[Closed] The Tube is planning for driverless trains

As the article says, Central, Victoria and Jubilee line trains already run ATO so drivers on those lines are paid £40k+ just to sit there and open and close the doors. DLR is fully automated and works fine.

*Pulls up a comfy wingback.*

It's the way forward.

I wonder what the ratio "human" accident occurance to "automated driver" accident occurance is.

I thought the Jubilee Lines doors opened automatically rather than "driver initiated"

Of course my thoughts are all subjective and not based on any facts whatsoeverlike.

DLR is fully automated and works fine.

It's not 'fully automated'. Requires a Passenger Service Agent to ensure safety an ting. And when the wonderful automatic system has a hiccup, which happens very frequently, the PSA's have to then manually operate the train.

drivers on those lines are paid £40k+ just to sit there and open and close the doors

Oh, you've done the job and you know this then, do you?

No, thought not.

*Pulls up a comfy wingback.*

Got to go out soon Flashy; be a good chap and keep the pot warm for us won't you? ta.

Are these the guys who were able to secure a 5% salary increase recently, pushing their earings up in the region of 50k pa?

Extrapolating, I don't see why ALL trains can't be driverless. Why only tubes? All they can do is accelerate and brake.

It will be a lot more difficult, but I believe one of the great technological advances of the 21st century will be driverless cars. Imagine just being able to drive to the top of a hill, then send your car back down to meet you at the bottom.

Maybe we should encourage more women to be train drivers... it's not like they need to park the trains...

Surely we should be able to include pilots in this too, after all pilots don't do anything either, except when there is an emergency... 😕

The existing automated lines do not run like this all the time - the drivers regularly have to take control.

The automated system runs during "normal" conditions, but when there is any change from these, control is returned to the drivers. The most common reason for this is low-adhesion conditions on the rails for the overground sections (rain, leaves on the line, etc.). I used to be involved in developing some of the hardware/software which was part of the decision-making process in handing back manual control.

Are these the guys who were able to secure a 5% salary increase recently, pushing their earings up in the region of 50k pa?

I thought it was £60k? No, £70k? £80k? £Some other vastly inflated made-up figure that the right-wing media claim?

No?

No.

No what?
No 50k or no 5% salary increase?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23993740-tube-driver-pay-to-top-pound-50000.do

£52k ACTUALLY ELFIN! Ridonkulous!!

Just, no, Don.

" The new generation of trains will "prepare themselves for service - even to the extent of arriving from depots unaided, perhaps eventually operating in certain areas without staff on board"

But:

driverless trains and station staff cuts "would leave passengers stranded in tunnels with no means of evacuation" and would turn the platforms and stations into a "paradise" for muggers and vandals.

Hmmm...

Ahhh the "leaves on the line" thread apears..

Today we stopped at a red light, only for the driver to pass through it on red.. Is this part of the manual handing back scenario?

If you ask me, oh you didn't oh well, all trains should be automated, maight make the fekin things run on time.

Ok, now I've said it.

"sits back with coffee and krispykreamedoughnut in hand"

Just, no, Don.

All trains should have a driver, and they should be paid what they can agree with their employers.
But I think the systems managing the trains should be improved to ensure running on time 100%.

they cant come soon enough...

£52k ACTUALLY ELFIN! Ridonkulous!!

Thats a LOT of wedge for driving a train..

Please let's not remind the right w(h)ingers that some scummy working class prole train drivers earn quite a bit more than they do. It got them into rather an excited froth the last time. 🙂

So when everyone's job is automated, and the remaining three or four jobs that can't be are so oversubscribed that they only have to pay peanuts due to supply and demand (capitalism, innit) what are we all going to do then? Those of us that aren't sure rich, that is... Will it be a utopia? Or the end?

v8ninety - lol
its obvious, they will offshore the work.
when I say they I mean the Chinese 🙂

At some point surely everything will be automated.

At the moment its difficult to automate jobs that require thinking but it cant be too far away.

What happens then we the world be perfect and we'll all have infinite leisure time or will we all be on the dole.

Which means we could ride our bikes longer.. or play with our willies (more).

has nobody seen Wall-E? drinking my dinner out of a cup whilst floating around on hover chairs... bring it on!

I was replaced by a machine some 25 years ago, cheese has never been the same since.

Ohhh yeah, he of the space ship controlling everything cos' humans get in the way??

Brill that.

At some point surely everything will be automated.

my posts are

Elfins seems to be on a rather early Sinclair with Tourettes and a few glitches

I wish I had used one that had a full keboard

If/when it happens I wonder if the drivers will ask themeselves why so many people cheer at the thought of them losing their jobs?

can't the automate footballers? they earn too much.

automate anyone who earns more than me and anyone i dont like.

I feel sorry for the Bus Drivers, they should be on the same money. More actually because they have to steer and spot idiot cyclists.

Bob Crow would look a bit silly if he priced them out of their jobs.

automate anyone who [s]earns more than me and anyone i dont like[/s] is overpaid and goes on strike at the drop of a hat.

Fixed

Why is it we don't have any sympathy for them?

<whispers.....I earn more than a Tube driver>

More actually because they have to steer and spot idiot cyclists.

tails - Member
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23993740-tube-driver-pay-to-top-pound-50000.do

£52k ACTUALLY ELFIN! Ridonkulous!!

Did you read the article? Lots of 'worst' case scenario calculations hence language like:

Tube drivers are [b]set to[/b] earn £52,000-a-year in basic pay under an inflation-busting deal - double the annual average wage.

Unions have secured a four-year deal which [b]could see[/b] train drivers take home a total of £52,300 a year by 2015, an increase of £10,000.

For the following three years annual increases will be based on the Retail Price Index (RPI) - [b]currently running at five per cent[/b] - plus 0.5 per cent.

It means that [b]if inflation stays high[/b] Tube pay will increase by 20 per cent over the four years.

Then, buried (as always) in the last paragraph:

[Union leaders have always been against a multi-year deal but took the decision to lock into the RPI-linked deal now because ministers want future pay increases to be linked instead with the lower Consumer Price Index (CPI).

So bottom line, blame the tories. Whoop!

I think they should carry on employing the tube drivers but allocate them none driving duties.

I'd recommend that three tube drivers are posted on each tube platform to remind cockneys of their obligations.

"Do NOT make eye contact"
"Keep your iMusic players on"
"Look miserable"
etc.

Many would argue that these suggestions are superfluous but every little helps I always find.

Further down the line (sic) we could employ tube drivers to keep an eye on everyone by watching them through carefully modified TV screens.

There is no choice but to automate.

Levels of service and quality will be vastly improved and the grossly inflated wages for doing unskilled work can be put towards better trains, advanced infrastructure and facilities.

scu98rkr - Member
At some point surely everything will be automated.

At the moment its difficult to automate jobs that require thinking but it cant be too far away.

What happens then we the world be perfect and we'll all have infinite leisure time or will we all be on the dole.

That's what "they" said in the fifties, what happened?

That's what "they" said in the fifties, what happened?

Elfin. The comment about stations becoming lawless was by bob crow. That well known impartial observer of the railways.

I think the Pay should be proportiante to the level of responsibility - ergo £52K for having the responsibility for the safety of several hundred passengers seems fair - obviously the trade off is the possibility of being to blame for several hundred deaths when it all goes tits up.

I'd rather have a driver/operator paid a "high wage" - sat there doing nowt 90% of the time but trained to deal with emergencies, rather than blindly trusting in technology, which does on occasion fail...

Is £52K too much? maybe I don't drive a train (I do ride in them on occasion), it's more than I earn but then if I have a Bad day at the office the odds of a death occuring are much less than they are for a Train driver.

In my business the term SQEQ (Suitably Qualified and Experienced Personnel) Pops up very often, I'd imagine that term or one very similar is applicable to a £52K train driver, Control and Safety systems are only as good as the Designers make them, they seldom learn through experience, and only ever deal with emergencies which were in the original Specification, when something outside their scope occurs they lack the imagination to get thigs right....

I'd much rather have a Human involved in the decision making process if possible...

Bob Crow would look a bit silly if he priced them out of their jobs.

The trains will be eventually be automated no matter what. Even if the drivers were earning £25,000. I bet the people staffing the ticket offices are nt earning as much as the drivers and they are still being replaced.

Granted it might take a couple more years before it becomes economical to replace them but they'd still be replaced.

To me it makes sense for the tube drivers might as well get as money they can before they are replaced.

Generally its much better if you can get as much money as soon as possible.

Ie 50,000 in one year is probably worth £75,000 over three years or something like that.

This is because you can put the money straight into a mortgage or savings therefore avoid interest charges.

Plus there is always the possibility of getting another job in the other two years. Therefore you might earn £100,000 in total over the three years.

And then if your earning £25,000 in London your probably renting. If your earning £50,000 you might be able to buy. If you manage to pay off a mortgage before they automate the trains your'll likely be fine no matter what.

Therefore im not convinced those who accept a drop in their pay to allow their company to continue trading are doing the right thing. If they need to be paid less, it is likely company is going to try and close down and move abroad at some point no matter.

So you might as well get as much money out of them as quickly as possible and save it before trying to move on to something else.

The PROBLEM is the people at the top often understand this kind of reasoning instinctively. The people at the bottom tend to think well if I help the company a little now it will help me later, which is perfectly normal reasoning for a human social situations. But the company is nt a person and doesnt abide by these rules.

Nice post cookeaa, pretty much agree with that.

I'd much rather have a Human involved in the decision making process if possible...

Unfortunately, when humans are involved, mistakes happen.

I'd much rather have a Human involved in the decision making process if possible...

Oh I don't know, I think I'd prefer google driving my car to some of the local mini-cab drivers.

£52k ACTUALLY ELFIN! Ridonkulous!!

Do you have a link to an article other than in a right-wing rag? Y'know, just for balance, like...

And one which is more in line with the [i]average[/i] tube driver's salary, not some figure concocted from adding together all the possible additional pay that it is 'possible' for a driver to get. Got any figures of the number of drivers who are actually on that figure? No, thought not...

Also; have you considered the cost of living in London? [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region10.stm ]Average house price is around four hundred and nineteen [i]thousand[/i] pounds[/url]. The average London salary is only slightly less than the average tube drivers salary (or more, depending on what figures you use).

So, stop those knees jerking and try to put things into perspective.

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot; it's purpose is to provoke 'debates' online which ultimately lead to mention of that rag oh look it's happened! 😯

Amazing what they can do with technology these days. Automate people's minds so they don't have to think for themselves....

Unfortunately, when humans are involved, mistakes happen.

until automated systems start designing themselves, there's always going to be a human to blame at the end of the line

Ah the Daily Mail defence! 🙄

Same article on BBC, Guardian, Independent, Yahoo.......

There's a lefty poll here -
Best get clicking.
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/oct/25/tube-lines-transport [/url]

Why is it we don't have any sympathy for them?

Who's 'we'? You're not speaking for me mate, or loads of other people. So don't assume you are.

In fact I doubt you're ultimately even speaking for yourself. Judging by many of your posts, I'm not sure you're actually capable of [i]thinking[/i] for yourself to be perfectly honest. Mind you, that would be asking quite a bit for a bot...

[b]TFL: Let's see how cheaply we can run the Tube, and how we can maximise profits.[/b]

[b]RMY: Let's see how we can get the Tube to run for the maximum benefit of passengers and staff.[/b]

That's about the bottom line, profit v people. As it generally is in our society.

I'm with people, cos without them, you woon't have any profit...

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot

And the abuse starts.

Don't get me wrong, sparkeys magic string and flashy lights are the business, I've seen PLCs driving Plants that look like "WOPR" out of War Games.

But the more you automate control of any system, the more contingencies and Hazards you need to consider, and the more labourious and complex commisioning and maintenance become what degree of redundant safety systems do you need are all the sensors and switches used to the correct SIL rating there are a lot of "What Ifs" to consider, it becomes even more fraught when you have metal tubes full of humans traveling at 80mph, not changing a Proxy or a Pressure relief valve properly during maintenance could well make a "Lowly" worker responsible for 200 odd dead people not everyone wants to get on par with a war criminal just for trying to do their job.

There is no choice but to automate.

Levels of service and quality will be vastly improved and the grossly inflated wages for doing unskilled work can be put towards better trains, advanced infrastructure and facilities.

Ah yes the enevitable march to a brave new future, all well and good but when you posh bollocks train is stuck in the yard because the clever widget to fix it hasn't arrived from Japan it sort of knackers your point...

Mass transit systems need to be robust and maintainable both from a Safety perspective and to ensure best possible availability for service, Bells and whistles and replacing the Driver with Jonny 5 will not improve Service.

the trains in lyon work perfectly well without drivers, as do the dlr. It might cost a lot to implement (i've no idea on this kinda thing) but it seems that driverless trains should be pretty straightforwards compared to other technology. I was always told as a kid that a train can take a mile to stop. if that's true, then there really is no reason to have a driver (unless they've got *really good* eyesight)

There is no choice but to automate.

Got any figures of the number of drivers who are actually on that figure? No, thought not...

Got any of your own to suggest otherwise?

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

Ah so only the left is telling the truth. Thats very open-minded of you.

Dont get me wrong - I think a Tube drivers job cant be all that pleasant to put it mildly..but I do like to see a reasoned discussion of things rather than a rant..but hey this is the interweb & this is STW...

Come on elf if you want to change folks minds dont rant or stereotype. Be reasoned & smart otherwise your opinion looks like the work of ranting leftie..

it becomes even more fraught when you have metal tubes full of humans traveling at 80mph, not changing a Proxy or a Pressure relief valve properly during maintenance could well make a "Lowly" worker responsible for 200 odd dead people not everyone wants to get on par with a war criminal just for trying to do their job.

Works fine with metal tubes with 500 people on board flying at 500mph.

have you seen The terminator

Really? That's what you are worried about?

Really?

😯

thinking about it, would the best place to automate trains perhaps be on remote lines, with few passengers? that way, instead of having, say, 4 of 2 coach trains a day, you could run 8 1 coach trains, without any driver based costs?

[img] [/img]

Did you read the article?

No!! I was just stoking the coal fire! Now if the trains ran on coal I think £52k would be fair!

Got any of your own to suggest otherwise?

yes:

[url= http://www.****/news/article-138486/Tube-drivers-vote-strike.html ]Mr Mason said the three per cent would take the average Tube driver's salary to more than £31,000 a year.
[/url]

[url= http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Tube_Driver_3207 ]The average salary for a Tube Driver in the UK is: £35,856[/url]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/09/tube-strike-london-underground-faq ]a tube driver's starting salary is just over £40,000, according to TfL[/url]

[url= http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/103142/london_underground/ ]Current Pay:£42,424.00[/url]

From a range of sources, left and right wing, and quite confuddling.

I don't see any mention of figures of £52k for ALL tube drivers though, do you?

IE, media sensationalism to make headlines once more.

Hence, get some perspective, think things through a bit first, don't make yer mind up at the first opportunity.

Ah so only the left is telling the truth. Thats very open-minded of you.

Please find where I've categorically stated this.

I'm going out now to meet Bully. Have fun while I'm gone! 😀

I don't see any mention of figures of £52k for ALL tube drivers though, do you?

Rant rant rant rant rant. Here we go again, if you don't agree with me you are stupid or a Daily Mail stooge. Shut up you idiot.

Anyway your house calculator thingy, there were a lot of cheaper houses than £419k and as I imagine the tube drivers get cheaper travel?? they can easily not live in kensington.

Does anyone know the actual wage for a tube driver doing an 8 hour day?

DLR accident

"On 10 March 1987, before the railway opened, a test train crashed through station buffer stops at the original high-level terminus Island Gardens station and was left hanging from the end of the elevated track. The accident was caused by unauthorised tests being run before accident-preventing modifications had been installed. [b]The train was being driven manually at the time[/b]"

Oops!

Please find where I've categorically stated this.

This just about covers it..

And stop reading the right-wing gutter press if you actually want to learn proper stuffs.

Hence, get some perspective, think things through a bit first, don't make yer mind up at the first opportunity.

Not made up in the slightest. I just cant stand biased rants. Your post was in danger of becoming one..

Now that your posting some facts they become worth reading..just.. 😉

 

Works fine with metal tubes with 500 people on board flying at 500mph.

When that PRV goes on a modern passenger plane under Autopilot though the Pilot is informed and knows what to do (You'd hope), when there are 3 or 4 Concurrent failures to go with it Flight crews are well enough trained to deal with these things with or without the supposedly infalable computer, aviation control systems are there to Present information and accomodate the crews decisions not overide them or cut them out of the loop.

There's every possibility that the fault scenarios considered in the design of this Hypothetical Train of the Future are not the only one that will occur in service, that is when you need a trained Human!
Both means of controling a vehicle are imperfect, humans have the imagination and experience to make better decisions than a bit of software which only has it's latest patch to "Learn" from, Computers don't panic but they also only operate within their programming...

I can't actually see service being improved but even if it were I also can't see that as a sufficient justification for retiring the meat sack behind the control desk - Safety has to be the overiding consideration.
You don't hear people after rail crashes saying
[I]"It was a horrific accident, 100s of people are dead. But on the Plus side the train did arrive 2 minutes ahead of schedule"[/I]
do you?

Anyway before they sort out the people to computer ratio, surely they should make it possible for a person in a wheelchair to be able to use the tube!

I don't have the time or energy to read all of that but I can say that the metro in Copenhagen is driverless and seems to work fine 🙂

The £52k isnt a statement of current salaries, its a projected salary after the 5% increases are applied in the next five years.

There are many modern driverless train systems that operate perfectly well in many parts of the world, but in the UK I dont have the confidence that we could implement one effectively and safely.

With the unions wanting their members looked after and the management wanting to maximise profit, I dont see safety being the primary concern in both parties, despite their rhetoric.
As they dont seem to be working together how can they implement a safe system for anything.

I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot

And the abuse starts.

That's not abuse, that's just a vaguely humorous opinion.

Shut up you idiot.

Now that was the point at which the abuse started.

Oh the ironing.

There's every possibility that the fault scenarios considered in the design of this Hypothetical Train of the Future are not the only one that will occur in service, that is when you need a trained Human!
Both means of controling a vehicle are imperfect, humans have the imagination and experience to make better decisions than a bit of software which only has it's latest patch to "Learn" from, Computers don't panic but they also only operate within their programming...

You mean like lifts?

Sancho - Member
The £52k isnt a statement of current salaries, its a projected salary after the 5% increases are applied in the next five years.

There are many modern driverless train systems that operate perfectly well in many parts of the world, but in the UK I dont have the confidence that we could implement one effectively and safely.

With the unions wanting their members looked after and the management wanting to maximise profit, I dont see safety being the primary concern in both parties, despite their rhetoric.
As they dont seem to be working together how can they implement a safe system for anything.

I'd have to agree with that, I was recently working with a contractor Who had some wonderful stories some of which concerned design work he'd been involved in for control panel equipment for London Underground, He reckoned absolutely everything in the trains control area had to be fitted with anti tamper fixings because the drivers simpley couldn't be trusted not to sabotage their own train if they wanted a day off...

How true that anecdote is I don't know but it doesn't appear to be a healthy working relationship between management and workers...

aviation control systems are there to Present information and accomodate the crews decisions not overide them or cut them out of the loop

Not 100% true, modern aviation control systems are taking decisions away from the Pilot to stop him making a decision or manouvere which would put the plane in jeopardy.

I think the Channel Tunnel is the best we should hope for, its centrally controlled but has drivers to manage any issues that may arise.

scu98rkr - what you're struggling there with is called Net Present Value - just need to know your Internal Rate of Return. Trouble is as you don't understand that it's probably best not to set yourself up as an amateur economist. 😉

So youre on your tube train, being driven by a computer, with no intelligence, or sight, and it catches fire, crashes, comes off the track, etc etc, who is going to tell the passengers what to do and protect the other lines for other trains.

Trains do crash and are sometimes allowed to crash due to negligence or malicious persons, how can a computer be made to deal with that.

This won't be happening for quite some time due to extensive remodelling of the network being required on both the track and signalling side of things.

Don't expect to see much happening before mid 2013 and thats just the remodelling works

I'm still trying to work out how there would leaves on the track of an underground railway?...

The leaves stick to the bogie wheels, and as most trains are disc braked, theres no brake block to clear them off, so the train skids or slides when stopping or starting off, this can cause the train to pass a signal at danger eg on RED.It also stops the train being detected by the track circuiting devices.