[Closed] There's no smoke without.....Farah?

their is not even an allegation that Mo doped it is all about the institution

Granted its suspicious but they clearly have no evidence or witness to claim Mo has doped never mind a guilty decision

"Wells denies the allegations and insists hard work and new training methods at the time were the secret to his success" 😆

....so spread on number of nice homegrown (white?) athletes on BBC1 tonight at 21:00. Ok jenks aside (long memories)

0 - 2 ?

Any golden girls or boys or are we all clean?

Oh well, kicks off with one. Stromba Wells - really? Will we get any golden girls?

Allegations made about the goings on between a top athletics coach and his number 2 athlete. Yep, nothing suspect there.. at... all...

Just look at the number of Jamaican sprinters on the juice. Of course, it's far easier to go after ancient(ish) history rather than look at the present.

At a time when Gatlin and co are still allowed to run, and post frankly astonishing times, after drugs bans, surely it would be better to focus such efforts on now, not then.

So the passport system gets busted by a DIY doper on Internet gear, not surprising the pro dopers with their in house sports science teams can get those incremental gains and an "all clear" from the testers 😕

Wow, this is dynamite

depressing 😐

EPO test very interesting. 7% gain from a little use (smug though my vo2 max was still greater than the epo'd journo...)

Very dodgy ground. No direct evidence and plenty of innuendo, despite the statement to camera at the end suggesting they weren't accusing Mo of anything. How that got lawyered I have no idea.

I was unlucky enough to have Alan,and even worse Margo Wells as fitness coaches at London Scottish rugby. Fantastic the pair of them,in a brutal 100% focussed way.

I'll bet you're glad that was in a clean sport like rugby then.

They should all be allowed to use drugs to see how far they can push human mutation in sport.

A bit like seeing Marvel comics in real with bulky muscle and the like then keep track of their health condition throughout their lives.

They should have several categories of similar sport like for heavy doping category, light and clean etc.

Bunch of bloody zombie entertainers they are ...

🙄

I'm going back to snowboarding and kitrsurfing....

bbc1... distance running finally outted and on bbc2 Tough Mudder sados

[quote=martinhutch ]Very dodgy ground. No direct evidence and plenty of innuendo, despite the statement to camera at the end suggesting they weren't accusing Mo of anything. How that got lawyered I have no idea.

Do you think they should have avoided mentioning Mo at all and just left the suspicion hanging? Not sure how else to report all the evidence they did have, and they made it as clear as they possibly could that there was no evidence at all of Mo doping.

[quote=Ro5ey ]I'm going back to snowboarding and kitrsurfing....

Hmm http://www.usada.org/category/sanction/snowboarding/

This is no surprise to me. It's common knowledge that Salazar has negotiated all sorts of TUIs (therapeutic use exemptions) for thyroid and asthma drugs for his athletes for many years.

Sadly, there's more smoke around Mo.
[img] [/img]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/mo-farah-risks-iaaf-questions-after-appearing-in-ethiopian-training-camp-with-banned-drugs-cheat-hamza-driouch-10077232.html ]Mo Farah could face questions from the IAAF after appearing in pictures taken during a recent training camp in Ethiopia with shamed drug cheat Hamza Driouch.

Farah was taking part in a seven-week training camp at the start of the year before he returned to competitive action in Birmingham last weekend, breaking the indoor two-mile world record in the process. However, in updating his fans with regular posts and photographs from the camp, he revealed that one of those with him in Africa was Driouch, who is currently serving a two-year ban from competition.

[/url]

it cant be true. only cyclists take drugs and anyway British athletes never test positive

Thoroughly depressing I agree. Whether Farrah is or not, what it shows is that most top level sport is quite frankly a farce now. You don't know who (if any) are straight.

midlifecrashes - Member
I'll bet you're glad that was in a clean sport like rugby then

They should have several categories of similar sport like for heavy doping category, light and clean etc.

Which still wouldn't work as you'd get doping athletes competing in the clean category.

So someone banned from competing isn't allowed to train? Don't go to that camp Mo, that's where the bad boys go.

FFS, last I checked being near someone isn't enough to get doped.

FFS, last I checked being near someone isn't enough to get doped.

...and arguably a 'relaxed' attitude to doping akin to a politician socialising with dodgy business men.

Good comparison, and it's not just socialising but being under their guidance on a daily basis - Go Mo, Go...

duckman - Member
midlifecrashes - Member
I'll bet you're glad that was in a clean sport like rugby then

Well in an amateur sport in the 90's I averaged more than one test a season and two players were tested every week,but don't let that stop you.

I'll just leave this here. http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/

Most of those currently serving a ban are from either code of the oval ball game.

#microdose

I'm not going to defend Farah, I do not know anything about it, and I can't say I have any patriotic attachment/love for him or his achievemnets.

But in defence of good thinking, I would like to say I despise the phrase "there is no smoke without fire" . What utter horseshit, it is used by peiople to make accusations without any evidence and justify their own prejudice. It is the vilest street gossip and whispering.

Show me actual evidence, not circumstantial or any other weasel word bollocks, then we can accuse an athelete. Meanwhile-stick to the facts.

Do you think they should have avoided mentioning Mo at all and just left the suspicion hanging? Not sure how else to report all the evidence they did have, and they made it as clear as they possibly could that there was no evidence at all of Mo doping.

The thread title is a perfect illustration of the innuendo that a British viewer would be expected to draw from the content of the documentary.

Plenty of decent pieces of investigative journalism never see the light of day because there isn't quite enough evidence to get them to the point where they could be proven in a libel case.

You don't just have to potentially prove a straight allegation of wrongdoing, but also any innuendo of wrongdoing you create with your reporting.

In the context of the Alan Wells material and the discussion of microdosing leading up to the Salazar segment, there is IMO clear innuendo aimed at Mo in a prime time programme aimed squarely at a British audience who for the most part will never have heard of Jupp or Salazar.

If the BBC were asked in court to prove the allegation within the innuendo, the arse-covering statement at the end about 'no evidence' will not cut the mustard. They will have to prove something for which they, at best, have only 'guilt by association' evidence, which is fundamentally worthless.

hmmm, my take on the Mo thing was that's it's an athlete's responsibility to make sure he's training and living in a world that as far removed from PEDs as far as is possible. Salazar has some questions to answer. If I were Mo I'd be releasing press saying "I'm removing myself from this environment until it's proved/not proved"

If he doesn't, then to my eyes that's analogous to Armstrong/Ferrari.

But in defence of good thinking, I would like to say I despise the phrase "there is no smoke without fire"

So will Mo Farrah be referred to as a Somalian now to distance him from UK athletics ?

[i]Show me actual evidence[/i]

There was, People witnessed him using Testosterone Cream, and Salazar was coaching Galen Rupp, and making sure he was taking PEDs at 16.

If I was a bit of a bigoted old fart, who's not racist but...I'd probably have always thought of him as Somalian and not a proper Brit.

I do think its quite naïve to think a clean athlete at the top of the sport can beat a cheating one - especially with all the experts helping them cheat.

People witnessed him using Testosterone Cream

Show me actual evidence, not circumstantial or any other weasel word bollocks, then we can accuse an athelete.

Trouble is, Lance Armstrong kept going strong on that for years. First, he wasn't seeing Michele Ferrari. Then he was, but just for vitamins. Dr Celaya got replaced as doctor by Dr Del Moral because Del Moral was better at "nutrition" or whatever.

There wasn't any "actual evidence" that Armstrong was doping for a decade after David Walsh first insinuated there was a problem: just lots and lots of circumstantial evidence that, looking back, looks pretty damning.

🙁

Farah was completely out of sorts upto 2010, then he joined up with Salazar and there was a remarkable improvement in his performances. This can happen just as an athlete hits form naturally, but the Salazar connection is worrying.

"I'm removing myself from this environment until it's proved/not proved"

If he doesn't, then to my eyes that's analogous to Armstrong/Ferrari.

Thats rubbish. Salazar has a reputation as one of the finest long distance coaches in the world and his reputation as an athlete is incredible. I grew up watching and reading about him he was formidable. Should he give that up at this stage on hearsay?

http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=482

martinhutch - Member

Very dodgy ground. No direct evidence and plenty of innuendo, despite the statement to camera at the end suggesting they weren't accusing Mo of anything. How that got lawyered I have no idea.

Public interest, presumably? - arguable that the inisinuation is offset by the public interest element, and that the final statement is enough to distance MF from the allegations... (IANAlibelL)

[i]Should he give that up at this stage on hearsay?[/i]

Yes, in my eyes how else would you remain credible?

Any athlete that chooses to remain with a coach while that coach has a WADA investigation hanging over him, and witness testimony citing examples of suspect behaviour, is himself suspect.

This is where you look to analyse Mo Farrah`s performance

Yes, in my eyes how else would you remain credible?

I have no idea your prejudices are yours alone.

This is where you look to analyse Mo Farrah`s performance

yes the Power of 10 website covers everything. His times at 3k and 5k were very impressive pre 2010 and I thinl only Moorcroft (ex world record) was faster over 5k so it did point to something special. He was also focusing up to then on 1500 and remember he is staggeringly fast over 1500, IIRC around 3:28.
Its possibly not unreasonable to see the improvement from their.

[i]I have no idea your prejudices are yours alone.[/i]

Fair enough, I've chosen to take the view that where PEDS are concerned, there's often lack of physical evidence (witness Armstrong et. al., and the presenter last night demonstrating micro-dosing) and that witness testimony is pretty much all you'll get. (again Armstrong et. al.)

Those witnesses last night seemed on the face of it to be pretty credible, certainly they provided enough credibility for WADA to announce that they'd be investigating Salazar on a telly documentary. Based on that, if I were Mo, I'd be making sure I was distancing myself from it as far as I could.

Surfer, I would suggest you are a little naive.

Salazar has a reputation as one of the finest long distance coaches in the world

This is true, and I would imagine most (if not all) of what he does is entirely above board but if any of what is being claimed (by folks pretty embedded in his camp) sticks you will need to change the tense of your above statement from 'has' to 'had'.

If Farah and his advisors have any sense he will distance himself from Salazar and all athletes with a PED reputation both to protect his legacy as well as his current commercial worth.

Based on that, if I were Mo, I'd be making sure I was distancing myself from it as far as I could.

Refer you to my earlier post. Salazar is one of the best coaches in the world. Farah will want to stay within that team for as long as he possibly can. Also whats to stop the *guilty by association* following him around. The next story may be:

"A" must be doping his athletes because he coaches Farah and Farah was previously coached by..........

Cant you see how ridiculous your argument is?

What I took from last night's documentary is that there is a lot of fear/pressure piled on the Salazar athletes in terms of protecting the programme. If you were doping, then there's no way you would distance yourself from the coach, as he and the medical staff would have evidence of that doping.
I'm 50/50 on Farah being innocent, at the time of the London Olympics I remember being surprised by his kick in the last stretch, and the fact that he didn't look very tired after (I'd seen him finish 7th two years before and he was absolutely shattered).

This is true, and I would imagine most (if not all) of what he does is entirely above board but if any of what is being claimed (by folks pretty embedded in his camp) sticks you will need to change the tense of your above statement from 'has' to 'had'

Why because you have a feeling in your water? If that "sticks" then of course I will. It sounds like it has already "stuck" with a few on here.
Call me old fashioned but I would be interested in seeing something more than allegations. Let the process run its course then lets see. I am sure given the profile it will be investigated rigorously and quickly.

I remember being surprised by his kick in the last stretch, and the fact that he didn't look very tired after (I'd seen him finish 7th two years before and he was absolutely shattered).

Bang to rights 🙄

There is some utter bollox written on this thread.

Evidence is the only way forward. Rumour and innuendo is for the small of mind, those that have never achieved anything by hardwork and daily mail readers (or the BBC it would now seem).

Can't help but feel an under current of racism here. Now that may is an innuendo but thats what some seem to be.

[i]Refer you to my earlier post. Salazar is one of the best coaches in the world. Farah will want to stay within that team for as long as he possibly can[/i]

Even if there is witness testimony and written evidence of banned substances being used? Enough to spur WADA into announcing they would launch an investigation?

As convert has pointed out Mo has a reputation and a legacy to protect.

Call me old fashioned but I would be interested in seeing something more than allegations. Let the process run its course then lets see. I am sure given the profile it will be investigated rigorously and quickly.

For Salazar's sake I hope absolutely that a proper process is followed but I think in the real world that is almost irrelevant for Farah. He only has one career and very few years left of it. He simply can't hang around for the process to go through without spending the last years of his career tarnish by association. You say [i]'Farah will want to stay within that team for as long as he possibly can'[/i] - I think that time is probably now. Athletes are not stupid and unless the folk from Salazar's camp who appeared last night are just making it up he would have heard the same rumours years ago too. I just hope he knows what he is doing for his sake.

As convert has pointed out Mo has a reputation and a legacy to protect.

A blind man on a galloping horse would have noted that he is the double world and Olympic 5/10k champion but I am grateful for you highlighting it.
The fact that there is now and "investigation" means that he hasnt been found guilty of anything yet. I agree with MT on this (although not making any racism claims)

but I think in the real world that is almost irrelevant for Farah

Yes its disappointing that people are guided by inuendo and prejudice. Daily Mail influence I suppose.

Rumour and innuendo is for the small of mind, those that have never achieved anything

You elevate sport too highly - at the end of the day professional sport is entertainment for the masses, paid for by endorsements intended to appeal to the masses. Those are the small minded who have never achieved anything masses. Rightly or wrongly the court of public opinion matters and reputation is everything. The law barely registers.

Can't help but feel an under current of racism here.

Wow, just wow!

watching it last night, i couldn't help comparing these, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Daily Mail influence I suppose.

I was wondering how long before the old Daily Fail/Daily Hate accusations came into this. Sooner than I thought!

If anyone wants to shut down a debate on this forum, then calling your opponent a Daily Mail reader seems a tried and tested method!

It's similar to the strategies used by the early Bolsheviks, who used to label anyone who disagreed with them as mentally ill.

[i]Yes its disappointing that people are guided by inuendo and prejudice. Daily Mail influence I suppose.[/i]

Yes, best to resort to sly insults I guess. 🙄

I don't want Farah to be on PEDS, I don't want Salazar to be peddling drugs to 16yr old Athletes, but here's the thing, time and again the world of sports have demonstrated that they take drugs if they think they can get away with it, and time and again journalists expose it, and time and again it's often as not the journalists that are right.

That's my prejudice these days.

Plenty of decent pieces of investigative journalism never see the light of day because there isn't quite enough evidence to get them to the point where they could be proven in a libel case.

You don't just have to potentially prove a straight allegation of wrongdoing, but also any innuendo of wrongdoing you create with your reporting.

You keep writing "prove". Yet you're talking about libel which is civil law, and beyond reasonable doubt isn't required. In this case there appears to be significant evidence of wrongdoing, which they presumably are confident enough they're not going to be sued about. You're suggesting they should avoid reporting on this because of the implications people will make? I'd suggest there's a significant difference between this and tweeting "XXXX trending, makes you think". Not least that there's a fair comment and public interest defence. Anyway I don't suppose Mo particularly wants to go to court to try and argue balance of probabilities of the implications being untrue.

It's similar to the strategies used by the early Bolsheviks, who used to label anyone who disagreed with them as mentally ill.

Yes you are right, its almost one and the same.

Salazar [s]is one of the best coaches[/s] coaches some of the best athletes in the world.

The question is why they are some of the best athletes, and hence he is considered to be a top coach.

Can't help but feel an under current of racism here.

Yeah, everybody seems to assume that a white boy like Rupp must be on stuff because otherwise he'd be inferior due to his race.

time and again the world of sports have demonstrated that they take drugs if they think they can get away with it, and time and again journalists expose it, and time and again it's often as not the journalists that are right.

You are including a lot when you use the term "world of sports" as an athlete (in the loosest sense of the term) do you include me in that statement?

Am really sorry about the racist innuendo but there's no smoke without fire.

Just being on this thread means we are now all tainted, perhaps we should leave.

[i]do you include me in that statement?[/i]

what? 😯

The question is why they are some of the best athletes, and hence he is considered to be a top coach.

Cause and effect isnt it? He has a fantastic CV as and athlete as I mentioned before so its not beyond the realms of possibility that his athletes perform under his guidance. He has had significant funding from Nike which helps and this becomes attractive to other up and coming athletes so he attracts the best and so on. I am sure their is a high "wastage" figure but we dont get to see that.

Yeah, everybody seems to assume that a white boy like Rupp must be on stuff because otherwise he'd be inferior due to his race.

😀

Yes, the racism comment did render most the rest of what his said turgid by association.

Yes, the racism comment did render most the rest of what his said turgid by association.

I dont agree with that statement but to be fair I think it may be related to the rumbling debate about Farah being from Somalia etc which occasionally raises its head.

You are including a lot when you use the term "world of sports" as an athlete (in the loosest sense of the term) do you include me in that statement?

Would it help if he dropped the word "professional" in there? It was kind of implied, as I don't suppose the journos will be particularly interested in your Vicks consumption. Of course there is also doping at the higher levels of amateur sport, but it's the professional world where there are more obvious benefits which seem to justify the risks, an issue which appears to run through all sports.

journos will be particularly interested in your Vicks consumption

I suspect you are right however as a member of a AAA registered athletic club I adhere to the same rules. The point is that on this thread a number of regular posters are happy to suspend the (generally) intelligent, objective and evidence based standards of argument to throw stones based on little evidence.

Doping in pro sports goes back to pre-1900. I can't believe anyone who wins at world level in athletics, not Farah, not Bolt, not Rudisha etc. Athletics is riddled with the stuff in the same way cycling was/is.

This was from December:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11285428/Revealed-how-Olympic-champions-three-Britons-and-39-countries-have-been-dragged-into-doping-scandal.html ]Telegraph IAAF Doping allegations[/url]

The by association thing has an interesting parallel in my previous sport, triathlon. Just as I was giving up Chrissie Wellington started taking the world by storm but controversially chose [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Sutton#Sex_offences ]Brett Sutton[/url] as her coach. Whilst no PEDs allegations around his camp (well not much 😉 ) Sutton is a convicted sex offender after having had a sexual relationship with one of his 14yr old charges. He was banned for life from working in his native Australia and banned from attending competitions around the globe. He setup a rather controversial camp in Europe not associated to any national sport governing bodies. Athletes who have chosen to work with him have constantly had their judgment called into question and to a certain extent their reputation tarnished even though they were clearly nothing to do with his offences. It kind of proves that even if you personally are not implicated, your judgment of who you associate with as a professional sportsperson is seen as important.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/33002464

[i]I suspect you are right however as a member of a AAA registered athletic club[/i]

as am I, and UK athletics registered. I don't take drugs BTW

If it helps, I meant 'professional' but then you knew that, right? How would I include you? I couldn't possibly know you're involved in sports, professional or otherwise, could I?

Thing is, it's not "little evidence" is it? Written evidence of testosterone use, and witness statements from former Athletes, which as others and I have pointed out, is exactly the same story we hear time and again:

Journalists uncover uncomfortable testimony, every-one involved denies it, and several years later, finally admit to it.

same old story

I hope Mo Farah knows what he's doing, that's all.

I don't take drugs BTW

Why should anyone believe you? After all Farah denies it and he is tested regularly.

I meant 'professional' but then you knew that, right?

Yes of course and I explained why I made the point.

Journalists uncover uncomfortable testimony, every-one involved denies it, and several years later, finally admit to it.

Then the issue is largely "several years later" and we shouldn't just remove the "process" because it takes too long. Would you advocate that for any other "crime"?

How would I include you? I couldn't possibly know you're involved in sports, professional or otherwise, could I?

I think I see what you did there.

Then the issue is largely "several years later" and we shouldn't just remove the "process" because it takes too long. Would you advocate that for any other "crime"?

And as I said, Farah only has 'several years' - should he spend them under the inevitable (and it is inevitable) cloud with Salazar? As I think you said before, by that score he might take the reputation with him but by leaving he is at least showing intent.

I suspect you are right however as a member of a AAA registered athletic club I adhere to the same rules.

I've competed at a sufficiently high level to be at events where testing has taken place (and I don't mean in the running the London Marathon sense), though never close enough to the sharp end to be tested myself, and ISTR at some point having to sign something related to drug testing. However I think nickc was making a pretty valid point - there's plenty enough evidence of the prevalence of PEDs in all [b]professional[/b] sports to make any implications like this plausible. Which is sad.

I'm still assuming that amateur level sports, even at fairly high level are mostly clean. Though I have to admit to having thoughts myself when contemplating taking part in a high altitude event where other people would have been able to spend weeks acclimatising - I don't suppose it's something I could have ever done, but it certainly felt justifiable from the perspective of levelling the playing field. Most relevantly to this discussion though I was confident about not getting caught, something which I'm sure plays a big part to people for whom taking PEDs might earn them millions more than if they competed clean.

Why should anyone believe you? After all Farah denies it and he is tested regularly.

Hmm, I'm now starting to wonder why you're protesting about this so much 😈