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The problem is when it’s still awful for paid up members. Who subsequently cancel their membership. Which is what i did.
Same here.
Do any of these forums incorporate a magazine subscription, an online magazine, classifieds and various articles on their subjects. Do they have the same amount of traffic each day?
They all have classifieds / for sale & wanted ads. (Very active on YBW)
MHF, especially has extensive articles & an on-line magazine that are only available to subscribers.
YBW is associated with a series of print magazines (Practical Goat BonerBoat Owner, Yachting Monthly, Classic Boat, Yachting World, etc..) and has articles on its website, separate from the forums.
My impression is that they all get more posts per day than here - certainly on a par.
I thoght that there might be a site somewhere that had these sort of stats, but haven't found one as yet.
My impression is that they all get more posts per day than here – certainly on a par.
Are you sure as they seem to be that they only get a few per day?
Well whatever got tweaked last night seemed to do the trick, for me at least, not a single crash today. It was pinch to zoom that was particularly problematic, instant crash before, doesn’t do that for me anymore.
Fingers crossed it's an improvement. Tomorrow at 5pm I'll see the revenue impact. Hopefully it's not anything significant.
Are you sure as they seem to be that they only get a few per day?
Just done a manual count since midday yesterday:
YBW 110 updated threads (may be multiple posts per update)
MW 80 updated threads (may be multiple posts per update)
MHF 110 updated threads (may be multiple posts per update)
STW 126 updated threads (may be multiple posts per update)
STW is busier than I thought, but not dramatically so. Certainly in the same leage as some of the other forums.
STW is busier than I thought, but not dramatically so. Certainly in the same leage as some of the other forums.
You are aware it’s not just about post counts and more about unique visits?
Or alternatively, reveal to them the magical solution to the issues they’re always having.
So if we all subscribed what then?
Oh, wait, no forum. Because adverts are life apparently (not being sarcy). Your argument doesn't stand up, even before you account for ex-subscribers and their reasoning.
I’ve just noticed that they both use the same Xenforo software – starts at $160.
I've nominated that in the past and got shot down for it. I can see why it's unattractive, the site is a proverbial birds nest that would require a lot of untangling and just gets kicked down the road.
Skyscrapercity is probably the biggest forum going but doesn't have intrusive ads, no idea what their unique visit count is like though, I bet it dwarfs this place.
@drac most of them do offer image hosting though, rather than freeloading off someone else's servers 😉
@mark any chance of the floating google banner at the bottom either disappearing or becoming much easier to remove once you've seen it? That's my biggest beef and takes up a huge amount of screen space once you take an address bar and on screen keyboard into account.
That's the biggest earning ad spot on the site. I could remove it but then I'd be making several people redundant as a result - it genuinely does earn that kind of money.
Drac
My impression is that they all get more posts per day than here – certainly on a par.
Are you sure as they seem to be that they only get a few per day?
Drac
You are aware it’s not just about post counts and more about unique visits?
Just addresing your original question...
If I were STW, I would archive the whole of this forum in a publicly accessible form and start from scratch on a proper foundation. We'd get a fully functionng forum (with a 'like' button 🙂 * ) in 6 months, rather than what looks to be an open-ended 2 year programme of fashioning a silk purse from a piece of pig. YMMV.
*Edit: And media hosting 😀
Skyscrapercity.com is smaller than us in traffic.
That’s the biggest earning ad spot on the site. I could remove it but then I’d be making several people redundant as a result – it genuinely does earn that kind of money.
Hmm, not ideal.
Is there anything that can be done to allow it to close once it's served it's ad? Even just until the next reload would be fine!
Skyscrapercity.com is smaller than us in traffic.
It's really not. There's a reason it's on the XKCD map of the internet and STW isn't.
singletrackworld.com
Global Rank
#37,926922
Country Rank
#2,10387
United Kingdom
Category Rank
#2Sports > Cycling and Biking
(In United Kingdom)Total Visits
1.7M
Bounce Rate
68.01%
Pages per Visit
2.57
Avg Visit Duration
00:02:59
https://www.similarweb.com/website/singletrackworld.com/#overview
skyscrapercity.com
Global Rank
#4,966290
Country Rank
#44141
Poland
Category Rank
#1Heavy Industry and Engineering > Architecture
(In Poland)Total Visits
8.9M
Bounce Rate
23.47%
Pages per Visit
8.69
Avg Visit Duration
00:10:57
https://www.similarweb.com/website/skyscrapercity.com/#overview
Thats' not in my power. Ads are delivered by a 3rd party (Ezoic) and the software is theirs. I can control certain behaviours but like the majority of big publishers, ad tech is contracted outside the business.
also..
YBW is almost identical except for being nothing like identical.
I'm the OP - I bought a £200 iphone11max off a work colleague this morning so slap all the ads back on now I have more phoneage and I'll club a baby robin to death with my obsolete Iphone7 before throwing it in the sea.
Wanders off to see if STW is any better
Mark - informal feedback is that I have at least been able to use my iphone on here this morning without it crashing.
I've always found an iphone a great way to view this forum as its relatively ad free. I've never understood ads here on the likes of YouTube.
Youtube is wait for the skip button to appear and click asap, completely ignoring the ad.
Occasionally I will click on an add link here though as I understand it does give extra revenue to STW, or is that not true and you just make money for having ads plastered everywhere ?
You are aware it’s not just about post counts and more about unique visits?
One would assume that the former is representative of the latter. It would raise more questions than it answered if it wasn't.
So if we all subscribed what then?
Oh, wait, no forum. Because adverts are life apparently (not being sarcy).
Mark told me, to my face, that with sufficient subscription revenue he would turn off third-party advertising completely and that nothing would give him greater pleasure because it's a pain in the bollocks.
You may not be being sarcy, but unless you want to argue that Mark was lying to me then you are being wrong.
If I were STW, I would archive the whole of this forum in a publicly accessible form and start from scratch on a proper foundation. We’d get a fully functionng forum (with a ‘like’ button 🙂 * ) in 6 months,
Which would be great except the bailiffs would have moved in after three.
Why not do it yourself if it's that easy? Go spin up Doubletrackworld, see how far your fully functioning forum goes. I'll check back with you in September.
Let's not get on each others cases here. I want to make the forum better and for a start I DO acknowledge the shortcomings of the forum. However, there are many forces acting on the actions we can take, primarily one of financial impact and the risks that brings with it. behind the scenes we have lots of plans to make things better and they are actually progressing. I know it's frustrating but this site is bigger than the vast majority of users realise and it is far more complex than simply choosing a bit of software.
There are sadly no easy switches for me to throw to make the forum work how everyone would like. However, there is a journey towards that goal and all I can do right now is reassure you that we are on that journey. Hopefully it will glean good enough results soon enough to satisfy everyone, including the bank manager 🙂
Why not do it yourself if it’s that easy? Go spin up Doubletrackworld, see how far your fully functioning forum goes.
You’re missing the point (possibly on purpose)…
My point was, that in my view, *STW’s* efforts would be better targeted in that direction.
Edit: Crossed with Marks post.
Thank you Mark #thumbs-up
My point was, that in my view,
I'm not missing your point of view. I once thought the same. Rather I'm trying to highlight (in a perhaps misguided attempt at an irreverent fashion) that your point of view is well-meaning but incorrect.
With all due respect, the point of view of someone who's been running this endeavour for a couple of decades is more valid than, well, anyone else's, yours and mine both. Mark is painfully aware of what is required to keep operational so what you, or I, think we would do in his shoes is neither here nor there. I probably know more about the inner workings of the site than most posters and I wouldn't be able to even begin to posit what they should be doing instead. If I were in charge STW likely would be amazing, for about a week before I had to switch everything off and sell the office.
Let's not forget this forum has a fair few issues besides the insane* ad burden too (random logouts, recurrent cookie banners, failed posts that need retyping).
I'm a member of several other forums (and a moderator on a far more niche bike one), and none of the others have a culture where hordes of subscribers fetishise their paid member status and lord it over the peons. None of the others have quite such intrusive ads. I doubt I'd get called "a boil on the arse of this site" on any of them, either.
I get that all sites are different, and there are commercial implications of everything that I'm not aware of. But STW definitely has a problem* with overly intrusive ads that crash peoples' devices and/or use too much of their machine's resources.
*IMHO
Mark told me, to my face, that with sufficient subscription revenue he would turn off third-party advertising completely and that nothing would give him greater pleasure because it’s a pain in the bollocks.
You may not be being sarcy, but unless you want to argue that Mark was lying to me then you are being wrong.
Not at all but that was exactly the point nickc argued:
I think Mark has repeatedly said that it would take something like 8000-10000 subs to keep the site ad free.
Which, being the case, it wouldn't matter how many subscribed as it would never be enough and in fact only get worse as ad revenue drops with more subs until you hit your magic break even point.
@mark, dunno if it got lost in the noise but is there any way of killing that banner once it has served it's purpose on that impression? (ie. it can load, do its thing then you can get rid of it to see more than a single line of text whilst replying to something) Just wondering if there is an advanced reply box locked away as an option that takes you to a new screen that would be ad free. Just a thought.
It’s here @squirrelking
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-forum-is-completely-unusable-on-iphone7/page/3/#post-12298827
Just wondering if there is an advanced reply box locked away as an option that takes you to a new screen that would be ad free. Just a thought.
Well there is one 😉
You're going to have to be specific unless this is some obtuse "just subscribe" joke.
I'm trying to offer a useful suggestion that keeps everyone happy.
I’m a member of several other forums (and a moderator on a far more niche bike one), and none of the others have a culture where hordes of subscribers fetishise their paid member status and lord it over the peons. None of the others have quite such intrusive ads. I doubt I’d get called “a boil on the arse of this site” on any of them, either.
Who fetishises their paid member status, other than occasionally as on this thread, then? I pointed out that I decided to become a member solely because I wasn’t getting any advertising, and I felt I should be contributing to the support of the site as a result, having been here since around 2003, when I actually bought the magazine.
I get that all sites are different, and there are commercial implications of everything that I’m not aware of. But STW definitely has a problem* with overly intrusive ads that crash peoples’ devices and/or use too much of their machine’s resources.
I also pointed out how I’ve been managing to use the site on iOS for a significant number of years without any issues regarding slow loading, crashes, intrusive ads, etc.
Which then brings me back to feeling honour-bound to contribute just because I’m not seeing the adverts, which I wouldn’t be clicking on anyway.*
*I have to add, going back six years, before I realised that there were other browsers and search engines, actually they may have not even existed back then, an advert did pop up in response to searches I’d been doing for driving jobs. I did respond to that one advert, which resulted in my working for British Car Auctions as an agency driver for two years, and as a result of that, having my current job working for Cazoo.
So, ads can be advantageous, however most of the time I find them horribly annoying and intrusive, and not just here, Flipboard can be even more unusable because of ads that cover most of the text of an article, and are impossible to remove.
Am I the only one who the site works fine for? Fair enough a few months ago there was briefly some issues but I regularly browse here on both a Pixel 5 and an iPhone 8 and it works fine on both.
Site works fine for me as well. I'm on an 8 year old basic laptop running chrome and a 3 year old basic android phone running chrome. It's fine. I've not been logged out for ages, it's not crashed in months, it just works.
The only thing that puts me off these days is the usual suspects ruining so many threads with pointless bickering and personal insults but that's hardly STW's fault.
Let’s not forget this forum has a fair few issues
No-one disputes this. Not least Mark on this very thread.
I doubt I’d get called “a boil on the arse of this site” on any of them, either.
Are any of those forums commercial sites where as a user you're going out of your way not just to avoid contributing but to deliberately block one of their revenue streams and encourage others to do likewise? If so, you're a boil on their arses an' all.
Would any of those forums allow this sort of critical discussion?
it wouldn’t matter how many subscribed as it would never be enough
Not sure as I follow that logic?
1.3 m unique visitors. I find that quite remarkable.
I find it even more remarkable that I can go to bed at 11pm and see less than 100 new posts by 7am.
How are the unique visitors measured?
Am I the only one who the site works fine for?
The last few weeks I've had no issues on W10 Firefox and Android on a Moto G5. I get logged out now and then and there's the pop-up box to fill in now and then but no more than minor irritations. The phone is much better than it was, for years it was too irritating to use but recently the ads/pop-ups have been bearable. (edit: I've just checked the phone and there's just one ad at the bottom which takes about a sixth of the screen and no pop-ups)
1.3 m unique visitors. I find that quite remarkable.
That being the case, it's gone down since I saw it.
I find it even more remarkable that I can go to bed at 11pm and see less than 100 new posts by 7am.
What do you suppose most everyone else in the UK is doing at that time?
How are the unique visitors measured?
Google Analytics.
What do you suppose most everyone else in the UK is doing at that time?
If you're taking 1.3m as accurate, you'd assume a fair few are non-UK based too...
It just seems to me like a very low post to visit ratio on this place.
Thanks Mark - big improvement now.
Everyone else carry on bickering
Not sure as I follow that logic?
@cougar Actually I just thought it through and I'm not sure I follow it either, it's utterly crap logic. Stupid yesterday squirrel... 🤣
Google Analytics
Hmmm, can Google Analytics filter out bots?
(Genuinely no idea how Analytics works!)
BTW:forum software has been fine for me for the last couple of months, using my 3 yr old Samsung phone. I haven't even been logged out 👍
If so, you’re a boil on their arses an’ all.
Nice. The other way of looking at this is less about aversion to ads that are relevant, just as in the magazine, but very suspicious, if not illegal use of "consent", to install trackers on people's devices used to browse not just STW but the entire Web. To be clear too, Recital 32 of the UK GDPR specifically bans pre-ticked boxes.
I understand that it's tough being a publisher, and that once one has gone down the dubious adtech route it's hard to get out if it, but that does not make people wrong to not want adtech installed in their devices, especially given that the entire premise is to surveille and track behaviour. Obvs a bigger problem than STW, but it's worth keeping in mind that the problem is not advertising or marketing, but privacy-invasive means.
"the problem" you describe here is to the best of my memory the first time anyone's mentioned it. It's a wholly different issue from what most folk are complaining about.
You're right about the pre-ticked boxes though. I spotted this a couple of weeks ago (it was the first time I'd seen that particular incarnation of the consent box). I meant to mention it to Mark but couldn't be buggered.
If you’re taking 1.3m as accurate, you’d assume a fair few are non-UK based too…
It just seems to me like a very low post to visit ratio on this place.
Dunno TBH. We do have overseas members but the vast, vast majority are UK-based. You'd have to ask Mark if you wanted figures.
The "99-9-1 rule" is well documented. How much that represents STW I don't know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule
Hmmm, can Google Analytics filter out bots?
I have a vague memory that it can filter out spiders (such as, y'know, Google) but it's a fair old while since I last looked at it. Again, that'd be a question for Mark.
The “99-9-1 rule” is well documented. How much that represents STW I don’t know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule
/blockquote>Interesting. I think what you're saying is that anyone who posts content/replies is contributing quite meaningfully. Without them there is no forum, no revenue stream.
So is it the other 90-99% of visitors ('lurkers') who are, in fact, the arse boils?
+1 more for a very noticeable difference Mark, thanks.
Edge on Win 10 desktop here, previously I'd have the fan spinning up and STW browser tabs hanging completely for 20-30s while ads were doing god knows what in the background. Much better now.
Cheers for the feedback people and glad it seems to have helped.
Following on the "it works for me" posts, I guess that's the same for the vast majority. It's just that they don't all feel the need to start a thread on it and it's the same few folk who repost their experiences on these threads.
It's by no.means perfect of course. I tried many times yesterday to start a thread, even getting a "your post is awaiting approval by a moderator" message at one point. So far, nothing. I'm going to follow that up with the Tech guys, even if it just means there's some better messaging.
I think what you’re saying is that anyone who posts content/replies is contributing quite meaningfully.
You need to consider what "contribute" means in this context.
What I'm saying is that on any forum the people who contribute content are a minority of visitors, and those who post regularly are a minority within that minority. That was in reply to someone being surprised that the forum was quiet during the night.
Without them there is no forum, no revenue stream.
Perhaps. Perhaps something else would replace it. Who knows.
So is it the other 90-99% of visitors (‘lurkers’) who are, in fact, the arse boils?
You've either misunderstood me or are deliberately twisting my words here. The lurkers are contributing, they're providing advertising revenue.
I've explained this twice now, I'm not doing it a third time. Read back.
<Without them there is no forum, no revenue stream.> Perhaps. Perhaps something else would replace it. Who knows.
It's like a chicken / egg thing: Which comes first, the content or the ad revenue? Actually, it's nothing like a chicken / egg thing. It's more like if a tree falls in the forest but there's no one to hear it. Oh, and also there's no trees. Is it really a forest?
I think I need a lie down.
Maybe this will help? 😛
🤣🤣
My god, I just fired up STW on Microsoft Edge on win11 not logged in, for reasons, and it uses 6-20% of my CPU (Ryzen 9) and 6GB memory. That's extraordinary, most games don't even manage that. Compare with unmeasurable % CPU and 158MB for my bank's web site (no ads) on the same browser. What are these ads doing, mining crypto?
I’ve been trying to browse using my iPad logged out… to stop me posting too quickly and too often in certain threads, ones where I’m guilty of being part of a “crowding out” problem, where the same old voices discourage other contributions. Anyway, the point is that it’s just not possible to read the forum logged out on my device. Pages will reload several times before you’ve managed to even read one post, never mind a whole page. Added to that, if you leave a STW tab open it causes other apps to crash. I didn’t realise that was even still possible with Safari on iOS/iPadOS, as I haven’t seen anything like it for years.
I’m back to the refresh issue. Any one else ?
I had the cookie pop-up every page this morning, but deleting cookies for STW and Double-click seems to have sorted it. (Reported via the forum help page fwiw.)
Again back to the constant refresh issue even on the main forum view page
same with me as well.
It’s like a chicken / egg thing: Which comes first
The egg …
It’s like a chicken / egg thing: Which comes first
The egg …
Only because the egg is a dinosaur evolving into a chicken.
Yes, crashing on pretty much every page within a matter of seconds for me. Shame, as it did seem better for a bit.
Yup. Something is definitely up. Investigating now. Sorry guys.
You know the annoying cookie acceptance box that wouldn't go away? It's gone completely. Even after running ccleaner to clear all the cookies it's gone. It's made me strangely nervous about using the site, what's the catch ?