[Closed] the thread for negative views about remembrance

I agree, a good thread to have, thanks Yunki, and on the whole a reasoned one, apart from the irony of the threats from the 'chest beaters'-- and DONK is right to identify the need for widening and making the whole thing inclusive rather than exclusive .

Andyruss at first I too thought that comment was a bit inappropriate but as several subsequent posters proved it to be accurate, I guess it's pertinent.

Nice to see the Irish Taoiseach in Enniskillen today paying his respects, very poignant.

Rudebwoy it was others who identified the widening scope stuff, I was just summarising the thread as I read it. I as ever am not sure 100% exactly how I feel on the subject, observed the silence when it was pointed out what time it was (over the PA at swimming pool) but forgot to get a poppy again.

Was enjoying the discussion tho.

Just a thought:

I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

ok --good summary !

like most on here, am not comfortable with the present scenario,which increasingly seems to be about those who serve in the forces, and not the wider perspective of human empathy

I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

As I said, to me the fact that Remembrance Day is officially just about commemorating the military dead, on our side only, is inherently valuing the lives of some people more than others. It's difficult to see that as anything other than nationalistic, IMO.

The atmosphere of enforced patriotism is pretty worrying. Seems like these attitudes are more likely to encourage future conflict than guard against it.

Rudeboy.... I'm entirely comfortable with the present scenario and you are in the minority I reckon IMO

seem to be getting in a discussion with donk. Anyway why l observe the silence. I served on the front line in the first gulf war .l did not wish to be there but it was my job. 3 members of my unit lost their lives along with thousands of others. I went through every emotion you could think of but the over ridding one's were fear ,pity and joy you will never understand when it was over. I never talk about it to my family and my son never ask's me questions about it. When we were dealing with enemy pow's we showed compassion and respect giving them our own rations of food and water. Actions of a trained killer ? My opinion of war is that it is wrong at every level and l never again wish to see,smell relive that part of my life. However the people l served with will always be dear to my heart. When you have been through that then you can question why l chose to honour them in my own little way . No songs no flag waving just one minute out of my year mindless killing machine or no. Today it was a minutes reflection prior to our group ride

Just a thought:

I'm sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

This. Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil should not let that detract from the fact that remembrance day is about remembering those who, past and present, sacrifice their safety to protect us.

There is a feeling in the internet world we live in of cuddly safety, we're detached from lots of real issues these days and it's easy for those of you who do, to sit at home in your chair, in the warm to say that all wars are bad. But there are millions upon millions of people out there who would scream to you that it is often a necessary cost to do right. The pen is mightier than the sword until the swordsman pulls his sword on the writer. Those of you who attack the army and everything they stand for, are hypocrites of the highest order because you will hate them until YOU need them.

Patriotism is something we should value, and we should respect our troops in any way possible.

Donk referring to servicemen/women as trained killers on today of all days is not belittling them then

Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil should not let that detract from the fact that remembrance day is about remembering those who, past and present, sacrifice their safety to protect us.

There is a feeling in the internet world we live in of cuddly safety, we're detached from lots of real issues these days and it's easy for those of you who do, to sit at home in your chair, in the warm to say that all wars are bad.

But there are millions upon millions of people out there who would scream to you that it is often a necessary cost to do right.

The pen is mightier than the sword until the swordsman pulls his sword on the writer. Those of you who attack the army and everything they stand for, are hypocrites of the highest level because you will hate them until YOU need them.

Patriotism is something we should value,

and we should respect our troops in any way possible.

However the people l served with will always be dear to my heart. When you have been through that then you can question why l chose to honour them in my own little way . No songs no flag waving just one minute out of my year mindless killing machine or no. Today it was a minutes reflection prior to our group ride

Interesting post. The trouble is though, I don't really see why I should care more about your mates that died than I do about the (countless more) Iraqi soldiers/civilians that did too. Ie I have the same level of ordinary human compassion that most people have for those they don't know.

i have two good friends, both ex welsh guards, they express very similar sentiments to you andyruss, they are both struggling with ptsd, and they both declined to take part in the official ceremony in town today....

Bloodynora, glad you feel good about things, but many more do not...

Grum l am not asking anything of you . War is wrong war is evil ,no one wins in the end. I was pointing out it is a personal thing to me and that is why l remember the the saddest time in my live.l think you will find a said thousands lost their lives

I think we probably all remember today what I remember is what waste of human life it is on all sides.

I reckon "we've" probably killed more innocent people than we've lost doing it.

[i]Patriotism is something we should value[/i]

No.
Patriotism is tribalism writ large.

[i]Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.[/i]
Bertrand Russell

[i]It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind[/i].
Voltaire

[i]Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.[/i]
George Bernard Shaw

I've no negative views about Remembrance Day; I observe it in my way, for those people I know who are no longer here and who served. I am under no illusions as to the futility of much of the sacrifice, but I would respect that sacrifice anyway.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

Or adding to the other side of an internet persona balance...

For those that care to find it, there's a Canadian website that shows just how evil war can be.

No way in hell I am either linking it or even giving hints, truly horrifying.

Interesting thread this, I seem to find myself agreeing with different sides on different things.

[i]Or adding to the other side of an internet persona balance...[/i]

Indeedy... 😉

I have however just agreed with what Crikey just said.

Edit, 2nd from last post

I used to hold the same view as the OP but that was when I was 15 and incredibly naive.

It's a childish an immature argument.

No they dont I am not asking them to do anything and I would be just as free if they stopped the expanionist wars.

Then bugger off to somalia and see how life is for you there? If you deplore the actions of our Army so intensely, why are you happy to live, work and profit from the safety that it provides our country? We may not have been invaded in a long time, but if the army didn't exist, we would be fish food... you know that right?

And of course i'm not saying that every conflict is justifiable, successful or right. But it is a means to an end in many situations. You are a fantasist. Willing problems to vanish does nothing.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

And don't put words in my mouth, I never said patriotism is a just cause, I said it should be valued. Not above all else, but valued none the less. You could argue that it should be a worldwide respect for decent values and not 'patriotism' and I would agree with that. But that's a long way off.

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

Human Nature, sadly defines that an easy way to get more is to kill then steal it from your neighbour, it's been a fact since creation.

As to our not being invaded, that is thanks to the various armed forces that have stood on the wall and prevented that from happening, many died doing it.

They don't even ask to be remembered, there are however a few of us who have families that were among them, so we like to do it.

We like to do it without the benefit of young lefty pinko's who are able to be that way because of the liberty they enjoy at the sacrifice of others talking bollox about the wrongs of war. Aggression exists, society is formed to protect itself from outside aggression and hires the services of people braver than ourselves to do it, so when they pay the ultimate price and particularly on a day such as this they deserve respect.

3yrs ago I cried at Tyne Cot.

Men and women join to serve but not to waste their lives.

Afghanistan is far worse than Vietnam. It will NEVER be normal there.

Stop wasting the quality of their lives for politicians folly.

Listen to the Russians FFS

I used to hold the same view as the OP but that was when I was 15 and incredibly naive.

what exactly do you think my view is..?

here is my original post in full for you to read again

As a mark of respect for those that wish to err, show their respect on the other thread, I thought that I would start a separate thread for the inevitable debate..

I'm personally not at all comfortable with the vehement nationalistic jingoism..

The comments about the Iranian geezer on the other thread being a prime example of how the arguments that defend the remembrance ceremony are completely undermined in the name of patriotism..

Shouldn't we be trying with all of our might to push the perception and meaning of the day into a more logical and useful direction..?
Can this ever be achieved or is that dimwitted brand of patriotism too deeply ingrained into our society..?

What happened to the white poppy campaign..?

My thoughts are with the families around the world that have been torn apart by warmongering governments

I was angry at another forum users posts on the remembrance day thread, and started this one so that any debate could be held here instead leaving respects to be paid on the other..

My only view, which I am guessing I did not make clearly enough for you, is that the occasion seems to have a tendency towards getting it's message muddied..

What part of that is immature, incredibly naive or indeed even an argument...!?

I guess it depends on whether you're reading it as an impassioned rhetoric, or just a couple of questions to get a debate going..

no-one seems very interested in answering those questions it seems, preferring instead to get all arsey and disrespectful of one another..

bump glitch

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

"Junkboy"...oh how I tittered.

And, if I'm honest, your subsequent tub thumping jingoistic bullshit is kinda turning me on a bit. Who'd a thunk it eh?

Is patriotism a dirty word now? You say patriotism and all of a sudden you're some jingoistic, pro colonial crusty old Tory smoking cigars with a monocle in one eye whilst throwing darts at a world map and deciding where to invade next?

Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?

I didn't really expect anything less of a thread of this title in terms of grounding or intellect though.

[i]Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?[/i]

Unless he's from a different country, of course.
Then you can do what ever you want to, cos he's foreign.

[i]Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.[/i]
George Jean Nathan

'tub thumping jingoistic bullshit' Oh how I tittered 🙂

Junkyard - Member
I think we probably all remember today what I remember is what waste of human life it is on all sides.

How true.

igrf - Member
Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

(Sorry but with respect) How untrue - we become poor educators if we fail to teach the huge folly and waste of life that wars are. We should be very careful of sanitising war and the horror it involves. * Standing at Thiepval Memorials etc is a dramatic reminder of this.

Of course, this is is no way incompatible with:

They don't even ask to be remembered, there are however a few of us who have families that were among them, so we like to do it.

In remembrance, we can give thanks, honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and still warn future generations that armed conflict should be avoided as much as possible by recognising its true horror.

*edit: Many years ago at school, a fellow pupil asked to read out several war poems before our school service to remind us of this. It was the most memorable and meaningful service that I ever attended at school.

Rememberance day is a personal day for me to remember friends and colleagues. I'm beginning to despise those who have started to use the period of rememberance for either political point scoring or some other agenda. Whether its wearing a white poppy, applauding through the silence or hollow nationalistic muppets who don't know even know where their local memorial is. If you don't wear a poppy or attend a service I honestly dont mind! It's your freedom of choice, however of you disrespect me or the majority of the population that do, you have no moral argument.

Oh and deadly Darcy, as for your "trained killers" comment. Yes we do get sensitive around this time. Especially to idiotic comments by pre-pubescent children who hide behind their keyboards.

patriotism is a close relative of nationalism, both are used to divide and rule.

As an internationalist i wish to see solidarity with my fellow humans, those who do not exploit others, those who do not kill others, and those who wish to live in a world where people are put before profit.

a lot to ask, but you have to have ideals.....

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

Folk disagree there is no need to just start hurling abuse, it wont persuade anyone to change their view and is a bit childish].

See me after class and we can chat about respect and how it is a two way street
😉

You got a new log on after the ban will you be able to control yourself this time?

Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?

I didn't really expect anything less of a thread of this title in terms of grounding or intellect though.

Personally I'd like to believe that Remembrance day was about sparing a thought for all sides involved in conflict. This is what it means for me, but quite definitively it is officially for our armed forces. I will wear a poppy but be thinking of my German and Polish relatives too...

J

You got a new log on after the ban will you be able to control yourself this time?

This log on is actually me, or the closest I can get to being me without expressing myself the way I would like to but would be banned by folk like you, abusing as is so often the case by the left, the basic right of expression gifted to us by those we would remember.

The fact that you consider criticism as abuse exactly defines you and your kind.

Yes we do get sensitive around this time.

Yes, by the subsequent ad hominems, I can see you're a bit sensitive.

In remembrance, we can give thanks, honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and still warn future generations that armed conflict should be avoided as much as possible by recognising its true horror.

But it isn't happening. Despite the "warnings" and all the memorials, we are still sending soldiers overseas to what they now call "defending our interests" which are mainly economic these days.

We had to defend our freedom during WW2 mainly through the consequences of the political decisions taken after WW1, but at the same time we also have to see that the appeasement that occurred during this time didn't work either, leading to conflict. When to fight?

Politics were involved whether its was reparations or appeasement. This should be a delicate balancing act as to whether you enter into conflict or not and, I feel that Politicians are almost too eager to go for the former and not for the right reasons. Of course the reasons depend on your own point of view.

When I look at the cenotaph, I see continuous failure to heed historical lessons, The one day where the politicians have to show a solemnity and slight remorse for the actions either they or their predecessors carried out. They lay their wreaths and tomorrow it'll be business as usual with the same rhetoric as before.

Andyruss I sympathise with anyone who loses people close to them. Rememberence day seems to be about remembering your comrades but ignoring your opponents and their fellow civilian countrymen. Surely all the casualties of war should be remembered if we're going to avoid repeating mistakes?

Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil

As all the quotes have suggested patriotism is [b]blindly [/b]following the country's leaders/media without question, surely not something we should adhere to nowadays.

Its ok cobrakai, he prefers his 'trained killers' to wear balaclavas 😉

As I've already pointed out, I don't have a problem with people not taking part in rememberance, just don't disrespect those who do.

Which you did with that remark. Still hiding...

This log on is actually me, or the closest I can get to being me without expressing myself the way I would like to but would be banned by folk like you,

abusing as is so often the case by the left, the basic right of expression gifted to us by those we would remember.

The fact that you consider criticism as abuse exactly defines you and your kind.

is that a mirror i see before me ?

why does the idea of inquiring into the futility of war so upset some people ?

Its ok cobrakai, he prefers his 'trained killers' to wear balaclavas

Eh?

Feel free to expand on this if you'd like to.

Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
George Jean Nathan

you can keep quoting people more intelligent than yourself to bolster your argument if you like. Would you like me to go and find some to support my thoughts?

As an internationalist i wish to see solidarity with my fellow humans, those who do not exploit others,

I'm going to stop using the word patriotism, because obviously it has a negative connotation of jingoism that cannot be overlooked by some people here, so I'll use the word unity instead. Because if we can't unite as a nation, we can never hope to be any better than we are now. That includes embracing the military as our defenders, and kicking all the btards out of government until we can elect people who listen to us, and want to help others.

I'm oot.

Still hiding...

Nope. Still here...and happily standing by my comment. What about it do you find so "disrespectful"? Perhaps if you explain why it upsets you so much...

Donk l remember them because f what we shared. Something l hope you never have to. If you read my posts l make it quite clear how l feel about war and yes your right we should remember all who have fallen.

nukeproof unity makes more sense but viewing ones country as ace make it hard to be unified - as i said earlier those most likely to be fighting are the patriotic ones on both sides "protecting" their country.

military are the defenders of the state,not sure if you were around in the seventies with the three day week, military on stand by, or when fire fighters were in dispute-- the green godesses nonsense-- but the bottom line is they are the last option of the state to preserve the status quo..

mikey3 - Member
Wow you muppets will turn anything into a bickerfest.Funny though and a little sad tbh.

That about sums up this thread.

I'm not going to get into this, I genuinely have better things to do with my time but if you are honest and in no way being a keyboard warrior even you will admit there was a mocking tone to your "trained killers" comment.

If you deny it you won't have to argue the case as everyone on this forum will see straight through you.

4 pages of sh#t

in fact a good many british soldiers have died in wars in an attempt to limit the liberty of others.

patriotism is a close relative of nationalism, both are used to divide and rule.

Internationalism is a close relative of communism. Not that communism has much of a track record either (that comment is as sensible or stupid as yours - depending on your point of view).

If you want to chuck around bad examples how about the 'proleterian state' as espoused by Mao - thirty million dead in the Great Leap Forward before a change of heart - after being hidden by censoring censuses. All because of dogma and letting theory determine practice.

The 'system' we currently have is an accident of history - mostly just by default, but also because of the wreckage of people who thought thew knew best (on the left and the right).

Stephen Fry goes on about religion and said on QI "s**t it all". He's a clever bloke, and a lot of people lap up everything he says - but how can he be sure that, overall, religion hasn't been a brake on the excesses of humans? Just being 'alternative' isn't enough - you need to actually know what you would do differently. Otherwise it's all just talk.

[i]you can keep quoting people more intelligent than yourself to bolster your argument if you like. Would you like me to go and find some to support my thoughts?[/i]

Find some people more intelligent than you? Not exactly going to take all night is it?

You're the one who brought up the idea that we should be valuing patriotism. You did it without really thinking it through, perhaps, as noted, because this current internet persona hasn't quite bedded in yet.

Who knows.

If you deny it you won't have to argue the case as everyone on this forum will see straight through you.

I see what you're doing there. Tell you what, you've backed me right into a corner now - where I can't hide behind my keyboard anymore. I'm well and truly stuffed.

However, no mocking at all. Provocation? Yes, for sure - it's a thread for dissenters to air their views. You're still not explaining why you're so upset about it though. But, don't worry, there's no need to answer.

I won't. Nite.

Crikey, i've got better things to do than argue with you and your inexhaustable collection of pseudo intellectual quotes all night lol.

Which ones were those, then. Just curious, like. I can think of the few who joined the Nazis to fight against the Allies, but I'm really struggling to think of any conflicts where British troops have fought to limit the freedom of oppressed people.

Apart from our several hundred years of colonialism you mean?

Anyone wonder why Iran might be a bit paranoid about being attacked?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran

[i]I'm oot.[/i]

Then:

[i]Crikey, i've got better things to do than argue with you and your inexhaustable collection of pseudo intellectual quotes all night lol.[/i]

So one can only presume that you actually haven't got anything better to do...

LOL.

This thread really does lower the tone of stw forum. It serves no purpose and really needs pulling.

[i]It serves no purpose[/i]

Um, STW?

The whole bloody place isn't exactly a paragon of mental productivity is it?

It serves no purpose and really needs pulling.

+1

it's like the days of pointless big s hitter arguments, ban 'em for making the forum a negative and unwelcoming place to new comers.

You lot make TJ and Elfin seen like rather fey poets!

This thread really does lower the tone of stw forum. It serves no purpose and really needs pulling.

Why?

This thread is what's great about stw.

Which ones were those, then. Just curious, like. I can think of the few who joined the Nazis to fight against the Allies, but I'm really struggling to think of any conflicts where British troops have fought to limit the freedom of oppressed people.

There are quite a few historically. Have a look at this wiki page:

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_Army ]History of the British Army[/url]

It's important because it allows people to say things that otherwise would seem to provoke people to ...shall we say extreme grumpiness...

It allows people to get what they think out in the open in a relatively safe way.

This thread really does lower the tone of stw forum. It serves no purpose and really needs pulling

You lot make TJ and Elfin seen like rather fey poets!

Mr [s]Yard[/s]Tazzy- you do seen excessively given to histrionics recently. is everything ok? (genuine question)

seems like an invasion of patriot ultras in the last hour or so-- determined to close down something they disagree with....how noble, if you have nothing to add, go look on the threads that are more your level..

cheers junky, nice to see you being a smug Charlie uniform .....again

Woo, tazzy, I know it's a cold Sunday but no need to be so miserable. And easy with the ad hominems. (Unless its an in joke between you)

Let's show how much we love freedom by silencing/banning people who don't agree with us. 🙄

tazzy why did you even open this thread, pretty obvious what it was about and that discussion might be 'lively' no? It's actually been pretty level-headed IMO, apart from a load of right-wing flag wavers calling for people to be beaten up, or made to shut up for daring not to tow the correct nationalistic tone as approved by The Sun.

I come from a long line of pacifists, no-one in my family has ever fought (apart from possibly an ancestor who came over with William the Conqueror) but I think of my grandfather who was a medial orderly in North Africa and other places during WWII. He never talked about what he saw, but you can imagine.

So no, I don't wear a poppy. I don't want to remember British soldiers in particular, I want to remember the poor sods of any nation who died in war, military or civilian.

Okay, own up - which one of you [url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/remembrance-day-skateboarding-devil-arrested-1430812 ]pulled this stunt[/url]? 😈

Pretty sure I've seen this cross-dressing skater a few times in Brizzle.

The ****.

I actually agree with Darcy. It's the whole point of forums. It's like downtown abbey. If you don't like it, there's always homeland on the other side. 😛

An emotive subject that has brought out strong feelings in all of us..

Quite why it managed to stay civilised all day and then turned sour in the evening I couldn't say.. alcohol perhaps.. people coming home from an afternoon in the boozer..?

I'm off now.. going on holiday in the morning and need ma beauty sleep..I'll leave you all with a final thought..

[img] [/img]

Was a good op with a interesting if not questioning point of view,alas has gone down hill rapid .l'm out

5 pages of sh#t

From noteeth's article...

As he was bundled into a police car, officers had to forcefully remove several people at the parade, who were shouting "death's too good for you".

You have to laugh really...

Where you going on holiday yunki?

I'm sure we could argue about that! 😆