[Closed] This is pretty horrible

So is the alternative - Death by starvation. No easy answers, which is why the world is so ****ed up.

there's a no win solution to this other than them not being there. (which I don't necessarily agree with).

"IF", the detention was grounded, then there is only so far you should be expected to go in adhearing to religious dictate, when, they have after all surrendered their rights for criminal activity.

All detainees in the western world, even at Guantanamo, are under the duty care of the officers running it. That means that any ill health has to be explained. If the only way to prevent ill health is to ensure that sustenance is given, then the detainers would rightly believe they have the provenance to make sure it is administered.
Conversely, how it is administered is not always going to fit in with everyones' beliefs.

Lets take another scenario - MR and MRS Jahova's Witness did not give permission for the ill child to be given a blood transfusion on the ground of religious beliefs - guess who gets involved and tells them to off? - The authorities. I bet you wouldn't kick up a stink then..

So is the alternative -

release people who have not been charged with any crime, and held for 12 years?

Let them practice Ramadan as they wish?

Prisoners in losing certain rights shocker...

The vast majority of these people will have been picked up in situations which called for their detention in the first place. Unfortunately "training" for holy war is not seen as an excuse to legal jail people so they are held under dubious acts. You will always be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Allow people the freedom that we all enjoy, even if that means activities that "could" lead to adverse actions, or pre-empt that possibility and remove some of that right....

The vast majority of these people will have been picked up in situations which called for their detention in the first place.

What, like being framed by a financially motivated informer, before being tortured until you'll say anything to make them stop?

Or maybe just wearing a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_F91W ]watch[/url]

Oh dear, folk being shocked at stuff like this...do you really think this is the worst of what goes on? 🙄

Is it not shocking if you can think of something worse, then?

Wel, it does look distressing, but inserting a feeding tube is quite a routine procedure. I've had it done a couplemof times. It was uncomfortable but tolerable,,but in fairness, i wasn't struggling against it at the time. What is more shocking? Erm.. Waterboarding, electric shocks

So the main point of that video is....

Actor acts in film containing large amounts of acting.

The only shocking thing is that some people can't tell the truth from a fiction nicely filmed from multiple angles.

Oh, and my dad currently has a NG tube fitted and is being fed through it. The only difference between him and the detainees at Guantanamo is that he has had cancer, and they are part of a fascist, nihilistic cancer.

Some of them

and they are part of a fascist, nihilistic cancer.

The staff or the prisoners? Perhaps they both are, ever thought about that?

What, like being framed by a financially motivated informer, before being tortured until you'll say anything to make them stop?

**insert other nationalities

Ramadan hasn't started yet, this is a straight forward hunger strike.
These men should not have been held this long without trial. Try them or release them.

...found in the middle of Afghan with no reason to be there

Surely helping the Afghans to fight foreign invaders is a legitimate reason to be there ?

James Bond doing his bit :

[img] http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/blogs/movietalk/MSDLIDA-EC020-H-jpg_222123.jp g" target="_blank">http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/blogs/movietalk/MSDLIDA-EC020-H-jpg_222123.jp g"/> [/img]

I reckon James Bond's watch could land him in deep doo-doo

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/al-qaida-s-watch-of-choice-wearing-a-casio-enough-to-become-terror-suspect-a-758913.html

That's Peter O'Tool in a still from from David Lean's "Lawrence Of Arabia". The closest Lawrence got to Afghanistan was Kut in Iraq when he was sent to attempt to ransome thousands of Brit and Indian troops who were under seige by the Ottoman Turks.

It's Timothy Dalton in 'The Living Daylights'

Not really James Bond 🙂

Yeah, but that IS Omar Sharif on the right, isn't it?

Cougar sort this thread out pleeeeeeeze.

headfirst - Member

Ramadan hasn't started yet, this is a straight forward hunger strike.
These men should not have been held this long without trial. Try them or release them.

Yup. Ramadan is a non-issue here, jailing people for years without trial or any intent to try them is.

I agree, that was awful.

Ian Brady is also being force fed but that still doesn't make him a victim.

Maybe the actor in the video should have volunteered for a Jihadist beheading to better understand how that feels too.

There's alot of assumed guilt in this thread... wonder if that has anything to do with conditioning by the media?

You are more likely to be killed by the police or a bee sting than a terrorist, yet somehow thanks to aforementioned media coverage, terrorists are a constant perceived threat.

Yep, thats [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_week ]hate week[/url] and [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak ]newspeak[/url] covered and thanks to Snowden, we know Big Brother is for real... Orwell was on the money.

That's a poor piece of propaganda, however righteous the reason.

I insert NG tubes at work, and many, many people across the UK will have them inserted in hospitals over today and over this week. As a procedure it's a bit unpleasant, but not as bad as is being made out.

Yeah just gloss over the fact that Ian Brady received a fair trial and was convicted, and these people haven't.

Are people generally sedated whilst having it done in hospital?

Also, is it against their will?

Wonder how many Muslims have been killed by drones today...

The difference, enfht, to make it crystal clear, has been proven to be an evil sadistic bastard by a court of law and so is rightfully incarcerated. The guantanamo detainees are in jail, well worse actually, and have never been anywhere near a court.

Can you see the difference?

Haven't the majority of them also suffered torture deemed illegal under international law in order to coerce statements?

The difference, enfht, to make it crystal clear, has been proven to be an evil sadistic bastard by a court of law and so is rightfully incarcerated. The guantanamo detainees are in jail, well worse actually, and have never been anywhere near a court.

Have watched the emotive film - but this is the point. They have not had a trial and don't seem to have any hope of getting one in the near future.

If they are terrorists and assassins, let the evidence be heard ... then the US can legitimately hold them.

Or maybe they don't have a watertight case / confessions came from torture?

Are people generally sedated whilst having it done in hospital?

No, usually not.

Also, is it against their will?

No, it is something that is explained and a form of verbal consent is usually obtained.

jivehoneyjive they have been kept in conditions illegal under US law, never mind international law. That's why the US government has gone to so much trouble to keep them beyond the jurisdiction of US courts.

ernie_lynch - Member

Yeah just gloss over the fact that Ian Brady received a fair trial and was convicted, and these people haven't.

Pff, they're guilty, everyone knows that. They wouldn't be in prison otherwise would they?

Thank you Mr Lynch, finally something we can agree on 😀

These are the reasons I have such contempt for 'official' stories, especially in cases which further the polarizing of opinion and fuel the false perception of a terrorist threat in order to justify wars and weapons sales.

Point of order - both Suffragettes and IRA hunger strikers have been force fed in British prisons without being convicted of any crimes.

IRA hunger strikers weren't convicted of any crimes ? 😕

EDIT : They weren't forced fed btw. Which explains why Bobby Sands died.

They've already removed the chaff. The Guardian are somehow painting those who remain as innocent victims which is a pathetic joke.

Can I enquire as to your views on drone casualties enfht?

They've already removed the chaff. The Guardian are somehow painting those who remain as innocent victims which is a pathetic joke.

Genuinely interested to see some evidence or a link to back that up. I assume it's out there somewhere?

I have one of those watches. Should I be very, very worried?

The US don't believe they need to justify their reasons, not even to a big hitter like you MrDarcy. Take it up with them, wave a placard or maybe design a T-shirt or something.

I have one of those watches. Should I be very, very worried?

Definitely... you've already admitted you're guilty and no doubt there is extensive CCTV footage of you being all trendy retro n that.

Love them or hate them, drones are the future. Won't be long until US Law Enforcement are using drones to shoot their own citizens. Land of the Free etc. What's your point caller?

The US don't believe they need to justify their reasons, not even to a big hitter like you MrDarcy. Take it up with them, wave a placard or maybe design a T-shirt or something.

Ok, so because the US don't need to justify their reasons, that's evidence enough. So, I'll ask again, do you have anything to back up the earlier statement I quoted?

I thought it was pretty shocking, then 10 minutes later I saw Kate Quillion on Channel 4's Food Unwrapped show having a similar procedure - she obviously wasnt strapped down, but didn't flinch. Not saying it right or wrong, just that Kate is harder than Mos Def.

What's your point caller?

Looking to get a world perspective from a learned defender of peace and human rights such as your good self.

So, I'll ask again

😆

MrDarcy are you just bitter because you failed your Mod exam?

MrDarcy are you just bitter because you failed your Mod exam?

I'm not bitter about anything enfht. Can you back it up or not? It's an easy question...and if you can, I'll be delighted to read any links you can provide. If you could please refrain from insults in any future response, that might allow the thread to run for other posters involved.

They've already removed the chaff. The Guardian are somehow painting those who remain as innocent victims which is a pathetic joke.

It is a serious human rigths violation the likes of which the International community would accept from no other "authority" and it is shameful - even the supporters of the US doing this would be livid were it any other country never mind if it was done to US citizens.

What is it with folk being asked a perfectly reasonable question related to their view and they just simply not answering and then being sarccy and adding a hilarious smiley?

i dont know if this is meant to cover up the fact you cannot substantiate your view but it does not.

MrDarcy you have mistaken me for someone who feels compelled to justify their opinion to an anonymous chat forum. This thread was opened due to the Guardian posting a pathetic video, and I've aired my view that the "victims" still imprisoned aren't victims at all, and this inevitably gives you a hard on. Sorry can't help you out I'm afraid. Put the hand lotion back in the cupboard and put the telly on.

If you could please refrain from insults in any future ......

You've only yourself to blame DD, attempting to engage enfht in debate is particularly dumb. You know full well that enfht's input is generally restricted one or two sentences of sneering smartarse comments designed to insult. He doesn't do "debates". Even if he wanted to, I'm sure he lacks the intellectual capacity to do so.

😀 Love it.

Ernie you should wear a top hat when you type.

MrDarcy, on reflection, I should not have mentioned the Mod exam. I apologise for mentioning the Mod exam and I won't mention the Mod exam again.

If you **** with the USA you're going to have a bad time.
Pro Tip: Dont **** with the USA.

Under the Geneva convention they are classed as un-uniformed enemy combatants(spies or saboteurs). Under international law they can be executed immediately and without trail. Id have no problem with them simply lining them all up against a wall and being shot!

MrDarcy you have mistaken me for someone who feels compelled to justify their opinion to an anonymous chat forum. This thread was opened due to the Guardian posting a pathetic video, and I've aired my view that the "victims" still imprisoned aren't victims at all, and this inevitably gives you a hard on. Sorry can't help you out I'm afraid. Put the hand lotion back in the cupboard and put the telly on.

I thought just for once, I'd give you a chance to back up something you've said enfht. But it seems ernie's right and I only have myself to blame for trying to engage you. I often wonder what motivates the likes of you on Internet forums. Perhaps, as you've shown that you have nothing to back up your statement, you might enlighten us as to why you say the types of things you do instead?

I think this might be relevant:

enfht - Member

House in north London I lived in was built on railway sidings where they would unload dead soldiers, local lads from both world wars, always at night. Never felt weird living there though tbh.
Posted 1 week ago # Report-Post

I think it is important to point out that the detainees fall into two groups , those who have not been convicted of any crime , and those who have been shown to be innocent . Some human beings who have been abducted tortured and illegaly detained ( also apparently referred to as chaff ) have been released but many have not hence the hunger strike. When you battle with monsters you should take care lest you become a monster.

Good point Jivebunny. Drones do have a place in modern warfare.

I think it is important to point out that the detainees fall into two groups , those who have not been convicted of any crime , and those who have been shown to be innocent . Some human beings who have been abducted tortured and illegaly detained ( also apparently referred to as chaff ) have been released but many have not hence the hunger strike. When you battle with monsters you should take care lest you become a monster.

Don't you get it they were in a war zone participating in combat, without a uniform, that means that its perfectly ok to execute them immediately, torture them or whatever you want they have no rights at all. These people don't believe in human rights any way, a brutal death is no more than they deserve.

Don't you get it they were in a war zone participating in combat, without a uniform, that means that its perfectly ok to execute them immediately, torture them or whatever you want they have no rights at all. They people don't believe in human rights any way, a brutal death is no more than they deserve.

I take it you were disappointed that you didn't get a reaction from your earlier post so you went a bit nuclear with that one. Don't you get it that some of them weren't participating in combat? Or do you believe everything our friends in the US tell us?

If you * with the USA you're going to have a bad time.
Pro Tip: Dont * with the USA.

The last US helicopter to leave Vietnam ......... after the US had its arse thoroughly spanked by a poor third world country.

[img] [/img]

Since then they've made a point of picking on even weaker countries and cajoling lots of other countries to help them.

I take it you were disappointed that you didn't get a reaction from your earlier post so you went a bit nuclear with that one. Don't you get it that some of them weren't participating in combat? Or do you believe everything our friends in the US tell us?

I dont give a shit, if you think the USA are the bad guys you are very naive. Like i said shoot/hang/burn the lot of em i couldn't care less.

Except they were not which is why the us military have cleared them, but refuse to release them because they have no where to go . Which is why they are on hunger strike . Some may be guilty but no one has produced any admissible evidence some are innocent according to the us army but are still held and force fed .
Don't you get this is no us vs them but complex politics ?

What did I tell ya, that bloody bond is at it!!

[img] [/img]

The last US helicopter to leave Vietnam ......... after the US had its arse thoroughly spanked by a poor third world country.

yea vietnam is now a lovely country to live in, unless ur gay witch is illegal, or you like to blog or like to be critical of the government. Yea the americans were clearly the bad guys.

I dont give a shit, if you think the USA are the bad guys you are very naive.

Am I to infer that you think the US are the [i]good[/i] guys in all this? Or is it, as crankboy said, a little bit more complex than that? If you could bring yourself down from ranty hyperbole, and engage in a bit of debate, we can all enjoy this a bit more.

enfht - Member

Love them or hate them, drones are the future.

Ernie, you're just bitter because the CIA killed your idol Che.

Am I to infer that you think the US are the good guys in all this? Or is it, as crankboy said, a little bit more complex than that? If you could bring yourself down from ranty hyperbole, and engage in a bit of debate, we can all enjoy this a bit more.

tbh completely honest the idea of good and evil are debatable, its best to see international politics as competing bodies of power competing for limited resources.

enfht
..and you seem to be bitter because the education sytem failed you so badly

EDIT
but you shouldn't. Some people just can't be educated.

Yea the americans were clearly the bad guys.

Definitely not a time to bring up the genocide of native Americans and the subsequent whitewash of popular history then I guess.

Oh, by the way, Bradley Mannings Court Martial is ongoing:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Defense-presents-video-in-Manning-WikiLeaks-trial-4651817.php

Must be near trolling hour:

[img] [/img]

yea vietnam is now a lovely country to live in, unless ur gay witch is illegal, or you like to blog or like to be critical of the government. Yea the americans were clearly the bad guys.

I didn't think it had anything to do with who were the "good" guys and who were the "bad" guy.

In fact you made it very simple :

[i]If you * with the USA you're going to have a bad time.
Pro Tip: Dont * with the USA.[/i]

Morality doesn't seem to come into your argument.

Ernie, you're just bitter because the CIA killed your idol Che.

that lines made my evening 🙂 lol i often wonder why people have such love for a mass murdering failure.

tbh completely honest the idea of good and evil are debatable, its best to see international politics as competing bodies of power competing for limited resources.

Ok, so no more good guys and bad guys then. Are you aware that some of the Guantanamo detainees weren't involved in combat operations (which you claimed)?

I didn't think it had anything to do with who were the "good" guys and who were the "bad" guy.

In fact you made it very simple :

If you * with the USA you're going to have a bad time.
Pro Tip: Dont * with the USA.

Morality doesn't seem to come into your argument.

That because morality has no place in war. War has only one rule, kill or be killed.

Ok, so no more good guts and bad guys then. Are you aware that some of the Guantanamo detainees weren't involved in combat operations (which you claimed)?

I don't care if they were there selling ice creams.

lol i often wonder why people have such love for a mass murdering failure.

I can only assume you're talking about the US Government, yes?

This is great, has someone been out in the sun a bit too long?

I don't care if they were there selling ice creams.

Ok, so what you're saying is that you're not really concerned about facts then? You'll just keep straw-manning your way through the debate until you've pwned yourself inside out. At which point, I'm guessing you'll start over again?

I don't think that's why MrDarcy buys sun lotion.

By you logic 3dvgirl it is perfectly acceptable to kidnap and kill Americans as morality and culpability don't enter into the equation.