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Doubt it, you have to be a bit of a tool to read GQ.
I reckon the front cover of this months GQ must be causing some sleepless night on STW lol.
Do you lol.
I dunno, stuff like peace, freedom, fairness, law and order. It’s a much better country than most for all its flaws.
While it's good to appreciate stuff like that it doesn't make us particularly special, certainly in Europe we are probably behind several nations on most if not all of those measures.
What a dull, dismal, frightened little people you have become.
Scared to wave a flag, scared to cheer a team, scared to show allegiance in case someone, somewhere takes offence.
The chattering classes indeed.
While it’s good to appreciate stuff like that it doesn’t make us particularly special, certainly in Europe we are probably behind several nations on most if not all of those measures.
Do you have to be special to love your country?
Do you get uptight about, say, Greek people being proud to be Greek?
It only seems to be the English who torture themselves like this.
I think it’s weird.
What a dull, dismal, frightened little people you have become.
Scared to wave a flag, scared to cheer a team, scared to show allegiance in case someone, somewhere takes offence.The chattering classes indeed
How desperate for an argument are you?
What a dull, dismal, frightened little people you have become.
U ok hun?
Do you get uptight about, say, Greek people being proud to be Greek?
It only seems to be the English who torture themselves like this.
I think it’s weird.
I know nothing about Greek nationalism but those Golden Dawn fellas didn't sound too nice.
We've spent hundreds of years going around the world invading countries justified by our supposed superiority, so I think it's understandable that some people are rather wary of British chauvinism.
I think it's weird to take pride in stuff that you had no part in, each to their own I guess.
Do you have to be special to love your country?
Let's check - no-one's said that...
Do you get uptight about, say, Greek people being proud to be Greek?
... no-one's suggested that, and...
It only seems to be the English who torture themselves like this.
I think it’s weird.
... no-one's torturing themselves. Contorting themselves, to try and provoke an argument, yes there's a bit of that going on, but that's about it.
brads
Full MemberI reckon the front cover of this months GQ must be causing some sleepless night on STW lol.
maybe you do, people imagine all sorts of weird stuff.
HAHA couldn’t have put it better!
You cannot simultaneously be proud of your country's historical good bits (that you had no part in) whilst rejecting its bad bits (that you had no part in) on the same grounds. You can totally go "wasn't me" or alternatively you can acknowledge that history actually happened, but cherry-picking is monumentally hypocritical.
I would love to see Germany shed its Nazi legacy. Few people alive today had anything to do with it. So long as we all learn from those mistakes, we surely cannot blame them for it any more. But, ditto British Empire revisionism. Right? If we're still nailing modern-day Germans to the mast then our own skeletons ain't much deeper. We're in glass houses.
What a dull, dismal, frightened little people you have become.
Ahh… bless.
We’ve spent hundreds of years going around the world invading countries justified by our supposed superiority, so I think it’s understandable that some people are rather wary of British chauvinism.
Balanced, perhaps, by the fact that for a thousand years or so, regular waves of invaders have swarmed across these islands imposing their views on the inhabitants.
Often those invaders took the inhabitants as slaves, and at least a million inhabitants of the British Isles were taken as slaves and sold across the Mediterranean and North Africa.
While our history of taking advantage of an existing slave trade to further our colonial enterprises is nothing to be proud of, we can at least be fairly proud of the fact that we stopped the trade and took steps to stop others from indulging in it, like the Portuguese, for example.
The Americans still don’t seem to have got the memo...
It was only in the 1950s when 'we' savagely put down the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya:
Prisoners were questioned with the help of "slicing off ears, boring holes in eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit cigarettes". Castration by British troops and denying access to medical aid to the detainees were also widespread and common.[218][219][220] Among the detainees who suffered severe mistreatment was Hussein Onyango Obama, the grandfather of Barack Obama, the former President of the United States. According to his widow, British soldiers forced pins into his fingernails and buttocks and squeezed his testicles between metal rods and two others were castrated.[221]
The historian Robert Edgerton describes the methods used during the emergency: "If a question was not answered to the interrogator's satisfaction, the subject was beaten and kicked. If that did not lead to the desired confession, and it rarely did, more force was applied. Electric shock was widely used, and so was fire. Women were choked and held under water; gun barrels, beer bottles, and even knives were thrust into their vaginas. Men had beer bottles thrust up their rectums, were dragged behind Land Rovers, whipped, burned and bayoneted... Some police officers did not bother with more time-consuming forms of torture; they simply shot any suspect who refused to answer, then told the next suspect, to dig his own grave. When the grave was finished, the man was asked if he would now be willing to talk."[222]
I blame Jeremy Clarkson for all this shit.
I wasnt a fan after it was hijacked by the BNP.
Then was getting used to it being ok most of the time... Then it was hijacked by another thing beginning with B.
Basically they are all B's!😐
The think I find the absolute oddest is when a home owner suddenly decides to put a huge flagpole in the garden with the Union flag on it. The flags are invariably bought from eBay cheaply, made in China (the irony) and look as if shot at with artillery after a few months.😁
CountZero,
Have a look at my earlier post as to why I think it's unreasonable to compare the slavery of the modern era, (last 400 years, age of science and reason etc) With the pre modern age of feudalism, fear and superstition.
If you are looking for ballance in this situation I suggest you are seeking to ballance reason with superstition, or in the light of 'pride' being an emotion (not a falsifiable or quantifiable thing) you are seeking to ballance facts with feelings.
I don't think ballance is the appropriate word, it can imply false equivalence or category error. If you're looking to provide context however, then look no further than grum's reply regarding Kenya. Something that occured during some of our lifetimes.
For a little more context, consider that those atrocities were committed whilst Churchill was Prime minister and the Governor of Kenya was Dominic Cummings grandfather in law.
I can feel admiration for William Wilberforce but any pride I might feel for Britain in the whole affair is tempered by the fact that when the slaves were released from ownership compensation was paid. Not to them but to the thousands of British slave owners. It was the biggest cheque ever signed by the British government, in relative terms, greater than the cost of lend / lease in WW2.
Rather like the thread that got closed the other day that descended into arguments about wether England or Scotland is the more racist, any time we seek to make such comparisons between nations, or between different eras and empires we run the risk of rationalizing racism. It's two bald men arguing over a comb.
As Santan Dave said at the Brit's last year, "The least racist is still racist". That line has run through my head a few times and caused me to pause and consider what I might be about to say or post and wether I may be just offering up a distraction.
It's the Union Flag isn't it?
Flags are great. But pride in the coincidence that you were born in a particular location or have a particular genetic trait is a bit odd really. The more you travel, the more you realise we're all pretty much the same. And yet any perceived difference between one set of people seems to be enough to cause a problem, especially if it's used as a lever by the unscrupulous.
I met the Turkish owner of a kebab shop a few years ago and complimented him on the photos of his home region of Turkey. I told him that it was where my great grandmother was from and that i'd never been there. He was overjoyed (didn't giver me a free kebab though) and told me how special it was. We laughed at how different we look given we might share some ancestry, and he explained in broken English how we're all the same and that world leaders should better realise this. It was a lovely moment, so I didn't tell him that all of the rest of my ancestors were killed by Turks in the Armenian genocide and she was smuggled to Africa.
I’m sure the flagiest place I’ve been was Canada.
First week of July?
National flag, state flag, even some more local flags. Some of the states are more into this than others, particularly Newfoundland.
They do provinces and territories up there.
Ever been to the US? Specially the southern half, or Texas? Now they take their flagging seriously.
some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilizing force in the world. And that plenty of it is still thankful for that
Dear god, where to start!!
You could start by asking if attitudes have changed.
I'd argue that despite this being the 'modern' era, we are still all new to the game of industrialization.
It has been only a few hundred years, of a history spanning about 100,000 years. I say give it all another few hundred and we might all be a bit more cozy together.
Yes, every country has a flag of its own, to identify and stand behind, but is it anything other than that ?, sure it has been usurped by everyone who's bad, by the racists and the hate group, and yup... empire builders but I think too many are reading too much into having one.
You see the republican mob carrying the stars and stripes, and it's flying from the homes of ordinary people who dont stand for bigotry or racism. You see the bnp etc waving it about, and yet again its on mugs and cars and a pile of other things.
Might want to just say that the bad elements are the cause, not the flag they wave about.
If we’re still nailing modern-day Germans to the mast
Out of curiosity, and I’m in no way saying it doesn’t happen, but have you seen someone do this, in person not online, in the last 10 years?
My experience of the English interacting with Germans over an even longer timeframe than that involves (not all at the same time) mountain days, friendship, laughs, beer, shagging, marriage, raising children.
Might want to just say that the bad elements are the cause, not the flag they wave about
I agree, but in similar vein, I don't feel I can wear my favourite black and yellow Fred Perry twin tip currently. It's been ok for 15 years, now wearing it makes me look like a white supremacist.
I think what I was trying to say yesterday is simply that many other countries manage to have a sense of national pride that is not toxic but positive, and so could England.
A flag for them represents the present rather than the past.
Ingerland flag wavers are hardly celebrating slavery or national superiority anyway (when did England last win anything?).
I’ve lived in a few countries and I haven’t seen them put themselves down like the English do. But England really isn’t a bad place and neither are its people.
The countries I’ve lived in besides England include Switzerland, Germany and Sweden which are often held up as role models. But they’re also far from perfect. The way they get portrayed in the media here doesn’t tally with the reality I saw. Tbh my experience is that the four countries are more or less interchangeable.
So, people of England, celebrate the many good things about your country and push for change in the things that aren’t.
IMHO flags in engerland are like Christmas trees, good for Christmas but a bit odd outside of Chrissy 🙂
Although must admit thou,mrs DoD’s mini had a tasteful flag on its roof 🙂
The more you travel, the more you realise we’re all pretty much the same. And yet any perceived difference between one set of people seems to be enough to cause a problem, especially if it’s used as a lever by the unscrupulous.
+1
The more you travel, the more you realise we’re all pretty much the same. And yet any perceived difference between one set of people seems to be enough to cause a problem, especially if it’s used as a lever by the unscrupulous.
+2
I almost always agree with what Orwell has to say on something, and he's very clear that without Patriotism you cannot defeat Nationalism
These men & women don't seem to have an issue with their country's flag...Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their books.
I almost always agree with what Orwell has to say on something, and he’s very clear that without Patriotism you cannot defeat Nationalism
Either that piece has aged badly or George Orwell isn't that clever. From today's perspective, his views on nationalism are absurd, incoherent and untrue.
He seems to regard nationalism as being any belief in a group or idea. If you flip around his use of patriotism and nationalism it makes more sense in a modern context but it's still rubbish.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to s**** at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings."
Nice turn of phrase, our George.
(not all at the same time) mountain days, friendship, laughs, beer, shagging, marriage, raising children.
Reads as a sequence. Be warned...
Ever been to the US? Specially the southern half, or Texas? Now they take their flagging seriously.
Yeah, South Carolina. Out of the cities I'd say you have a point.
While it’s good to appreciate stuff like that it doesn’t make us particularly special, certainly in Europe we are probably behind several nations on most if not all of those measures.
Oh so we only get to dumb down and 'appreciate' the good stuff we've done but have to eternally beat ourselves up for the bad stuff which is no worse than other nations histories. This is the problem with this narrative. Summing up thousands of years of history by one or two periods in our long and illustrious history where, only in the context of modern times and modern values we have not behaved well (slavery was perfectly legal back in the day and many other nations indulged in it and Africa was the global centre for the slave trade and slave market ao it was they who industrialised it). Again, point me in the direction of any country who is totally innocent in this regard. Every nation has had their empire at some stage each as brutal as the other, every nation has been involved in slavery, every nation has had its period of war mongery.
Also It does set us out differently as through our empire we exported those values. and the whole constitution of the USA was copied from our values and structures, not the French, not the Spanish or Dutch. This is significant. You can't sweep stuff like this under the carpet and marginalise it because it is inconvenient to the divisive narrative you want to push. To say that we're fundamentally bad and there is nothing to celebrate or to be proud of about being British is just a nonsense not even worth bothering to counter. Just crack on in your own little world and leave the rest of us to it.
Other nations have followed our lead and though they might be 'ahead' of us (though in reality they are not another myth) the difference is they wouldn't be if it were not for us. We did lead the world regarding basic human rights, freedoms, the rule of law and democracy and basic civilisation setting global standards. We've enjoyed the longest uninterrupted run of democracy and freedoms in modern history which has been continually developed and improved for hundreds of years while Europe was tearing itself apart through revolution after revolution and eventually, many hundreds of years after us, sorted themselves out with setting up as stable democracies. But lets not be proud of that and just 'appreciate' it.
So, people of England, celebrate the many good things about your country and push for change in the things that aren’t.
Exactly this. It's what you want it to be and for the majority of us it would be a positive thing. those that are not obsessed with historical point scoring which is a zero sum game and utterly pointless can just not fly the flag. The question is what are our values TODAY? If you don't subscribe to our values today then you have to ask yourself the question what are you doing here? why do you tolerate living in such a despicable place with such an atrocious history? You can't really feel like that. If I felt like that I'd have up sticks and moved years ago.
So, let me get this right - by being considerate to the darker sides of our past, I'm spoiling it for all the patriots? I'm so sorry, how insensitive of me.
Brevity is the soul of wit, as a great British writer once said.
So full of straw men I don't even know where to start wobbliscott.
No one has ever said there is nothing good about Britain.
However, the legacy of colonialism is especially relevant when you have a prime minister who has said that the problem with Africa is that we aren't in charge any more, and a government who's foreign policy was described witheringly by civil servants as empire 2.0.
And if you want to bleat on about democracy and freedom then why is it people who criticise the UK should leave? Bit hypocritical no?
Ookay.
but have to eternally beat ourselves up for the bad stuff which is no worse than other nations histories.
No. You don't have to 'beat yourself up'. That's not what this is about. You didn't actually DO any of that bad stuff, did you? This is about recognising what was done, and dealing with the toxic legacy of those things. I'll continue this point after the next quote:
But lets not be proud of that and just ‘appreciate’ it.
This is sarcasm of course, so you're saying we should be proud of British achievements. But why? You didn't DO any of those good things either. How can you be proud of something you didn't do? You can however appreciate it, just as you can appreciate the good things that happened in the rest of the world.
You don't get to think of YOURSELF as great simply because you were randomly born in a country where some other great people were also born. Similarly, you don't have to think of yourself as evil because you were born in the same country as some other bad people. But recognising how you've benefitted and continue to benefit from arrangements the effects of which continue to cause problems is very important.
Let's not forget that the money that Brits made trafficking humans on a massive scale and plundering remote countries entered the British economy where it circulated and stayed. It paid for things like universities, which subsequent generations went to and helped them do whatever good things they might've done. The country you see now is stained with the blood of people from every ethnic group in the world. I don't want you to feel bad about this, but I want you to recognise it and behave appropriately. Which essentially means not thinking that you're great because you're British.
Essentially, national pride is bollocks. The difference between national humility and national pride is that the latter is toxic. It results in things like Brexit at one end of the spectrum and wars at the other end. There is no 'we' in the sense of the actions of national governments - 'we' only exist as shared humanity, and that does not stop at the white cliffs or anywhere else.
the whole constitution of the USA was copied from our values and structures, not the French, not the Spanish or Dutch.
No, not exactly. We were an active monarchy at the time, and the US was very specifically concerned with NOT being a monarchy. The founding fathers were strongly influenced by the Enlightenment which was a European thing and had a strong French contingent as well as others. They also drew a lot from Iriquios Confederacy founded by Hiawatha (I bet you've heard the name but probably a lot less than Washington and his mates). The fact you said what you said suggests that either you really want to feel good about having been born in Britain by riding the coat tails of other people who actually did good things; or your education has been biased to make you think there's something inherently good about being British by ignoring the contributions of the non-British.
Very well put molgrips.
Just reading a bit more after posting that and it seems the Iriquois confederacy is likely to have bene founded in the 12th century. Clearly miles ahead of the Brits in the democracy and progress stakes at that point.
But you don't have to feel bad about that - just acknowledge it. None of this is about competition, or who is better than whom.
Let's not forget that a country is nothing more than the limits of a past leader's military power.
While you're having this discussion the Tories can wander through the room and say
"If you're not sure about this flag, can we have it?" and before Dianne has got her shoes on you're watching the room empty as people follow the flag without needing to wonder where they're going...
And that's why education is important.
As for the flag itself, it's just a (rather fetching) design. It's what we attach to it that's important. So it's entirely valid in a sporting context, where competition between nations is a great thing. But not so great in other contexts. That's why we need to have these discussions. I'm sure people who want to use the flag for their own ends would rather we didn't have them.
While you’re having this discussion the Tories can wander through the room and say
“If you’re not sure about this flag, can we have it?” and before Dianne has got her shoes on you’re watching the room empty as people follow the flag without needing to wonder where they’re going…
Newsflash - they already have, hence this discussion.
Nice bit of random misogyny about the black politician, speaks volumes.
Nice bit of random misogyny about the black politician
Ahh, if in doubt shout sexist or racist or both...to an empty room.
Ahh, if in doubt shout sexist or racist or both…to an empty room.
From the person who *randomly* chose the black woman to mock.
Ok comrade, whatever.
*whinges about people being characterised as bigoted
*calls someone a communist
How many people here rigorously vet their groceries, cars, phones and clothing for slave content?
There will be some.
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Dunno about rigourously vet but I do try yeah. I reckon I do quite well in some areas (clothes, food) but bad in others (tech).
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Oh bless, petal - I don't think you need worry yourself.
Pondo, are you this aggressive and unpleasant in real life?
Also, it's possible to care about more than one thing simultaneously. And I guarantee you there's a correlation between people who aren't keen on nationalism and those who make more ethical purchasing decisions.
I worry that so much energy goes into symbolism (flags and statues and virtue signalling) rather than actually doing something.
Umm no, not really a lot of energy. Just posting about it on here instead of posting about chain wax or whatever.
I don't think anyone's saying 'well I have a great idea to promote racial harmony, but I haven't got time cos I'm so busy worrying about flags'. Sounds a bit like you're clutching at straws if I'm honest, because you are looking for ways to not feel bad.
Thing is though, you need to feel a bit bad, but in a measured way. It wasn't YOU that did the bad things, but you did benefit - and the negative effects are still here. So adjust your worldview to acknowledge this, and then move on. You probably aren't particularly racist, but protesting about these things encourages the people who actually are.
Pondo, are you this aggressive and unpleasant in real life?
Mmm, not really, I wouldn't think. I mean, I wouldn't particularly characterise myself as aggressive and unpleasant on here, but I don't respond well to sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don't agree with.
DO you worry that so much energy goes into symbolism rather than actually doing something? Do you really?
but I don’t respond well to sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don’t agree with.
But I mean...really...u ok? 😀
But yeah, +1
This is all really making me think about whether empire really was as good as I’d previously thought. Now, to start a campaign to rename the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin.
sanctimonious passive aggression masquerading as faux concern for people you don’t agree with
You’re reading quite a lot into me just saying how I feel.
Yes I do worry about this. People paying lip service but not putting their money where their mouth is. Including me. That bothers me.
But I mean…really…u ok? 😀
But yeah, +1
This is all really making me think about whether empire really was as good as I’d previously thought. Now, to start a campaign to rename the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin.
I'm happy to discuss it with anyone, as I am anything, but I didn't need the condescension and I ain't gonna argue. 🙂
One of the aspects that constantly puzzles me on these discussions (as it has on this one) is the "we weren't the only ones to do it" - it's like, I know that, but we're not talking about, say, French colonialism in Africa, or the Spanish conquest of South America, or the Roman conquest of, well, everywhere, or the Mongul invasion of China, etc etc. We're talking about British history - that other states in history did similar bad things to us doesn't justify our dark past, and it doesn't mean, IMO, that we should overlook them because it's inconvenient or unpleasant or "unpatriotic".
It's the 'well the other boys were doing it too miss' excuse innit.
These men & women don’t seem to have an issue with their country’s flag…Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their books.
I actually find athletes/sports people draping themselves in the flag quite depressing. I'm a NUFC-supporting geordie so I get the tribalism thing, but played out at a national/international scale seems a bit silly. What would the olympics look like if you took the nationalism out of it and just had the sport? It would be a whole lot better I reckon. Same with international football. Actually there's no point whatsoever in international football so getting rid of it altogether would be no great loss. And don't get me started on how politicians and others with selfish or nefarious intentions then use the achievements of sports people for their own ends. It's all nonsense really.
Nah, it’s great to have a national team to cheer for in the olympics. I still get joy from watching the achievements and stories of athletes from other countries though. More of the later in coverage of the olympics would be great, but not at the total exclusion of the former.
I actually find athletes/sports people draping themselves in the flag quite depressing
obviously. 😀.
Personally I think if you want shot of Nationalism (and who doesn’t) you have to be a patriot.
The Olympics is all about which country can produce the best athletes with the least detectable doping regime. We wouldn't be able to compare if it was just individuals.
:sarcasticwinkyface:
Did some of you go to those schools where 'everyone' got a prize?
I still get joy from watching the achievements and stories of athletes from other countries though.
Many (probably most) don't though, for no other reason than their nationality, and that's what's depressing about it.
Did some of you go to those schools where ‘everyone’ got a prize?
Not me, no. Why do you ask?
Did some of you go to those schools where ‘everyone’ got a prize?
I was highly competitive, representing both school and county at national level, and was county champion while at school. Our school events were super competitive, and our rugby and hockey players in particular dominated county teams as a result. Sorry... what was you point? That a considered approach to history and identity, especially negative "othering" of people due to where they were born, is the preserve of people who don't like competitive sports, or were taught not to embrace them? That understanding the negative as well as the positive effects of sharing/embracing a flag is only of interest to those that shun sports?
No, I was just wondering about school sports and whether it informed approaches to national competitions.
Sport offers a (fairly) benign repository for patriotic and nationalistic feelings. These feelings are a bit like religion in that they have a constant presence, you cant just make them go away or ban them. These feelings are better steered towards an organised event that provides entertainment. Left unchecked they will find expression in more dangerous ways.
Football can be pretty awful in relation to vulgar and aggressive expression of uber nationalism, but it becomes a domain where those feelings can be somewhat contained and observed. In ancient times these feelings were given vent in the Colluseum, football is just the same with a little less blood. Progress of a sort.
If I see a group of lads draped in England flags walking the street, or houses decorated with flags during the World Cup or the Euros then I think nothing of it. However we all know there's a half life to this expression, how many days do you keep that flag flying after the tournament has ended? There's a period of time of a few days, (we kind of collectively and instinctively know how long it is), before the flags meaning changes to represent something more sinister and mendacious. It becomes a false flag.
I tried and failed many times to get to compete for England. It didn't lead to me thinking the English were in any way superior to the Welsh... or Germans... and never saw fellow competitors as "the enemy"... I supposes that's where it starts tipping over... identifying with your house, or school, or city, or county, or nation, or country, or continent... coming together with those you share that with, is great... right up until it makes you think you are special just because of that identity, and considering those with other identities, those who wave different flags, as either the enemy or inferior... then everything starts going to shit (see history).
So is there a continium from sporting rivalry to jingoism?
If it exists, can we slice it thinly enough to be able to support, cheer on, take pride in sporting acheivements without stepping into the rubbish?
I'm interested because the preceding pages seemed to not represent anyone I know.
What would the olympics look like if you took the nationalism out of it and just had the sport?
TdF before Sky. Better.
I don’t feel I can wear my favourite black and yellow Fred Perry twin tip currently.
This actually made me laugh !
Wow, this has been a fun read! Our flag is pretty boring to be fair. The Welsh one has a ****ing dragon on it and we’ve got a couple of primary colours and a bunch of straight lines at different angles. We should have a new one with more colour (and dragons).
I associate the Union Jack with violent racists and people that love the royal family more than is healthy for a fully functioning adult. I suspect the second group consists of a lot of “I’m not racist but” types.
I find national pride and flag waving a bit odd. We should be banding together as a world to sort our shit out before it’s too late. Continuing to see ourselves as separate entities doesn’t help this in my opinion.
We should be aware of our past and learn from it, as should every nation. Hand wringing and apologising for it is just daft though. I find the use of “we” in “what we did” quite alarming. I had nothing to do with slavery, I was born in the 70’s. It’s a case of “what they did” not we.
I used to work in bridgeton in Glasgow a hotbed of rangersness and orangery. One day in July a wee man from the council came to take down the union jacks tied to the lampposts invoking the councils non sectarian policy on council property. A crowd gathered. He ended up in the Clyde.