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After reading The Guardian, I thought it was 8% next year (4+4). 4% alone is too weak imo and much lower than other settlements.
I think the driver/door thing is more about conductors not wanting to be made redundant. If the rdg were smart, they would offer a guarantee to train them up as drivers!
There really does need to be a clear vision for the future of UK rail. Then the staffing and industrial relations would be much more manageable.
I would rather see conditions attached to a commitment for investment in new infrastructure, than a pay rise. That's what will ultimately improve the service for travellers.
It says on the RDG website;
'... pay increases of up to 8 per cent, covering 2022 and 2023 pay awards...'
They can't both be right!
I would rather see conditions attached to a commitment for investment in new infrastructure, than a pay rise. That’s what will ultimately improve the service for travellers.
There comes a point where seeking to improve services by making those who work in them poorer can be seen as counter productive by everyone. Are we not there yet?
Mine have been below inflation for at least ten years, how would you suggest I get what I deserve or what we need to attract people to fill the empty roles?
Yep.
We got a decent pay rise earlier this year, if you look at it purely as a one year rise - but as I pointed out to my Manager I'm still 15% down as we got bu99er all in the previous 5 years.
That graph up above feels right though, based on my experiences. The job I do now is barely paying any more than the same role (I was a lot more senior then) would've paid out in 2005/6 - I'd imagine though it's including pensions somehow in the calcs for the public sector to be above the private sector.
And Kryton, note it's averaging at less than £600pw AKA £30k, and showing getting on for +15 years of wage stagnation. A pal of mine is a train driver, they earn decent money but also have responsibility AND have a right mix & muddle of shifts to deal with (could you deal with never having the same <7 day> week of shifts, ever?)
It takes a year to train one, so you'd expect there's a 'premium' for that job, especially since the train companies don't train enough of them and rely on poaching from other companies - the industry/Govt have brought this on themselves IMO.
I don't know. There is a good case for pay rises and the RMT articulate their case better than the RDG.
I'm not convinced pay rises/changes to conditions will improve the rail network/service in the long term, though.
We need new track, signalling, stations + rolling stock for that. Yes, you need to pay the staff but I would start with research, then make a plan and stick to it.
My view on the negotiations is that goodwill and co-operation was exhausted far too long ago. Neither side trusts each other, which is very damaging to boh.
Something that is getting lost in this is that % doesn't actually cover the truth of the COL increases. A nurse like TJ's example getting 4% equates to just over £1000 more, after tax and with allowances being frozen, that'll be say £750-800. £60-65 per month.
Your middle manager type on £60K - getting the same % is going to be getting double that even allowing for higher tax rates. That is not equitable. No one inflates the nurse's gas bill in line with earnings. Their food bill goes up by the same amount. A litre of fuel to get to work is the same.... it disproportionately impacts the less well off. Even the £500 energy top up - everyone got that.
(and if the answer to that is that actually their gas bill does go up more because they've got a bigger house, and the fuel bill goes up more because they've got a bigger car.... that's not going to garner sympathy)
My wife works in a school (admin but comes from the same budget). She's been given 2% this year, that's £440. After tax, it's less than £30 a month. Her total pay rise is less than the price of the watches on the fancy watch thread.
Whoops, mistake there...... she didn't get anything last year, so it's 2% over the last 2 years.
The way strikes are defeated are by creating divisions; when you start to 'lose sympathy' because nurses and teachers are threatening to strike because it's all they have left, you're starting to side with the Tories.
Mick Lynch is about to do the phone in on Five Live. The usual listenership of foaming-at-the-mouth taxi drivers will be at the ready with their tirades.
Should be worth a listen 😂
Your middle manager type on £60K – getting the same % is going to be getting double that even allowing for higher tax rates. That is not equitable.
Indeed. My part of the public sector was offered a flat rate increase across all grades, which was far more equitable, though it was worse for me personally.
we had a performance based % increase, but underpinned so no-one got less than a certain amount, which meant that lowest pay grades actually got about 2x what the % increase would have given.
On the plus side, I'm now WFH until mid January. The office is ostensibly 2 days a week in, 3 days WFH but both my line manager and I have said we won't even be trying to get in during train strikes and the head of department didn't even question it, just agreed that trying to drive in winter conditions would be pointless.
I'm betting it will be resolved by the end of January. The offers can't get much better - maybe the conditions could be more favourable (to the strikers) but the carnage of the next few weeks really will force a deal IMO.
Meanwhile, it seems a drink in a brewery is beyond some train companies abilities.
Quelle surprise.
Note that 30%+ of services didn't run - and that's an improvement on what they have been running so far.
Yet official figures don't show that, as they cancel them far enough in advance (24hrs) to not have to record it as cancelled...
I'm trying not to conflate my frustration with the government, rail managers and unions with the individual staff, but it's hard to have much sympathy....
The governnent, if they chose to, could make an offer acceptable to the RMT.
I see that steve barclay, in his meeting wuth the RCN, refused to discuss pay.
It's only the single biggest issue that nurses have.
What an insult to the nursing profession.
It would appear that things aren't going little Rishi's way - unions not capitulating; economy in recession; chancellor saying economy will worsen further before any improvement; brexit downsides are increasingly difficult to ignore or deny; much vaunted trade deals are beung shown to be disadvantageous - australia/nz/japan; high profile policies beung ditched; uncontrollable back bench factions - and there's more...
Radio 4 on my way home stated that inflation is running at 11.* %, private sector average pay deals are 6.* % and public sector 2.2%. It's no bloody wonder staff are striking, and yet the government are refusing to have anything to do with negotiations. As was pointed out, most of these sectors worked all through the pandemic and the same politicians lauded them. Now they get derided and degraded for fighting for fair wages and conditions.
We should all be entirely sympathetic and supportive of these strikes, despite any personal hardship. If the current workers don't fight for fair pay and conditions there won't be any youngsters wanting to become teachers, nurses, carers etc. hell, there's evidence that this is happening already and the country will be even more ****ed in future than it is now if those roles can't be filled.
* can't remember the exact percentage points.
and the country will be even more **** in future than it is now if those roles can’t be filled.
I fully expect that any position can be filled for half the cost once we have a “deal” with India. After all, these are the people from the commonwealth who came to our rescue in the Second World War and flew spitfires that defeated the Germans and are now bravely coming to our aid again. The gammons will lap it up and Starmer will break out his best Union Jack and welcome each one of them personally.
If the current workers don’t fight for fair pay and conditions there won’t be any youngsters wanting to become teachers
But the figures are far worse for secondary school recruitment, where they are at just 59% of the DfE’s annual target, well below the 79% reached last year. It means the government has missed its own targets in nine of the past 10 years.
Teacher shortages are already at crisis point and such a substantial shortfall in recruiting trainees means this situation will become even worse. The shortfall in physics teachers – only 17% of target – is particularly concerning as this subject already suffers from acute shortages,
There really does need to be a clear vision for the future of UK rail. Then the staffing and industrial relations would be much more manageable.
The whole industry has been in managed decline for decades. Patchy "fix it" funding rather than long term "upgrade it" funding, privatisation, bailouts and the challenges of trying to run a vaguely modern service on what is mostly Victorian infrastructure.
There are exceptions of course (London mostly) but no Government has given it long term thought. The recent (very delayed) Integrated Rail Plan was widely panned, especially up North, the intention to set up a new "governing body" for rail, Great British Railways (terrible name...) has stalled completely in spite of a high profile competition for cities in the north to host the HQ.
It's a horrible mix of DfT, Network Rail (which is an arm's length governing body) and then a dozen train operators under all sorts of different contracts. And Government is far too inept to do anything about it - in fact they almost don't want to do anything anyway.
I see that steve barclay, in his meeting wuth the RCN, refused to discuss pay.
It’s only the single biggest issue that nurses have.
Note no strike in Scotland due to an improved offer. this shows that it can be done with the political will and that labour by refusing to acknowledge this 'cos it would mean approving of something the SNP have done are not using this as a stick to beat the tories with
For me it was very frustrating that on this mornings radio 4 interview they were able to repeatably (essentially) claim the reduced passengers after covid was a reason to manage decline of rail, without any counter questioning around the effect this would have on decarbonisation of transport
Theres also the inherent contradiction at the heart of all this
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can't justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can’t justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
That argument comes around in one form or another all the time from people who have no idea about Induced Demand. You get it with cycle lanes too - "oh I never see anyone cycling so why build cycle lanes?"
Strangely, no-one ever says "oh I never see anyone driving across that field, why build a road?"
Sorry CL, but Binners is right. The HS2 London Commuter line is an abomination
<edit, just realised that your point wasn't aimed at HS2. Never mind, HS2 can **** off anyway>
They want to build a 100 billion pound commuter line into London from Birmingham, while simultaneously failing dismally to provide a service from Manchester to the capital on the existing lines
You couldn’t make it up
Speaking as someone who lives less than a mile from HS2 route. Who knows what use the line will have in its lifetime, yes it's expensive and has ripped up some beautiful parts of the country but part of decarbonisation has to involve a decent rail network. I just wish there was the foresight to extend it fully as initially proposed & improve services in the north that seem desperately required, especially when compared with Londons relatively good transport network.
Now back to these strikes...
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can’t justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
Cause or effect?
For me, I and my family have been increasingly using rail for work and leisure. Up until 3 years ago when Scotrail messed up the new timetable and caused more headaches than I care to remember. Since then I worry about taking the train as you never know if you will actually get there. And in the last year it has become exponentially worse, particularly in northern England.
Instead, I had two of my lads and myself travel this last week by shiny new electric bus on the exact same routes as the train in central Scotland - and all 7 journeys the buses were basically booked out / one spare seat. So much so that Ember are discussing expanding having not been running for long.
So there is a desire for public transport - but somehow rail is being run down and bodged in a way which is reducing numbers.
So in my head, all the strikes at the moment is a bit like arguing who gets the back deck of the Titanic....
You couldn’t make it up
HS2 paid my wages for about 2 years a few years back. Trust me it's a waste of money. 😀
but part of decarbonisation has to involve a decent rail network
HS2 isn't really a rail project, it's a propping up the engineering and construction industry project. On that basis alone you could arguably justify it's existence but there are much better things to spend 100bn on that would support the construction industry and provide higher carbon returns. Like nuclear power and tidal barrages, as well as improved wind/solar etc.
I like taking the train but every time I do I'm disappointed. At the moment we won't even contemplate it. Can't book in advance so fares are high, good chance it wont be running, weekends a total lottery. A lot to do with management and strategy but the strikes have just put the boot in. Whether the strikers are right or wrong to strike they are still just hastening the redundancies which are coming. Bit like the postal workers except rail could and should have a future unlike the letter post.
I wasn't very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational with the interviewer over the size of sacrifice that workers have made as a result of striking. Refused to answer and turned it into a diatribe on parroting the lines being reported in the RW press (Sun, Mail, etc.) when he could have easily answered and then got back to his point.
Was still better than the transport minister refusing to answer whether they'd introduced new criteria at the 11th hour and instead just saying literally the same things over and over again about 'a package of reforms'
I like taking the train but every time I do I’m disappointed. At the moment we won’t even contemplate it.
At the moment you'd have to be absolutely out of your mind to rely on the train to get you to work and back if you lived in the north of England.
Unfortunately it looks like the gulf between the two sides in this dispute is growing wider by the day and the differences becoming even more irreconcilable. It doesn't look like theres any compromise to be had on either side. The government have obviously decided that this is a battle they actively want, for idealogical reasons, as everything they do seems to be to antagonise the unions and escalate the dispute further
A lot to do with management and strategy but the strikes have just put the boot in. Whether the strikers are right or wrong to strike they are still just hastening the redundancies which are coming
^ that.
Yeah, have your 10% increase. But half of you are out of a job shortly.
Which, in light of climate change and low carbon public mass transport that the railways should be, is utterly crazy.
Last night I had to get to London and due to the train issues I took the car. But the reality is, even though I'm in a direct line to London, it's so unpredictable and expensive it's not always the best option. Strike or no no strike.
My car journey with incidents and weather was within 5 minutes there and back of my predicted (Google maps) time.
When I lived in Switzerland I didn't need a car.
Yeah, have your 10% increase. But half of you are out of a job shortly.
Which, in light of climate change and low carbon public mass transport that the railways should be, is utterly crazy.
Can you give me some examples when just taking a kicking has led to being in a stronger negotiating position to not continue taking a kicking? Are you assuming that this Government will at some point take sympathy on the bloodied bodies for not fighting back.
If they agree to a shity pay offer, it won't stop these ****s from reducing the workforce later.
I wasn’t very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational
that’s the second time I’ve heard him do this. He is very good at batting very straight bowled questions. As soon as it gets difficult or “controversial” he gets very angry and confrontational very quickly.
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as 'the enemy within' like the miners we're for Fatcha in the 80's?
And that they're about to give them a similar shoeing?
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as ‘the enemy within’ like the miners we’re for Fatcha in the 80’s?
That is the same for anyone the Tories don't like isn't it? Rail workers, nurses, judges, lawyers - always the enemy. It's a characteristic of populism - invent an enemy and then claim you're on the public's side against them.
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as ‘the enemy within’ like the miners we’re for Fatcha in the 80’s?And that they’re about to give them a similar shoeing?
Oh yeah, it's all a colossal distraction. Look over here at these woke snowflake rail workers / nurses / teachers demanding more money while we do some final asset stripping over there.
2016: We'll give £350m a week to the NHS
2020: clap for carers, they're all legends
2022: of course you can't have any more money, you should be privileged to get what you are
Basically the same on the railways - paint them as a bunch of dinosaurs unwilling to "modernise", turn the tide of public opinion against them...
I wasn’t very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational
No, it wasn't his finest hour, but he was better than Mark Harper a few minutes later, refusing to answer the question on whether he'd insisted that DOO be included in the offer.
I wasn’t very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63955617
It was an odd question to lose his temper on IMHO
BUT he's got a point about the BBC being further to the right than it should be.
If they agree to a shity pay offer, it won’t stop these **** from reducing the workforce later.
A fair point, I agree.
It is a rock and a hard place position.
It was an odd question to lose his temper on IMHO
Was it because of just that question though? It’s odd that it’s cut like that.
The government have obviously decided that this is a battle they actively want, for idealogical reasons, as everything they do seems to be to antagonise the unions and escalate the dispute further
Because I think there's still a lot of support for nurses, and teachers too. It gives them a strike / union to target that won't get defended so easily (when thread resurrected a week ago, there were a few comment like one I select as example)
Must be nice to demand a job you can’t be kicked out of with an in excess of 4% pay rise whilst us private workers can get a months notice (there are ways of getting rid of people even quicker) and are lucky if we get anything at all.
and that's the way to divide and conquer, to set the public against the strikers. So if they can't turn us against nurses and teachers, then they'll have to do it against rail workers and postmen.
Which then makes the potential future legislation banning certain professions from taking industrial action that bit more palatable.
TBF, Mick Lynch is a Union leader, so he is there to get the best deal for his people.
As much as I disagree with a lot of Tory policy, HS2 is a good idea, just badly implemented.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what we need is modernisation of the infrastructure. That has to come first, then the working practices will naturally fall into place.
Dropping DOO into the deal at the last minute was premature.
However, I think the unions need to be realistic about what can be achieved. 5-10% pay rise with some improved/altered conditions seems reasonable to me and in line with other settlements.
Part of the difficulty is the size and breadth of RMT members. Tracklayers have a different requirement to signalmen and so on.
IMHO Mick Lynch will lose support of public with his "we're fighting for the working man" stuff...as he said on 4....
You never show any admiration for the fight that working people are putting up
He's not, he's fighting for money and job security of his members.
Also, I think the Driver Only train thing is a strange hill to die on....many (most?) Of the commuter lines into London are DO, as is the entire tube network (carrying millions of passengers a year between them). It isn't about safety, it's about protecting guards' jobs. Which is fair enough for a union, but don't claim it's a safety thing.
It isn’t about safety, it’s about protecting guards’ jobs. Which is fair enough for a union, but don’t claim it’s a safety thing
It is about safety. We have had a train driver on this thread explaining why
It is about safety. We have had a train driver on this thread explaining why
Is it really?
We've had guards only trains for decades and I've never seen an accident or inquest report, for our lines, stating that the root cause was lack of a guard.
Guards on trains are like banks of high streets, they belong to a different era.
Trying to figure out why Northern has scrapped 95% of its services over the whole strike period, not just the actual days of the strike.
I wonder if they’re trying to turn the public against their workers. Or perhaps they’re just so incompetent that it’s easier to cancel everything and just blame it on strikes.
With Northern it’s definitely just incompetence.
I had a fantastic message through Trainline telling me that my trains to Birmingham and back tomorrow (conference) had been cancelled. But, hey! We can get you halfway there tomorrow and the remainder the day after. It’ll just cost you £5 more than your current ticket.
It is about safety. We have had a train driver on this thread explaining why
So what about all the trains and tubes that run currently DO? No disrespect to an an actual train driver, but I would expect them to support the union line.
It isn't about safety.
We’ve had guards only trains for decades and I’ve never seen an accident or inquest report, for our lines, stating that the root cause was lack of a guard.
1) it’s not about the cause, but the response… when the shit hits the fan, who steps up?
2) if you want driver only services, sort the infrastructure first
3) there is a large minority of Brits who simply can’t control their behaviour unsupervised
So what about all the trains and tubes that run currently DO?
Are they not systems that were designed as driver only/driverless from the outset? Rather the patchwork of rail infrastructure that's been gradually added to over the course of 150 or so years?
I've had to get off at a station where the platform was shorter than the train and the bike carriage was way back on open track. That needed someone to know I was there and coordinate me getting off safely.
As mentioned above, the suitable infra has to come first.
Are they not systems that were designed as driver only/driverless from the outset?
Absolutely not. All London commuter trains used to have guards, and the old slam door rolling stock. The tube has always been a hotch potch of different standards and rolling stock.
3) there is a large minority of Brits who simply can’t control their behaviour unsupervised
This is, to be polite, spurious. Again, look at Greater London (I know, but that's my experience - commuting for 30 years)....sure you get occasional trouble with drunks/hooligans etc but a train guard isn't going wade in and stop that.
It isn’t about safety.
You've clearly never been on the night train from leeds to manchester. 😀
I think the driver on here made the point they couldn't control a 250m train by themselves, which in itself is a fair point. Same pretty much goes for a single guard though, not sure what ne person is going to do when there's a load of yobs kicking off and it's not like they are any good at resolving issues that they are there for like ensuring people get the seat they booked.
Anyway
If they agree to a shity pay offer, it won’t stop these * from reducing the workforce later.
No but it might stop these * from reducing the workforce sooner. Binner's point is spot on, the rail unions are being setup as the fall guys for the winter of discontent part 2 and they are walking in to the trap completely voluntarily. The government can't take it out on the teachers or nurses, but them bolshie overpaid button pushers (as many will see them) will be fair game amongst many of the public.
You’ve clearly never been on the night train from leeds to manchester.
Lucky to get a train in the day between Leeds and Manchester, thought they stopped running at dusk, they haven't worked out a way to stop the candles blowing out yet.
They are taking it out on the teachers and nurses as well.
Same pretty much goes for a single guard though, not sure what ne person is going to do when there’s a load of yobs kicking off and it’s not like they are any good at resolving issues that they are there for like ensuring people get the seat they booked.
I rather think it's a wild misconception to think that the "safety" aspect of guards on trains is to karate-chop drunken yobs unconcious. 🙂
The tory policy is working, on rail, NHS, Utilties, Immigration, there's probably more.
The policy of running the UK into the ground and make some cheeky side cash whist they are at it.
It's been so transparent for so long, and yet people keep voting conservative.
Guards perform so many roles - it's a mix of safety, customer service, supporting the driver, ticket checks/revenue collection, passenger assistance (especially for wheelchairs etc)...
Outside London, where there's a host of ticket options, it's essential to have someone checking - not all stations have ticket offices or machines, contactless is far from universal, each TOC has their own app or system and pricing (2 services on the same route by different operators can be wildly different in price) so it needs someone who understands all that and can manage it.
The Driver Only stuff is up there with the ongoing Tory insistence that TfL look again at driverless tube trains. It'd cost billions to implement for a saving of only millions. Utterly unworkable but they keep pushing this line as a way of persuading the public that train drivers are simply overpaid button pushers.
The UK tory regime is gonna be giving Vladimir Putin a run for his money for longest uncontested rule if they stay in power much longer.
TfL look again at driverless tube trains
Aka the DLR 😉
ticket checks/revenue collection
So if this so important, why do the train operators want DO trains? Surely the guards would pay for themselves if this is true?
Well, let's say 50 customers per hour at £10 per ticket, that's £500. The cost per hour of one conductor is probably no more than £20, or 4% of revenue.
Aka the DLR 😉
DLR is relatively new and was built from the ground up with the ability to run driverless. It isn't a true driverless system, there's an "attendant" on board who can take over if required and I've seen it pretty regularly where they'll open up the controls and drive it manually for a while - sometimes stuff like signalling conflicts for example.
Trying to retrofit a true driverless system into the tube network, parts of which date back a century, is pretty much unworkable.
Yep, pretty good point Twodogs, if there was a commercial reason to keep them the rail companies would. Sorry but the safety argument is rubbish, even when a train leaves a station, there's much more reliable methods for the driver to see if it's safe to move off than somebody squinting down the platform. Talking of safety how many serious incidents have been down to driver error, seems to be quite a common conclusion.
Anyway what we believe is a bit irrelevant, there's various safety bodies whose job it is to make sure the operating procedures are safe and if they are happy with DO then so be it.
So if this so important, why do the train operators want DO trains?
Do they? It was rather telling the minister refused to answer the simple question about whether it was forced on them by the government.
Plus commercial sense and the rail company management dont really go hand in hand. Especially now they just get the cash from the government anyway.
Pretty dangerous to assume everyone will buy a ticket, just 'cos they should! You need barriers or ticket inspectors + punishments at some point.
It is about safety. We have had a train driver on this thread explaining why
Is it really?
We’ve had guards only trains for decades and I’ve never seen an accident or inquest report, for our lines, stating that the root cause was lack of a guard.
Guards on trains are like banks of high streets, they belong to a different era.
DOO incidents happen all the time. They just don’t get reported. Now we can’t say these would have been prevented with a Guard but a second pair of eyes would have perhaps prevented these incidents.
https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/safety-digest-05-slash-2022-north-london-pti-events
DLR is relatively new and was built from the ground up with the ability to run driverless. It isn’t a true driverless system, there’s an “attendant” on board who can take over if required and I’ve seen it pretty regularly where they’ll open up the controls and drive it manually for a while – sometimes stuff like signalling conflicts for example.
Yeah, I was being a bit facetious....I travelled on the DLR daily for about 12 years, and it always amused me that a driverless train had windscreen wipers 😉. Regular users know that you never bother sitting in front left seats cos chances are you're gonna be kicked out by the passenger assistance bod when they need to drive.
But presumably a driverless tube would also be "partly driverless"
I stopped watching him. That one is absolutely spot on though. Nail on head.
Guards on trains are like banks of high streets, they belong to a different era.
Until your daughter is travelling home on one late at night.
It doesn't look good! This is what Great British Railways and the new arrangements are supposed to stop - rewarding failure. However, the new concession approach could just as likely create severe regional divisions, with everyone fighting over the best/nicest contracts, with nobody wanting the crap ones.
TLDR......
Guards on trains are like banks of high streets, they belong to a different era.
Unless you're a wheelchair / restricted mobility who needs someone to put a ramp down at unmanned stations......
Can someone explain how the Government, Network Rail and the ToC's work with paying the drivers?
Struggling to work out how it's all funded.
Presumably the ToC's pay the drivers wages? Are these subsidised by the Government/Network Rail?
Can someone explain how the Government, Network Rail and the ToC’s work with paying the drivers?
Struggling to work out how it’s all funded.
Presumably the ToC’s pay the drivers wages? Are these subsidised by the Government/Network Rail?
The Train operating Companies run the trains.They are Governement owned, the Govt pay them a set fee to run the trains, so there is a small bit of privatisation to it still, but, only a very small part. The TOCs pay Network Rail (owned by the Government) to run the trains on NRs tracks. NR own most of the infrastructure, some stations are ran by the TOCs, some by NR. The vast bulk of Staff working and servicing the infrastructure are employed, or sub contracted to NR. The TOCs employ drivers, Guards, catering Staff and some station staff. Most TOCs run at a loss. There are maybe 5 that ran a profit before Covid, maybe only 2 or 3 are back in profit now.
Most passenger TOCs employ their own Drivers. This is what caused the wage inflation for Drivers in the late 90’s. Before that, drivers were not a well paid bunch, and all were employed by British Rail, but Virgin, and Cross-Country needed a lot more drivers, so advertised at far better rates, and it has continued until now, in that the higher paying TOCs take Drivers from the lower paying Companies, who then have difficulty getting new Staff (it really isnt a great job for some TOCs), so have to increase their wages.
So, yes, the TOCs pay the Drivers wages. But, now, all of the TOCs are Government owned, and ran by the Dept. for Transport, via the TOCs. And the DfT dont want to give a large pay award,or else everyone will want a big pay rise if the Rail workers get one (it isnt just Drivers).
Subsidies. Yes, there are lots. And none of it is clear. An estimate is whatever is coming in through fares is matched by Government subsidy. The latest 'High Level Output Specification’ came out in December. This is what the Government will allow the Railway to spend in the next 5 years.It was the worst report for 20+ years, or, since it was introduced. No key points that need to be done, no aims to improve services etc, it was just a ‘this is what you’re geting’. The DfT have lost the plot, and it has been left to the Railway to sort out what is going to be a priority. This is both a good and bad thing. The Office for Rail Regulation oversees what Netwrok Rail do. NR have recently had to be told off for denying access to extra trains in Cheshire. But surely that is their job - get more traffic on the railway, and get more income? On the other hand, they could get some quality small electrificiation schemes done that would allow a lot of diesel engines to be taken off the network, but, they dont seem at all interested in actually doing that work.
Its a malaise coming from the Government. The Govt. cant be arsed doing something, so pass the buck, and NR cant be bothered sorting it either, so the Public are left with the worst of both worlds.
@alanl thanks for the reply - makes more sense now.
I thought the ToC's were all private - didn't realise they ran them on behalf of the Government.
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