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Rail users don't pay taxes?
Edit: I think it is fair to assume that the majority of rail users pay car tax, fuel tax, income tax, and Vat.
And that their use of the railways is hugely beneficial to other road users.
The rail worker in the audience was good on question time, some tory idiot said it was absurd that staff can't just walk across from Kings cross to Euston (or was it St Pancras? I don't recall) if there are staff shortages in one particular station.
The rail worker had to point out that they are operated by different private franchises, as a result of tory privatisation, so that would be akin to asking an ASDA worker to do a few hours in a Tesco.
The tory idiot then doubles down and asks how to fix the problem.
I'm paraphasing massivley, but, really....REALLY? lol!
The difference being that road users pay taxes in the form of fuel duty and vehicle excise duty that more than cover the cost of roads
Sure about that? Maybe the cost of building and maintenance, but roads cost a lot more than that.
However much it is, it’s still government funded. So a “subsidy” or “investment and maintenance”? The point still stands about the terms we (and media and politicians) use when talking about our infrastructure.
The tory idiot then doubles down and asks how to fix the problem.
But to be fair another obvious Tory voter in the audience pointed out that the dinosaurs died out because they didn't embrace "new technology".
Which I found particularly interesting as I had been misled into believing that it was a meteorite 65 million years that caused them a problem.
It turns out that "new" technology is in fact 65 million years old.
To be fair it was a strike that killed off the dinosaurs.
Nah, they adapted, took to the skies, and evolved into birds.
You could say that the meteorite strike was the start of a successful revolution.
Privatised monopoly like railways are always more expensive for poorer service
The Italian private railways are a similar price to Trenitalia (the nationalised operator), quite cheap. I'm not sure why that is as I've not looked into it.
I wonder if Tory voter has ever stood 2m away from a train rocketing past at over 100mph? Or trusting that the signaller has blocked the lines when you step on track to do some work?
He should be happy as the railways are still feet, yards,chains and miles
RMT: RMT on Opinium Poll - rmt.
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-opinium-poll/
A surprising level of support for the RMT among Financial Times readers. Not necessarily universal, and I don't know if it is my biased, but the pro-RMT comments seem significantly more articulate than the antis.
Financial Times: Rail strikes across Britain: FT readers share their views.
https://www.ft.com/content/5ef70ac9-2505-4c00-910d-f303fdf2662d
It shouldn't be behind the FT paywall.
Edit: I wonder if the government has perhaps seriously miscalculated potential public support for the RMT. To be fair I am quite taken back by some of the FT readers letters, which would not have seemed out of place in the Morning Star.
I wonder if the government has perhaps seriously miscalculated potential public support for the RMT.
I'm going with this one.
Lynch has articulated this in a very clear big picture way. It's a fine line but I think when you put it in the terms he does it's a classic story of almost good v evil, especially when the public are suffering at the hands of the same 'evil.'
.
So...
As im taking friday off to go to a wedding really had to come in to do a few things in work
Had to take the kids guinea pigs to my parents to be babysat while we are away so went there this morning (obviously one of the little shits escaped from its carrier en route so wasted 30 mins trying to get it out from under the car seat & it wee'd on one of my shoes!) But that took 30km off my route
So rode the 64km from dunstable to whitechapel, took about 3 hours and was pretty pleasant mostly National Cycle Network, only crap bit was the South Mimms M25 junction
Going to go for a more scenic route on the way back along the canal
Ernie pictured in negotiation with Grant Schapps earlier today...
So are the rumours about govt meddling true? All others seem to be sorted by now; Merseyrail, scotrail, tfw...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62325842
Well labour don't want any meddling
Well labour don’t want any meddling
It's pretty clear that they don't want to support the ordinary working person.
Angela Rayner won’t be happy with that - Sam Tarry is reportedly her other half.
He also joined her on her essential lockdown / business trip to Durham in which Sir Keir enjoyed a korma and a few cheeky pints.
Angela Rayner won’t be happy with that – Sam Tarry is reportedly her other half.
Has anyone told his wife and kids this?
They've just turned down 9.4%. Most others were around 5!
Correction, TfW have turned down 4.5% and Merseyrail accepted 7%
They’ve just turned down 9.4%. Most others were around 5!
Thought 9.4% was the current rate of annual inflation, they'd turned down something like 4% = 4% over 2 years, or something like that, but with changes in conditions?
They’ve just turned down 9.4%. Most others were around 5!
And some Scotrail chap was on about guaranteed overtime on offer. Not working shifts to meet customers demands, just be offered a guaranteed minimum amount of work on overtime rates....
There's some serious bullshitting and mis information going on it seems.
Is it me?
Oh, sorry yea, I read that wrong. 9.4% would be good going I reckon though.
He also joined her on her essential lockdown / business trip to Durham in which Sir Keir enjoyed a korma and a few cheeky pints.
The one that was investigated? Perhaps you could remind us of the outcome?
They’ve just turned down 9.4%. Most others were around 5!
According to the Guardian, the RMT rejected 8% over two years. So 4% per year when inflation is more than double that.
I can't see how the management could offer guaranteed overtime, to be fair. Surely O/T is optional?
My understanding is drivers have the upper hand here as there's not enough to go around.
Well it's not like news providers to misrepresent information to the public, they've never done that before!
Nice to see some modern union reps are wiser to the nasty little traps they set.
The narrative as long as I've been alive has been don't strike. Strikers cast as unreasonable commoners, represented by load-mouthed northern reps with unrealistic/outrageous demands. Interviews with enraged inconvenienced members of the public.
Don't protest. The public aren't on your side and the police will cosh you over the head. Interviews conducted to establish outrage, suggest inconsistency and contradictions in motives as well as discrediting individuals.
Working class people look everyone's taking the piss and getting more than yow. Look scroungers even people in prison are living The Life of Riley. Diversionary BS so the real exploiters, corruption (government, employers, corporations) and piss takers can carry on as normal, while more and more, draconian rules and sanctions are laid on for the people at the bottom.
Labour policies reviewed by out of work musicians, single mothers on benefits to suggest to the rest of the working classes that it's a party representing scroungers.
They have had to be a bit more subtle about it here and there but the basic narrative, do as you're told or else remains.
Shapps on radio4 this morning was shifty as hell, (as usual) definitely get the feel that the government are happy with the conflict- his refusal to be involved in the negotiations was quickly dismantled by Nick Robinson
Chedarchallenged still sulking about the Durham nonsense? Believing what you read in the daily mail is always a route to disappointment
Anyway cycled back up to Watford along the A5(not that pleasant tbh) then along the canal to berkhampstead, over to Ashridge and some nice single-track, photo op at Ivinghoe beacon, then over the Downs into Dunstable
So 1hr there & back drive to my parents
8 1/2hrs of cycling 145km for about 3 hours in work (30 mins of which was spent eating)
I support the strikes.
What's the deal tomorrow. Need to get from London to East Anglia from Liverpool Street.
@Alpin. I'm sure if you ask Mick Lynch he will have an answer. He walks on water after all.
I want Mick Lynch to do my next pay negotiation.
Can someone explain why Avanti are able to blame 'industrial relations' for cancelling two trains on me next week, and another the next week?
None coincide with Liz's funeral or an official strike date.
I'm slowly confirming my bias that some in the train industry want to wreck the future of the railways...m
Because it doesn't take official action for rail workers to stop volunteering to work rest days or overtime.
They're just trying to deflect the blame. They don't have enough staff/drivers and reading between the lines, I reckon that as well as the odd strike days, the workers are choosing not to do overtime. This is going to me much more generally disruptive than well publicised strikes, the effects of which can be mitigated.
Can someone explain why Avanti are able to blame ‘industrial relations’ for cancelling two trains on me next week, and another the next week?
Avanti rely heavily on drivers doing "voluntary overtime" - in other words coming into work on days off to drive trains
Recent union discussions, talks on pay etc have resulted in what is basically a "work to rule" state so they're wildly short of drivers. Recruitment and training is still in a spiralling backlog post-Covid (this is true of most train operators) so they put in place a much reduced "temporary" timetable to try and run a reliable - if much reduced - service.
Government could/should have helped in resolving it but Grant Shapps was busy with the important issues of talking about number plates on bikes. Mostly to take attention away from his epic failures in dealing with the rail issues.
To some extent use of overtime is inevitable The alternative is having so many drivers that when nobody is off sick or on holiday you are paying staff to do nothing.
Some use of overtime to meet demand is sensible. Whether the balance is right is the question. Any planned use of overtime means disruption when there is a staff dispute. So go with the current system and accept reduced service when there is a pay disoute or over supply staffvand put up fares to cover the cost.
Nonsense
Sick rates and holidays are entirely predictable. You recruit to cover this. Need 100 staff on duty you need 115 on the books roughly. Holidays need to be spread over the year
What they have done is only have 100 on the books and rely on overtime to cover the shortfall. Stupid and leads to the situation we have
so they put in place a much reduced “temporary” timetable to try and run a reliable – if much reduced – service
Which is understandable. But why did they take a booking on Friday and cancel the train by email on Saturday. Barstewards.
What they have done is only have 100 on the books and rely on overtime to cover the shortfall. Stupid and leads to the situation we have
Seems to be this. And now blaming it staff, not their incompetence.
Although I do note the staff are happy with all the overtime they have been earning, hence such a strong negotiation..
Has anyone seen the 'Lynch for PM'
t-shirts?
Someone should tell Ernie.
Sick rates and holidays are entirely predictable. You recruit to cover this. Need 100 staff on duty you need 115 on the books roughly. Holidays need to be spread over the year
Good luck getting staff to take their holidays evenly over the year. With a sickness rate of 4% you could only have about 10% off on holiday at any one time before you were short. That would be some fight for the summer holiday weeks.
It's more complicated (messy) than that. At least some of the operators management have 1.75 of their 2 hands tied behind their backs by the Government. The Dft have control (have to agree to) much of the ££ spend or changes to spend.
This exactly where Grant Shatts-his-pants has been dodging the issue. Just like with Thatcher vs the miners, this Gov is spoiling for a fight by proxy with the last union with any actual power.
Has anyone seen the ‘Lynch for PM’ t-shirts?
I initially mis-read that. I think I'd prefer my original interpretation.
That mis-reading is just a tad more contentious...
Someone mentioned travel in Italy. You can travel about 30km return for EUR13 on the high-speed train (private operator), or EUR7.50 on the slow one (nationalised).
The slow train still does 130kph, just stops more often.
This is on a network with 4 electrified lines, side-by-side. Double-decker trains and a service every 1/2hr or more.
Cappuccino (china cup) and croissant on the concourse is under EUR3.
The UK has a lot of catching up to do.
This is on a network with 4 electrified lines, side-by-side. Double-decker trains and a service every 1/2hr or more.
Due to the rather haphazard way that railways were built in the Victorian times by lots of competing companies, merged, ripped up, nationalised, privatised etc and the way that other infrastructure (towns, cities, bridges, roads...) has been built around it, there's no chance of expanding the current network by adding more parallel lines or accommodating double decker trains.
It's a separate thread but it's why HS2 (and Northern Powerhouse Rail) is so desperately needed.
Instead we have a system creaking at the seams with impossible "improvements" demanded of it and it's being used as a political football. Hence all the strikes. ☹️
Arguably Italy's rail investment has been excessive. But I reckon it's always better to err on the side of capacity and futureproofing rather than on penny pinching and kicking the can.
Something that stuck in my mind was a comment that the worst thing ever to happen for UK infrastructure was that we didn't get bombed to shit in ww2 or occupied by commies. That's an exaggeration, but there's a lot of truth in it, we could keep on keeping on with old worn out shit and so inevitably we did, and we didn't rebuild cities on the immense scale that some european and japanese cities needed it, which is obviously <good> but did mean we couldn't smash in new high speed rail into the heart of London or Edinburgh.
I don't think that is true.
The first thing that happened was the Beeching cuts. But it is really from the late 70's onward that the divergence happened, especially the way privatisation happened without any joined up thinking, leaving it to private competing companies to have a unified plan for the benefit of users was never going to happen. From the late 70's European countries started to realise they needed high speed rail mainlines, combined train stations with buses and trams to create public transport hubs (and of course started building proper cycling infrastructure. Some of that was already planned in the UK, but was scrapped in the wave of privatisation of the 80's.
Harking back to how much was damaged in the war, or that British cities are unequally random is just excuses, it was and is all about political will.
For sure, the high speed networks you see in Europe/Japan have taken decades to build and starting from scratch is easier. Some of the Beeching cuts did kind of make sense where it was a tiny branch line to nowhere. Where the UK went wrong was not committing to a long-term future for rail at that point. You only have to look at HS2 to see 'what the public want', though: nothing anywhere near anything!
The latest is RMT won't take a 5% increase, backdated to Jan 2022, then an 8% increase next year. That seems pretty good to me and in line with other operators. Apparantly it fell apart on the drivers opening the doors for passengers (thus relieving the conductor). Can't really see a problem with that, myself, especially if the conductors are just reassigned elsewhere, or maybe learn to become drivers!!
Is that 4% this year, with 4% on top for next year? ie 8% in 2023?
Not much detail in that document tbf - it could be interpreted in a number of ways.
Closure of all ticket offices - that can't be right?
Bit presumptuous to say that a 'review' will lead to job cuts
I can't see any parallels between the state of the rail network and the NHS, no, none at all. 🙄
'...Adoption of new technology with no payment'. What, so if you're using a pencil to write with and your boss gives you a pen, you need a pay rise?
How about if the adoption of that new technology makes the job harder for one person working the train along and increases the responsibility carried by that individual?
It isn't an offer of 8% in 2023; it's 4% for 2022 which would be backdated, followed by 4% in 2023.
The 13 points in the document are a clear indication of how far apart both sides are; there isn't much there which could be interpreted differently.
Neither the RDG nor gov nor Network Rail have attempted to rebut the points since that doc was made public by the RMT.
Your analogy about transitioning from pencil to pen is meaningless when referring to payment for adopting new technology.
As for closing ticket offices, a very small number might be retained , in the short term.
Right to have rejected that offer. And right to not call off the strikes already announced ‘till it is improved.
But announcing extra Xmas strike dates at short notice, after everyone has had to adjust their plans to work around the existing Xmas strike dates? Hmm…
Don't see the big deal about ticket offices. They will be retained at major hubs. Anywhere else when there isn't a ticket office or it is closed I just get on and pay on the train. Buses seem to manage without a ticket office at every stop.
As for Sunday working. I've done it for decades as part of rosters. Part of working for any organisation that provides a 7 day a week service.
Driver only operation. Already used on some lines. Get on with it.
On train catering? A commercial decision. Not for the union to decide.
Driver only is fine til something- anything- goes wrong. That doesn't just mean crashes etc- though of course, it does mean crashes. But also people on the wrong train, medical emergencies people causing trouble, general perception of risk- driver-only is a big issue for vulnerable travellers. Or even as simple as advising people when there's delays. Things that happen literally every day. Ironically the more chaotic the railways the more essential this is- if we had a really efficient network, well coordinated and well run and well invested, then we'd need way less people.
irc
Full MemberDon’t see the big deal about ticket offices. They will be retained at major hubs. Anywhere else when there isn’t a ticket office or it is closed I just get on and pay on the train. Buses seem to manage without a ticket office at every stop.
No ticket offices is also fine til things go wrong. My train got cancelled while I was in London, it was the ticket office that fixed it all. I mean, yes that could be handled in different ways but you need some sort of information point and it might as well be selling tickets too. While I was in that one at euston, pretty much everyone I nosily eavesdropped on wasn't just buying a ticket for a simple journey, they were fixing problems. "Just get on the train" is fine when there's a train to get on.
I reckon "just get on the train" also sounds much less good to the elderly, vulnerable travellers, anyone who doesn't really speak english, young people, people who absolutely have to get to the right place on time without any fannying about, people who're worried about penalty fares etc. I'm usually happy to just jump on a train going in the right direction but that doesn't mean everyone can.
driver-only is a big issue for vulnerable travellers
Very true. Same goes for unmanned stations (which is what we are left with when ticket offices are closed).
no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?
nurses, etc getting 2% and the press playing that off against the 5% scotrail got,
Nurses in Scotland have been offered 5 - 11% depending on grade
This is in the context of the pretty much fixed budget that the Scottish government has. It can be done.
If we didn't have the absurd for profit franchising system for rail in England where huge amounts are taken out of the system to pay shareholders it would be easier to pay workers properly
@irc do you work on the railway? DOO get on with it?
I'm driver on a DOO line. In rush hour I can be driving a 12 car train with over a 1000 passengers on it. This train will be around 250 metres long and the driver has the sole responsible for the safety on board and the platform dispatch. It is not as safe as having a conductor on board who takes the responsibility for the platform dispatch away from the driver and provides another pair of eyes on board. DOO is there only to save money and cannot be as safe as having more crew on board. Now I have never driven anything other than DOO, but given the choice I'd have a conductor
It’s all gone too far for me now. Rail, Mail, Fire, health, Teachers and government workers all striking. Must be nice to demand a job you can’t be kicked out of with an in excess of 4% pay rise whilst us private workers can get a months notice (there are ways of getting rid of people even quicker) and are lucky if we get anything at all.
Of course, everyone would love ultimate job security and inflation covering wages especially for those that fully deserve it, but holding peoples health, safety and education at random whilst making sure you spoil Christmas for a lot of people starts to fell a little abhorrent to me. Personally is makes me angrier and less supportive of the strikers, which doesn’t help them.
Must be nice to demand a job you can’t be kicked out of with an in excess of 4% pay rise whilst us private workers can get a months notice (there are ways of getting rid of people even quicker
So they should all join you into a race to the bottom?
Always fun to see how the RMT is interpreting the new work offer.
Your job is secure for the next 2 years with back-dated pay rise and an additonal one-off payment, during which there will be an ongoing cost of living crisis and recession = " mass job severance programme"
Contracts allowing pro-rata part time = " Flexible working contracts, working and rosters" " Mandatory Sunday Working"
For the RMT, Flexible working and/or defined days working contracts (you know, like the rest of us have) is basically like Kryptonite to Superman/ Sunlight and Garlic to a Vampire because how are you then supposed to make extra money and still hold your employer to ransom?
And of course the whole " Privatisation is evil" " oh we're so poor and so hard done by" doesn't quite wash when you have train drivers in higher rate tax band. Yes, pre-privatisation the pay was shockingly low, it really isn't now and oh yes, thats been paid for by the taxpayer...
With all of his talk of "the workers support us" I do wonder if Mick Lynch is living in an Echo chamber.
BTW Im a long time rail commuter and have also worked in the rail supply industry (that was an eye-opener) which may influence my views a bit 😉
Yesterday I traveled to Glasgow.
The electric Ember bus there at 11am was properly packed (one spare seat), cost £5, took 35mins and dropped me at the back of the train station. The lady I sat next too had swapped to Ember as Scotrail is so unreliable.
The train home, because Ember was fully booked, at 5.40pm out of Glasgow cost me £10+ and took 58 minutes to get home. It was half empty, and yet was the Aberdeen express train.
Next weekend my father travels up from Warrington to Glasgow - for the first time every by bus not train. He can't trust Avanti West Coast who have cancelled on his last two trips up.
While I support better conditions and pay, I can't help but think the strikes on top of the woeful issues the railways pose to travellers is doing long term harm, threatening the future if the railways and everyone's jobs they want more pay for.
Private sector wages have risen faster than public service over the last few years on average
You want a race to the bottom? You didn't get a payrise so no one can get one?
Much of the impetus for these strikes does not come from wage demands anyway but froma desire to protect essential public services from death by a thousand tiny cuts
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<p class="ssrcss-1q0x1qg-Paragraph eq5iqo00">If you look at the total pay figures, which include bonuses, private sector pay has actually overtaken public sector.</p>
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<p class="ssrcss-1q0x1qg-Paragraph eq5iqo00">That's because private sector workers are much more likely to receive bonuses than public sector workers and bonuses have been relatively high this year, particularly in finance and business services.</p></div>
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900
You didn’t get a payrise so no one can get one?
You’ve just shown me a graph where average public sector wages are higher than private sector and expect me to be sympathetic?
I didn’t say they didn’t deserve one, I’m bemoaning the way they are going about it, I’ve seen some demands at 19% increase. Demanding impractical rises then holding the public to ransom to such an extent isn’t achieving anything other than frustration and anger at the strikers rather than the government paymasters they are aiming it at.
No issues with people getting a deserved pay rise, but there’s a point where it gets ridiculous.
Plenty of nurse and teacher jobs available Krypton and by plenty I mean an absolute shit ton of job vacancies that cannot be filled. I doubt that it pays enough for you though.
Personally is makes me angrier and less supportive of the strikers, which doesn’t help them.
I don't think you really grasp the point of strikes do you. Anyway calm yourself teachers are not on strike in England and nobody will spoil your lovely Christmas if you if plan a little
You’ve just shown me a graph where average public sector wages are higher than private sector and expect me to be sympathetic?
You also appear to have missed the "you want a race to the bottom" part of the post. The train strike is mainly about working conditions not pay. The proposals are aimed at gutting the service.
No issues with people getting a deserved pay rise, but there’s a point where it gets ridiculous.
Mine have been below inflation for at least ten years, how would you suggest I get what I deserve or what we need to attract people to fill the empty roles?
While I support better conditions and pay, I can’t help but think the strikes on top of the woeful issues the railways pose to travellers is doing long term harm, threatening the future if the railways and everyone’s jobs they want more pay for.
I think you are adding 1+1 to make 3 there.
The railways are woefully managed (last years timertable changes in the north were so bad as to apear like deleberate missmanagment) and a reasoable chunk of that is due to Government policy.
The rail workers are not any safer (in employment terms) if they just accept a shitty deal, in fact that just sets a presidence where the rail companies at the behest of the transport minister will accelerate bleeding them dry if they can weaken the unions oposition to any plans they want to impose.
Anyway calm yourself teachers are not on strike in England and nobody will spoil your lovely Christmas if you if plan a little
Yet. They are planned. No issues with my Xmas I’m not travelling, it’s those that are I feel for, plenty have missed their families in recent years.
Plenty of nurse and teacher jobs available Krypton and by plenty I mean an absolute shit ton of job vacancies that cannot be filled. I doubt that it pays enough for you though
Not sure why you feel the need to get personal.
Yet. They are planned.
My union hasn't voted yet
Not sure why you feel the need to get personal.
Why, when you spend endless hour agonising about what you spend you money on, the lastest BMW or whatever and then criticise nurses for going on strike? Give your head a wobble!
Lets take nursing as its what I know
Starting salary after a 4 year degree. £27,055 You will be working a shift pattern that is known to be damaging to health ( usually) 1 week in 4 on night shift and weekends / evenings / public holidays. Extra payments for shifts will add a couple of thousand to that and decent sick pay / holiday pay / pensions ( but not nearly as good as it used to be) Huge responsibilities and constant short staffed working
Do you think thats good wage and equivalent to a private sector wage for similar working conditions / responsibilities?
Wages have constantly been eroded and are now worth about 80% of what they were pre the tories taking over. Pensions and sick pay have also been cut
Why, when you spend endless hour agonising about what you spend you money on, the lastest BMW or whatever and then criticise nurses for going on strike? Give your head a wobble!
Maybe you should have noted my number plate when you saw the car, and read back over several years of forum history before you make aspersions. Nothing wrong with being spending time to decide to be appropriately frugal, I’m pretty confident I won’t be getting an inflation busting pay rise or job security that keeps me employed if I don’t make my numbers next year.
You’ve just shown me a graph where average public sector wages are higher than private sector and expect me to be sympathetic?
It doesnt show that once you take into account the relative skills etc (most of the low paid work in public sector having been outsourced which, after the management cuts are taken, result in even lower private sector wages for those workers). It does show however the continual cut in standards unless of course you feel those like for likes have changed?
I didn’t say they didn’t deserve one, I’m bemoaning the way they are going about it, I’ve seen some demands at 19% increase.
Given the rise in rental costs (ignoring all the others) I can see why some people would be wanting that. Odd how the tories only preach restraint for workers though isnt it? That aside havent you heard of start high?
As for the public sector doing well. Up to September it was 2.2% increase in the public sector vs 6.6 private sector.
Perhaps the strikes are happening due to the unwillingness of the government to negotiate honestly?
I’m pretty confident I won’t be getting an inflation busting pay rise or job security that keeps me employed if I don’t make my numbers next year.
100% confident I won't even if I do make my numbers, same as the last 10 years