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The Sun thread rightly raises important questions about the underprivileged in our society, and the urgent need to extend help to them.
However, what has recently shocked me is the discovery of just how prevalent and damaging foetal alcohol syndrome is.
I always assumed - in my Guardian reading way - that Britain's underclass could be helped with good education and the right chances being offered to them. But it seems I may have been overly optimistic.
Was chatting to a teacher in one of Glasgow's less fortunate areas recently and he was saying the kids are genuinely as dumb as a bag of hammers in the majority of cases - their mother's didn't know any better, or simply didn't care, and kept drinking throughout the pregnancy.
The kids are then intellectually impaired as a result, and the education system isn't set-up in a way to help them, because in a Guardian reading way it assumes everyone can make something of themselves with the right chances.
So, these damaged kids are being mis-served by the education system and because they are dumb as a bag of hammers, they are going out and perpetuating the cycle.
The teacher was very upset about and I must say it left me profoundly shocked and upset. It was a reality check on my middle class outlook for sure.
Problem is, I have no idea what the answer is.
You cant give a baby booze !
I thought the worm in the bottom of bottles of mezcal was bad enough. Not to sure how i'd feel about a little fetus being stuck there instead.
ricochet_rob:You cant give a baby booze !
[url=
is ok tho..[/url]
I always assumed - in my Guardian reading way - that Britain's underclass could be helped with good education and the right chances being offered to them
Correct
Was chatting to a teacher in one of Glasgow's less fortunate areas recently and he was saying the kids are genuinely as dumb as a bag of hammers in the majority of cases
I hope that someone in education is not making those kind of generalisations.
their mother's didn't know any better, or simply didn't care, and kept drinking throughout the pregnancy.
So, we're back on the issue of good education again, in this case, education for the parents.
Problem is, I have no idea what the answer is.
I think you do. Education.
You cant give a baby booze !
You can, just add it to their milk and they will never notice, babies are stupid that way.
😉
According to my pharmacology text they actually have a smaller brain...it's not just the wiring that's gone wrong...scary hey!
FAS "sufferers" also look different
[img] 
[/img]
I think you do. Education.
All parents are educated WRT to this as soon as their pregnancy is confirmed by a doc?
You'd expect FAS sufferers to look hard and be well equipped in a fight but I reckon I could leather that kid above.
I'd hope you could leather most kids samuri, if not I'd question your manliness 😀
I'll just throw this in.....
we've been dealing with http://www.fasaware.co.uk to produce this course http://www.ncchomelearning.co.uk/FoetalAlcoholSpectrumDisordersFASD-NEW-Product-398.html
When you realise it's totally preventable, it's down to educating the masses.
Educating the masses? Works well with smoking/drugs/bad diet etc etc doesn't it. 😕
doh,
couldn't have put it better
On saturday, whilst driving out of town I stopped at some traffic lights. I commented to my missus at the strange looking little woman standing by the road side with her little girl.
My wife recongnised her and told me she remembered her as a customer of an off licence she used to work in. Apparently the woman (throughout her pregnancy) used to come into the off-licence. She used to buy Bacardi Breezer light, and Malboro light, and told the staff that the baby would be fine because of the "light" subtitle.
Obviously the staff were horrified but couldn't refuse to serve her when she was sober. They did however refuse her at any opportunity when they suspected she was already drunk.
The little girl standing with her looked exactly like her mother, both of them looked strangely similar to that creepy picture above.
Simple - new law dictating that all alcopops must contain a small dose of birth control pill! 😉
Educating the masses? Works well with smoking/drugs/bad diet etc etc doesn't it
Which proves what ? That the massses are incapable of being educated or that the standard of education isn't good enough to be effective.
Just go for the former if you find it easier to demonise people.
Simple - new law dictating that all alcopops must contain a small dose of birth control pill!
AND if you're a man and you drink alcopops you will get breasts as a punishment....
All parents are educated WRT to this as soon as their pregnancy is confirmed by a doc?
My wife was told [b]women in India work till the moment they need to give birth. they take a break and do it on the side of a field. So, really, don't worry....[/b]. A bit rich but the doc was called [b]Satanatan[/b]. Educate the medical staff in Feltham too, please!
Was chatting to a teacher in one of Glasgow's less fortunate areas recently and he was saying ..........in the majority of cases - their mother's ........kept drinking throughout the pregnancy.
Just out of interest, how did this teacher get the parents to divulge their drinking habits to him - including the level of alcoholic intake of the mothers during pregnancy ? I'm assuming that he doesn't have access to their personal medical records.
And do you know whether [i]all parents[/i] in 'Glasgow's less fortunate areas' entrust teachers with such intimate details of their private lives ?
Education alone (no matter how good) is not going to 'solve' this. Even when well-informed of cause/effect and consequences, humans don't always make the 'right' choices...
I'm assuming that he doesn't have access to their personal medical records.
I don't think your medical record will detail your drinking habits, unless surveillance is already more developed than I was aware ?
Indeed SFB. I was struggling to think of ways in which this teacher could have collected information concerning the drinking habits of his pupils mothers during pregnancy. Other than to ask them directly, the only other way that I thought such information could come available was, if there was some sort of medical research in which pregnant women were asked about their alcohol intake.
Maybe all the pregnant mums drink in the same pub as the teacher...
I did think about that Steelfreak. Presumably the teacher first checked that their drink was indeed alcoholic, and that they were in fact pregnant.
However I suspect that what the real problem is, is that the teacher, menothim, and probably quite a few 'middle-class' punters on here, need educating. Educating about the difference between 'assumptions' and 'facts'. Educating about things such as 'prejudices' and 'bigotry'.
I always assumed - in my Guardian reading way - that Britain's middle-classes could be helped with good education.
But it seems I may have been overly optimistic.
All women know that anything more than the occasional small amount of alcohol will harm their baby - the doctors tell them, as do the midwives at the pre-natal classes! The trouble is the mothers that ignore this aren't just stupid, they are just too selfish and immature!
The problem is not confined to diadvantaged parents! Any class woman can be "a lush"!
Was a certain well know celebritie's baby disabled by his mother's well publicised heavy drinking? I don't know, but we can be sure she totally ignored all the learned advice!
I know someone who smoked during pregnancy. Her child tragically developed a brain tumour and died at the age of 18 months. It was trully horrible! What a txxt to smoke during pregnancy! How many babies get brain tumours eh? The mother was not disadvantaged whatsoever, quite the reverse.
I bet someone will say i'm jumping to conclusions about a mother's pre-natal behaviour, but WTF!
Cetainly in our Health Board area one's medical records will contain information about whether you drink and or smoke, how much and if and when you stopped or started again at any point. When you answer questions at the health nurse or during a GP appointment, they record it all.
Looking at that picture of FAS facial symptoms is very disturbing. Barak Obama seems to have at least some of those features
And a couple of my colleagues at work have several
And looking in the mirror, I see a couple in me!
Is it scientific, or is it bollox?
one's medical records will contain information about whether you drink and or smoke, how much and if and when you stopped or started again at any point.
which might be the truth...
[i]You'd expect FAS sufferers to look hard and be well equipped in a fight but I reckon I could leather that kid above[/i]
hahahaha
AND if you're a man and you drink alcopops you will get breasts as a punishment....
Seems fair enough! <Al Murray> Real men drink British Beer, fruit based drink for the lady</Al Murray> 🙂
Looking at that picture of FAS facial symptoms is very disturbing. Barak Obama seems to have at least some of those featuresAnd a couple of my colleagues at work have several
And looking in the mirror, I see a couple in me!
Is it scientific, or is it bollox?
It's science.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series2/fetal_alcohol_syndrom_fas_pregnancy_drinking_learning_difficulties.shtml ]BBC blah of FAS[/url]
so how many fathers are now mentally visualising their offspring and checking off their facial features to see if the Mrs was knocking back the Vodka and cokes during prgnancy while they weren't looking?
😉
Doh - the education has to go both ways, some FAS children will never learn to do even simple tasks, ride a bike for example. But they are stuck in mainstream schools and treated as "thick" by their peers and difficult by their teachers.
The FAS aware NZ or Aus site has stories from the FAS kids themselves and it doesn't make nice reading
Which proves what ? That the massses are incapable of being educated or that the standard of education isn't good enough to be effective.
Just go for the former if you find it easier to demonise people.
Trailmonkey are you suggesting that we aren't educating people enough and it's not their fault?
My wifes pregnant, she was told smoking and drinking are bad for baby, everywhere you look in the maternity dep at the hospital is smoking=BAD signs, on the TV they have running adverts about smoking harming your baby but on the way in and out of the hospital there areplenty of heavily pregnant women smoking (dunno bout their drinking habits).
I'd say plenty of people get the message, maybe they think the doctors are making it up. Do you think the leaflets and adverts should have a note at the end saying "no really, we mean it, it [b]really IS[/b] bad for your baby"
Fact is plenty of people know stuff is bad for them but still do it, I'm sure everyone on this forum has some detrimental vice, smoking, drinking, eating too many kebabs (altho I know there are a few vegan teetotal non-smokers here there's probably sommat they do thats bad for them 😉 ) What I take exception to is people doing stuff thats bad for their children (unborn or otherwise) who can't say no, thats pure selfishness.
Admittedly I've had to give up bugger all during my wifes pregnancy.
Interestingly the documentary on FAS the other month had the medical profession pointing out that NO amount of alcohol is safe during pregnancy and that ANY amount can cause a FAS baby, it differs from one person to the next so the only safe advice is zero intake. The problem was that all the women they interviewed that drank while pregnant simply said "well they say I can have X units a week so I'm having them, why should I give up drinking for 9 months just because I'm pregnant, I have a life too" (not even paraphrasing, thats the word for word response from a fairly well off, well educated business woman).
I cannot fathom the selfishness and stupidity of people who smoke drink during pregnancy when they know it is bad.
Link added:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2479933.stm
You cant give a baby booze !
Its Un-cle Peter!
Visit Sheepridge in Huddersfield. It'll shock you just how/what people think and get upto.
Just because someone is "well off" and "educated" doesn’t mean they can't be an idiot.
STW is a good example of this 😆
Just because someone is "well off" and "educated" doesn’t mean they can't be an idiot.
I never said it did, I was pointing out that this isnt a "disease of the poor and ill-educated". It's a disease of the irresponsible and selfish, or the poor children of them anyway.
sofatester thats interbreeding NOT Alky abuse
Hence all the inbreds on STW?
My wife thought she'd spontaneously aborted and took a drink in consolation only to find she was still with child, so we were a little anxious, but said nipper turned out too clever by half (just like me 🙂
I'm assuming that he doesn't have access to their personal medical records.
The school and hence the teacher will know if a child has been formally diagnosed with FAS.
You can educate people all you want but that needs people to make good choices and take responsibility.
You can take a horse to water.... but it may still choose alchopops.
SFB, confused here from Manchester. What are you saying there 'partdner?
hmmm, the advice re: a small amount of alcohol during pregnancy was, up until recently, it's ok. Only since 2007 did the guidelines change to abstenance, and without any evidence that low levels of alcohol caused issues. Lowest common denominator policy IMO. Interesting article [url= http://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/fanning-the-flames-advice-on-drinking-in-pregnancy/ ]here[/url]
acjim, as long as I can drink. I DONT CARE 😉 😆 8)
What are you saying there 'partdner?
which part did you not understand ?
Are you saying she thought she had miscarried not aborted. Wrong wording?
Are you saying she thought she had miscarried not aborted
spontaneous abortion = miscarriage
I'm assuming that he doesn't have access to their personal medical records."The school and hence the teacher will know if a child has been formally diagnosed with FAS."
.
Which still doesn't help to explain how this teacher was able to claim that the majority of mothers kept drinking throughout their pregnancies - I'm assuming Longarmedmonkey, that you're not suggesting that the majority, ie 50+%, of this guy's pupils have been 'formally diagnosed with FAS' !
There is some interesting information here about the alcohol intake of scottish women in the the 'lowest' social class. Whilst the survey is 14 years old I doubt very much whether a more recent one would be vastly different. Plus of course it tallies very nicely with the drinking habits of scottish women at the time of a 14 year old's birth.
[url] http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/scottish/shealth/tab5-8.htm [/url]
[url= http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/scottish/shealth/shch5.htm ] Thus, 19% of women in Social Class I (based on chief income earner) consumed more than 14 units a week compared with only 9% in Social Class V (and an average of 13% for all women).[/url]
So the evidence suggests that scottish women from the 'underclass' as menothim likes to refer to them as, don't actually exceed the [i]recommended[/i] level of alcohol intake any more than women from other social classes.
Indeed 91% of scottish women in social class V don't exceed the [i]recommended[/i] alcohol intake which is better than any other social class. And furthermore, more than TWICE as many women from the highly educated social class I, fail to follow the recommended limits.
Now this of course doesn't tell us about drinking habits during pregnancy. But I refuse to believe that a social group in which 91% of women keep their drinking habits within healthy limits, produce more than 50% of children with 'formally diagnosed FAS'.
.
And since the central crux of the OP was, as are many other threads, to denounce, ridicule, and show contempt for a particular social class, may I just take the opportunity to express my own personal contempt for Britain's 'educated middle-classes' who in my experience unlike the 'lower-classes', appear to have staggering levels of prejudices.
And are clearly in many cases, just simply pig-ignorant. Since 'lack of education' is obviously not a problem, I wonder what [i]their[/i] excuse is ?
Which still doesn't help to explain how this teacher was able to claim that the majority of mothers kept drinking throughout their pregnancies
well, it may be raw prejudice, or perhaps the teacher could see them knocking it back outside the playground ?
Said this on another thread. Friend of mine who is a Teacher was in the pre-birth ward thingy in Macclesfield. She said two chavs were at it in the next bed along. NOW this is someone who has just given birth as well. Mind boggles.