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😕
surfer, you're taking it way too personally chap, I'm stopping now.
What I am amazed at is all the calling for evidence, as in this St results. We've all totally forgotten all the lessons of the LA saga and the whole basis of the Reasoned Decision?
In a criminal case witness testimony is as admissible and crucial as forensic or CCTV, but not in the Court of STW.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/33002464
I'd run a mile
She's not suggesting she'd spend very long running away then 😆
Hmm, I'm now starting to wonder why you're protesting about this so much
😯
What I am amazed at is all the calling for evidence
I know its a bloody pain isnt it!
In a criminal case witness testimony is as admissible and crucial as forensic or CCTV, but not in the Court of STW.
It hasnt gone too court
surfer, you're taking it way too personally chap
I'm not really 🙂
Don't forget the drugs in sportives !! Not sure why they are tested as we all know sportives are not races?
These things emerge into the light in stages, Mo Farah has been tainted by association now and if there is more dirt on him then there's a good chance it will be dug up over the next year or so.
As well as leading the way in anti-doping, cycling has also provided a legal and media template for big exposés like this - so perhaps we'll see athletes taking the Floyd Landis / Tyler Hamilton approach in the near future?
Not sure why they are tested as we all know sportives are not races?
You know that Gran Fondos are races in Europe and the US?
Not until I read the full article no I didn't ,I had remembered something about grand fondo`s and thought they were sportives as we have
Have Nike made any comment?
Is their slogan still "just do it"?
😀
Can someone do a search and replace using "Farah" and "Lance", "Salazar" and "Ferrari"?
The arguments from both sides seem strangely familiar.
We've seen testing doesn't work very well and can be avoided for years. Saying "but he's been tested loads of times" has been proven (with Lance) as irrelevant in a PED conversation. The USADA work was all done on testimony rather than physical evidence. It feels like we're at a Floyd Landis stage here with early testimony emerging.
Do I think athletics is riddled with PED use? Hell yes.
They should just be allowed to get on with it. You do everything you can to run, swim, rugbyerise or whatever as fast/violently as possible. That's what it's about.
What pisses me off is when the BBC make a mildly interesting programme and then fill the next 200 news programmes with the news they think they've just created.
Can someone do a search and replace using "Farah" and "Lance", "Salazar" and "Ferrari"?
😆 - I think that's the perspective a few of us are looking at this from. I wish being realistic didn't require being so cynical. Though I should point out that the jury hasn't even been sworn in yet on Farah - nothing like the level of evidence there was for LA even when most of us thought him innocent.
Certainly when all the evidence on LA hadn't come out and some still believed him innocent (where is hora?) I mentioned several times that Marion Jones had been tested loads of times and never failed - this is nothing new for athletics.
Just to remind those that keep bringing up the LA case, he did test positive. The sports governing body helped cover it up.
The is no longer a AAA, they went bust over the Diane Modal case.
actually no. He was identified as suspicious, the UCI then helped by explaining to LA and his team how to ensure that wouldn't lead to a positive test in the future. He never formally tested positive.
He did however get 'popped' by the bio passport on his return.
Marion Jones was using stuff that at the time was undetectable. LA was using stuff that was and he positive tested and it was well publised at the time.
Do we have any provable facts on the accused yet? No so lets get back to innuendo and pretend its news.
The is no longer a AAA, they went bust over the Diane Modal case.
[url= http://www.englandathletics.org/the-amateur-athletic-association# ]The AAA[/url]
Although I think its more recently known as "England Athletics"
[i]Can someone do a search and replace using "Farah" and "Lance", "Salazar" and "Ferrari"?[/i]
apparently not as:
[i]Thats rubbish.[/i]
because:
[i]Salazar has a reputation as one of the finest long distance coaches in the world [/i]
so, that's ok then 😕
Though I should point out that the jury hasn't even been sworn in yet on Farah - nothing like the level of evidence there was for LA
That pesky evidence thing again.
so, that's ok then
Its a good job you are not burdened with such concerns eh Nick 🙂
Do we have any provable facts on the accused yet?
He's probably using stuff which is undetectable at the moment 😈
(as was also the case for most of what LA was using - only made a mistake once IIRC)
[i]Its a good job you are not burdened with such concerns eh Nick[/i]
I don't have to be, WADA are looking into it for me...
I think the burden of proof doesn't really count for much on a thread of idle speculation TBH
Im surprised no one asked Nike for their view. If the allegations are true then it would appear that Nike have directly or indirectly funded it.
Nike probably don't care, they haven't ever shown much concern when previous athletes of theirs from various sports have been busted.
Anyone get the feeling that this Salazar thing is like the Balco case all over again, but this time with long distance runners?
Oh dear ....
Salazar was also close to his fellow Nike athlete Lance Armstrong, and paced him when he ran the New York marathon in 2006.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/04/mo-farah-five-questions-alberto-salazar-doping
Anyone get the feeling that this Salazar thing is like the Balco case all over again, but this time with long distance runners?
It might put them under some more scrutiny but the allegations are old and are going to be difficult to do much with beyond putting a bit of a black cloud up in the air.
Of course, if more information now comes to light that could change but for now...
Do we have any provable facts on the accused yet? No so lets get back to innuendo and pretend its news.
Yes we're in the court of STW / social media where guilt is assumed and then innocence has to be proven.
Not dissimilar to divorce courts then... 😈
This is part of Lance's legacy. History shows us that sometimes the rumour and innuendo is correct, despite all scientific evidence pointing to the contrary.
Do a little digging and you'll find that the Athletic's West the forerunner to the Oregon Project, which Salzar was also a member of have had a least 2 former members test or admit to testosterone use (one coached by Salzar at the time). There are also rumours of lectures on steroid and testosterone use at Athletics West back in the early 80's. Oh and in answer to the earlier query about Nike, apparently Nike knew about what was going on at Athletics West as it was their baby.
The whole thing sounds so familiar athlete uses drugs in career then goes on to coach and guess what suggests his athletes should take PEDs 👿
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_West ]Athletics West wiki[/url]
I'm not aware Salazar ever tested positive for drugs, did he? I think that Wiki just makes the standard Steroid allegation. Not sure anything really happened as a result unless you can tell me different?
It also refers to athletes such as Frank Shorter, Bill Rodgers and Craig Virgin. Some of the best athletes of the day. Mary Slaney is also refered to and she was a drugs cheat (and a whiney cow!)
As an athlete he was not hard to like, if like me you are old enough to remember when he was in his prime! His appetite for training was legendary and he was never the most graceful runner which made him look workmanlike and an underdog.
His appetite for training was legendary
Thats what the drugs do for you, they allow the user to train harder for longer and recover quicker, then repeat.
Lots of people seem to thing that nothing changes other than the drugs, but it is mainly all the extra training that they allow that makes the biggest difference.
No he didn't test positive but one of the athletes he coached did, and others on the Athletics West team have admitted to taking it while there. Plus they were apparently given lectures on the stuff. So you may give him the benefit of the doubt but the reality is he came through a system where it was common place, from that make up your own mind.
MSP +1
Thats what the drugs do for you, they allow the user to trail harder for longer and recover quicker
Yes we know that but lots of runners ran very high mileage and Dave Bedford was renowned for running over 200 MPW. Are we saying he was on drugs because he ran high mileage? I was making the point that Salazar was a hard trainer and you are using that as an indication that he was taking drugs when I could argue that the opposite is the case!
from that make up your own mind.
Thats not really the point I have been making throughout this thread. I understand there were allegations surrounding him and that makes me a little bit sad in a schoolboy hero type of way but its the way that these unproven allegations are bandied around as fact which is irritating.
Cant you see the difference between:
No he didn't test positive but one of the athletes he coached did
And
athlete uses drugs in career
I would take the fact that someone is able to train a lot harder than all the other world class athletes they compete against as pretty suspicious. That was always part of the Armstrong myth.
The reality is over the past 50 years, the clean athletes have been the exception, not the dirty ones.
The reality is over the past 50 years, the clean athletes have been the exception, not the dirty ones.
I suppose it would be silly to ask for evidence for such a ridiculous statement
I would take the fact that someone is able to train a lot harder than all the other world class athletes they compete against as pretty suspicious.
Well you may be mixing up "mileage" with "hard" but leaving that aside have you ever trained with any top class runners? By that I mean international standard?
I'd be surprised if there are any elite athletic T&F types who haven't/don't take naughty. The think that made me laugh a little was the apparent outrage that some british and/or american athletes may have taken PEDs and the complete disregard of the eastern europeans' (mainly
russian) PED programme which was not just integral to their programme, it was government instigated and highly likely still is.
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Interestingly enough Wrecker one of the most notable periods of improvement was almost single handedly down to Haile Gebrselassie who was responsible for knocking 30 seconds off it !!!
I dont think his name has ever been associated with cheating? Not saying for one minute that some of those athletes didnt cheat but given what Haile did I am not sure it is saying what you think it is?
Also 10000m running only became global around the mid 70's when the African nations came to the fore.
Edit: In fact its wrong. Where did you get it from?
Edit: In fact its wrong. Where did you get it from?
Dragged it from some refutable source 🙂 It's not a million miles out though is it?
My broader point is that there is too much at stake now. The careers of the participants is a very minor part of it. Rich people getting richer is the main thing. FIFA is a good example, as are the fortunes of companies like Nike as seen here.
When people stand to gain or lose significant sums of money, there will always be cheating. I think sport is less about skill and human endeavor and more about entertainment (and profitability) now.
Well basically its says that 2000 and 2001 where baron years for 10000m running and that may be for a number of reasons.
What is significant is the fact that Haile and the Kenyan/Ethiopian rivalry had really pushed the boundaries of what was achievable up to 98 and it was not until Bekele came along in 2004 that it was forced down further. I dont think there is any controversy surrounding him?
From 1993 to 2005, a time period that we know drugs were rife in the peleton and unfortunately become the norm for professional cycling, the 10,000 metre running record was reduced by a massive 50 seconds.
If you believe that distance running was somehow different to cycling in that period you are believing in fairytales.
As I said that 50 seconds was down to 2 men. Neither of who as far as I am aware have been accused (in any credible way) to doping.
So unlike all of the athletes involved in drug taking in the peleton that (even after significant delays) have largely all been found out. Why after over 22 years has passed has nothing of significance come out about those 2?
Bear in mind the 10000m record for non African runners remained relatively static between 89 and 2010. If drugs were the reason for this massive progression then why was this the case? Also blood doping was well known about during the 70's and 80's. Also Ron Clarke reduced the WR by 39 seconds single handedly in 2 years! Maybe he was doping as well?
What explains the 6 year period where no one broke it then?
Or the 6 year period where only one person broke it [ twice]
Bad drugs?
FWIW Haile Gebrselassie got circa 10 seconds faster every 2-3 years ish..or 0.08 seconds per lap faster
Not outlandish gains and just because people in one sport cheated its not actually proof people in another sport cheated
TBH why have I had to write that ?
DO you have any proof any of the athletes cheated?
Perhaps they just got lucky as everyone was looking at the 100 m
Come on Noones going to win a your sport is shittier than my sport between athletics and cycling. We both are catching some, still embarrassed by others, have some people doing it the right way and we all hope we will end up clean one day but are under no illusions. Footballs the freak show we should both be pointing at.
just because people in one sport cheated its not actually proof people in another sport cheated
It stretches believability to beyond breaking point to think that cycling was somehow isolated in its moral vacuum.
America has been quite successful in taking down some of their biggest name athletes, quite a few never even failed a drugs test. Because they decided to follow the doubt, go after them and find the evidence.
The IAAF didn't do it, or the Olympics, it took their home country to do something few if any other country would ever contemplate.
[i]What is significant is the fact that Haile and the Kenyan/Ethiopian rivalry had really pushed the boundaries of what was achievable[/i]
Kenyan middle distance running has been suspect for years...
[i]John Fahey, president of the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada), said there was a "cloud hanging over them". He said: "For some time, we have been very concerned about the accusations of doping there," going on to describe Kenya as "a location of choice for dopers".
There is no Kenyan anti-doping agency and just one laboratory for that purpose in the whole of the continent – based in South Africa.[/i]
There is no Kenyan anti-doping agency and just one laboratory for that purpose in the whole of the continent – based in South Africa.
I think its fair to assume they are tested when they race abroad.
[i]I think its fair to assume they are tested when they race abroad.[/i]
I think it's been long established that current drugs testing won't catch anyone with half a brain.
EPO's "glow" time is 2-3 days and it time of effectiveness in the body is 15-20days.
And it isn't as if using PED's while training has any impact is it? They only work when racing 🙄
It stretches believability to beyond breaking point to think that cycling was somehow isolated in its moral vacuum
Well we know this is true because , for example, they caught lots of 100 m runners. However, to repeat myself here, [b]just because athletes in one sport cheated its not actually proof athletes in another sport cheated[/b]
Did we get an explanation for 6 year failure to break it?
Did we get an explanation for 6 year failure to break it?
Do you need an explanation that a record set with the aid of PED's can be as hard or as easy to break as one set without. You seem to think that question proves your point, it proves nothing other than a record stood for 6 years.
just because athletes in one sport cheated its not actually proof athletes in another sport cheated
I didn't say it was proof, I said it is unbelievable. Two sports with similar demands that would benefit from the same PED's, both see incredible advances, one is known to be dirty, you would have to really really want to put your fingers in your ears and shout lalala to believe the other was clean.
I think it's been long established that current drugs testing won't catch anyone with half a brain.
Then the fact that the African continent only has one agency matters not one bit.
it time of effectiveness in the body is 15-20days.
Yes and it can be traced in post event testing.
You seem to think that question proves your point
I think it weakens your point
I dont need proof as you cannot prove your point you can only use extreme hyperbole and weak caricature to suggest that anyone who may have different view you from you is going "lala"
TBH if hyperbole one arguments you would be doing great as it is we just have you have two independent events and you think they prove something.
FWIW if you look at the record you will seep leaps in the time of a similar magnitude in similar time frames. I bet this jut makes you think they going always cheated rather than reconsider and of course anyone who disagrees is going "lala"
Amusing and a pointless debate as its not me going lalala and ignoring the absence of proof.
[quote=surfer ]I'm not aware Salazar ever tested positive for drugs, did he?
Just like Marion Jones (I can see that becoming a meme for me again), and depending on your definition of testing positive, just like LA.
Meanwhile, doper Gatlin just keeps on winning and posting excellent times.
Twice caught and still cheating
Amazing how he has posted faster times as he ages and as he runs clean
Either something is not right here or PEDS are really rubbish.
MSP you can have your lalala argument on this one 😀
Did you hear his interview on 5live pre race
What a ****
And in other news the [url= http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/06/news/uci-and-wada-drop-cas-appeal-in-kreuziger-case_372770 ]Kreuziger case gets dropped at the 11th hour[/url].
Quite surprised really. I was pretty sure he was going to get a ban. Be interested to know what new information came to light at this stage. Maybe the UCI decided they didn't want to risk a CAS verdict against the bio passport?
I'd be surprised if there are any elite athletic T&F types who haven't/don't take naughty.
This phrase has been running through my head on this morning's run. It's been bothering me, I understand the sentiment and where you're coming from but think you're very wrong.
I'm strictly at the donkey end of club runner spectrum but you're still basically slurring a lot of people I rub shoulders with and some of whom I'm proud to call mates. People who competed at County up to International level and right at the top Olympic and Commonwealths.
Where are you drawing this line? People who improve too fast for your liking, people who get their England vest a little too easily? Or is it just say the Top 10 in a discipline? World Record holders?
Once you start spraying mud that broadly, there's a lot of collateral damage and your denigrating the hard work of a lot of people who've worked their nuts of to get where they are.
[url= http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/dark-cloud-of-doping-hanging-over-kenyan-athletics-1.1996620 ]Irish Times Article [/url]
[url= http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4223089 ]Thread with list by country, numbers of banned athletes[/url]
In the same way that I'm sceptical when I read Astana and Doping in a headline, when certain countries do well outside expectations in Athletes, I personally think it's probably fake. Which is pretty sad, when you think about it, but when there's so much money in sponsorship these days I'm not alone in thinking it I reckon.
Money + Sport = cheating.
Ross Tucker slaying Farah on Twitter
@scienceofsport
Aye where theres money/sponsorship to be made the top finishers will always be tainted. Im really sceptical post-Lance.
Sprinters who look like they could enter body building contests, etc etc.
Rugby, what other sports are there?
If people like Mo are top of their game clean then they are truly unique in our species against those who are talented/one of the best, then dope ontop.
surfer - Member
I think it's been long established that current drugs testing won't catch anyone with half a brain.
Then the fact that the African continent only has one agency matters not one bit.
it time of effectiveness in the body is 15-20days.
Yes and it can be traced in post event testing.
First point: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/16/kenyan-epo-tv-documentary-wada
Second: watch the original Panorama investigation, available on iPlayer. EPO use not detected for purposes of blood 'passport'.
To get to the top really doesn't require a lot more than a good diet, very hard structured training and good conditioning. Most top athletes know what training to do, and there is little more a coach can add. It's not rocket science! Why on earth would an athlete associate with a coach whom many are alleging illicit practice? Hmm I wonder...
It's just like Armstong/ Ferrari.
To get to the top really doesn't require a lot more than a good diet, very hard structured training and good conditioning.
Bullshit, if that was true then you should be able to pick anyone at random off the street and they would be able to compete and win at international levels.
Right. So the only point of coaches is to act as pharmacist? Nice broad brush slur.
Bullshit, if that was true then you should be able to pick anyone at random off the street and they would be able to compete and win at international levels.
Utterly, totally and completely agree. Did the fast kids at school get training? No, they were just fast. Or strong, or good at jumping or throwing or swimming or kicking or sliding or riding....
EPO use not detected for purposes of blood 'passport'.
As long as the cheat dopes below known levels.
And is not detectable out of its "glow time" despite surfers claims. Which means that the only likely way to catch someone using it is through random out of competition testing, and that is rather dependent on the national anti doping agencies ability and willingness to test [b]and[/b] prosecute accordingly.
And rather like recreational drugs (bath salts) with new "performance peptides" there is a bit of a battle going on between chemists and the doping laws.
Who was the female British Athlete who 'forgot' to attend 2-3 tests?
To put the missed tests in perspective- if yours or my job/pay cheque depending on tests you'd be there. To miss 1 is bad luck, to miss two? You'd be bricking it with the missed first if you were genuine.
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Who was the female British Athlete who 'forgot' to attend 2-3 tests?
Christine Ohourogu (sp?)
You seem to think it was done accidentally on purpose. Can you tell us how you know this? Your infallible spidey sense?
Three times. Just bad luck I guess.
Cheers binners, just snotted a proper 'number 11' when I saw Rio giving the thumbs up.
Or a faulty doorbell, according to MoFa.
If only they had a more robust system...
All I could think of when I heard that he 'hadn't heard the doorbell' was Tyler Hamiltons admission in his book that they used to hide behind the sofa when the testers came knocking.
I [u]really[/u] hope he's clean...
This news report from a couple of years back makes interesting reading in light of recent developments:
I really hope he's clean, I really do. But, I've seen far too many sports people prove to be dopers to be overly surprised if he's not.
Being brutal, he did seem to turn from a good but not great distance athlete to a world beater. Now this could be training, it could be others losing speed, a new coach or it could be something else, we don't know. In fact, you can add Froome into this train of thought as well...
There is a fear that the systemised culture of doping within cycling, as starkly revealed by the Lance Armstrong US Anti-Doping Agency dossier, has spread to track and field.
Haha, this amused me. As if somehow cycling is the root of doping and it's not been in athletics all along! 🙂
Froome into this train of thought as well
Froome rode for years with bilharzia and started winning once healthy
FFS look at Berties and Nibbles at Astana for the smoke in cycling at the moment