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A whole industrial infrastructure depends on the availability of machines like these.
It's obvious how important they are and yet there's so few.
Chocolate factory?
Liquidity and ability to move money easily and cheaply
Houmous
Freedom of movement.
It’s obvious how important they are and yet there’s so few.
Old outdated technology. The fact there are so few proves the economy is progressing.
The things we really lack are skills. In our modern world people forget that things still have to be engineered and made but yet we have so few engineers coming up through the system. Bring back apprenticeships - way too few of those around.
I’m sure there was a stat somewhere that lawnmower manufacturing contributes more to the economy than fishing.
Also, no-one (me included) seems to understand what services actually are, despite them being 80% of our economy.
Someone to repair your toilet.
Bubble wrap.
Greggs Sausage rolls
Also, that article is bollocks. For example:
The reasons for German air superiority were several, of course, but a key one was their mastery of light-metal forging. While the Allies were still bolting together their planes out of steel plate, a slow, labor-intensive process ripe for error and unsuited to design optimization, the Germans were stamping and squeezing out complex structural elements from magnesium and aluminum alloys.
1. The Germans did not have air superiority. The Allies did.
2. Allied aircraft weren't bolted together out of steel plate. They were mostly riveted out of aluminium, but there would have been plenty of cast and forged components in there too. As I understand it, the B29 was incredibly advanced for those days and pushed the boundaries of technology to the limit. Germany never succeeded in producing anything comparable and the USSR had to reverse engineer it in order to catch up on technology.
The vitally important role played by people at the low end of the pay scale - cleaners, for example.
Diesel.
The entire infrastructure of the modern world is almost entirely dependent on diesel.
Fifty Things that Made the Modern Economy
More information: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1408709112/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_uN3zEbW9VFPD3
Raffia, probably.
Paper & pulp; think....reading, writing, printing, packaging, labelling, hygiene.
Also, that article is bollocks
Yes, it is.
while the Allies still rely on propeller-driven aircraft, the Luftwaffe has put three jets successfully into service
Allied jets were concurrent with German development, UK Meteor first service date 27 July 1944 (says wiki) vs April for the German 262.
Also, three individual aircraft does not make an air force.
back to the op.
zero hours contracts
Nail bars
Dear lord, are we really so self obsessed and vain that the beauty industry now accounts for more activity than things what done actually further the human races understanding of the world or improve the way we treat our surroundings or such other more noteworthy pursuits?
three individual aircraft does not make an air force
Don't say that around any Lithuanians, you might hurt their feelings.
Fifty Things that Made the Modern Economy
More information: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1408709112/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_uN3zEbW9VFPD3 /blockquote>There's an excellent podcast series on this from BBC World Service: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04b1g3c/episodes/downloads
So I'll choose from their list and go for the contraceptive pill: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04yph1b
Mesta was from (near) Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesta_Machinery
Another one from Tim Harford....barbed wire.
Sanitation and toilet rolls.
Without toilets we'd really be in the shit.
Another one from Tim Harford….barbed wire.
As an aside, probably...
Barbed wire and tinned food are almost entirely responsible for the shape of the Western front in ww1.
Without one or other it never would have stagnated like it did.
The long term impacts of that are huge.
Farmers turning out no matter the weather to look after crops and animals, then transport them to the places we buy them from.
Being able to tell the time. Very, very accurately.
I think I'm right in saying that the B29 project cost more than Manhatten as it was so complex
Sanitation
I was going to say that but in addition contraception in general (rather than just the pill).
1. The Germans did not have air superiority. The Allies did.
Depends what you mean by superiority and when you measure it.
Plus the allies jet engines were at least in part thanks to german scientists.....
Bees are quite important, aren't they?
If it weren't for bees we'd all be dead
Bless their little pollen-encrusted socks, the stripy, buzzy little bastards! 😀
Dear lord, are we really so self obsessed and vain that the beauty industry now accounts for more activity than things what done actually further the human races understanding of the world or improve the way we treat our surroundings or such other more noteworthy pursuits?
says man on mtb forum
The thing we repeatedly get told is THE economy GDP.
Dear lord, are we really so self obsessed and vain that the beauty industry now accounts for more activity than things what done actually further the human races understanding of the world or improve the way we treat our surroundings or such other more noteworthy pursuits?
Depends if you are counting the economic contribution of nail bars in terms of the value of nail services sold, or the total value of money laundered through them!
In 2016 agriculture contributed 0.62% towards UK GDP. Fisheries only contribute 0.1%! Madness!
ironically, toilet rolls are really important - without them the hospitals close because anyone who works or stays in there isn't able to clean themselves so the hospital isn't hygenic. whoever started the panic buying of them needs a hoof in the slats
UK actively rebuilding its top firm, Sheffield Forgemasters, through cheap government loans.
Old outdated technology. The fact there are so few proves the economy is progressing.
The quote above yours is lifted from the article, ultimately that funding was withdrawn and Sheffield Forgemasters never got the induction furnace. Which would have been used to build forged pressure vessels for the new EPR program, building on the existing skills and proven methods of the time. Instead Le Creuset got the work and ultimately made an arse of it. Thanks to attitudes such as yours we find ourselves in this situation, the fact is the tech is not outdated and the scarcity is a testament to the skill involved in operating such plant as well as the high tech requirements of the finished products.
On the subject of massive machines:
We might not build them any more but shipping is a major part of our economy, we still make bits for them and a UK flag on the back is still worth something.
In 2016 agriculture contributed 0.62% towards UK GDP. Fisheries only contribute 0.1%! Madness!
I'll ask the same question differently... does GDP mean anything at all?
In 2016 agriculture contributed 0.62% towards UK GDP. Fisheries only contribute 0.1%!
Arts and culture contribute more than either.
Plastic unfortunately
The things we really lack are skills. In our modern world people forget that things still have to be engineered and made but yet we have so few engineers coming up through the system. Bring back apprenticeships – way too few of those around.
If only there was more of an industry for them to get started in, instead we let them all close down. There's a domino effect where you let the blast furnaces close because they make little margin, then over a few years/decades you lose the forges and the more nice products because they're not viable on their own.
Old outdated technology. The fact there are so few proves the economy is progressing.
I'd also make the argument we've diluted the title of engineer to the point where it's of no value or appeal to kids despite (generally) being a 4 year degree course followed by 4 years of work to get chartered, pretty much the same as a Doctor. But the guy in Kwickfit can be an engineer too, which is like calling your butcher a doctor because he can take a knife to a body as well.
Lots of critical infrastructure like power generation, water and telephones - the problem is we've allowed successive Governments to sell it all off for the sake of tax cuts.
I’d also make the argument we’ve diluted the title of engineer to the point where it’s of no value or appeal to kids despite (generally) being a 4 year degree course followed by 4 years of work to get chartered
'twas ever thus. As a chartered engineer it pissed me off royally that the title "architect" is protected but "engineer" is not. Shortly after I graduated I visited family in Germany and was addressed as "herr ingenieur" - in all seriousness.
There is an old joke - In Germany if you are an engineer you are invited in to meet the daughter, in England you are invited in the meet the washing machine.
cromolyolly
Member
1. The Germans did not have air superiority. The Allies did.Depends what you mean by superiority and when you measure it.
Plus the allies jet engines were at least in part thanks to german scientists.
Like sir frank whittle, that well known nazi inventor of the jet engine you mean.?
Hans Ohain was developing a jet engine about the same time as Whittle, and I think both French and American inventors had theoretical and perhaps even working ramjets (would have to check, but I think one was even strapped to a bicycle as a test bed) in the early teens of the 20th C
The theory behind them was well understood. I think Whittle's was the first into production, it had some advantages, and some disadvantages over the Junkers engines of the Me262, most noticeably the centrifugal flow Whittle engine was more unstable (and heavier and bigger) that the axial flow of the Junkers.
Hmmm, outed myself as a nerd....
As much as we would all like to deny it...
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Salt...
When people first used salt to preserve food, it meant they could store food for the future, thus allowing them to focus on something other than just killing things and eating them...!
Internet grot
And in a previous era: hedge porn
And coke and hookers, obviously
thisisnotaspoon
SubscriberI’d also make the argument we’ve diluted the title of engineer to the point where it’s of no value or appeal to kids despite (generally) being a 4 year degree course followed by 4 years of work to get chartered, pretty much the same as a Doctor. But the guy in Kwickfit can be an engineer too,
My grandad was an engineer and as far as I could tell his job was mostly hitting bits of whatever ship he was on with hammers.
Incidentally, kwik fit don't call their people engineers, they use technician.
Carers, paid and unpaid.
Country would be ****ed by lunchtime without these folk putting in their shifts.
Also, no-one (me included) seems to understand what services actually are, despite them being 80% of our economy.
‘Services’ in this instance means retail, the public sector in its entirely, leisure and cultural services so it’s easy to think we only make money in the U.K. entertaining each other, selling imported goods to each other and our massive public sector. An almost closed loop economy.
But the truth is it also includes finance / banking which is a HUGE chunk of the U.K. economy, it’s our place in the economic world. A decent slice of it left the U.K. pre-brexit more will probably leave after. If you’re a socialist it means a massively devalued £ and a chance to expand other areas of our economy that are hurt by a strong currency. Banking has always been a high value, low workforce industry. If you’re a capitalist it’s a chance to deregulate and encourage more of it to come here with favourable tax rates and a blind eye to skullduggery.
Depends what you mean by superiority and when you measure it.
In 1944, when the first jets were introduced. The Allies had vast numerical superiority and could attack any target in Europe. Germany couldn't train pilots fast enough to replace their losses, didn't have enough fuel to keep their planes in the air, and couldn't sustain large-scale offensive operations.
Unpaid/ low "paid" carers of all ages, caring for people of all ages and health issues.
More relevant at the moment that ever I think.
In what way are unpaid carers important to the economy? Unless you are talking about their detrimental effect.
Are you for real Squirrelking? I could not do my job if others did not do the caring responsibilities that I have offloaded onto them by going to work. There are millions and millions of people in the key working age demographic who rely on carers to perform their roles.
Imagine you're a cog in the machine of production, happily going around fitting kitchens / installing industrial kit / making widgets / painting nails / doing legal stuff etc.
For the sake of this though experiment, imagine you have a 87 year old father with dementia living on his own. A relative provides an hour of care to him in the morning and an hour in the afternoon.
Imagine this person ceases to provide that care.
By 8.27am your 87 year father is getting distressed, by 9.00am his fall alarm has gone off and you're called at work. 1 day of work lost.
What do you do now? Do you leave him? Can you go back to work? If you do it would almost certainly escalate to hospital admission in days with further economic cost.
The other side of this is how does our economic model account for the value of care work? A parent who spends time nurturing and developing a child has zero value in our model. Is that really the case? If a parent does an awful job does it have zero cost?
War
Childcare in general is massively undervalued. It always astonihses me how they are on little more than minimum wage because, although people are quite happy to leave their little 3 month old pride and joy in their qualified and capable hands so that they can get back to work ASAP, they are not willing to pay a sufficient amount to cover the costs. Nurseries are run on very tight margins and the staff are paid very poorly what for they are responsible for. If I mess up in my job the consequences are normally insignificant. If they mess up then a childs life could be at risk.
In terms of the economy - it allows people to get back to work, earn money, spend that money and contribute to the economy. Or, go back to work in a job that is also important for said economy.
War
What is it good for?
And bin men.
Are you for real Squirrelking? I could not do my job if others did not do the caring responsibilities that I have offloaded onto them by going to work.
Absolutely for real.
That's not a benefit to the economy, that's a benefit to you. Unpaid carers are a ****ing embarrassment and symptomatic of the general attitude of no ****s given which was kicked off with care in the community. They are then reliant on the state for benefits because they either have no time to work or never got the education they deserved.
Why should someone else be denied access to education, work or any other form of social mobility because the system is so broken that nobody else will care for someone? Because that's the reality of unpaid carers, it's not an hour here or there as opposed to their entire life 24/7.
Seems it is actually toilet paper and pasta though not necessarily in that order.
My grandad was an engineer and as far as I could tell his job was mostly hitting bits of whatever ship he was on with hammers.
Which is kinda my point.
In most of the rest of the world, an engineer isn't:
Machining
Welding
Hitting stuff with hammers
Servicing your boiler
Even getting Chartered as an Engineer in the UK is* a piece of piss compared to the rest of the world e.g. the American equivalent is Professional engineer and involves a whole other set of exams.
*apparently, I still haven't gotten around to updating and submitting my form C despite completing it about 6 years ago!
There is an old joke – In Germany if you are an engineer you are invited in to meet the daughter, in England you are invited in the meet the washing machine.
I've fixed way too many washing machines (including the mother in laws).
Righto so somehow you've completely managed to decouple society from the economy. Surely the economy should be serving society not the other way round but that's another issue.
Why do I go to work? Because it's beneficial to me. I can't derive that benefit without the paid/ unpaid care sector. Its foundational for society and the economy to function.
I’ve fixed way too many washing machines (including the mother in laws).
Found out recently I couldn’t even fix my own. Control system goosed.
And that’s with me considering FIET.
Found out recently I couldn’t even fix my own. Control system goosed.
Some sort of Arduino based replacement?
Found out recently I couldn’t even fix my own. Control system goosed.
Can't replace the module?
I’d also make the argument we’ve diluted the title of engineer to the point where it’s of no value or appeal to kids despite (generally) being a 4 year degree course followed by 4 years of work to get chartered, pretty much the same as a Doctor. But the guy in Kwickfit can be an engineer too, which is like calling your butcher a doctor because he can take a knife to a body as well.
I've been in Engineering since I was 17, I'm now 44. My job title is Mechanical Engineer, but I never refer to myself as an Engineer, as I have no degree. I'm 2 years into a 4 years honours degree, hopefully I'll then be able to call myself an Engineer.
However, all our fitters are Engineers on linkedin. 🤣
Can’t replace the module?
Yes I could replace the (fairly simple) module. At a cost that was more than the machine was worth. Various bits had been replaced previously and it was about 12 years old.
However it was more likely to be one or more of four transducers. Each of which was stupidly expensive given what it was and killed the value in repairing it.
So perhaps couldn’t repair wasn’t quite true, but “couldn't repair at an economically viable cost making the machine beyond its economic service life” didn’t read as well.
And technically it was a tumble dryer but that didn’t read as well either.
I can’t derive that benefit without the paid/ unpaid care sector. Its foundational for society and the economy to function.
So why are you more deserving of working than the person you expect to do the caring for you for nothing? We may be at crossed purposes here and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just a selfish arse but I'm talking about the children and adults who have to miss out on life because they have to care for someone that the system doesn't.
Care work is bloody horrific and it's little wonder care homes have such a bad rep considering the working conditions, nobody does it for nothing out of choice.
RE ships engineers, thats a job that requires study and exams before anyone lets you loose with a hammer and requires further study for higher levels. When I did it you walked out with an HND and SVQ, now a foundation degree, graduates also welcome after completing the SVQ side. At sea you are a mechanical engineer and operations engineer with SAP responsibilities and a lot of fitting work. It's multi disciplinary and definitely a lot more than just hitting things with hammers (but you do get to do that, no other way to open a stubborn Misubishi Selfjector than a cadet standing on a peg spanner whilst a Ukrainian brick shit house wails on it with a sledge hammer)
I think we're at crossed purposes, it is bad that it has no value in our system and a huge opportunity cost for the person doing the caring. I'm not more deserving of getting a wage, just aware that I couldn't do what I do without carers but the money goes to me in our system the carer gets very little. You could set the country up differently so that this isn't the case but I can't see bojo taking that on.
Even getting Chartered as an Engineer in the UK is* a piece of piss compared to the rest of the world e.g. the American equivalent is Professional engineer and involves a whole other set of exams.
It certainly wasn't a piece of piss when I became Chartered in the 70s. 4 years postgrad experience, specific training provided by employer, training diary maintained, example design work submitted to ICE, professional interview and exam paper.
Paper clips
It’s so hard to find a salesman these days
It certainly wasn’t a piece of piss when I became Chartered in the 70s. 4 years postgrad experience, specific training provided by employer, training diary maintained, example design work submitted to ICE, professional interview and exam paper.
Still the same for IMechE, professional development-wise anyway. Dunno about exams but I'd need 4 years emploment experience for Incorporated then masters or equivalent for Chartered. At the moment I'd be lucky to get EngTech (mainly as I'm not sure my employer offers that level of support).
I think we’re at crossed purposes, it is bad that it has no value in our system and a huge opportunity cost for the person doing the caring. I’m not more deserving of getting a wage, just aware that I couldn’t do what I do without carers but the money goes to me in our system the carer gets very little. You could set the country up differently so that this isn’t the case but I can’t see bojo taking that on.
Yeah I get that, I see where you are coming from now. I know a lot of people who have worked in the care industry, it's one of those things I'm honestly surprised nobody cares more about given any one of us could end up in the system at some point. In fact it's bloody scary.
So why are you more deserving of working than the person you expect to do the caring for you for nothing?
there are people who volunteer to do this and many other tasks that are beneficial to their community. Either officially or unofficially. Given the cost of care, if someone is willing and in a position to volunteer it is sensible to accept the offer.
edit: I’ve seen you’ve resolved it amongst yourselves. I’ll butt out
QS' - nit picking, penny pinchers.
Pocpoc, I'm confident you earn more than the average wage. When I was working a Band 3 NHS job full time my take home was exactly what I paid my childminders for having two kids for two hours after school. Was I being a cheapskate by not finding a more expensive minder to send them to?
Money has to be invested in certain areas to allow others to prosper. We need future generations, so subsidising childcare provision or stay at home parenting might be helpful. Or encouraging more school hour roles, which is what I ended up doing as it made me £1100 richer each month, and even more importantly allowed me to spend more quality time with them both, providing a nurturing environment and bringing them to loads of different clubs which has enriched their lives and given them a taste of what great things there are to do in the world. I'm pretty confident that kind of childhood will increase the chances they'll be fitter, happier, more productive...
There is an old joke – In Germany if you are an engineer you are invited in to meet the daughter, in England you are invited in the meet the washing machine.
Bit odd that, most of the German movies I’ve seen involve an engineer fixing the washing machine with the lady of the house
d4ddydo666,I may have rambled a bit, but my point was that I could walk in to a factory operator role with no qualifications, training or real reponsibility and be paid the same, if not more, than if I had completed a minimum 2yrs full time training and qualification to become a Nursery Nurse who is responsible for the safeguarding of children at an age where they have no concept of danger and tend to do anything and everything they can to put themselves and others in danger.
My wife used to be said Nursery Nurse. After we had our first child he went to a different nursery, so that she could go back to work 16hrs a week so that she would then quality for statuatory maternity pay for our next baby. By the time travel, taxes and unpaid days off when son was sick (and we still had to pay for his nursery) she was averaging about £10/week profit.
I guess where my arguement falls down is that for her to earn more then nurserys would have to charge more and therefore we'd have been paying more for sons nursery and the end result would have been the same.
TDLR: I've just talked myseld round in circles. It's all because capitalism.
As a chartered engineer it pissed me off royally that the title “architect” is protected but “engineer” is not.
Me too. It is apparently because the intention was to prevent collapses, but at the the time the law was made, structural engineering didn't exist as a separate profession and architects were responsible for structure. I am not sure if it's a true story, as the Architects (Registration) Act was 1931, and the Institution of Structural Engineers had existed under that name since 1922, and as the concrete Institute since 1908, even though it didn't get a Royal Charter until 1934.
Are some of you saying that a skilled turner or miller, for instance, shouldn't be allowed to call themselves an engineer? Why does a degree make you an engineer when a 'proper' 5 year apprenticeship doesn't?