[Closed] The Tories - for those of us old enough to remember 1st hand

>The reason people laugh at Osbourne is that he stopped using gideon to try not to look so posh. As have others of the tories changed their used name to avoid looking so posh although some have refused. there is no particular difference in how James or Gordon are seen.

=""He was a pupil at Westminster School and later studied at New College, Oxford, where he read Philosophy, Politics and Economics, and during which time he was elected as President of the Oxford Union. In later life, Benn attempted to remove public references to his private education from Who's Who; in the 1975 edition his entry stated "Education—still in progress". In the 1976 edition, almost all details of his biography were omitted save for his name, jobs as a Member of Parliament and as a Government Minister, and address; the publishers confirmed that Benn had sent back his draft entry with everything else struck through.[5] In the 1977 edition, Benn's entry disappeared entirely.[6] In October 1973 he announced on BBC Radio that he wished to be known as "Mr Tony Benn" and his book Speeches from 1974 is credited to 'Tony Benn'.

Yes, one Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn , formerly 2nd Viscount Stansgate.

The point about norway is that they had a large share in the north sea oil. during the 80s they spent their north sea oil on infrastructure and invested it for the future. We had / have more of the oil. Our oil bonanza was spent on paying people to do nothing for political dogma rather than supporting industry.

Without the oil money to spend in the 80s and selling off the assets of the country there would have been no "thatcher revolution" This money was wasted. We have nothing to show for it. we don't own our own infrastructure any more and we don't make stuff. Keeping the value of the pound artificially high thru the 80s ruined our industry.

The thacherite years ruined our economy. The worst crime tho was the waste of the oil money

I remember being forced to drink milk out of little bottles with a straw in that had sat around in the sun all morning, this would have been mid to late 70s.

Still can't face milk without adding Nesquik.

+1. Tho' eventually I made sure i was milk monitor and ensured my share was redistributed to people that wanted seconds.

I can't believe that people think that somehow one party or another will be able to steer the UK in an opposite direction to the ebbs and flows of the global economy that we are now, like it or not, wholly part of. There is little economic autonomy now left to national governments - most of it relates to how best they will protect the most vulnerable members of society. And here the choice is stark - Labour will try and the Conservatives won't try. Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

On an unrelated note: is Flasheart genuinely posh? I always thought he was an 80s arriviste. Standards have truly slipped! 😉

Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn , formerly 2nd Viscount Stansgate.

Is this supposed to be a counter argument?

I think the point is being made that the current bunch of Tories are attempting a bit of surface polish (or scuffing). Tony Benn on the other hand has always appeared to me (despite whatever else he may be) to be sincere in his beliefs.

It's a bit like comparing a post-op transexual with a bunch of drag queens.

Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

Yup 🙁

Another legacy of Thatcher.

>Is this supposed to be a counter argument?

TJ was asserting that Tories were changing their names so as not to appear "posh". Just pointing out that it cuts both ways, I agree completely that Tony Benn is sincere in his beliefs but that's nothing to do with the point I was making 🙂

Personally I"m not sure that there is any value in looking to the financial records of parties of 20 years ago as some indicator of future success.

The world has changed beyond recognition and so have the personalities making the decisions. +1 HeathenWoods for pointing out that globalisation makes everything different, but also the internet, dwindling resources, population growth AND changing aspirations. 20 years ago many people didn't even have a car and only expected the NHS to treat them for serious conditions. Now, people are up in arms about marginal increases in fuel prices and their access to multiple IVF cycles and esoteric cancer drugs.

If the economic successes and failures of yesterday meant anything then Beijing would still be full of people on bicycles, IBM would be the biggest company in the world, Detroit would still be a functioning city and Iceland would be a place where cod comes from.

Paraphrasing the words of James Brown "Come on, like a sex machine"... no no, sorry not that James Brown (anyone worked out why he uses Gordon yet?)... I meant to say "GET REAL"

And BTW, I'll be voting Lib Dem.

On the tag "is hora really that thick"? No. I went to University and I didn't leave with 15grand of debt+.

If I was 18 now though I wouldn't be able to afford to go.

Go figure. Idiot.

TJ was asserting that Tories were changing their names so as not to appear "posh". Just pointing out that it cuts both ways, I agree completely that Tony Benn is sincere in his beliefs but that's nothing to do with the point I was making

And TJ is right, and you miss the point. The Tories want to [b]appear[/b] not to be posh. Tony Benn wanted to [b]actually[/b] not be posh. Otherwise he'd have been Tony Benn of the Conservative party.

Sorry double post (deleted)

Sorry mistaken post (ammended)

If I was 18 now though I wouldn't be able to afford to go.

But I'm sure you would have been ralaxed about that, taking life as it comes? 🙂

Ah yes. Probably would have gone over to the Balkans...

I was named after a famous general which my father served under - and he wasn't British.

Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

Yup

Another legacy of Thatcher.

Really? Most of the people I meet with that sort of attitude are as far removed from Thatcherism as it is possible to get. Are you really saying that it was entirely her fault or simply that she created the environment for an inherently greedy population to pursue their non-altruistic goals unchecked?

Ah yes. Probably would have gone over to the Balkans...

I was raised in a very working class family, but you know what i can't stand the Labour party.

People moan about the Tory party and the fact that they look after their own, you don't think Labour do or did that? They hide behind the social fairness card and i don't believe a word of it. My wife and i work very hard, ask for nothing from the state other than a safe and clean place to live and all i seem to see is my tax revenues and others like me being given away to 'less fortunate' people than us, how is that fair?

I don't see any issue in making people stand on their own two feet, and i wonder which party will try to make that happen, certainly not labour.

TJ, to think that Labour would not have wasted billions of £ if they were in power in the Thatcher years is a joke. The unions would have run riot and got bigger and bigger and choked the economy, maybe less so than the wasted oil money, but at least we dont have hugely powerful unions throwing their weight around.

The reason people laugh at Osbourne is that he stopped using gideon to try not to look so posh. As have others of the tories changed their used name to avoid looking so posh although some have refused. there is no particular difference in how James or Gordon are seen.

Given he changed his name at 13, that shows a remarkable prescience.

80s arriviste, if Flash is the man I think he is he was still at school in the 80s and has suffered periods of unemployment despite being soemthing of a specialist in jobs, too posh to claim the dole though.

I just love Browns manifesto (describing what he'll do- which are pretty basic ideas)...

why haven't you already done this or doing this now?!

Annunziata Rees-Mogg:

[img] [/img]

Heh! I'd giver her both barrels....

I'm sorry; that was crass and insulting, and there was absolutely no need for it. It won't happen again. 😳

ask for nothing from the state other than a safe and clean place to live

But don't forget sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, and fresh-water.

I don't see any issue in making people stand on their own two feet

Not everyone is capable of this tho'. What do you want to do with them? Workhouses? Begging? Take away social security and which safety net do you want to use? Or do you just let people fall? Seriously, I'd like to know because, in my eternal optimism, I'd love to believe that there is no one in this country who'd just leave people to rot.

I also smile to myself who say they come from post WWII working class backgrounds and don't see how the welfare state (healthcare and education) might just have contributed to their upward mobility. But then I guess actual history doesn't matter if you're sitting pretty now and just want the biggest slice of the pie you can get.

all i seem to see is my tax revenues and others like me being given away to 'less fortunate' people than us

Try looking harder.

yabba yabba. Can anyone sell me a road bike?

Irrespective of political leanings - this thread confirms one thing:
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The 80's Tory Gov't was the most divisive in living memory.
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There's no middle ground on this thread - no posters saying "it wasn't too bad", or "could have been better". Some have positive memories and respect the legacy of "improved" (ie forced) industrial relations, but many have very negative and deeply bitter memories...
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Quite telling I think
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Someone above posted about bitter old men - get over it and on with you lives... As someone who "came of age" in the mid 80s I strongly refute that assertion. When it comes to Thatcher's Govt I am still an angry young man.
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And relevence for the election - I hope that the electorate will be able to discern the true values of each party and choose accordingly.
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If they choose Red, they know what to expect - more of the same with added austerity.
If they choose Blue - do they know what values they are signing up to?
If they choose Orange - hopefully there will be the chance to reform the whole shoddy system...

Someone above posted about bitter old men - get over it and on with you lives

it was the same person who said

yabba yabba. Can anyone sell me a road bike?

That double quote-post doesnt show an example of a contrast though.

On the tag "is hora really that thick"? No. I went to University and I didn't leave with 15grand of debt+.

Lucky you.

You do have a tendency to post very ignorant, blinkered opinions on subjects you clearly know bugger all about, though, and subsequently make yourself look a plonker. As you've done here. Yet again.

What did you study at University? I'll wager it wasn't politics, history, sociology, etc...

"That double quote-post doesnt show an example of a contrast though."
It does, however, show that without doubt, you are the end of a bell.

It wasn't so much what you said, as when you said it.

Not everyone is capable of this tho'

I also smile to myself who say they come from post WWII working class backgrounds and don't see how the welfare state (healthcare and education) might just have contributed to their upward mobility. But then I guess actual history doesn't matter if you're sitting pretty now and just want the biggest slice of the pie you can get.

How presumptious of you! My education was poor to say the least, left school with very little, had a stint at a local college and had to work hard to get to the point in life where i am now, and by no means is it plain sailing.

I don't think even the staunchest Tory here would object to spending on education and health but people do object to [url= http://www.promotionalcodes.org.uk/12468/20-disgusting-wasteful-examples-of-spending-by-the-uk-government/ ]this sort of waste[/url] and people do object to tax evasion on a massive scale which costs the country far more than the social security fraud the media love expose. Labour are the masters of the fiscal niche that means them and their rich mates pay naff all tax. They could stop it but won't.

I'm old enough to remember what life in the 80s was like and it seems to vary from others. I remember this country being in a complete and total state after a supposedly enlightened Labour government. Unions were rampant and showing little regard for anything other than flexing their muscle and holding businesses to ransom. We needed to change and to move on. If Thatch (or is that Fatch?) as I believe she is affectionately known and the Tories hadn't come in I dread to think what state we would be in today as a nation. Do I believe they did everything right? Of course not. Did they make mistakes? Certainly. However, governments don't make people greedy or selfish (hello victim thinking or a refusal to accept that you have a personal responsibility for your life). That's what some people are like. So much hatred and vitriol from people against Thatcher and her govenment of the time seems to me to be rather disturbing as well as being quite pointless. Sure, I was not part of a mining community, and don't know what it was like to live in those communities, but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here.

I don't understand- two of my comments taken out of context -both of which are asking people to head towards the light-hearted route.

Bikingcatastrophe, a well put balanced argument 🙂

this sort of waste

I'd like to see the real figures behind that sensationalist claptrap.

Par example:

£3m Wasted on Legal Aid to Criminal Politicians. Three Labour politicians have recently been accused of stealing £60,000. That’s not good. But what’s even less good is the fact that they aren’t hiring their own lawyers but instead are getting legal aid. It is expected that the total cost to taxpayers for their ongoing legal fees could be as much as £3mn.

I had a mini-rant on here a couple of weeks ago, about this, then realised I was being reactionary and naive. Those politicians are simply getting what every British Citizen has a [i]legal right[/i] to. As for the '£3m wasted'; how do they get that figure? Just goes to show; this is little more than provocative knee-jerk bollocks.

"Sure, I was not part of a mining community, and don't know what it was like to live in those communities, but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here."
It brought the best and the worst out in people. It made some people politically aware. It made some people struggle, at times literally, for their lives. Some mornings I didnt want to get out of bed, I didnt know if I'd end the day arrested or in hospital. Some days I'd look at my kids going without and think 'should I carry on with this?', then feel shame and guilt at just the thought of scabbing. It made communities closer, and then tore them apart for ever. I hated, and still hate, Thatcher, her government at the time, and what they did to my community.

so how much is the legal aid costing, do you know?

I don't understand- two of my comments taken out of context -both of which are asking people to head towards the light-hearted route.

You don't get it, do you? You're way, way out of your depth, yet you feel compelled to comment in spite of your clear ignorance on this subject. Then, when you've been exposed as a numpty, you then attempt to steer attention away by throwing in something frivolous and irreverent. Good tactic, I use it myself quite often. But then you go getting upset about someone calling you 'thick' (it was me, I won't hide behind the tag). 'Just a bit of light hearted fun', Hora... 😉

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm sure you're a very nice person, and probably a right laugh to be with. I've never seen any real malice or nastiness in what you post. But you do make yourself look a prat at times, let's be honest mate!

Personally, I steer clear of 'debates' like this, as I don't have the depth of knowledge on the matter as someone like Ernie, who is clearly very highly intelligent, informed and educated on subjects like this. I might throw in the odd provocative remark, but don't get sucked into a situation where I'll be torn to shreds by the hyenas...

EDIT: I've removed the tag. I'm sorry if it upset you.

but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here.

How could there be a more balanced view than on a forum where every individual gets to contribute as much or as little as they want?

talkemada, what a load of rubbish, are people not allowed to debate unless they have a certain level of knowledge? maybe you could come up with a sticky so the mods can put it to the top of the site explaining the level of knowledge needed before commenting on threads?

So much hatred and vitriol from people against Thatcher and her govenment of the time seems to me to be rather disturbing as well as being quite pointless.

What I find interesting is that we are only now getting a balanced thread. Most of the time on STW you get the impression that anybody who is not (far) left of centre has to be so socially inept that they don't deserve a vote and anyone who disagrees [b]has[/b] to be a moron or morally corrupt. Maybe it's because most of the 'lefties' are mouthy gits with more time on their hands to bang on endlessly about a utopian ideal instead of getting on with it. Classic example is union meetings/training. Expensive hotels, worthy talks but what will they have achieved at (considerable) members expense - usually ****all 🙄

so how much is the legal aid costing, do you know?

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8617252.stm ]Maybe nothing.[/url]

Maybe it's because most of the 'lefties' are mouthy gits with more time on their hands to bang on endlessly about a utopian ideal

There you go. Balance restored!

Mitch - fair enough. I can't even begin to imagine what it must have felt like or what it was like in the community. However, what we don't have is the luxury of experiencing what life might have been like if those changes were not implemented. What if the Unions had been allowed to continue unchecked? What if Labour had remained in power in 79? Could the country have been in an even bigger mess and more polarised? Would we still have a top tax rate of 83%? Who knows? One thing we do know is that whoever wins the next election they will be on a hiding to nothing for a long time as we try to recover from the staggering levels of debt we find ourselves in and the legacy of the financial profligacy of the last 13 years with an empty financial cupboard (according to the current Chancelor).

lol, so the big boss man had to tell them to repay legal aid for defending their case against stealing from the tax payer, class!

Hora has made factually correct and amusing contributions to this thread (for example pointing out that free school milk continued beyond the date others claimed). Why the character assination Talkemada? It says more about you than it does about Hora.

I suspect some of the posters on here weren't even around to know what it was actually like at the end of the last labour government.

talkemada, what a load of rubbish, are people not allowed to debate unless they have a certain level of knowledge?

Thats not what I'm saying. The point I was making, is that if you want to offer an opinion, or state your case, it pays to know what you're talking about, before you type. If you post something naive and flawed, because you are ignorant and unknowledgeable, don't get upset if you're made to look a fool.

I know bugger all about many, many things. Such as cars, where it's clear Hora is far more informed than I. Therefore, I wouldn't offer up some ignorant and blinkered view, if everyone else around me had a vastly greater knowledge on the subject. I might, however, ask a question, and hope to learn something, maybe.

I wouldn't turn up to a gunfight armed only with a spoon....

bikingcat - although (in hindsight) the miners strike and its subsequent consequences changed my life for the better (I retrained as a psychiatric nurse following the closure of the pit I was at), I would still preferred to have had a choice rather than felt pushed into having to change - does that make sense?.

The very ideas of scabbing, black legging etc. come from the bully boy communist unionists. It's a denial of democracy and freedom of choice. The unions campaigned for the right to withdraw their labour and rightly won it. They then denied the workers they were supposed to represent the right not to withdraw thier labour. The stresses in the communities came from peer pressure not Thatcher.

Quite right Edukator, this is, after all a cycling website. So can someone please find Hora a roadbike as a matter of priority.

I give it 2 weeks before it's back on the classifieds as either 'not for me' or 'bling upgrade required' 😉

Why the character assination Talkemada?

I really, really don't think Hora needs my help on that score; he does ok by himself! 😉

And he's a big boy. I'm sure he can cope with it.

The stresses in the communities came from peer pressure not Thatcher.

Lordy...

The very ideas of scabbing, black legging etc. come from the bully boy communist unionists

This very statement reveals the extent to which right-wing thatcherite ideologies have affected the minds of people...

I would still preferred to have had a choice rather than felt pushed into having to change - does that make sense?.

This very statement reveals the extent to which right-wing thatcherite ideologies have affected the minds of people...

This very statement reveals the extent to which left-wing Marxist ideologies have affected the minds of people...

Would we still have a top tax rate of 83%? Who knows?

ha ha - Bikingcatastrophe, do you pay the top rate of tax? Is this really an issue?

Maybe you do? But it really does astounds me how many people get their knickers in a twist about how unfair it would be if they ever had to pay a tax that they probably never are going to have to pay, and definitely never would have to pay unless they were lucky enough to make it filthy rich. It's a similar sort of mentality to people who only play the National Lottery on a rollover week, because 3 or 4 million is just not worth getting out of bed for.

OTOH there's not been a lot of discussion of the Poll Tax here yet. That was fair wasn't it?

OTOH there's not been a lot of discussion of the Poll Tax here yet. That was fair wasn't it?

......................runs off to cut wrists.........

To add to my last post, I also think I was bloody lucky to have had a mam and dad that pushed me into getting a decent education before going to work down the pit. I saw a lot of blokes just thrown onto the scrapheap during Maggie's 'remodelling' of South Yorkshire. Edukator - you do talk some crap mate - "The stresses in the communities came from peer pressure not Thatcher." - I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with some of the most principled people I have or will ever know during the strike, and without having been there, you will never be lucky enough to experience that.

One should not base their current vote based on 'Maggie'. After all, she was going on two decades ago.

If you do use this as a criteria then you truly are bitter and twisted.

This very statement reveals the extent to which left-wing Marxist ideologies have affected the minds of people...

This statement reveals the extent to which right-wing Thatcherite ideologies have so poisoned the minds of people, that they see anything else as 'extreme' and evil...

>ha ha - Bikingcatastrophe, do you pay the top rate of tax? Is this really an issue?

Maybe it's not for him but he's not so selfish to look at just how he's affected?

I do find it odd that so many refer to Thatcher in order to persuade people not to vote Tory now; how many didn't vote Labour in '97 because of the state we were in after the 70s? Or was it OK as now it hard become New Labour?

One should not base their current vote based on 'Maggie'. After all, she was going on two decades ago.

If you do use this as a criteria then you truly are bitter and twisted.

It's why we love him... 😀

Talky - it was mildly entertaining the first time......not anymore 🙄

No doubt the unions had utterly lost the plot in regards to power and the way they wielded it but there destruction at the hands of the witch 😉 left us with the flipside of the coin, employers that took advantage and exploited the workers.

Thatcher and Scargill were as bad as eachother in the callous way they used people. Scargill was doomed as soon as he decided to take up the fight.

Talky - it was mildly entertaining the first time......not anymore

Stop posting then!

There, sorted! 😀

Better now?

[Scargill was doomed as soon as he decided to take up the fight]

Sad but true, if he had half the brains of Joe Gormley he have waited till he was in a better position to win.

Ernie, who is clearly very highly intelligent, informed and educated on subjects like this

Or was it OK as now it hard become New Labour

Well New Labour was basically Thatcher-lite - completely different to the 70s Labour Party.

Maybe it's not for him but he's not so selfish to look at just how he's affected?

But happy to defend the selfishness of rich people? 😕

One should not base their current vote based on 'Maggie'. After all, she was going on two decades ago.

If you do use this as a criteria then you truly are bitter and twisted.

Really?
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That might be the case for some people - but others will just want to be sure that "Call me Dave" hasn't just slapped on some new make up and lippy over the old Tory values...
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It is actually important that the electorate understand DCs values and beliefs - and can see that he (and his entourage - most of whom are kjept firmly out of the spotlight) is sincere.
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I suspect that many people suspect the same old Tory values lurk close beneath the shiny facade - and that scares folks.

thatcher was scum who had no interest in anyone who was not likely to vote for her/conservatives - see the nOrth ir Scotland for example. She divided the country north /south and also by class. We are still paying the social price for her destruction of communities- they may have not been economically viable but 20 years on the doles + the crime and drugs does not seem that great an idea either.

Call me Dave is probably a bit more of a Disaraelist One nation Tory. The NHS and his reliance on the state re his child [Ivan?] has made him realise that even someone as priveledged as he [and his even richer wife] will still occasionally need the help of others via the state and the public sector employees. Still rather loose a testicle than vote for them though. Out for the rich as Camerons policy of cutting Inheritance tax for the very wealthy - him and his mates basically- in this country amply demonstartes

The point I was making, is that if you want to offer an opinion, or state your case, it pays to know what you're talking about, before you type.

We used to get a guy on here all the time who didnt have a clue what he was talking about. Never stopped him, cant remember his name though!

Bit early for a drink isn't it junkyard? 😀

I'm sure he's flattered that you remember him so fondly, Surfer.

what my typo errors? Yes just corrected them - would blame a sticky keyboard but was user error- or do you have a problem with my analysis?

Why is your keyboard sticky? 😯

Good analysis IMO.

>ha ha - Bikingcatastrophe, do you pay the top rate of tax? Is this really an issue?

Maybe it's not for him but he's not so selfish to look at just how he's affected?

Won't somebody please think of the rich children?

Just the typos mate.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinions.
I'll be happy if the tories or the libdems get in.
I'm afraid I'll be one of those who votes for whoever is likely to rid us of Brown et al. Not ideal but that's [i]my[/i] opinion.
And you should really answer talkemada; [i]why[/i] is your keyboard sticky? Left handed websites? I do hope your not in work. 😯

New Labour Thatcher-lite? Thatcher heavy surely. It was the Blair government that made students pay fees within a day of being elected.

I'd rather not be "lucky" in that way Mitch. While you were on the picket line I was breaking another one in another industry. You seem to think that you are the only person that has ever lived or experienced anything. Blindly following the union leaders into collective industrial suicide was the easy option. Walking alone through the picket line somewhat harder. Never fight a battle you can't win.

Won't somebody please think of the rich children?

Some suggest that high tax rates scare of the rich leaving the country poorer overall....