[Closed] This HIT stuff is all rubbish isn't it?

Lazy man's way of getting fit. You're not going to be an Olympic athlete, but considering the amount of actual 'training' folk do (as opposed to a casual walk or a steady ride) it'll bring ones fitness on in leaps and bounds.

Is it possible to combine HIIT with longer, steadier rides?

if you want to run a marathon it helps to run, want to ride the tour then riding lots would be helpful. Part of the point is getting the body used to the time doing something.

Fitness isn't one thing, particularly if you want to be competitive in any sport. Things like HIT if done properly will make you fitter in a general good health sort of way.

I think it has it place in training, especially when the weather is like this and you want to use rollers/ turbo trainer and it is better to do an intense 45 minutes than 2 hours on the turbo which can be really dull.

It is just a new way or trend really for doing lactate threshold work I guess. I used to leave long steady rides for the weekends and do some interval sessions in the evenings during the week when time with the family means i only get about an hour spare if i'm lucky, that mixed with some weigh training and core work has really helped over this winter (up to getting the manthrax this week!)

Is it possible to combine HIIT with longer, steadier rides?

you mean like, intervals?

Is it possible to combine HIIT with longer, steadier rides?

It's what I would consider to be a 'normal' training plan!

Isn't HIIT a bit more extreme than most people's intervals? Kinda 10 minutes in total including the recovery periods?

You can't entirely replace long rides with HIIT but you can mostly. You still need one longer ride a week, but you can still gain endurance with much less time committed.

And if you think it's for lazy people, you are not doing it right! You gave to really properly hurt yourself.

Works very very well for me. Faster now than ever I was doing the traditional stuff, and with less time spent. Anecdotally my endurance has been just fine over 2--3 hour rides despite having done about 3 a year, from nothing more than very irregular 45 min commutes done with selected hard efforts.

Also with noting that sprint intervals have transformed my endurance running far quicker than 10kms ever did. Very hard puke inducing sprints, mind. It only works if you really really batter yourself.

The whole thing originates from [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392 ]this study[/url]

It compares training on an exercise bike:

Group 1: Moderate steady state training (70% of VO2 max) for 60 mins 5 times a week

Group 2: 4 x a week of: 7-8 sets of 20 seconds max + 10 seconds rest intervals PLUS 1 x 60 min steady state session as above.

Both groups increased their V02 max but group 2 did slightly better for far less volume of training.

What followed on from this was endless articles/theories on HIIT. Yes it's good in it's place, eg if you have a time constraint, want to keep volume down, etc. It is however a limited study (as it should be to provide meaningful results) that throws up a few interesting points.

Also does Sir Bradley if Wiggens train for just 10mins a week and if not, why not?

If you want to reach Bradley Wiggins fitness level, then quit your job, get sponsorship and train multiple times 6 days a week.

Alternatively, find a more efficient way of training.

Not coming from a POV of knowing a lot about the specifics of HIT but interval training/speedwork/fartlek etc are well known principles for improving aren't they?

However, my understanding is that any good training plan for improving cardiovascular performance is a combination of 'long easy stuff' + 'push till you puke'

My experience using my commute as sprint work - from red light to red light - made me faster on my commute but didn't make as much of a difference to weekend club rides as, well, lots of weekend club rides... so a combination of endurance and speedwork needed to get faster over a long distance... A few high intensity sessions will only improve your high intensity fitness, not your base endurance

It also depends on your physiology, where you are starting from, your preference, your mentality when riding, and your goals.

As usual of course. For many weekend warriors needing a little extra oomph at the local trail centre I reckon it would be fantastic, and it will not cost you endurance but increase it.

If you just ride weekends and put in one good HOOT session mid week you would probably see a huge gain.

BadlyWiredDog - Member
Is it possible to combine HIIT with longer, steadier rides?

You would think someone might have used this by now in training 😉

In the interests of being open, this is my current training regime;

Monday/Wednesday/Friday (around 45 mins in the gym)

Warmup - intervals on exercise bike; 2 mins slow warmup, then intervals of 1 min like the clappers, 30 seconds rest...repeat until I've done about 10 mins, then slow cool down for a bit (total 10-12 mins on the bike).

2-5 mins dynamic stretching/warm up (with emphasis on upper body)

3 rounds of circuit training; 30 second intervals with 10 second rest x 10 (6.40mins total) (2 min rest between rounds)

Then 2-5 minutes stretching.

Each set of circuit training includes various exercises including power bag, kettlebells and body weight exercises, such as;

- Burpees with power bag shoulder press (I can find a youtube clip to explain if you like)
- dive bombers
- squats (with a power bag on my shoulder)
- lunges (with a power bag on my shoulder)
- jumping lunges with medicine ball twists
- medicine ball catches (lying on your back and throw a medicine ball into the air)
- crunches/sit ups (variations of to make it more challenging/interesting)
- various powerbag exercises (search online to find examples)
- various kettlebell exercises (search online to find examples

etc etc...these are just examples, if you want to find other exercises to incorporate search for metabolic workouts on youtube. A guy called funkMMA has some good examples..bit cheesy and I'm not sure if he's just a muscley equivelent of Mr Motivator, but his workouts are good.

I try to incorporate as many total body exercises as possible.

Once you're happy with 10x30 seconds (3 rounds), you could change to 10x1min (2 rounds).

An alternative to this is something called Hurricanes (look up Martin Rooney)....these are a bit more complicated, and include 20/30 seconds of going flat out on an exercise bike or treadmill in between HIIT anaerobic exercises.

I sometimes go for a 5km jog at the weeekend if I feel like it. My MTB is currently out of action so don't have access to that at the moment.

In the new year, I'm planning to go back to Muay Thai so will probably replace two of the circuits sessions with strength training but will use supersets to keep the intensity up.

If anyone has any suggestions on how I could improve of adjust that regime, I'm all [s]ears[/s] eyes.

I should point out that I'm not currently interested in endurance rides etc, so that probably influences my training.

If you're going to do a 100mile sportive, then you probably want to do long endurance training instead. But if it was me I'd include a couple of HIIT circuits sessions midweek.

FYI. I'm not claiming to be an expert or know better than people, I@m just sharing what I do.

McHamish: What's your goal?

Over the three or so weeks I was without a car, I did lots of 45 minute commutes. I did maybe two a week flat out, then maybe three or four sessions (depending on feel) hammering each climb as hard as possible then spinning the rest.

Big improvement in that three weeks.

Are we talking HIT on it's own and nothing else? That'll make 4th cat racing a far safer place 😐

Or are we talking intervals, or HIT to supplement 'regular' training?

Primarily to get fit, and to get rid of the extra flab.

I used to do a lot of martial arts (muay thai) and want to get back to that level of fitness. I'm planning to go back to muay thai in the new year but can't train as much as I used to as I don't get home to the wife until gone 21.30.

I'm going to the gym in my lunch break so be in the gym for longer than 45mins (around 1 hour including shower etc).

I used to be bothered about weight but I'm not interested in fighting anymore as I'm too old so it doesn't matter so much. Although I'd like to get lower than 90kgs if I'm honest.

I'm not into body building or anything like that so not interested in becoming a beef cake.

I have almost entirely replaced "normal" training with HIIT, due to time and family pressures. I think I am faster than I ever was doing the traditional stuff. It's counter intuitive, but well worth a try imo. I may not be as good over a 5 hour race but I don't care. I am only interested in short races.

I think it may be largely neurological adaptation though. Traditional instructions were to pace myself over 1 or 3 min intervals, which means holding back slightly rather than giving it everything. I feel far stronger now I am better trained to hurt myself properly.

Oh and in that 3 weeks I lost a hole on my belt easily.

McHamish: In that case it looks like a very decent workout. It's going to give you a good level of conditioning rather than purely adding strength/muscle but that's what you're aiming for.

Maybe a couple of points of interest:

Your circuits seem very lower body/posterior chain focused which is no bad thing but a bit of upper body work might fit in well. I'm thinking pull/chin ups, inverted rows, dips, press ups, to go along with your powerbag burpees/overhead presses. You mention various power bag/kettlebell exercises as a catch all below so this all might fall in to there.

Good stuff, I'm impressed!

molgrips: Like I said above, HIIT can be a very good option if one is time pressed. You're doing the right thing by putting in a true 100% max effort on your intervals. That's the trick/magic/bullshit/point of HIIT, the difference between 90% and 100% when you're going for it makes an important physiological difference. You're doing it the right way and seeing results from it. Amen to that.

Also for anyone looking to reduce bodyfat then diet is more important than training. You can't out train a bad diet.

I should probably add my training... My goal is sports specific (hockey) as well as to be strong and keep body fat down.

2 x 2 hour hockey training sessions and 1 or 2 matches per week. The training benefit from these are sport specific varied interval type work and of course the technical/skill element. During the season I normally get out on my MTB once every couple of weeks.

During the off season I play once a week during the evening and do 2 fitness sessions of about an hour each. One is more sprint/plyometric focused and the other hockey specific interval training. Typically out on the bike 1-2 times per week during the summer.

2 x weight training sessions per week. I currently use the [url= http://theswole.com/concept/531-jim-wendlers-theory-of-strength/ ]Wendler 5/3/1[/url] template and use an [url= http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator ]online workout calculator[/url].

Wendler 5/3/1 is based around progressing 4 key compound movements (squat, deadlift, press, bench press) with added assistance exercises for all round training. I put lots of pull ups, inverted rows, glute ham raises and dumbell work in here. Each session lasts <1 hour with a chunk of mobility work at the beginning.

So all in all 3-4ish interval/cardio/skill sessions and two weights sessions a week.

Brilliant thread.

I have been working on fitness / weight loss since the middle of the year and have been using HIIT due to time constraints during the week and then two longer MTB rides at the weekend with no weight training fri or sat.

However, I do a 10 min warm up on the turbo trainer with a two minute steady pace to start then alternating 60 secs hard, 60 secs steady. I then do a superset with weights such as flat bench press alternating with a barbell curl. 3 sets of each with 10 - 12 reps.

However, on advice, in between supersets I get back on the turbo trainer and do 5 mins alternating 60 secs steady, 60 secs hard. It usually works out that I have spent a total of 25 mins on the bike and 18 sets of three different exercises. Would it be more worthwhile doing one long HIIT session for 30 mins say?

I have noticed I am faster and stronger on the MTB at weekends but my weight is remaining steady (too heavy!) but I am bulking up, particualrly in the upper body.

Also, is anyone training while fasting? I see a lot of websites and magazines advocating this method for fat loss.

I know a few folk who have adopted the fasting diet and it's worked well for them, far better than improving there training.

Also, is anyone training while fasting? I see a lot of websites and magazines advocating this method for fat loss.

Is this training for looks though? Doesn't sound a good idea for our sport.

Shooterman: Fasted training? Can 'o worms right there! Personally I think it's only really of use as a cherry on top type of training to drop from 9% - 8% bodyfat kind of stuff. The downsides and limited effect negate the point for the vast majority. For me anyway.

However people are really getting into looking at when you should eat and patterns of eating. These generally involve either a fast or carb free start to the day. Worth looking at:

[url= http://www.leangains.com/ ]Intermittent Fasting[/url]
[url= http://www.carbbackloading.com/ ]Carb Back-Loading[/url]

For your superset have you considered doing inverted rows/pull ups instead of your curls? They are more of a compound exercise that involves more weight and muscles used and fits in well with bench presses as well as still working the biceps well. You can often do the inverted row on the bench and bar you use for bench presses, just have a switch around - feet on bench, you hanging from bar upside down.

MrOvershoot - Member
BadlyWiredDog - Member
Is it possible to combine HIIT with longer, steadier rides?
You would think someone might have used this by now in training

Surely they'd just cancel each other out...

I'm still amused that Moley, who used to post endlessly about how riding for decades at a pace only just faster than being in a coma was the answer to life, the universe and everything, now posts endlessly about how riding for 20 seconds a week until you puke is the answer to life, the universe and everything.

He's now fitter than he ever wasn't. All thanks to HIIT. Or something like that. Does HIIT also kill your brain cells?

Also, is anyone training while fasting?

I've been training without insulin. This means not eating for several hours before a session and not for the first 45 minutes of that session. It means your body will be burning fat mostly, and when you start taking on carbs after 45 mins you'll probably only end up taking a little.

Makes a big difference for me in training and weight.

And remember, fat loss = performance in our sport. As in, lose 5kg you'll get faster even if you're no fitter.

Except that the liver stores around 200g of glycogen and the muscles 400g.....

Edit: And then when you do eventually run out of glycogen after a few hours one of the sources of energy will be the muscle itself - which is why it's not great for training for performance.

It does, yes.

Insulin inhibits lipolysis. So if you eat fast carbs, your pancreas has to produce lots of insulin, this makes your muscles use blood glycogen instead of fat. Go riding, and your muscles suddenly use a lot of blood glycogen cos the insulin is still in your blood, then your blood glycogen goes low and you feel crappy, so you eat/drink more carbs and so it goes on.

You will use glycogen stores if you exercise without having eaten carbs beforehand, but not as much.

Try it - you may be able to go far harder for longer without bonking and with taking less carbs. You may not notice a difference of course, depends on your physiology 🙂

I'm still amused that Moley, who used to post endlessly about how riding for decades at a pace only just faster than being in a coma was the answer to life, the universe and everything, now posts endlessly about how riding for 20 seconds a week until you puke is the answer to life, the universe and everything.

Hardly.

I was using the traditional approach, which does work, then I found a new approach that works better. I just share what I know. Is that so bad? Should I stick to my guns regardless of what I've learned?

Does HIIT also kill your brain cells?

See above.

I was using the traditional approach, which does work, then I found a new approach that works better. I just share what I know. Is that so bad? Should I stick to my guns regardless of what I've learned?

What makes it amusing isn't that you've changed your mind, but that you're so flippin' adamant that you're always right, that when you do switch and are again, totally adamant that you're right, it's just funny. Well it amuses me anyway.

I take the view that I'm rarely right about anything, let alone completely right and I allow for the possibility that the world is painted in shades of grey rather than black or white and that often there is no 'right' answer, just a selection of competing solutions. But I may be wrong on that...

Right just back from the gym, had to do a short one today as the gym was shutting at 2pm.

Did 40 minutes in total...still knackered though.

I take the view that I'm rarely right about anything, let alone completely right and I allow for the possibility that the world is painted in shades of grey rather than black or white and that often there is no 'right' answer, just a selection of competing solutions. But I may be wrong on that...

I guess that gives Molgrips a suitable excuse to ignore your comment about him changing his mind...you're rarely right about anything anyway!

Who said anything about fast carbs? Live on brocolli and your liver will store it as glycogen. You will then use it when you exercise, even if you don't eat overnight.

You are restricting calories and exercising so you are definitely going to lose body fat. I'm just not sure I'd want to be left with the weak and stressed body that's underneath. Each to their own though!

It's all a load of B*****s anyway.

From my facebook page, a message to our race team coach.

Can I have chips after training Saturday?

What makes it amusing isn't that you've changed your mind, but that you're so flippin' adamant that you're always right

Well if you read carefully, I usually say 'as I understand it' or 'the theory goes' and similar things. If I don't, then I should, so please pick me up on it.

Sometimes I am quite sure of something, but then I learn something else that may have a more important effect. That doesn't mean the first thing is wrong.

Just saw this:

You can't out train a bad diet

Some people can.

Incorrect, no matter how much exercise you do you can still gain body fat with a poor diet.

This guy runs 10 marathons in 10 days and still has a gut. You can't out-train a bad diet. Pasta and energy gel belly.

[img] [/img]

edited.

didn't even get off the first page

Incorrect, no matter how much exercise you do you can still gain body fat with a poor diet

SOME PEOPLE will still gain fat with poor diet.

SOME PEOPLE stay stick thin despite eating junk and doing nothing.

How we respond to diet and exercise varies greatly.

Pasta and energy gel belly.

And he heel strikes 😉

And he heel strikes

LOL, good spot

Molgrips or others claiming the benefits of any training regime...care to share your weekly training hours and performance figures?

My training is very inconsistent, so no.

Just because I can't stick to a programme, doesn't mean the principles are no good.

Well, sometimes it does 🙂

Thanks to those who took the time to reply to my questions.

I can see that its a good way to boost fitness in the run-up to an event but I doubt whether doing it all year round will be better than periodised training.

Molgrips or others claiming the benefits of any training regime...care to share your weekly training hours and performance figures?

Sod off with your requests for proof. Anecdotal evidence is more than enough.

I'd give it if I had it! Nothing to hide here. Just experiences offered. I wish I had the resources to conduct a complete study but sadly I don't.

Jesus Christ this day and age and we are debating this bs. 3 things work consistent exercise, sufficient (minimum) food and peds.

if you exercise, you are not fat because of what you eat. your natural growth hormone and insulin production decide how much fat you hold. your performance depends on having ENOUGH calories and natural testosterone production to have muscular hypertrophy after the training stimulus.

you can be -10% body fat and muscular if your genetics allow you to be. bodybuilders have known this for years.

Molgrips, from the sound of it, you're actually doing much harder 45min sessions as opposed to lower level much longer sessions, not what I understand as HIT with all this train better in 5 mins a week type thing?

Jesus Christ this day and age and we are debating this bs

No, we're waffling without being properly informed 🙂

The reason the rides were 45 mins is that's how far away work was 🙂 I mixed it up with 45 min flat out intervals (non HIIT) and a gentle ride with 4 or 5 110% efforts on the short hills. Not HIIT either really but seems to have a similar effect. It certainly seems to be good for neurological adaptation.

Now you're getting silly. 110% efforts that changed the wiring of your brain?

Ok so 100% efforts would be more accurate. But yes, changing the wiring of your muscles and nerves and possibly your brain. Read up on neurologicalaspectsadaptation of training, also muscle memory.

OK, but I doubt many of us here know much about 100% effort. 'Trying very hard' maybe. If you're going for the science angle you can't really mix it with the football coach angle.

I'd define 100% effort as matching or exceeding your HR max, if you've not topped out or bettered it, then it wasn't 100%.

The football coach angle is valid. Do you know what your max effort is for 1 minute? You can't work at max HR for long, so if you go flat out for 23 mins in a time trial is that not 100%?

The point about the neurological training is that what feels like 100% now isn't really 100% of what your muscles are actually capable of. By going balls out/max effort/110%/whatever subjective language you choose, you are training your brain and muscles to give more of the strength they have AS WELL as making them stronger.

It was on that Horizon programme about HIIT actually too.

Ah ok, that's what I class as interval training and its how I train mostly.

And I think we know what someone means by 110%. Yes it can be slightly irritating but unless you never say anything ever that is grammatically incorrect, better to let it pass no?

Edit: cross post with molgrips there

You'd rarely achieve that on a commute in my view. And I doubt you'd be doing reps of that intensity...

Ok, forgive the pedantry but we're in danger of having a grown up discussion, so it's worth trying to be accurate?

Do you know what your max effort is for 1 minute?

If you train with a power meter, you have all this data on tap after every training session. Used to be about 500 Watts for 1 min, but could only maintain 320ish for a 10k TT (I only ever did one, hence the ish bit).

On the Max intensity thing, I only ever managed that when competing in a local Chain Gang, as I used to regularly top my max HR week on week trying to stay with the faster boys (e.g. ac282). I remember one summer, my max HR went up by about 1 bpm each week to about 207. Still never managed to hang on over the hills mind....

You'd rarely achieve that on a commute in my view.

Well it's a commute and training session combined. And I don't see any reason why I could not achieve max effort on some hills or open sections. That's kind of the point - training myself to actually work that hard on demand.

Is there anyone that's just doing this High Intensity stuff

And actual HIIT rather than speed/interval work

I bet you're still only an 7 or 8 on an RPE perceived effort scale moley. No disrespect. I know I'd be under a bus if I tried for a 9 or 10. I don't train anything like as hard as the people I know that are better than me (I wonder if there's a connection there?!) but when I nail it, I'm good for nothing after.

Have you seen Lord Hoy falling off his trainer? That's getting towards a 10 🙂

Have you seen Lord Hoy falling off his trainer? That's getting towards a 10

+1, pushing myself to what I perceive to be 9+ effort I can't do anything afterwards let alone carry on riding.

I can't imagine pushing at 100% for a whole TT would be even possible. IIRC Chris Boardman used to barely push the pedals when starting a TT. I'd only want to approach a 100% PPE in sight of the line.

I bet you're still only an 7 or 8 on an RPE perceived effort scale moley.

Well no, cos RPE is [i]perceived[/i] exertion innit.

How hard you end up going is a combination of factors, as above. If your nerves aren't capable of activating your muscle fibres fully, then your brain will ask for everything and you'll get less than your muscles are capable of. In that case you'll probably recover fairly quickly, especially if your endurance is good generally.

This is why I am training like this, because I've realised that over the years I have got used to not really pushing properly hard.

I can't imagine pushing at 100% for a whole TT would be even possible

Obviously. Utterly max flat out power is only possible for a few seconds. 100% for a time trial is far less than 100% for a 10 second effort. Again that's why it's called perceived exertion.

As for Hoy falling off his trainer - he's obvioulsy all about the sprint, so he's very good at summoning all the strength his muscles are capable of, with the resulting large amount of lactic acid and general pain. I've been trying to get to that point, and I've improved a lot. I doubt Wiggins or Froome do that very often, because doing it in a tour would be a bad idea. You'd need to keep plenty in reserve.

Last time I did hill reps on foot I felt like puking and had to have a sit down in between reps. This is good for me - learning to punish myself properly.

I still think you're playing fast and loose with the terminology and conflating different things. But if you've found something that works, great.

I still think you're playing fast and loose with the terminology and conflating different things

In what sense? I know I'm not doing HIIT as planned by the coaches, but the focus is still on high intensity.

looking into this too much eat sleep train boom.

What's the point of arguing about the benefits of HIIT? There are people who know a lot more than me about sports science who have already proved its benefits.

I don't have a lot of time to train so it suits me.

If you're interested in competing in endurance events, then you'd better put the miles in. But there are some people who think that incorporating some HIIT sessions into your training would be of benefit.

I've posted a detailed description of my training, I'll let you know how I get on 3 months in.

OK, so not exactly HIT but when I joined Strava in the summer and tried to get decent placings and KOM's on my local trails, I (and others) noticed my weight drop, fitness increase and speed go up.

If you're interested in competing in endurance events, then you'd better put the miles in

Well, more miles is not necessarily better. You need far fewer long rides than most people think, it seems.

Well, more miles is not necessarily better. You need far fewer long rides than most people think, it seems.

I have a feeling that most people actually need more longer rides than they think. The difficulty I think happens with a lot of this research is when transposed onto punters like me, is that we vastly underestimate the actual volume of training proper athletes do, so assuming (and it's a disputable assumption) someone has worked out that an elite level runner or rider needs a lot less base mileage than previously thought, that reduced number is still many times bigger than what an average punter does. But yes if say you've only got time for 2 hours exercise a week it stands to reason it's more effective to do it at a higher intensity than a low one.

is that we vastly underestimate the actual volume of training proper athletes do

Well I don't think so - we know pro athletes do loads of miles, but the question is when you don't have that much time which bits do you cut?

I know a bloke who, in training for his 90 mile annual sportive, did tens of thousands a miles a year. He was slow as hell, slower than me (over a 3 hour ride) coming off the back of about three months of inactivity.

A certain coach who shall not be named but used to post on here said (on here) that he gave TdF riders one long ride a week.

once a good base level of fitness has reached all that's required is one long endurance session per week. The rest of the time is far better off spent doing speed and interval work. There's just no need to keep piling endless miles in. The body remembers endurance for far longer than it remembers speed. Doing intervals will build speed, fast recovery and will also help maintain that speed for longer.

I know a bloke who, in training for his 90 mile annual sportive, did tens of thousands a miles a year. He was slow as hell, slower than me (over a 3 hour ride)

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you. Tens of thousands > 20,000 miles a year. No one does >385 miles a week to train for a 90 mile sportif.

I used to aim for 250 miles a week when base training over winter. 1/3 of which would be on a turbo in the evenings during the week. I'd try and do two 80-100 mile rides on Sat and Sun. I couldn't fit any more in, 16 hours training a week plus full time job.

For the '100% effort' conversation earlier - look up "Monod and Scherrer's critical power models" as a starting point.

Training 'volume' and training 'specificity' are both important to enhance 'performance'. The latter is more important than the former, in my experience.

Tens of thousands > 20,000 miles a year. No one does >385 miles a week to train for a 90 mile sportif

When I was there in June he'd done 7,000 miles that year, despite living somewhere covered in snow til March. He'd done a 6 hour turbo trainer ride.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17177251