[Closed] the thread for negative views about remembrance

*re-posted from t'other thread*

it is to remember those who have lost their lives [b]whilst serving their country[/b]

this is why i've stopped taking part in the whole thing. it's not just remembrance anymore, it's remembrance with a nasty dollop of nationalism.

i'll chose to remember the tragedy of wwi that affected the whole world. i'll chose to remember the international brigade. i'll chose to remember the civilian victims of all wars, i'll choose to remember those that died fighting the nazis, i'll chose to remember those that died fighting colonialism.
what i won't do is go anywhere near a union ****ing jack whilst i'm doing it.

The comments about the Iranian geezer on the other thread being a prime example of how the arguments that defend the remembrance ceremony are completely undermined in the name of patriotism..

What comments were those then?

An Iranian gentleman, that is to say a gentleman who self-identified as Iranian shortly before accusing my father of being 'a murderer' (direct quote). Another forum user then asked whether any members of the public had objected to this comment and I confirmed that they had.

I must have missed the bit involving patriotism ('dim-witted or otherwise), perhaps you'd like to show your working?

Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

the only people who want war are those who's position means they do not have to see the horror of it.
watching Blair laying a wreath a few years back while he was taking us into an illegal war that cost the lives of so many civilians was just too much.
honouring those who defended our country is absolutely the right thing to do.....honouring those who attacked another, weaker one doesn't sit well with me at all

bravohotel8er - I'm not even entering into discussion with you pal..

it was Mark Twain that said "Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Nobody's forced to be patriotic. Use the day to remember or don't remember whatever you want.
The key is just to be respectful about it (I personally don't think that wearing white poppies is respectful). It's nobody's place to question what others use the day or minute or whatever for. It's a personal thing.

Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

honouring those who defended our country is absolutely the right thing to do

i'm genuinely interested to hear exactly how many instances of this country needing defending from threat there have been throughout modern history.

apart from wwii, i can't think of any other.

Edit: oops, a bit late with that one

yunki - Member
bravohotel8er - I'm not even entering into discussion with you pal..

it was Mark Twain that said "Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

You're right, I could never hope to compete against a Grand Master of stupidity like you. Thanks for the tacit acknowledgment that you had no point though.

I give this thread 5 minutes.

aye DD sensitive but still in a macho chest beating way

What about defending other countries under threat? Is that not honourable?
Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, East Timor, etc.

We live in a democracy. Admittedly, like all of them, a flawed democracy. "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Agree or not agree with any wars our Country gets involved in, we send them there to do what they do. Like or not they are there "serving their Country".

If you do not agree with the war use the democratic process and system to object and change it.

I cannot see how Remembrance Day could be seen as supporting unjust wars or inappropriate Nationalism.

it was WWII i was referring to

If you do not agree with the war use the democratic process and system to object and change it.

I don't believe that this system has any merit

Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

Are your trying to take the p1ss with that comment?

I dare you to say that to a vet whose been in combat, go on...theres plenty around today - it shouldnt be too hard to find one..

I'd happily put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude..

yunki - Member
As a mark of respect for those that wish to err, show their respect on the other thread, I thought that I would start a separate thread for the inevitable debate..

I'm personally not at all comfortable with the vehement nationalistic jingoism..

The comments about the Iranian geezer on the other thread being a prime example of how the arguments that defend the remembrance ceremony are completely undermined in the name of patriotism..

Shouldn't we be trying with all of our might to push the perception and meaning of the day into a more logical and useful direction..?
Can this ever be achieved or is that dimwitted brand of patriotism too deeply ingrained into our society..?

What happened to the white poppy campaign..?

My thoughts are with the families around the world that have been torn apart by warmongering governments

Well done - your OP has just set a new low for STW

I'm sure you're proud though.

in what way have I behaved in a manner that is low son..?

Wow awesome I should really do more to help folk who punch the lights out of folk they disagree with or say something they dont like 🙄

hey you have a thread to praise them and asked us to leave and start a new one. Could you do the same or can we argue or the remembrance one?

Patriot pro it was your suggestion to start another thread and now you are on it moaning ...slow hand clap

If you do not agree with the war use the democratic process and system to object and change it.
I don't believe that this system has any merit

We that's the end of democracy then.

Well Emperor Yunki sire, what system would you like?

I'd happily put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude.

kind of proving his point really.

just saying like.

deadlydarcy - Member
Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

And untrained Killers get busy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_bombing

Yunki, Actually cannot be bothered.

Wow you muppets will turn anything into a bickerfest.Funny though and a little sad tbh.

kind of proving his point really.

& your point is what exactly?

Wow awesome I should really do more to help folk who punch the lights out of folk they disagree with or say something they dont like

If you crack a funny at someone about their loss, someone who they may have lost a very dear friend in a traumatic & violent way, then yeah I reckon you can expect a punch in the face if you try to make fun of them & their mourning.

Its called being insensitive.

Or cant you see that?

what was '[i]untrained[/i]' about the ira ?

Well Emperor Yunki sire, what system would you like?

although it may suit you you to divert this thread into a discussion on the merits of our failed democracy, it's not really on topic..

Today, I'm going to set aside a few minutes to remember all the (trained and untrained) thread killers.

The day marks an end to a war and should be treated thus - a chance to reflect why sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers have died. I think on its inception it was to reflect on all those that had fallen regardless of their birthplace and the reasons why. I worry that this reflection forms a lesser part than the grief (which for many is undoubtedly necessary).

& your point is what exactly?

well dd claimed

Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

to which you figured

I'd happily put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude.

which kind of proves his point that....

Trained killers do get very sensitive around this time of year.

happy to clarify

Yunki, you cannot surely fail to understand that today is not about governments, it is about the servicemen and women who have died during conflic

if you re-read my original post, I simply ask if we should place more emphasis on the real meaning of the day.. and perhaps try even harder to steer it away from any nationalistic connotations..

it's all there in the OP

well the op claimed

No he didn't. That was yunki. And, yes, that's me being sensitive. 🙂

Patriopro - I think yunki deserves credit for starting another thread and by STW standards I felt that his OP was well put and reasonable - more than I expected from the title - even if I do not necessarily agree with his sentiments ("dimwittted patriotism" etc).

*witness the stealth edit*

Ninjas be ninjain'

Last one as Im off about.

If you think your are being big, clever & funny by taking the p1ss out of those who chose to mark Remembrance Sunday respectfully...may I suggest stop being oh so brave behind your keyboard & toddle off down your local cenotaph & air your views there.

Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

See how you get on..

I'm a vet and yunki hasn't offended me, even if I don't believe that rememberance day is "dimwitted patriotism". I'm also not pro-war but will support the people being sent to fight, and donate to any cause helping those injured sent to do our bidding.

I don't believe that remembrance day is dimwitted patriotism either Wrecker.. I don't believe that it sends out a clear enough message about it's intentions perhaps

But I DO believe that making negative comments about an Iranian man's anger on a remembrance day thread is dimwitted patriotism..

I possibly didn't make my original post clear on that point

Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

See how you get on..

not really appropriate that is it..?

Nice to live in a country where we enjoy the freedom to express our views about the rights and wrongs of governments sending ordinary citizens to their death, safe in the knowledge that there won't be a knock at the door at dark o'clock by agents wishing to take us or our families away to correct our thinking.

Regardless of the motivation of those at the top, is it so wrong to remember those at the bottom who died in two world wars to allow us the freedom to be keyboard warriors? Critics should reflect on the irony of why they are free to criticise. 🙄

there won't be a knock at the door at dark o'clock by agents wishing to take us or our families away to correct our thinking.

much to the disgruntlement of a few on this thread..

If you think your are being big, clever & funny by taking the p1ss out of those who chose to mark Remembrance Sunday respectfully...may I suggest stop being oh so brave behind your keyboard & toddle off down your local cenotaph & air your views there.

Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

See how you get on..

see what you're actually doing here is proving the point that some people on the thread are trying to make.

remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling which has appropriated the day in such a way that some people now feel that there should be only one meaning attached to it and any kind of subaltern or dissenting view is seen as unpatriotic or cowardly or disrespectful.

which is a dangerous thing.

Nice to live in a country where we enjoy the freedom to express our views about the rights and wrongs of governments sending ordinary citizens to their death, safe in the knowledge that there won't be a knock at the door at dark o'clock by agents wishing to take us or our families away to correct our thinking.

Regardless of the motivation of those at the top, is it so wrong to remember those at the bottom who died in two world wars to allow us the freedom to be keyboard warriors? Critics should reflect on the irony of why they are free to criticise

see this is the other thing that is wrong about remembrance sunday. the assumption that every british casualty in war has died defending [i]our[/i] right to liberty. they haven't. in fact a good many british soldiers have died in wars in an attempt to limit the liberty of others.

perhaps the author of the above quote might like to inform me how exactly the british victims of wwi died preserving freedom. are people really under the impression that the liberty of civilisation was under threat from germany in 1914-18 ?

see what you're actually doing here is proving the point that some people on the thread are trying to make.

remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling which has appropriated the day in such a way that some people now feel that there should be only one meaning attached to it and any kind of subaltern or dissenting view is seen as unpatriotic or cowardly or disrespectful.

which is a dangerous thing.

You think? How?

Youre making an awful lot of assumptions there about how I feel..

I never said you couldnt dissent but be respectful. Otherwise why should I or others respect you (or others) POV when you (or others) wont respect my & others feeling.

Its a 2-way street.

Lets have a dialogue by all means but dont take the p1ss. That just doesnt help.

edit: To clarify, Im annoyed at the remark about trained killers feeling sensitive. That implies that servicemen & women dont have feelings. Thats not funny. Not at all. If you tried that on with some of my friends (whove recently lost a colleqgue) you had better stand by. Thats all Im saying.

the idea that if you are not with us you must be against us is a dangerous and ironically dark path that those who fought against such ideology would be appalled by.

So in this 'democracy' that we 'cherish' -- how by questioning some views and customs is it disrespectful ?

The people who were conscripted/volunteered to fight against fascism were involved in a different conflict than those career soldiers who go on jobs arranged by their masters(uk/us govts )

I think the key points of this for me are:

1). Differing views are not wanted on 'our' thread so start your own. Another was started.
2). The original point was not isn't Remembrance Day pointless, but rather that it more recently has been hijacked for political reasons
3). Restatement of the reasons Remembrance Day was instated (Liquid hit that bang on - but was largely ignored...). Remembrance Day is "Lest we forget" the sacrifice and the waste of life on all sides in war. It is not about supporting militarism - it is about not forgetting the victims of militarism
4). If truly veterans feel or think they can assault others for holding and articulating differing views - they are letting themselves and the fallen down. You can't fight wars stating you have served in the name of freedom and then deny freedom to others without some justified claims of hypocrisy...
5). Not one person so far seems to have said anything disrespectful of the dead - only questioned the motivations of some of the living - including some who sent other to die in illegal wars. Perhaps those questioning are truly holding on to the true values of this day.

I say this from a background where I would claim neither thread is 'mine', I wear a poppy each year to remember the fallen of all nations, I am someone who seriously considered a career in the forces, the first generation on one side of my family to have not served as a professional soldier, sailor or airman and the proud grandson of two men who volunteered to fight in the name of freedom in the Second World War - one who travelled halfway around the world to do it.

Lets have a dialogue by all means but dont take the p1ss. That just doesnt help.

no one is really taking the p1ss though are they. merely pointing out that dissenting views aren't allowed to be heard for fear of aggression.

which is a point that really needs to be made.

see this is the other thing that is wrong about remembrance sunday. the assumption that every british casualty in war has died defending our right to liberty. they haven't. in fact a good many british soldiers have died in wars in an attempt to limit the liberty of others.

Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?
No country has a perfect record if you go back far enough.

The people who were conscripted/volunteered to fight against fascism were involved in a different conflict than those career soldiers who go on jobs arranged by their masters(uk/us govts )

remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling which has appropriated the day in such a way that some people now feel that there should be only one meaning attached to it and any kind of subaltern or dissenting view is seen as unpatriotic or cowardly or disrespectful.

I had always thought it was about remembering the ordinary men and women who died, not the politicians who sent them.And that is how it normally goes up here.
Can you give me direct examples of it being hijacked as you have asserted it is.

Remembering those who have died in previous conflicts (all those who died, on all sides, everywhere in the world) is massively important. If we collectively stop remembering those who died in conflict, we stop thinking about why we should work hard to prevent war and the further suffering and death.

There will always be those who take events, symbols etc for their own (sometimes distasteful) causes, but that is not enough reason to stop doing something. As long as enough people know why we come together to remember and understand why those deaths are a terrible thing, then the message will drown out the vocal minorities. It is not about glorifying the dead or their deaths or even being grateful, but remembering them with due regard.

+several for jamj

The thing is, it is a militaristic ceremony, yet the vast majority killed in these conflicts have and will be civilians.

But I DO believe that making negative comments about an Iranian man's anger on a remembrance day thread is dimwitted patriotism..

Would you like to show us those comments? Oh, there weren't any.

I mentioned that an Iranian man (he self-identified as such) had approached my father and accused him of being 'a murderer', it was anecdotal in that it was the only negative reaction he has ever experienced in five years of poppy selling. So, once again as you are obviously exceedingly hard of thinking, there were no 'negative' comments so what on earth are you on about?

The clue is in the title assigned to the day, it's for remembering those who lost their lives in various wars the UK's been involved in.
I really don't see where political bias fits into this?....every conflict has its objectors, some wars are offensive instead of defensive and some soldiers volunteer as opposed to conscription....it's simply a day to pay respects to those who die in those crappy situations....some people over analyse things far too much.

Only a moron thinks it is a celebration of war and of course there is an element of patriotism, nationalism, jingoism etc etc as the day marks the loss of British and Commonwealth servicemen....it's not a difficult concept is it?
Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.

Well put deviant.

Unbelievable. Some people on here should be ashamed of themselves. Let those who want to remember do so, if you don't agree with it or want to remember in a different way that's OK too. However don't mock those that have fought for this country or their families and their loss.

Can you give me direct examples of it being hijacked as you have asserted it is.

sure, from this thread

aggression

I'd happily put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude.

I reckon you can expect a punch in the face

nationalisism

Like or not they are there "serving their Country"

Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers

jingoism

those at the bottom who died in two world wars to allow us the freedom

no one died in wwi to guarantee [i]our[/i] freedom. it saddens me that nearly 100 years later the same jingoism that encouraged all those to enlist still persists.

and while we're at it, who or what is this mysterious [i]us, we, our[/i] taht we're all supposed to identify with

remembrance day has been hijacked by a nationalist, jingoistic, aggressive wave of feeling

Alternatively, it could be argued that this is a knee jerk reaction to remembrance day being hijacked by a jingoistic aggressive political wave of feeling [b]against[/b] certain wars!

Its also worth remembering that the poppy, remembrance day and the two minute silence, initially an occasion when 'the thoughts of everyone may be concentrated on reverent remembrance of the glorious dead' has been kicked about as a political football and political statement since at least 1933.

I do question if any politician should be at the cenotaph because they will always have baggage, no more so than Blair. Yes i know they are there as PM, etc. but nothing in life is that simple.

But it is not as though anything in the UK compares to the Soviet era May 9th parades.

Isn't this the problem, that somehow some lives are more worthy than others ?

Servicemen (and women?)- are indeed 'honoured'- but i recall that merchant seamen had to campaign for many years to get recognition of their part in the conflicts.

despite suffering proportionately greater loss...

Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?

wrecker, if you read my very first post then you'll see that i do in fact remeber those that fought in wwii.

i see absolutely no reason to feel [i]grateful[/i] for those who fought and died in wwi. it was not a war about securing freedom. i do feel sorrow about the enormous tragedy of it but that's a completely different emotion to gratitude.

Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials

on reflection, do you think that [i]hijack the day[/i] might be over egging the pudding a bit ? i don't think a single ceremony has been affected by those who happen to have a different world view.

Alternatively, it could be argued that this is a knee jerk reaction to remembrance day being hijacked by a jingoistic aggressive political wave of feeling against certain wars!

care to point out the knee jerk reactionism in any of my posts ? i'd say that i'd substantiated every point that i've made.

Hmmm - Rudebwoy, the merchant navy memorial has been at the top of tower hill since about 1928, which seems like a significant effort at recognising their part in war - though I recall there were calls for many years over recognition of individual campaigns through the award of medals.

Is that the best you can do? The replies to you trolling an internet chat room proves every point you have. Case in point;somebody mentions serving "their country" is your example of nationalistic hijacking of remembrance day?

Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.

That's you.

Some people always hijack the day as an opportunity to showcase their alternative views and hand wringing credentials, each to their own I suppose.

Today more than any other is a day where due reverence is shown to those that have been involved in military actions..
We are encouraged to remember

It's bound to raise discussion, or is the tradition now that we should remember (but keep our thoughts to ourselves)..?

Do you not feel at all grateful for any sacrifices made by any British soldiers during WW1 or WW2?
No country has a perfect record if you go back far enough.

See it depends

WW1 expansionist bollocks where folk [generally poor] on all sides were slaughtered for no actual reason beyond greed for colonies and to see who was the hardest
I have seen the graveyards there dont tell me that was not a monumumental and colossal waste of human life b- if so many had not been so willing to sacrifice it could never have occurred so it is a double edged sword as on on side they will die to defend "freedom" and on the other they will inavde countries and kill for no good reason because they were ordered to and they did so-

WW2 was one for freedom v a nazi

I cannot support a person in uniform just because they wear a uniform

Like the police do is support them - what are they doing killing protestors, beating up miners, covering up Hillsborough or they 99.9% of good they actually do

The nationalism is that we remember our fallen and not all the fallen - we are not weeping for the innocent Afghanis killed in our " war" we are weeping only for our brave forces killed

there does seem a level of intolerance towards any view that is not 'fitting'

Case in point;somebody mentions serving "their country" is your example of nationalistic

yup, they're not remembering [i]the[/i] dead. they're remembering '[i]our[/i]' dead.

i haven't trolled at all. you just don't like what i'm saying

since we've got to the moment where those arguing against the point are making the point. i'm out.

remember, how you see fit.

yup, they're not remembering the dead. they're remembering 'our' dead.

nationalisism

Compete & utter cr@p.

Why?

Because your taking my comments out of context.

Go back & read my posts again.

Ive nothing against you having a different POV.

Id just be much happier if was presented it in a respectful fashion.

One-liners about trained killers being sensitive isnt respectful.

may I suggest stop being oh so brave behind your keyboard & toddle off down your local cenotaph & air your views there.

Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

I dare you to say that to a vet whose been in combat, go on...theres plenty around today - it shouldnt be too hard to find one..

I'd [i][b]happily[/b][/i] put a wager on you you getting your lights punched out with that attitude..

(intentional emphasis on "happily" there for anyone's benefit.)

Title of this thread: "the thread for negative views about remembrance"

About the most negative comments here are from you. In what context exactly, should one take these other than reading like threats by proxy? (I'm not upset btw, I wouldn't come on stw for a discussion if I got all uppity with a bit of dissin')

Oh and I just found another:

If you tried that on with some of my friends (whove recently lost a colleqgue) you had better stand by. Thats all Im saying.

Classy...

I have posted inthe other thread too. I am visitng a friend here and I was honoured that we have the chance to remember our heroes who died for our country in WWII my great-grandfather died on a destroyer in the pacific. I choose this day to remember him and i am gald that you would all join me in remembering and being grateful for what he did for his country.

Only a moron thinks it is a celebration of war and of course there is an element of patriotism, nationalism, jingoism etc etc as the day marks the loss of British and Commonwealth servicemen...

Why are the lives of those people considered more important than the lives of the millions of other people who die in conflicts worldwide? Only remembering our military war dead and no-one else is inherently jingoistic IMO and the occasion gets used to stir up support for 'our brave boys' in current and future conflicts.

I'd fully support Remembrance Day if it was about remembering those who have lost their lives in conflict worldwide, regardless of nationality or their job.

As long as war is a profitable business, wars will continue to happen. Should we remember fellow humans beings who have been unfortunate enough to be caught up in wars and lost their chance at life?

That is up to each of us to decide as individuals and should be respected.

Conflict is what happens when you fail to grasp that each of us has a right to our opinions and to choose our own actions, as long as our actions do no harm to others or do not have a detrimental effect on their quality of life. Then we should all respect that.

Conflict is always born of oppression or resistance to the will of others. Rather than demonstrating an inability to be reasonable and excepting the view points of others differ from our own, modern humans are condition to go into conflict mode.

Take a step back mentally and look at the situation, people have the right to remember, people have the right to say that it is being used as a way of distracting us from all the shit that's going on! If you can accept that without becoming emotional, then the issues that have formed on these threads can be resolved, if not then you will simply be trapped in a vicious cycle of escalating conflict and animosity.

All the stuff about threatening/castigating those who fail to have the 'correct' view (as approved by the establishment and tabloid media) is pretty sickening too tbh, and massively ironic.

And with the addition of post 72, I'm (most probably) oot.

I find its a time to remember all those who have died in conflicts on all sides as if others dont see it this way thats for them to decide.
Im not any more touchy at this time of year either.

However don't mock those that have fought for this country or their families and their loss.

I'm not sure anyone on this thread has Pingu?

Personally, I grew up in a heavily influenced military town, I have had, and continue to have, many friends who are in the forces and I now live in another military town. I'm a huge supporter of our troops and the job they do in often horrific circumstances.
I'm also a huge supporter of drawing everyone's attention to these troops, the many before them and all those families of troops and victims of conflict who have been affected, however, there is something, and I'm not able to actually place my finger on what it is, about Rememberance Day that makes me slightly uncomfortable.
That isn't to say I don't recognise it and I certainly wouldn't ever dis-courage anyone else to support it but it does mean I'm open to listening to others opinions regarding it, something I personally feel this thread has done quite respectfully.

Nice to be able to express your views pro or against. Maybe just be grateful you can .easy to mock those who gave their lives so you can sit there and belittle them

I think WW1 and 2 were pretty clear cut and that we were protecting the Uk from invasion - probably. Iraq and Afghanistan - IMO were/are illegal wars where we were/are poking our noses in without justification (other than brown-nosing America).

I'm sorry for EVERYONE who has died in wars (brown/white/yellow/christian/muslim/american indian/yeah you get the idea). War is horrible. You know what? It's 2012 and we think we're civilised. Well, can we please act in a 'civilised' manner and stop ****ing killing each other?

Didn't see any belittling andyruss, I read some discussion about what Remembrance Day seems to have become* and some talk about how the scope of 11/11 could do with widening.

And a whole load of negativity and some not at all veiled quasi-threats from the "pro" remembrance group

*ie some think its been hijacked for political jingoistic reasons

Donk referring to servicemen/women as trained killers on today of all days is not belittling them then