[Closed] The Ukraine - where will it all end?

i don't know where it'll end but it seems to be getting uglier the longer it continues.... 25 dead due to protesting :/

a big concrete wall dividing east from west?

Is it the beginning of a "spring" in the former USSR states? It looks to have a similar "shape" to the Arab protests.

It's looking like a war zone

[url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26269221 ]BBC News[/url]

BLOG 10:35
BBC Monitoring's Vitaliy Schevchenko says a key member of Ukraine's ruling party, Serhiy Tyhypko, has criticised both sides in the crisis. On his Facebook page Tyhypko says "the president, parliament speaker, acting prime minister and opposition leaders have totally lost control of the situation".

This as also interesting, if true

emails: I am receiving information all the time, from friends in Kiev... and talk about an east-west split is complete nonsense. I have friends from Lugansk and Rivne who are in Kiev. All of Ukraine is together, to fight for a common cause... to see an end to the dictatorship.

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vs

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I suspect that if Yanukovych doesn't get a grip, Russia will invade.

Some "spring"...

Yep, overt Russian involvement can't be that far away. Obama has also talked about 'consequences'

I know some Ukrainians

I'm being told travelling between cities is becoming more and more impossible

They have also told me travel to Poland has been blocked

I'm concerned

Its just a good job that Russia has always been reluctant to interfere directly, militarily in the affairs of its neighbouring countries, when its perceives a threat to its interests. Especially so with a cool, non-aggressive head like Putin at the helm.

Oh… wait…. hang on a minute…..

Yep, no historical precedents set there

[img] https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/925921536/h608EA97B/ [/img]

The rumours are true, the government has brought in snipers

Thirteen of the protesters killed in Independence Square on Thursday morning died from single gunshot wounds fired by a sniper, a medic in Independence Square tells Interfax-Ukraine news agency.

TWEET 10:51
Kateryna Kruk, The Guardian
tweets: "Snipers are shooting from from Hotel Ukraina and Instytutsjka, more dead around"

Interestingly after Georgia affairs after few years, Georgians themselves hold their heads in shame and fancy coming back as friends with MotherLand. Guess west stopped hand outs, while Russian market was closed for them.

They realised who was the daddy.

Same will be with Ukraine.

The more dependant we become on The Bear's oil and gas the more chance we have of being the next Ukraine.
Every windmill and solar panel is a **** off to Putin.

there's talk now of a state of emergency and internet and mobile phone networks going offline

Yeah, once one knows about the er...'troubled history' between the Ukraine and other parts of the former USSR, it seems like it has all the potential to really kick off (i.e. Russia going in). I think it helps understand the current situation if one has some historical perspective on what's going on. IMO, a lot of the trouble in these former Soviet states and Balkans countries (and much of the Middle East) has roots in what happened during WW2. I think in the West, we have shorter memories than in other parts of the World.

I'm not sure how many people in the West are aware, but a lot of Ukrainians sided with the Nazis in WW2, and the atrocities carried out by Ukrainians on other Soviets and 'undesirables' was so extreme that it even shocked the SS soldiers (not too shocked to stop the s**ts filming it though!!) - I've seen some of the footage shot by the Nazis and it's so bad, I had to switch it off. Apparently, the Ukrainians who volunteered for the SS were so extreme that they were formed into 'special units' to eradicate any potential opposition to Nazi rule.

I don't know what Russians think of the Ukrainians now, but given their past record, I can't think there'd be much opposition to military intervention.

I feel very sorry for the ordinary folk who are inevitably going
to end up getting caught up in the fall-out from this trouble. Just goes to show how unresolved political issues can grow into ugly situations.

the ukranians I know, young educated etc are much more liberal and westernized than the ss volunteers above! however a girl I know despite being very anti yanyukovich was negative about many of her fellow ukranians and what the eventual outcome would be

12:01:

About 50 opposition activists are blocking the tracks in front of a train carrying paratroopers from Dnepropetrovsk to Kiev, the Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports, quoting a head of a local branch of the opposition Fatherland party. The 10-carriage train carrying 500 servicemen is being held up at a small station outside Dnepropetrovsk, in eastern Ukraine.

It doesn't look like a Kiev only, or even western Ukraine only, protest then..

woody2000 - Member
Is it the beginning of a "spring" in the former USSR states? It looks to have a similar "shape" to the Arab protests.

looks more like the beginning of a civil war.

With this many people dying and a high level of Putin involvement it does feel more like a Syria rather than a Tunisia, unfortunately....

The reason for the Ukrainian hatred of the rest of the USSR has a lot to do with how Stalin treated them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

the ukranians I know, young educated etc are much more liberal and westernized than the ss volunteers above!

I don't think we have to travel very far to see how these past historical events can fester away and influence current politics (Northern Ireland). Sadly, I dunno what the answer is.

bowglie - Member
Yeah, once one knows about the er...'troubled history' between the Ukraine and other parts of the former USSR, it seems like it has all the potential to really kick off (i.e. Russia going in). I think it helps understand the current situation if one has some historical perspective on what's going on. IMO, a lot of the trouble in these former Soviet states and Balkans countries (and much of the Middle East) has roots in what happened during WW2. I think in the West, we have shorter memories than in other parts of the World.

I'm not sure how many people in the West are aware, but a lot of Ukrainians sided with the Nazis in WW2, and the atrocities carried out by Ukrainians on other Soviets and 'undesirables' was so extreme that it even shocked the SS soldiers (not too shocked to stop the s**ts filming it though!!) - I've seen some of the footage shot by the Nazis and it's so bad, I had to switch it off. Apparently, the Ukrainians who volunteered for the SS were so extreme that they were formed into 'special units' to eradicate any potential opposition to Nazi rule.

I don't know what Russians think of the Ukrainians now, but given their past record, I can't think there'd be much opposition to military intervention.

I feel very sorry for the ordinary folk who are inevitably going
to end up getting caught up in the fall-out from this trouble. Just goes to show how unresolved political issues can grow into ugly situations.

in fairness, there was the ukrainian genocide/"famine", pre WW2, so I guess you could understand why they weren't particularly fond of stalin.

That famine reminds me of Mao's Great Leap Forward that was always doomed to failure, with something like 20-40 million people dying from starvation and forced labour. Genocide of an impossibly epic scale.

Chairman Meow

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Councillors in Ukraine's western Transcarpathia Region have voted to declare the region "free of Yanukovych rule" - UNIAN news agency via BBC Monitoring.
13:33: Irena Taranyuk from the BBC's Ukrainian Service says the authorities have "lost control" of the west of the country.
"Local protestors have not only taken control of local authorities but they have torched security services headquarters," she told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
13:32: Trains running from opposition-minded western Ukraine to Kiev are either badly delayed or cancelled - due urgent engineering works, says Ukraine's state-owned railway operator Ukrzaliznytsya.
Unconfirmed reports also say extra train services are being put in place to bring government supporters to Kiev from the country's Russian-speaking east - BBC Monitoring.

Looks like the Ivano-Frankisvk region might be joining the Transcarpathian oblast on rejecting Yanukovych's rule. All news reports subject to heresay and rumour, obvs

Ivano-Frankivsk regional council in western Ukraine passes a vote of no-confidence in President Yanukovych designating him an "illegitimate head of state", the UNIAN news agency reports.

?_?

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

it is all looking very grim, poor sods

re when will [i]The[/i] Ukraine end, officially in 1993.

Meanwhile, in Venezuela;
[img] ?w=480&h=314[/img]

[img] ?w=480&h=356[/img]

[img] ?w=480&h=267[/img]

See also Bangkok which is looking equally dodgy.

Coverage of both Venezuela and Thai riots is much lower in the UK, though.

Everyone knows that stuff like this gets reported in a sliding scale of importance directly linked to the skin tone of the people involved

See also: the importance of death league table

how much gas and oil have they got Cpt

Just trying to work out how much to care

See also Bangkok which is looking equally dodgy.
Coverage of both Venezuela and Thai riots is much lower in the UK, though.

I imagine that's a result of the European involvement with this one.

how much gas and oil have they got Cpt

Just trying to work out how much to care

Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world

I thought they were all commies in Venezuela?

I thought they were all commies in Venezuela?

Good, we should be able to start formulating an equation here:

(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK = newsworthiness

(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK = newsworthiness

Obviously from a UK point of view, in Spain Venezuela gets a fair amount of coverage.

So:

(oil reserves/communism)x proximity to UK x (language + shared history) = newsworthiness

not just western ukraine

15:52: In Rivne, north-eastern Ukraine, the regional council has voted to strip the government-appointed regional administration of all its powers. "We have assumed responsibility for running Rivne Region," council chairman Mykhaylo Kyrylov says - UNIAN news agency via BBC Monitoring.

Yanukovych is starting to look like the guy who's farted in a lift

16:05:

More on the decision of Kiev's acting mayor, Volodymyr Makeyenko, to leave President Yanukovych's Party of Regions: "I'm ready to do everything possible to stop fratricide and bloodshed in the heart of Ukraine, in Independence Square. Human life should have the highest value in our country and nothing can stand in the way of this principle," he said.

From Matt Frei (of channel 4 news) on twitter:
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattfrei

According to protest sources 100 killed today #Kiev. We personally counted 13 dead. But I can easily imagine more

We filmed protesters capturing a dozen riot police, frog marching them to the police HQ and the releasing them after a civics lecture

By cracking down on protests but failing to end occupation of #Maidan @janukovich has shot himself in both feet. Big backlash. The end?

Reports of government closing bridges to Kiev to stem flow of new arrivals. Meanwhile defecting governor of capital has opened Metro

bowglie - Member

Yeah, once one knows about the er...'troubled history' between the Ukraine and other parts of the former USSR, it seems like it has all the potential to really kick off (i.e. Russia going in). I think it helps understand the current situation if one has some historical perspective on what's going on. IMO, a lot of the trouble in these former Soviet states and Balkans countries (and much of the Middle East) has roots in what happened during WW2. I think in the West, we have shorter memories than in other parts of the World.

I'm not sure how many people in the West are aware, but a lot of Ukrainians sided with the Nazis in WW2, and the atrocities carried out by Ukrainians on other Soviets and 'undesirables' was so extreme that it even shocked the SS soldiers (not too shocked to stop the s**ts filming it though!!) - I've seen some of the footage shot by the Nazis and it's so bad, I had to switch it off. Apparently, the Ukrainians who volunteered for the SS were so extreme that they were formed into 'special units' to eradicate any potential opposition to Nazi rule.

I don't know what Russians think of the Ukrainians now, but given their past record, I can't think there'd be much opposition to military intervention.

I feel very sorry for the ordinary folk who are inevitably going
to end up getting caught up in the fall-out from this trouble. Just goes to show how unresolved political issues can grow into ugly situations.

Thank you for caring enough to provide this 'history' of Ukraine, but I think either that you are Russian, or that you have simply taken this from 'The Kindly Ones'.

First of all, it is 'Ukraine', NOT 'The Ukraine'. To say 'the' is tantamount to calling Wales, 'The Welshy rump that belongs to England'. Plus, it has no legal significance, so is plain wrong on more than one level.

Next, the Ukrainian nationalists did indeed fight alongside the Germans when they invaded, as their hatred for the Soviets was greater. Frankly, Stalin's accomplishments in Ukraine alone - never mind the purges - make Hitler look cuddly. So Ukrainians had good reason to hate. There can be no question that they also succumbed to the horrific anti-semitism of the period, but again, this is closely linked with their (mistaken) belief that the Jews sided with the Bolsheviks.

Then again, Russia already [i]is[/i] in. The Russians know no bounds to their imperialistic designs, and they see Ukraine as key to their status as an empire. Putin has been pulling Yanukovych's strings since before he was elected.

Finally, the East/West divide is hugely over-exaggerated. Even the people on Yanukovych's own 'turf', Dnipropetrovsk, have joined in by stopping the troop-carrying trains.

I will try to post some links later that give a more accurate picture of Ukraine and the issues involved here. In the meantime,

????? ???????!

Re the C4 tweets, I hope it is the end and not the beginning.

Guardian reporting tweets of parliament pulling troops back.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

Thank you for caring enough to provide this 'history' of Ukraine, but I think either that you are Russian, or that you have simply taken this from 'The Kindly Ones'.

To be fair to bowglie, my Grandfather was one of the nicest least prejudiced people you could ever meet, but even he described the Ukrainians of the time as utter savages. This coming from a man that spent time in concentration camps in Germany and Siberia and viewed the Germans (the "enemy") as just doing their job.

Ps. can we have Lvov back?

Opposition MPs celebrate the passing of a resolution urging the authorities to desist from shooting and withdraw police forces and the army from Kiev. Dozens of members of President Yanukovych's Party of the Regions also backed the resolution.

Some positive news at last at the end of a very grim day

Thank you for that, shermer75. You have genuinely made my night. I had not read that.

To be fair to bowglie, my Grandfather was one of the nicest least prejudiced people you could ever meet, but even he described the Ukrainians of the time as utter savages. This coming from a man that spent time in concentration camps in Germany and Siberia and viewed the Germans (the "enemy") as just doing their job.

It's funny how Poles, Latvians, Finns, Czechs, South Georgians, Ukrainians, Manchurian Chinese and Chechens all dislike Russians though isn't it?

well whod a thunk it Julia Tymoshenkos gonna be freed
and Yanukovich has fled, theyve even over run his private zoo?!!

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The Ukraine - where will it all end?

It's a symptom of faux democracy, giving the population a vote, but actually having a political elite who decide things and follow a party line imposed from above.

Top down politics makes the population subjects of the state, rather than free citizens.

Now where else can I think off that is trying to get out of such an arrangement....? 🙂

yanukovichs disneyland
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html

Was watching the news earlier, showed Julia Tymoshenkos in a car, being driven (back to Kiev?), and Yanukovitch posturing on TV, while the whole Ukraine parliament has deposed him as leader, and the public are being given tours around his s****y country mansion! Looks like, hopefully, the country may be able to stabilise, install a more democratic leader who's popular with the people as a whole, all without Putin sending the tanks in.
Although, I don't think even he'd be quite so stupid to pull a stunt like that these days.
Fingers crossed things calm down, it was getting very ugly.
And as for an earlier post, I've been perfectly aware of what's been going on in Thailand, I've seen and heard the news reports.
Not been aware of the problems in Venezuela, though; I thought their government was generally supported by the people. Maybe that's why the Argentine government has been fairly quiet recently, they're nervously watching what goes on in their own neighbourhood.

install a more democratic leader who's popular with the people as a whole

Is that even possible? As I understood it there is a pretty big internal split between the more EU looking 'Western' Ukrainians and the more Russian sympathetic Eastern ones.

I think there's a real worry that some of the right wing militia types that have been part of the uprising might cause trouble now

And as dodgy as yanukovich was a lot of people voted for him and aren't happy with tymoshenko and I don't see that Putin will just walk away

I bet that Assads also been made more nervous by all of this

Saying all that had a Facebook chat with Ukrainian ex colleague today as it's her birthday and she's absolutely extatic that yanukovich has gone

Overall Ukraine is better off with Russia than EU. At least huge Russian market is open for their produce plus energy special rates. Granted they have problems etc, but once power changes those very problems will come back. EU will not fix them nor they are interested. Its more like Ukraine open its market to EU, i struggle to see how will they compete with EU countries on markets.
Deffinately they will get tonnes of loans to buy Renault tractors, VAG cars, Danish pork, Spanish tomatoes, Irish beef etc etc ... to eventually finish and kill off their own industries. They will get juicy transit gas rates for some time, but one must remember those monies would disappear quickly in corruption circles plus Russia builds direct gas pipes underneath Baltic sea to Germany. Ordinary people property bills would triple if they start to pay EU energy prices instead of *mates rates*.
EU isn't financially strong to pull whole of Ukraine out of its own mess, nor do they really need. It looks more like they actually could capture more markets for their own benefit than help Ukrainians.
Very murky waters indeed, never mind posturing political stances.

I get the impression some of the locals are keen on independence 😉

I think what Ukrainians want is an end to rule by corrupt oligarchs

They see that Poland was in a similar post Soviet state to them and they have moved toward the EU and the west as a result their economy and way of life has improved massively

The Ukraine has been stuck in the Russian way- a few very rich oligarchs hoarding the wealth (their cabinet if millionaires makes ours look like paupers and we are a far richer country) I know that their universities and research are hamstrung by post Soviet corruption and nepotism

For all the faults and woes of Europe the Ukrainians have tried the Russian way and it left them poor, crime ridden and oppressed

My only claim to fame my "friend" was once married to Yulia Tymoshenko's daughter...

[img] [/img]

Eugenia?

"When hopes and dreams are loose in the streets, it is well for the timid to lock doors, shutter windows and lie low until the wrath has passed. For there is often a monstrous incongruity between the hopes, however noble and tender, and the action which follows them. It is as if ivied maidens and garlanded youths were to herald the four horsemen of the apocalypse." - Eric Hoffer, The True Believer.