helping by telling us to eat less and move more, and you're calling us chubby', while the biscuits and the cake and the chocolate get eaten by people who would like to lose weight.

Personal responsibility will have to kick in, and as with smoking, drink driving, Class A drug use, a little social stigmatising might push people along a little...

Personal responsibility will have to kick in, and as with smoking, drink driving, Class A drug use

Along with all the taxes, legislation, criminalisation, etc.

'They' are the people eating the cake, biscuits and chocolates.

Ok so the advice to get a grip and stop stuffing yourself with pies and living in denial is aimed at those people who are in denial and stuffing themselves with pies. Ok. You need to be specific.

Personal responsibility will have to kick in, and as with smoking, drink driving, Class A drug use, a little social stigmatising might push people along a little...

Well since fat people have been stigmatised for decades, perhaps we should conclude that it doesn't work?

Well since fat people have been stigmatised for decades, perhaps we should conclude that it doesn't work?

Funny that the rise of fatties per capita coincides with us being more PC and not being allowed to stigmatise them any more. Essentially permission by inaction.

Don't be ridiculous. Fatties are pariahs as much as ever. Still just as many OMG celebrity cellulite stories in the rags.

Maybe if we're even nastier to fatties the world will be a better place 🙄

[b]Fatties[/b] are pariahs as much as ever.

Casual Fatism.

The worse kind of fatism.

are chip butties really bad?
I hope not, I may have to go for another ride.... 🙁

That's it!!! It's all the fault of the PC Brigade!! 😆

Funny that the rise of fatties per capita coincides with us being more PC and not being allowed to stigmatise them any more.

Yeah, this thread is really good evidence of the fact that you can't stigmatise them isn't it. 🙄

andyrm - Member
Funny that the rise of fatties per capita coincides with us being more PC and not being allowed to stigmatise them any more. Essentially permission by inaction.

well it also coincides with lots of things, mobile phone use, online shopping and the popularity of strictly come dancing

Don't forget the rise in piracy.

I blame gok wan........telling us fatties we look nice naked....the lying get.

I blame.... I blame, err. The rising of the tide !

That's it!!! It's all the fault of the PC Brigade!!

[i]Everything[/i] is the fault of the PC brigade.

That's it!!! It's all the fault of the PC Brigade!!

It is, though.

Time was when I could call someone a [b][Nope!-Mods][/b]

Everything is the fault of the PC brigade.

Tru dat.

Anyone seen any of the senior officers of this brigade? They're ruining our very way of life.

Anyone seen any of the senior officers of this brigade? They're ruining our very way of life.

Well there is you, Junky, project etc etc..... 😀

I don't remember ever being commissioned. Hmmm... 😕

I don't remember ever being commissioned. Hmmm...

I believe the usual method of enrolment is sedating, then branding on the [s]ample[/s] buttocks.

well it also coincides with lots of things, mobile phone use, online shopping and the popularity of strictly come dancing

By Jove, it's internet prons fault. No longer are young people getting exercise in by cycling along country lanes rummaging through hedgerows for discarded editions of 'Fiesta' and 'Razzle'

Sorry, been out doing more exercise.

So, knowing all we know, shall we come back again next year and have the exact same discussion, like we did the last time?

Presumably the people who have analysed the subject will be already on the way to their ideal weight, so can report back.

January 2014 ok for everyone?

January 2014 ok for everyone?

No, bit soon tbh.

That's what too little to eat does to me...

Go make yourself a nice cuppa sugary tea and have a [s]slice[/s] slab of cake.

That'll sort you out.

Soon enough you'll be able to say what they like about fatties. The moment that they become the majority in this country the PC rules no longer apply. Try calling someone skinny then! 😡

'They' are the people eating the cake, biscuits and chocolates.

I eat cake, biscuits and chocolates too when I feel like it. Yet I am not overweight. So do a lot of skinny/"normal size" people. It's not just "them" eating them.

It seems to be ok to say 'Ooooh, it's complex, Ooh, it's really hard not to eat sweet things, Ooh, you're not helping by telling us to eat less and move more, and you're calling us chubby', while the biscuits and the cake and the chocolate get eaten by people who would like to lose weight.

It is complex. It is quite hard not to eat sweet things at all, when we have a culture (like most cultures) where social activities frequently involve food. If you don't think social activities do revolve around food and drink, try being coeliac and not being able to join in most of them even if you wanted to.

Personal responsibility will have to kick in, and as with smoking, drink driving, Class A drug use, a little social stigmatising might push people along a little...

ROFL. Because personal responsibility, and "Just Say No" has worked so well with those things, hasn't it. Pushing abstinence from sex works so well with horny teenagers to avoid pregnancy. Social stigma worked really well to stop people being gay, getting pregnant outside wedlock, marrying someone of a different race....catch my drift? What do rebellious teenagers do when Mummy and Daddy say no? Go off behind their back and go do it of course and stick two fingers up.

So, I think that's that strategy debunked. Next.

Hollywood don't care.

[img] [/img]

Lots of people on here seem to have the answers, ball's in their court.

My take is that until people personally take responsibility, obesity will continue to grow. I see no sign that any clever insulin/leptin high/low gi science is helping to change things.

Unfortunately, we live in interesting times, post war rationing is only a couple of generations ago, the rise of the motor car newer still, and our relationship with food is screwed up. Only if people decide to change will we see anything alter. Of course this would need a certain amount of intelligence and self awareness, both of which are rarer than a queue at the salad bar...

I blame travelators in airports. I mean WTF is wrong with having to walk 500 yards?

I see no sign that any clever insulin/leptin high/low gi science is helping to change things.

Bit premature to say that when not that many people are taking heed of it. First thing on the NHS healthy eating tips page:

Base your meals on starchy foods

😕

if I have loads of vinegar on my fish n chips, the acid eliminates all the bad fats...........FACT!!

if I have loads of vinegar on my fish n chips, the acid eliminates all the bad fats...........FACT!!

[i]if I have loads of vinegar on my fish n chips, the acid eliminates all the bad fats...........FACT!! [/i]

I'm convinced. So much so that I'm going for a ruby, tonight, with chips !

[i]...so you still think fat is bad for you? [/i]

Only bad fats !
(please read the post)
😉

day off solo........ace 8)

Bit premature to say that when not that many people are taking heed of it. First thing on the NHS healthy eating tips page:

Which is, of course, the first port of call for anyone who thinks about eating?

Or maybe not.

People are not 'taking heed' of any dietary advice, because food and our approach to it is not something we learn from websites or public information campaigns. We learn from our parents and our peers, who in turn learn from their parents and peers.

Mrs C is involved in primary health and spends a long time trying to undo the idea that bouncing babies are healthy babies...

Crikey you seem to be of the opinion that EVERY fat person is blaming someone else.

Crikey you seem to be of the opinion that EVERY fat person is blaming someone else.

I'm sorry if it comes across like that, I don't mean to convey it that way, and I don't find it easy to discuss by text because the nuances of my conversation are lost and I sound like an insensitive knobber.

I think there is an important difference between not taking responsibility and blaming someone else. I think the current situation is the former.

I also think that the way people explain the complexity has to be done in a way that doesn't become the new excuse; an up to date version of 'It's me glands'.

It's clear that obesity is not recognised by the general public as a major threat to their health; echoes of smoking in young people...

I try to lead by example with the people I know; I explain that I'm not eating because I'm not hungry, I explain that it's okay to be hungry, I explain that I think exercise is at least as important as diet, I show people that they don't have to eat three big meals a day in order to be at work, I move the chocolates to avoid the constant snacking, I suggest that people don't need biscuits with every coffee, I make sensible choices from the canteen, I advise new starters that they will put on weight if they don't think about the combination of long hours, meal breaks and stressful situations.

I try bloody hard to be peoples conscience, because I see so many of them get fat then get miserable because they are fat.

...does it work? Does it ****! 😀

...no, it does work to some extent, I can influence people and I can guide them to a degree, but I get a fair amount of 'Oh, it's easy for you, because you ride a bike and you're always thin'...

Grrrrr! I put so much effort into being fit, and don't eat crap and everyone thinks its easy...

Good post crikey, and I understand and agree.

However my post was really meant to say that whilst many people don't take responsibility, many do and STILL fail. Many people have genuinely tried and failed to overcome their vices and habits of a lifetime. It can be really very difficult.

Rather than castigating those who have failed, which is what the "just ELMM fatso it's easy" message does, it's better to help people help themselves. Dietary advice will do this if it can be put across. So will intelligent legislation.

just ELMM fatso it's easy

It's curious how our two perceptions of ELMM differ. I've never thought of it as "easy" but I do think of it as "simple", in general at least.

I also automatically assume that the "eat less" bit also means "eat better"

Hey ho.

I think that's the crux; ELMM is a simple concept, but it requires a great deal of effort and probably discomfort/unpleasantness to be effective.

I can do it, but not because I'm special or hard or anything else, but because I know that in 3 months or so I will see the benefit and I don't like to be overweight.

My thoughts are based on the people I see who want more than anything to lose weight but fail at the first hurdle; 'Lets have a takeaway, we're on nights and it's a bit crap', followed by the next night...

I've been at work and seen 4 different takeaways ordered over 4 nights, all by people who really feel uncomfortable because they are overweight. I try to suggest that it's not the best thing to do, but I struggle to get it across.

Meh. I don't know the answer, but it has to be a personal thing in my opinion.

It's easy when you get going.. ie when you've changed your lifestyle to that of a normal healthy person. Just that initial hurdle can be hard. When you start to see results you won't want to stop. Shame that a lot of people never seem to get that far.

Another question. Eat better move more, and slow carb eating. I'd love to pretend I have time to cook everything from scratch but I don't. I've read relevant parts of the 4HB book, and I'm avoiding white foods, etc. But even sticking to other stuff, occasionally I'm enticed by prepared ingredients, like tonight I'm having a lentil and chickpea Dahl. It seems pretty low in sugars to me, 2.1g/100g vs a rda of i think 90g but is that right? What is considered low by slow carb standards?

Slow carb is not low carb.

Basically on iDiet you need to eat your fill of pulses and veg, so it sounds like you are bang on.

It's curious how our two perceptions of ELMM differ. I've never thought of it as "easy" but I do think of it as "simple", in general at least

Well ok, it's a simple concept, but what happens in your body is not. So many people who elmm either don't lose weight or feel like shit to varying degrees.

Idiet's not low carb though. It has lots of carbs coming from veg. So does 4hb. Both however recommend staying away from starchy and simple carbs, ie low sugars. Hence the q, what is considered low sugar by those standards?

not on topic but there is something about stw threads that once they get beyond 15 pages they start to get really good, even if it just about how to discuss stuff in a constructive manner. Wish we could press a button and just put the first 15 pages on. good stuff

[url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_post-exercise_oxygen_consumption ]epoc[/url]

Hope it helps.

Hence the q, what is considered low sugar by those standards?

It's low GI you need to be looking at (or possibly low GL). Which is usually related to low sugar. GI of less than about 55 I think is rated low.

Told them all to buy a bike or do something else that watching crap

Dieting is statistically more effective than exercise. Dieting plus exercise is not significantly better than dieting alone.

Vicki,I believe the major cause of obesity is excess calories. Not inactivity although it does contribute.

Dieting is statistically more effective than exercise

At what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_exercise#Health_effects

This is not about just losing weight, it's about living, and there is a big difference between living and just being alive.

It's low GI you need to be looking at (or possibly low GL). Which is usually related to low sugar.

I get that, but compounded foods like my lentil and chickpea Dahl don't have their GI / gl listed, and you can't work it out without knowing the full accurate recipe. But they do list both the carbs and the sugars, hence what is considered low sugar? 2g/100g seems pretty low, you have to eat a lot of Dahl to get to the 90g RDA published by various agencies - but as much as this thread has expounded, that RDA seems way in excess of what might be considered reasonable. What do the wise men on here think is a good RDA for sugars.

I don't want to be Mr negative, but I can't see lentil dahl fixing the issue...

It was tasty though.......

Slightly random http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/11000/largest-bread-consumption-per-capita

Followed by http://www.todayszaman.com/news-313719-turkish-obesity-rate-rises-to-172-percent.html

At what?

I seem to remember it was cardiovascular events, blood pressure and weight.

And some people really don't need to exercise to feel "alive" - I should imagine in certain circumstances being lazy can serve an evolutionary function eg conserving calories in an environment where food is scarce - which of course would not be useful anymore.

Interesting read [url= http://www.tunedbody.com/heart-surgeon-declares-really-causes-heart-illness/ ]What really causes heart disease[/url]

I watched some interesting progs last night. The interesting fact was something that i've heard/read at times (including on here) that it's impossible (ish) to out-train a bad diet. This is of course only really relating to weight loss. You can use exercise to maintain the weight loss once done, but essentially, without sorting out the diet, you won't lose the weight.

Recently, i've been working hard on both the size of my diet and the quality, i've been training hard, but only the same hard as i have in the past 2 years. However, it's only now, i'm starting to see the fruits of my labour again with weight loss. There's the ELMM logic (eat less move more), but for me it's more a case of EBMM (eat better move more) that's getting results. Gone are the snacks, gone are the Dominos, gone are most (not all) of the bad stuff, the end result is that the weight is coming off.

I'm never going to be a full on calorie count junkie, but i'm giving it a bit more thought and the results are beginning to happen.

OP, there isnt a sport for everyone immediately, often the major barrier to that is the weight they are carrying.

iDiet, 4HB and BFFM all helped my missus and i understand food and weight loss better. Its all about understanding what works for you. The real horror is how much 'other' food there is in an average supermarket. Even when Im just eating whatever i like, i reckon 3/4 of the shop is missed out.
You have the fruit, the sandwiches, the 'sausage rolls', the dairy, the biscuits, the crisps, the chocolates, the sweets, the soft drinks, the alcohol, the sauces, the ready meals, the bread.
Often from a section there is one good choice, and 20 poor options

and this is before i start on about how my steak was raised, how happy my turkey was, how organic my eggs are or how many miles the olives/nuts travelled to get here.