[Closed] The TTIP leak

I'd read some stuff on boingboing back when this was just getting started, and there was nothing good about it in the hints that were coming out then. The idea that any company or organisation can be sued into the ground by a US company just because they think their profits might be threatened, and the sodding EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent.

it almost makes me want to vote leave...

It's not like the UK has much of a track record of deploying a backbone when dealing with the US either though, is it?

The only thing shocking about an unelected EU politician with executive powers saying [i]"I do not take my mandate from the European people"[/i] is that some people should be surprised by the revelation.

One of the principle roles of the EU is to trample on democracy.

molgrips - Member

Having had a bit of a read, it almost makes me want to vote leave...

This isn't an EU thing, this government'd be all over it regardless. It's not just doing what the US wants, it's what they're into too.

The TTIP is a trade agreement between the European Union and the United States.

I don't see what the issue is around TTIP and the EU commission. They know what's best for us all.

Can't believe there are people who are still unaware of TTIP, perhaps they'd prefer an NHS run by USA companies.

Well... the reason this is in the news is that the French are likely to block the whole thing. Our own government wouldn't.

So I guess that it is kind of working... sort of...

I knew about TTIP btw but I wasn't aware of the secrecy.

I don't see what the issue is around TTIP and the EU commission.

Well one of the issues is that not everyone thinks the negotiations should be kept secret.

Although the unelected EU politician who claims "I do not take my mandate from the European people" thinks the negotiations aren't secret enough :

[i]EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström has said that no more reports on TTIP negotiations will be sent to Member States because of "important vulnerabilities in the last rounds of negotiations".[/i]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ttip-controversy-secret-trade-deal-can-only-be-read-secure-in-reading-room-in-brussels-10456206.html ]Secret trade deal can only be read in secure 'reading room' in Brussels[/url]

EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent

Apart from that, yeah, it's all set to sail through.

Old news.

Last time I checked, Cameron was foaming at the mouth to get it passed through. Quelle surprise.

"EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent"

Apart from that, yeah, it's all set to sail through.

To be fair to CountZero the rubber-stamp European Parliament has voted in favour of TTIP :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-wont-know-this-but-a-very-important-ttip-vote-happened-in-europe-this-week-10380530.html ]You won't know this, but a very important TTIP vote happened in Europe this week[/url]

Quote :

[i]The European Parliament voted by a majority of 436 to 241 to pass a resolution on the secret EU-US trade deal, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). By voting yes MEPs effectively gave their stamp of approval for the deal to go ahead, in spite of repeated and widespread protest from their own constituents. Protests which have repeatedly been ignored.[/i]

If however the point you're making is that the EU Parliament, the one EU body which people actually vote for, is inconsequential, then yeah, I would go along with that.

Priority number one for the states to get the backward Euopeans 😉 on the same page! Oh and tax haven reform! Kinda de Sepp Blattering/Berlusconing Europe so they can get their straight shooters in!

Yeah I agree our little turd slurpers would be on it like a car bonnet "anything you say Mr President"

Ernie I was being a little sarcastic there. Cameron needs TTIP cause the commission and the USA want it, he actually has no idea what the full agreement contains. Large companies suing governments for loss of profits on governments policies that cost the companies profit, in secret by the way. Why do you think Obama was so keen to say we need to stay in the EU? It's cause it insures that our government will back TTIP. The French will do what Germany wants and ignore the rules that don't suit them.

Ernie I was being a little sarcastic there.

Yes thanks, I was aware. Although I think you might have missed me using the opportunity which your sarcastic comment provided to further focus on the secret nature of TTIP.

The secrecy surrounding TTIP is a damning indictment of the EU and its profoundly anti-democratic character.

ernie_lynch - Member

The TTIP is a trade agreement between the European Union and the United States.

And do we think that the UK would be left out of it all if we weren't in the EU? Or would we just get our own little TTIP, possibly less nice since we're so much smaller and famously obsessed with cozying up to the USA.

Those trade deals with the US people keep saying we'd make, if we left the EU. Aye.

I raised this on one of the Referendum threads, huge hostility to TTIP from French and Germans (obviously as soon as I raised it I was challenged by the usual suspects "source required" etc). Campaign groups like 38 Degrees have been trying to rally support to challenge it too.

@Del Hillary will ratify it certainly, Trump will try and get more

@Northwind we seem to have done ok without a trade deal with the US, I'm sure we'd manage if thats the way things went.

Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don't join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.

As much as I don't like many EU policies and practices, leaving will not be good for this country.

Obama says we'll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave. He said that I did not make it up. Now I'm not fully sure wether it's in or leave but on thing I do know trade deals are over rated. We (UK and EU) manage now without one for many countries but then I digress in facts, speak as an exporting company of manufactured goods. How do we deal with the USA now? What does the world trade organisation do? I'd also just mention that the USA is one of the worst offenders in the developed (what does that really mean) of trade barriers and protectionist activities.

TTIP is pretty bad, even some in the USA are un happy with it, if we stay in the EU we are getting it. Your NHS will be one of he main targets. As all things done behind closed doors and labelled secret, there is something to hide. Major companies are clamouring to get this through, it'll put companies that are big enough above governments and democracy (not matter how flawed). Have a look on the 38degrees website about TTIP.

Am not going to discuss this anymore as we are all doooooooooooomed, seriously.

The TTIP is probably 80% of why I currently think "leave" is the best option.

Obama says we'll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave.

For just one example, look at how Philip Morris has been with Australia over its tobacco "plain packaging" law. They first launched a case against the Aussie government from within Australia. At the same time they launched a case from their Hong Kong HQ so it could do the same under one of these secret arbitration courts provided by an Investor State Dispute Settlement instrument available under the "1993 Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of Hong Kong for the Promotion and Protection of Investments (Treaty)". I understand that these arbitration courts will have likely originally been in place as a way to protect a company's investments against errant national governments, but it has already been seen that if their use can be subverted then it will be. See also Philip Morris' similar actions against Uruguay and Norway, and others [url= http://www.isdscorporateattacks.org/#!attacks/c1cm0 ]here[/url].

If you don't think the same will happen to EU member governments under the same ISDSs provided for by the TIPP then I'd be interested to hear why not.

Here's what the lizards are up to, agree if it were the UK alone we would have signed up long ago.

This short introduction gives you the main arguments why TTIP and CETA are a threat to so many things we value and need – in less than five minutes. So let’s begin:
The EU soon intends to sign two far-reaching trade agreements: One with Canada (CETA = Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement) and one with the USA (TTIP = Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership). The official line is that these will create jobs and increase economic growth. However, rather than citizens, it’s much more likely that only big corporations will benefit from them. Here are the main reasons why:

Investors will be able to sue states. The so-called Investor-State-Dispute-Settlement (ISDS) – even in it’s new disguise as the EU’s “Investment Court System” (ICS) model – will grant foreign investors (i.e. Canadian and US companies) the right to sue European states if they believe that laws or measures of the EU or any member state have damaged their investments and reduced their expected profit. This will also affect laws and measures enacted in the interest of the common good, such as environmental and consumer protection.
Corporations will be invited to co-write new laws. The so-called “regulatory cooperation” will allow representatives of big business and bureaucrats from both sides of the Atlantic to influence draft laws in expert groups even before these are discussed in elected parliaments. This undermines democracy!
Big business has excessive influence on the secret negotiations for CETA and TTIP. In 92% of all stakeholder meetings the EU Commission held in the preparatory phase for TTIP, only representatives of companies were heard. Only in very few cases consumer and trade union representatives were invited to share their views. Corporate influence persists during the negotiations: Even some wordings in draft texts leaked to the public originate directly from corporate lobbyists.
The negotiations are conducted in secret. Our public representatives know little about their progress, and the general public is not allowed to see any of the official agreement’s texts until the negotiations are finished. Parliamentarians are only allowed to read these long legal texts (the CETA agreement, for example, has about 1,500 pages) in especially designated reading rooms without expert help, and are not allowed to tell the public what they have read. Once the negotiations are finished, they can only accept or reject the agreements, without being able to ask for changes.
Food quality standards and consumer protection could be weakened. Through the alignment of regulations, for which TTIP aims, European standards are endangered, as the US standards are often substantially weaker. Also, the US side wants the EU to accept its approach to risk assessment, which would allow every product to be sold until the state was able to prove it to be harmful. So far, in Europe companies must prove the harmlessness of their products before bringing them on the market.
Workers’ rights and jobs are endangered. The USA still refuse to recognise basic rights for employees (it has only ratified two out of the eight ILO core labour standards), and the “race to the bottom” triggered by TTIP could become a danger for employee rights in the EU as well. Also, tougher competition from abroad could lead to massive job losses. A study published by Tufts University (USA) found that 600,000 jobs could be lost due to TTIP.
European countries would be falling under pressure to allow high-risk technologies such as fracking or GM technology. As part of TTIP and/or CETA, companies could be allowed to take governments to arbitrators if they regulate or ban high-risk technologies. In 2013, the oil and gas company Lone Pine filed a $250-million ISDS lawsuit against Canada, after the state of Quebec issued a moratorium on fracking. TTIP and CETA will pave the way for an ever increasing number of such lawsuits.
CETA and TTIP will further increase inequalities. Those already well off will profit most from CETA and TTIP. Big business will gain even more advantages over small and medium enterprises and citizens. The EU’s economic crisis is likely to deepen further, as the most competitive member states are expected to pocket most of the potential GDP increase. Countries on the EU’s periphery, that are already highly dependent on foreign capital, risk losing out on quality jobs and sustainable investment. On a global scale, inequality between developed and developing countries will increase further, with studies forecasting dramatic GDP drops and job losses in third countries.
Liberalisation and privatisation will become one-way streets. CETA and TTIP will make it more difficult – and probably even impossible – to return public utilities, hospitals, or waste collection to the public sector once they have been privatised.
CETA and TTIP want to increase the power of multinationals at the expense of democracy and the general good. We must not allow this to happen! Please support our European Initiative!

I don't get it, what's in it for the EU? Why are they (and the UK by all accounts) so desperate to sign up?

cheap bike parts, innit

Trade deals are driven by corperations, their lobbyists and shareholders who want aligned regulations so you can sell cars/ food/energy/bits and bobs etc made for the American market in the European market.

Its about a bigger market to sell into, arguably not a bad thing unless of course you allow the companies to write the regulations that should be there to protect people and worse still allow them to stop goverments putting new regulations ( say air quality standards) in place without compensating business who make money out of polluting the air.

Even in Luxembourg, essentially the creator of the EU concept, there's massive pushback from everyone, even those in parties traditionally supportive of the EU and all it brings.

One thing I'd never even imagined was the concept of "investor courts"

The newspaper focussed on a controversial TTIP proposal to set up private investor courts that would allow multinational companies to sue governments if they deem public policy to hinder fair competition.

Mental. Utterly mental. Although the EU says it's off the table, the Americans have rejected that and it's not been revisited.

Even in Luxembourg, essentially the creator of the EU concept, there's massive pushback from everyone, even those in parties traditionally supportive of the EU and all it brings.

I get the impression that TTIP is so unpopular that any government that tries to ratify it will be committing electoral suicide.

Except ours, of course.

Obama says we'll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave.

Because if we're faced with the choice of waiting 10 years for a decent trade deal, or an immediate deal that is the international trade version of sharing a prison cell with Mike Tyson, then we (by which I actually mean the ruling oligarchy) will snap up the latter.

[quote=ratherbeintobago spake unto the masses, saying]Even in Luxembourg, essentially the creator of the EU concept, there's massive pushback from everyone, even those in parties traditionally supportive of the EU and all it brings.
I get the impression that TTIP is so unpopular that any government that tries to ratify it will be committing electoral suicide.
Except ours, of course.

How depressing is that - to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse 🙁

Reasons why I'm voting in
#1
The ttip has to be ratified by each member state of the EU.
#2
France won't ratify it.
#3
The UK would if it were on its own

How depressing is that - to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse

Sums up the EU debate quite nicely.

if we stay in the EU we are getting it

It looks like the opposite, actually - it's the rest of the EU that could save us from Cameron and his scumbags. How's that feel?

@ocrider - I don't think the Germans are all that keen either.

Would anyone sane be keen?

ratherbeintobago - Member
@ocrider - I don't think the Germans are all that keen either

#4...

🙂

This must be the kind of thing that unaccountable bollox like the Bilderberg group rustle together behind closed doors, before scuttling away like vermin when the doors are opened.

How depressing is that - to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse

Why are they (and the UK by all accounts) so desperate to sign up?

The advantage of the EU is that given the numbers needed to ratify it, in the leaked form that is unlikely.
As others have said our current gov't would already have shafted us by signing it and some unelected gov't official would have had the same attitude to democracy.

I saw [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ttip-leak-could-spell-the-end-of-controversial-trade-deal-say-campaigners-a7009896.html ]this article[/url] about TTIP yesterday. It covers the usual ground (which is pretty awful stuff) but it also has this paragraph:

They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens. Representatives for each side appear to have found that they have run into “irreconcilable” differences that could undermine the signing of the landmark and highly controversial trade deal, campaigners say.

So while the current text of the TTIP is horrible and negotiating it in secret seems to be a terrible decision, if the two parties have “irreconcilable” differences about what should go in it, was there always a good chance that the horror stories were never going to make it into the finished treaty?

Hopefully as the light of public scrutiny is increasingly brought to bear the pressure on the EU negotiators to deliver something acceptable to the EU populace will increase further. Or it'll get added to the pile of stalled and abandoned free trade deals that is already pretty large and transatlantic trade will muddle along much as it has been for another few decades.

I'm still inclined to believe though that a UK government negotiating alone would just bend over and accept whatever the US first offered to it.

#3
The UK would if it were on its own

Good point wrecker, after all no recent Labour government has been excessively eager to please big business or the US. 🙄

That's over 10 years away according to POTUS

It depends. If Cameron says "That TTIP thing, we'll sign it as is" I bet it could go a lost faster.

Good point wrecker, after all no recent Labour government has been excessively eager to please big business or the US.

It depends. If Cameron says "That TTIP thing, we'll sign it as is" I bet it could go a lost faster.

#5

Wrecker doesn't agree 😉

Would anyone sane be keen?

This is my overriding question, too.

Wrecker doesn't agree

https://home.38degrees.org.uk/page/1/?s=TTIP

Loads of stuff here, this is not a left or right thing its about our right to democracy and for us to elect our own f..kwits to mess up our own countries laws without a set of greedy gits trying make laws to suit there own companies profits and pockets (in secret). I don't agree with much of what successive governments have done since about 1970 but at least I've had the chance to vote for the next lot to mess it up, I don't get to vote on the corporate world.

Would anyone sane be keen?

Well the big German manufacturing companies I suspect are gunning for the Yanks, and would love to have a freer rein in the their market, likewise our banks. There is also some sense and benefit in producing standards that apply to both US and Europe and then forcing the rest of the world to comply.

As for suing governments it already is happening, Vattenfall (Swedish) are taking the Germans to court for shutting their nuclear reactors. TBH if a government came in and shut your business, you'd be pretty p*ssed and want to fight it.

but its not about shutting a business, its about future profits not made by companies because maybe they want the NHS to remain state owned without privatisation. Perhaps a local council wants to remain in control of some of its services and and Big Inc say that stopping us growing or profits so gives us money. Elected bodies should be able to control their own policy without the interference of companies. Its a slippery slop to Robocop type stuff (wow I'm sounding like a nut job).

I don't get it, Wrecker.
You're anti EU, because you're anti ttip, but you'd agree that the more of us there are, the more reasons we have together as a trading block to protect our own interests?

Edit:
Mt, the tories love it because it's a one way street to a totally dismantled state. The robocop scenario isn't that much of an exaggeration of the possible future, they already have private policing in gated communities around the world its only time before some bright spark tenders out their city's law enforcement to G4S.

You're anti EU, because you're anti ttip, but you'd agree that the more of us there are, the more reasons we have together as a trading block to protect our own interests?

TBH, how it's supposed to work is the bigger your trading block, the more power and influence you have. In this case it seems like it's more about getting everyone together so that they're more easily bulldozed.

The EU is the richest trading block in the world, that's why them over there want a bigger piece of the pie. They want to put bloody apples in it and take the lid off too and that's where the problem lies. [/pam ayres]

TTIP is big (distant) government and big companies in a union that kills democracy. At some point very soon (even if we stay in the EU) the commission will wonder why there is a ground swell of anti EU feeling that will really destabilise the whole EU, especially if you add some economic shock. Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal and even the real big one France (how will we solve EU youth unemployment). If it does all go off it will not be pretty for some. I'm starting to sound like a proper nut job UKipper.

I'd point out that I'm stuck in a heart head in/out thing, I don't approve of TTIP though.

If we're all in together, and everyone reaches the conclusion that it's not working at the same time (for example, this TTIP thing), then we'll all sit down and change things together.

If we start leaving one by one, then the leavers will be not working together, until the leavers get themselves organised and create a second EU. That might take a while though - after all it was 1500-odd years between the Western Roman Empire and the EU 🙂

big (distant) government and big companies in a union that kills democracy.

That's the crux of it for me. Sticking together against business to make things better for the people.

So to summarise - we're ****ed whichever way we vote?

...I'm off to live in a Tee Pee in a remote forest.

...I'm off to live in a Tee Pee in a remote forest.

That's the crux of it for me. Sticking together against business to make things better for the people.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a6695996.html ]Fabricated by John Hilary, says she[/url] "Although I am very aware, and I spend 80 per cent of my working time trying to address and to listen to the concerns of people[…]the mandate itself can only be changed by the member states. It is not in my hands.

“And from that [...] he has made this, a quote that I haven’t said.”

In brief, the EU commission can only propose and not impose. Which is where the democracy kicks in.

I don't believe a single word that comes out of her mouth personally, but YMMV. If you trust that by pushing TTIP through, that she is doing her best for all of us then you can continue to support her.

How depressing is that - to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse

That pretty much sums up the soft "left" attitude to the EU, ie, we need to stay in the EU to protect us from the British people's voting intentions - by being in the EU we can nullify general election results.

The EU might be overwhelmingly dominated by European conservative governments but they aren't as right-wing and nasty as our own conservatives, supposedly.

This defeatist argument by the Guardian-reading "left" who have given up on attempting significant electoral success is pisspoor for all manner of reasons, including that other European governments are unreliable when it comes to them protecting us from ourselves, since they take as a priority their own national interests first.

.

Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don't join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.

You won't be surprised to learn that I don't agree. Far from being "deluded" I consider my views much more realistic.

TTIP is reactionary and regressive. It shifts power away from accountable elected governments into the hands of corporations putting profits before all other considerations. Indeed opposition is so widespread that its successful conclusion is very far from guaranteed.

If however the TTIP stands any chance of success then the most realistic way this is likely to be achieved is via the back door of the fundamentally undemocratic EU, its unelected bureaucrats, a rubber-stamp parliament - which no one pays any attention to, and all shrouded in secrecy of course - away from meaningful public debate.

As my earlier link pointed out :

[EDITED] [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-wont-know-this-but-a-very-important-ttip-vote-happened-in-europe-this-week-10380530.html ]You won't know this, but a very important TTIP vote happened in Europe this week[/url]

And contrary to what the defeatist would have you believe right-wing Tories in the UK do not have electoral success guaranteed. Nor do they have a guaranteed carte blanche every time they form a government.

In the last 6 years that the Tories have been in government there has been an unprecedented amount of government U-turns and policy backtracking due to public opposition, including some in the last week.

And 25 years ago a Tory Prime Minister was kicked out of Downing Street despite having a huge majority in Parliament because of widespread opposition to her "flagship" policy.

You are seriously deluding yourself if you think that something as unpopular as TTIP has a 100% guaranteed chance of being implemented by a Tory UK government, as you claim.

Oh come on you could have got more guardian reading soft lefty references in a post of that length
I am disappointed in you, comrade

That said good posts

You are the only person criticising the EU whose opinions I actually read and value - I expect a witheringly sarcastic reply for that admission.

Why would this release make anyone vote leave?

The US prefers to deal with trading blocks not individual countries - and if this is the best the EU can deliver imagine how bad the deal with (obvious caveat aside) a single country would look

Be careful what you wish for...

Well Cameron is still all for TTIP

The prime minister said it would take “political courage to get it over the line” but the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) would be good for British people.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal

"back of the queue if out of EU"
"no deal for 10 years"
"we only deal with trading blocks"

Mmm horseshit

canny say I think TTIP is a good idea, sounds suspicious to say the least. But the idea that it would be somehow a land of honey were britain to negotiate trade deals all on it's own with every country in the world is insane. Britains bargaining power out of the EU would be pretty low, imo.

Britains bargaining power out of the EU would be pretty low, imo.

Hence why Obama said at the back of the queue eh.
Jamby we gets your politics and views on this issue but please dont pretend, for it makes you look foolish, that the UK alone is somehow more desirable than the EU.
It just sabre rattling Brexiter patriotic emotive pleads w there rather than reality.

They can all trade with us now but dont.

if this is the best the EU can deliver

Better to have no deal than this.

Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don't join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.

As much as I don't like many EU policies and practices, leaving will not be good for this country.

Anyone who thinks we won't sign up to something like TTIP or worse if we're out of the EU is frankly a moron.

Dodgy Dave is getting annoyed now, he's even starting statements with "Look" to emphasis his patience is running thin.

> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal

It's ok, all this idle speculation is wrong and TTIP is ace, says the government.

[Url= https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/119659?reveal_response=yes ]Linky[/url]

TTIP = NWO

unelected bureaucrats and a rubber-stamp parliament? sorry, were we talking about westminster?
who'd have thought the americans can sniff blood in the water from a shaky EU economy and are trying to strong-arm the best deal they can?
the civil servants of the EU will try to get the best they can.
whether or not the elected politicians on either side sign it off is a very different matter.

Anyone who thinks we won't sign up to something like TTIP or worse if we're out of the EU is frankly a moron.

Hard to know what the US position will be post the November Election, if Trump wins I can see him ripping up TTIP and starting again, he's not going to sign a "Democrat Trade Deal"

Oi Jambas, turn the computer off and enjoy the countryside. You've got the weather we missed!

Del - Member

unelected bureaucrats and a rubber-stamp parliament? sorry, were we talking about westminster?

Well obviously not. The Parliament in Westminster can propose its own legislation unlike the Strasbourg Parliament which can only rubber-stamp proposals put to it by unelected bureaucrats.

Did you really not know that?

it does take elected officials to pass things in to law, right?

I think I've made the point quite clearly.