[Closed] The Union Jack

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Switzerland? Famed for neutrality, chocolate and novelty clocks, they haven't shown up to a war armed with non-locking pocket knifes for a couple of hundred years. Also, their flag is a big plus.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Or, turn that around, name a country that has a worse record than Britain. We're in a very select group.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

I'm not sure about that, but Croatia has a chequered flag

On the flag/ jack thing - all flags flown from a jack staff are jacks. Union flag jack is hard to say and Union Jack rolls of the tongue better.

I do find the connotations of the flag awkward and would not display it when abroad because of this. Perhaps what we need is a new flag for a clean slate for what we hope to be... oh hang on.

Also, their flag is a big plus.

It is very positive isn't it.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Wales.
Mainly because it has never had the powers needed to do bad stuff.

Not sure why we should be felt to be embarrased by it. Why do we have to be the only nation on earth that some feel should be embarrassed by ourselves

we shouldn't be the only nation on earth that some feel should be embarrassed by ourselves.

Plenty of other, predominantly European countries have horrific pasts in terms of slavery, colonialization, massacres of black and brown people. Plenty of countries should be embarrassed for their present too. Probably doesn't help that what we see in the media is always the tips of the spectrum.

Hand wringing lefties, trying to scrub out or attone for crimes of other people, in other times held to other standards, or the Hoolingan/Daily heil dullards who seem to be proud of it.

I like to think the wide majority of people can take a passing interest in history, make a critical assessment of it, recognize that a lot of what we have as a nation is built off the back of bad stuff some people did, and move forward as a civilization.

I've got no time for flag waving myself. Its absurd to assume form of superiority based on Geography

While we are at it, Jerusalem, as a sporting song. Always tickles/grinds my gears in equal amounts to see it sung be flag waving loons.
Its a critique on the absurdity of empire, colonialism and nationalism. Probably the last song that should be sung waving a union flag.

Switzerland?

We'll ignore all the harbouring of Nazi gold etc during and after WWII and the fact it is essentially the money laundering centre for a host of very dodgy organisations and regimes shall we? 😉

Also the considerable financial and economic support given to the nazi regime right up to the very last days of the war, the mistreatment of allied prisoners by a supposedly neutral nation, and the obstacles put in place at every opportunity to prevent plundered wealth being returned to its rightful owners families...

I’m not sure about that, but Croatia has a chequered flag

Very good.

I give you... North Brabant...

...and... rather more fetching... Antwerp...

Its a critique on the absurdity of empire, colonialism and nationalism.

It is?

Switzerland? Famed for neutrality, chocolate and novelty clocks

And overt racism.

essentially the money laundering centre for a host of very dodgy organisations and regimes shall we?

I thought we were talking about Switzerland not the UK.

Hmmm this threads going well!

I think Spain/The Spanish probably feel a bit guilty, about South America, but all those millions now speak one of the world’s great languages (not Portuguese) and have an easy in to the U.S. where in many parts of the southwest, you could get away with not even speaking English. Likewise many inhabitants of great African nations luckily speak French, another of the world’s most widely spoken languages. I myself, am blessed with having English as my first language being descended from those who were civilised through the hard work of the British Empire. It is not one bit unappreciated, believe me!

On the flag/ jack thing – all flags flown from a jack staff are jacks. Union flag jack is hard to say and Union Jack rolls of the tongue better.

On this week's episode of "Today I Learned"...

The etymology of 'jack' comes from a word for peasant and generally means small or inferior. A jack (flag) is a small flag; the jack in crown green bowling is a smaller ball; 'jack of all trades' implicitly suggests its meaning without needing the second half of the saying; a deck of cards has the jack as the least valuable court card; and there's loads of other examples that I'd never heard of.

The etymology of ‘jack’ comes from a word for peasant and generally means small or inferior.

Now... that is quite interesting.

We’ll ignore all the harbouring of Nazi gold etc

I mean, I'll hold my hand up here. I know nothing about Switzerland, I wrote that post solely to shoehorn in the gag at the end.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Wales.

... isn't a country, it's a principality. Which is why there's no dragons or green on the Union Flag, it's represented as "England and Wales" by the presence of the SGC. No doubt much to the chagrin of the Welsh who really got the brown end of the stick with that one.

Hmmm this threads going well!

If you were referring to my post:

We are also one of the countries with the most positive view of their colonial exploits:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/03/11/how-unique-are-british-attitudes-empire

Now… that is quite interesting.

Kinda makes it a bit of a poor choice as a boy's name, hey. "This is our Jack, and his sister Plebeian."

Ooooooooh I've just thought, is this where "jack shit" comes from? I'll bet it is.

… isn’t a country, it’s a principality.

Uh - oh .... RUN AWAY !!!

Wales is a country, as is Australia, Canada, and all manner of other places that have never had their own Monarch.

The etymology of ‘jack’ comes from a word for peasant and generally means small or inferior.

Jack Johnson is going to be furious.

Grum - it wasn’t specifically aimed at you, though I have to say I still wouldn’t agree the UK is the most corrupt country in the world. I can think of lots of examples of corruption in this country, but that still doesn’t make the UK the MOST corrupt, since that’s a relative measure, and there’s a lot more evidence of others being worse...

Uh – oh …. RUN AWAY !!!

Wales is a country

Well, it seems you're right and I'm out of date. It was a principality but is recognised as a country in its own right now following devolution around the turn of the century.

We're learning things at a rate today, aren't we! Gosh.

… isn’t a country, it’s a principality. Which is why there’s no dragons or green on the Union Flag, it’s represented as “England and Wales” by the presence of the SGC. No doubt much to the chagrin of the Welsh who really got the brown end of the stick with that one.

You can debate what Wales is but it's not a principality.
It's not ruled by a prince. The Prince of Wales title is ceremonial and meaningless.

Wales is also not represented as 'England and Wales' on the flag, it's represented as England.
The territories that we now call Wales were conquered and declared part of the Kingdom of England.

Elephant only animal with four knees. Not relevant but thought I'd continue the learning.

Elephant only animal with four knees

Only mammal.

Surely insects have at least 4?

Horse?

Balls

Switzerland? Famed for neutrality, chocolate and novelty clocks, they haven’t shown up to a war armed with non-locking pocket knifes for a couple of hundred years. Also, their flag is a big plus.

Famed for their skill an warfare and hiring themselves out to the highest bidder all through 17th century. I think there were plenty of massacres carried out in the 30 years war by Swiss mercenaries.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

Wales.

They used to love kicking the shit out of each other, and the English. One reason they got swallowed up when the Normans came.

deadlydarcy
Free Member
I think Spain/The Spanish probably feel a bit guilty, about South America, but all those millions now speak one of the world’s great languages (not Portuguese) and have an easy in to the U.S. where in many parts of the southwest, you could get away with not even speaking English. Likewise many inhabitants of great African nations luckily speak French, another of the world’s most widely spoken languages. I myself, am blessed with having English as my first language being descended from those who were civilised through the hard work of the British Empire. It is not one bit unappreciated, believe me!

😆 😆

Jack Jack in the Incredibles!

Elephant only animal with four knees. Not relevant but thought I’d continue the learning.

They have two.

Seeing lying scum Grant Shapps frothing about not having to display a GB sticker in the future on your car in Europe if you have one of their stupid new union jack number plates really brought it home to me what our flag sums up to me now.

With my ancestry, Britain and empire creates some mixed feelings and antipathy to what it sometimes represents. Back in time one of my forebears was a privateer trading in slaves and rum between Guyana and Europe. To complicate matters, my great great grandmother was of African descent her ancestors having been shipped from Mali to Guyana, but bearing the family name of said privateer and her family probably suffering god knows what. However, her son, my great grandfather prospered in the afterglow of empire, living in Demerara, Madeira and Glasgow. I also have a strong family connection with The Western Isles and Ireland so no doubt some of my ancestors were persecuted in the clearances and famine. I imagine there are many in the UK with similar mixed histories. For me ‘peak’ GB was the 2012 Olympics - but it has decayed significantly since. I have strong suspicions about anyone who waves the flag a bit too strongly in the same way I’d look at a Trump MAGA supporter.

"For me ‘peak’ GB was the 2012 Olympics"

This is so true and only serves as a reminder of what could have been. It encompassed a vision of Britain that even Boris bought into at the time. That is, until the Brexit referendum presented an opportunity he couldn't resist.

It just shows how mutable the flag is in terms of what it represents and means. The flag had become benign, no longer in the ownership of Nationalsts (as it had been during the 70's and 80's)

Boris the mayor waived it like a comedy character from a Carry On film, an end of the pier entertainer. Then the wind changed and he waved it like a Confederate flag.

Meaning is subject to context and use as they say.

Slavery has existed since written records began. It wasn't suddenly invented by 18c. entrepreneurs. Its almost a natural state of mankind - where ever you have humans, you have human slaves. Its still around but at least its no longer respectable.

Without Britain and the British Empire, slavery as a respectable business practice would probably have lasted a lot longer than it did.

So perhaps when you see a Union Jack you could be proud because its the flag of William Wilberforce and his fellow abolitionists. Its the flag of the Royal Navy's West African squadron and the flag of the MPs who voted through the 1807 and 1833 acts and a government that put international pressure on other slave trading nations.

“For me ‘peak’ GB was the 2012 Olympics”

Even more, for one hour or so on one Saturday, the nation roared as a mixed race girl, then a Somali immigrant, and finally a ginger bloke all won gold medals. I was so proud.

And then, Britain, you ****ed it all up.

Whinging poms.

Gobby deported crims. 🙂

@somewhatslightlydazed - that's an extremely one-sided version of history you are presenting there.

So I guess when Scotland become independent the white cross background will have to be removed - and the blue background? Or can we keep that?

EDIT - just found an article on it - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25205017

This is my favourite...

Famed for their skill an warfare and hiring themselves out to the highest bidder all through 17th century. I think there were plenty of massacres carried out in the 30 years war by Swiss mercenaries.

Swiss Guard were mercenaries hired to originally guard the Vatican.

So I guess when Scotland become independent the white cross background will have to be removed – and the blue background? Or can we keep that?

If you take off the Scottish flag you'd have to take off the Irish one too, and then you're left with just the English flag. That's gonna go down well in Wales.

Slavery has existed since written records began. It wasn’t suddenly invented by 18c. entrepreneurs.

Hmm yes but it was always on a small local scale. What the British did was industrialise it on a massive scale far beyond anything that had happened before. So the fact we abolished it relatively early doesn't make up for the fact that we created the industry in the first place.

So perhaps when you see a Union Jack you could be proud because its the flag of William Wilberforce and his fellow abolitionists.

How could you do that and then ignore the millions of people transported as slaves under it? It's also the flag of Robert Clive and Reginald Dyer.

All Wilberforce did was stop (after 200 years) what should never have started in the first place.

Hmm yes but it was always on a small local scale

Not sure that is right, but I'll agree that the Atlantic Slave trade was the most large scale "industrialised?" example and Britain was complicit in this.

How could you do that and then ignore the millions of people transported as slaves under it?

You can't. What I'm trying to get at is the Britain realised it was doing something that wrong, stopped doing it and then tried to stop other countries from doing it. I can't think of anything else where such a huge change was done so relatively peacefully. The Americans had to fight a war over it*

All Wilberforce did was stop (after 200 years) what should never have started in the first place

I think that's a bit unfair on William.

I often wonder what crimes we will be condemned for in 150 years time that we don't think of as crimes now. Perhaps killing animals for meat when we don't have to or ruining the environment. All we have to do is stop doing it.

*yes I know the war didn't start over slavery, but it was the underlying disagreement.

“For me ‘peak’ GB was the 2012 Olympics”

Even more, for one hour or so on one Saturday, the nation roared as a mixed race girl, then a Somali immigrant, and finally a ginger bloke all won gold medals. I was so proud.

And then, Britain, you **** it all up.

Bloody gingers, it was all going well till they got involved

Hmm yes but it was always on a small local scale. What the British did was industrialise it on a massive scale far beyond anything that had happened before.

Apart from when the Romans and the Egyptians did it before us ?

It's amazing the efforts folk will go to to be affronted by their country just so they can be affronted.

What I’m trying to get at is the Britain realised it was doing something that wrong, stopped doing it and then tried to stop other countries from doing it

It could be argued the most decisive factor wasn't a moral one but economic.
People had been opposing slavery for decades on moral grounds and were largely ignored.
Things started to turn when economists like Adam Smith began to suggest it was inefficient.
Added to that, you have events like the Zong massacre and a change to insurance laws.

@theotherjonv I don't know where you are geographically, but when 'outside' becomes a thing again I'll buy you a pint.

What the British did was industrialise it on a massive scale far beyond anything that had happened before

Possibly correct, but Arab slavers were giving it a good go on the other side of Africa. What Britain and other European countries did was horrendous, but it wasn't entirely a European issue.

The numbers on here are eyewatering
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

somewhatslightlydazed
Free Member

What I’m trying to get at is the Britain realised it was doing something that wrong, stopped doing it and then tried to stop other countries from doing it.

That, uh, very simple. The Haitian uprisings/revolutions, the decline of the sugar trade and the growth of industrialisation were all critical. I'm not sure there's any way to really say which was most important but I do think that there's no way that Britain would have "realised it was doing something wrong" in 1807 and 1833, if they'd still been making as much money from slavery... And just like in the american civil war, Britain's eventual anti-slavery position suited its economic position.

But like I say it's complicated. Some of the major players in the industrial revolution were inspired by seeing it as an social changer, and among that was that it had the ability to reduce the usefulness of slave labour, frinstance.

I’ve never had any slaves and neither, I imagine, have any of you, so we have no reason to feel ashamed of anything.

I don’t expect today’s Germans to feel ashamed of the Nazis.

It’s entirely possible to be love your country and be proud of what it stands for and fly your flag without being xenophobic etc. Take Sweden.

I don’t expect today’s Germans to feel ashamed of the Nazis.

Er…

chrispo
Free Member

I’ve never had any slaves and neither, I imagine, have any of you, so we have no reason to feel ashamed of anything.

OK, but that's the thing. I don't feel any responsibility for Britain's slave trading, or warmongering, or similar. But then I also don't wave the union jack or take any pride in "what my country stands for", for much the same reason. What my country stands for has often not been something to take pride in.

But if you want to wave that flag- if you want to take pride in things the country has done, which you were not personally responsible for, then how can you also say I don't feel any shame for things the country has done which I was not personally responsible for?

TBF, if you do that, you're not proud of your country at all. You're proud of the fictional version of your country in your head- like Boris Johnston loves his fictional version of Churchill not the real one.

The only way to take pride in and believe in your actual country, is to own the good and the bad and still believe it's worth being proud of. If you find yourself having to dismiss the bad, that's not a real good sign.

I don’t expect today’s Germans to feel ashamed of the Nazis.

perfect godwin. Perhaps re read that? How should they feel about swastikas?

Swiss Guard were mercenaries hired to originally guard the Vatican.

They were bastard tough troops with good pike skills from the late thirteenth century. Despite their renowned ferocity they started to lose their edge as the Germans caught up with their tactics and so withdrew from fighting and became internationally neutral. The Swiss Guard as Vatican Army was relatively late shift in their career at around 1506.(Just in time for afternoon tea and biscuits).

I’ve never had any slaves and neither, I imagine, have any of you, so we have no reason to feel ashamed of anything.

The present day wealth of this country is intrinsically linked to slavery and colonial exploitation. This is worth thinking about also though https://www.dressember.org/blog/how-many-slaves-do-you-own

But if you want to wave that flag- if you want to take pride in things the country has done, which you were not personally responsible for, then how can you also say I don’t feel any shame for things the country has done which I was not personally responsible for?

TBF, if you do that, you’re not proud of your country at all. You’re proud of the fictional version of your country in your head- like Boris Johnston loves his fictional version of Churchill not the real one.

Well put.

I don’t expect today’s Germans to feel ashamed of the Nazis.

You may not expect them to, but a lot of them do. And because of that they are very keen not to repeat the mistakes of history and have welcomed many thousands more refugees than we have in recent years.

While those Brits feeling no shame for past mistakes have voted for Brexit, with a rise in hate crime since.

I'm ashamed of Britain's past, though I don't wallow in it. I just try and educate myself, and others where I can, so we remember what was done in our country's name.

The present day wealth of this country is intrinsically linked to slavery and colonial exploitation.

So what ? Are we supposed to be embarrassed by that.

Slavery was a fact of life until it was accepted that is was an abhorrent practice. We are not responsible for it having happened.

While those Brits feeling no shame for past mistakes have voted for Brexit, with a rise in hate crime since.

That is rubbish.

Are we supposed to be embarrassed by that.

Yes. We are not to blame for it, we are not responsible for it… but we absolutely should be cognisant of it… embarrassed by it… ashamed of it… maybe even a little bit apologetic about it. Absolutely not proud of it.

So what ? Are we supposed to be embarrassed by that.

So what? We should be aware of it and use it as a warning against the dangers of racism, jingoism and British exceptionalism.

That is rubbish.

Which part? If you see the yougov polling I voted earlier Brexit voters are much more likely to view the empire fondly.

Not being embarrassed by it does not make you proud of it by the way.

It’s not something to be neutral about. Just as Germans aren’t neutral about what the Nazis did.

There seems to be lack of understand of the difference between feeling embarrassed and feeling guilty.
My 90 year old step dad a few months before his death congratulated a young mother in the street on her delightful little piccaninny. Yep, she looked horrified and I was hoping for the ground to open.
Did I feel guilty? No.
Other people did this. I feel embarrassed but not guilty. I didn't do it. And I sure as **** don't do anything to enable it.
And I hope I'll do something to stop it happening in future.

Slavery was a fact of life until it was accepted that is was an abhorrent practice. We are not responsible for it having happened.

No-one's saying we are. But it's blinkered to celebrate our heritage yet ignore large sections of it.

(It took us a long time to decide slavery was abhorrent, by the way - didn't really start to think about it until we lost America, and it took another 50 years to abolish it ourselves, and that was an uphill struggle. Would we have abolished it if we still had a massive colony where slave labour built fortunes...? )

I feel embarrassed but not guilty. I didn’t do it.

This.

@somewhatslightlydazed. You need better history books.

the dangers of racism, jingoism and British exceptionalism.

You’re probably overstating that tbh grum. No danger of any of that these days.

@northwind - I tend to agree with you. But it's good to get some of the folk who have massively one sided views of these things thinking. 😃

You can rightly be proud of what your country stands for today.

Waving a flag does not mean you have to condone or be proud of its past.

It’s only a flag ffs.

The Union Jack and St George flag will only shout BNP if the rest of you don’t reclaim them.

(And no my limited wealth hasn’t come from past slavery. Most of it has come out of the North Sea.)

What distinguishes trans Atlantic slavery from slavery in ancient times is that is was done during the age of humanism, the age of reason and the age of the enlightenment. The things that absolutely underpin the society we live in today.

Not only was this atrocity conducted during this enlightened period, it was both justified and excused by the greatest thinkers of the day. It is not enough to say that these thinkers and actors were of their time, they defined their time and used eugenics and scientism to lend legitimacy to racism and therefore justify the nature of the Atlantic slave trade.

Just sayin'

Hilarious angst ridden STW at its finest, quinoa smoothies all round.

chrispo
Free Member

You can rightly be proud of what your country stands for today.

Why? Even if you agree with it, even if you feel you voted for it, you didn't create it, you're not responsible for it.

So why can you be rightly proud of what your country stands for or what it's achieving now, when you aren't responsible for it, but also feel no guilt or connection to what your country did a hundred years ago because you weren't responsible for it?

I don't feel ashamed of Britain's past because if you can't be PROUD of something you're not responsible for then surely you cant be ASHAMED of something you're not responsible for either.

The shame lies in the desire to take credit in what those before you did whilst assuming no responsibility. We can admire or appreciate something whilst still offering it up to scrutiny, we can be objective about someone or something whilst acknowledging that virtue and ,meaning change with the times.

Pride kind of cancels scrutiny, there's no objectivity in pride, only emotion. Thats why we should always be extra careful when we feel pride, it could just be emotion suppressing reason.

You can rightly be proud of what your country stands for today.

What's that then?

I dunno, stuff like peace, freedom, fairness, law and order. It’s a much better country than most for all its flaws.

Well put inkster, I think we're on similar lines but you explain it in ways that make me think differently.

I dunno, stuff like peace, freedom, fairness, law and order. It’s a much better country than most for all its flaws.

Ah, well - if supporting the Union flag means a blinkered celebration of all the good things, conveniently forgetting that some of the good things aren't actually as good as you're making out, and ignoring all the crap bits, then fill your boots. I'm out.

I reckon the front cover of this months GQ must be causing some sleepless night on STW lol.