[Closed] The Sopranos - Does it get better?

Has anyone mentioned Boardwalk Empire yet?
Definitely up there with the Sopranos for me.

First three yes. Ruined by the last season after it had been cancelled, a Game of Thrones in turbo.

Is there more to that than one character being appreciative of culture, the other not and being about business?

Yeah, but really not much! It was infinitely small, somewhat childish, and added nothing to the overall story - but imagine it must of been funny to put together, certainly made me laugh. Its a bit blink and you miss it.... Like in The Wire when Commissioner Rawls is momentarily seen through the crowd of a certain bar

BoardinBob - I think I know the CGI bit, was she sat in a chair?

Anyone watch Halt and Catch Fire?

Excellent show. Forgot about that one.

Boardwalk Empire was a second-rate Sopranos clone, quite forgettable. I like Steve Bushemi, but he was horribly miscast. Everyone back then jumped on the tormented antihero theme, it quickly became a cliche.

The Shield and Sons of Anarchy could have been excellent, but they just had such silly, implausible plots. In Sons of Anarchy, a string of cops go missing or are openly murdered in one small town, but nobody seems to bother to investigate? A biker gang smuggles weapons for the IRA, so they just load their bikes onto their buddy's private plane and fly off to Ireland for a bit of cruising round the countryside and the authorities never ask them what the **** they are doing there? If they'd stuck to petty small-town gang rivalry stuff, it would have been much better.

I really enjoyed it back in the day, should rewatch to see how it stands up now.

Shocked there's been only one mention of Twin Peaks in a thread about the best TV ever.

Really, the recent series was mind blowing. So far beyond other TV shows, it was like a different medium.

Shocked there’s been only one mention of Twin Peaks

I tried watching it way back in the day, just never got into it. Tried the new one. Same. Definitely classy, just never clicked with me.

Never really liked James gandolfini’s tony soprano character. I felt it was too linear and lacking in depth. There were no unusual character flaws to entice the viewer. He didn’t really do anything particularly unexpected for a ‘baddie’. Aside from the violence, all pretty hum-drum.

As for ‘the wire’, pardon the pun, but the protagonists always hit a ‘glass-ceiling’.
We never got to find out who was manipulating the drug-lords...investment bankers, global capitalism, city councils, property-developers, “cointelpro, the Cosby show”, etc.

That’s a problem shared by pretty much every show of its genre.

The only drama I’ve seen that dared to confront state-sponsored shadiness was the BBC’s ‘edge of darkness’.

The Shield and Sons of Anarchy could have been excellent, but they just had such silly, implausible plots.

This. They were both very watchable but frequently absurd, I'm really surprised people are talking about them in the same breath as stuff like The Wire and Sopranos.

There were no unusual character flaws to entice the viewer. He didn’t really do anything particularly unexpected for a ‘baddie’.

It was a family drama, except the dad was a psychopathic mobster, and his mom was too. It started with him having panic attacks triggered by the ducks flying away (metaphor for his kids growing up and leaving). It ended with him having lured his kids into the family business and them all sitting down for a meal together, so he was successful in keeping his family together, in both senses of "family". He ruthlessly murdered some close friends, felt bad about it for a bit, but his psychiatrist told him he was beyond help so he just shrugged and stopped worrying about it.

As for ‘the wire’, pardon the pun, but the protagonists always hit a ‘glass-ceiling’.
We never got to find out who was manipulating the drug-lords…investment bankers, global capitalism, city councils, property-developers, “cointelpro, the Cosby show”, etc.

There was no bigger conspiracy, just individuals doing whatever it took to get ahead. The police force was a bureaucracy, with most cops being a mixture of good intentions and flawed personalities. Some of the police leadership tried to improve things, but there were always political and bureaucratic obstacles, so it was mostly just a matter of muddling through as best they could. Getting ahead in a bureaucracy requires being pretty ruthless, so the good intentions were often thwarted by ambitious rivals. The same basic pattern was seen in the school system, the political system, the newsroom, the courts, and the drug dealers. Just a chaotic mixture of flawed people trying to get ahead, some trying to do the right thing, some not, but a system that is beyond the control of any individual.

I loved The Wire right up until the series depicting my profession at the time (news journalism), which portrayed it in such an inaccurate and clichéd way that it made me question the credibility of everything I'd seen on the show before.

I tried watching it way back in the day, just never got into it. Tried the new one. Same. Definitely classy, just never clicked with me.

You definitely need to have seen the first two series for the revival to mean anything. You probably need to be deeply invested in it for the full effect really, because David Lynch plays on that in a ruthless and very clever way.

It deconstructs televisual conventions and makes you see the invisible strings that dramas are usually pulling.

(/TV critic mode)

The original two series really hold up well too, IMO.

I loved The Wire right up until the series depicting my profession at the time (news journalism), which portrayed it in such an inaccurate and clichéd way that it made me question the credibility of everything I’d seen on the show before.

You know David Simon, the creator and writer of The Wire was a Police Reporter in Baltimore for years before he wrote the wire? What were the inaccuracies?

I loved The Wire right up until the series depicting my profession at the time (news journalism), which portrayed it in such an inaccurate and clichéd way that it made me question the credibility of everything I’d seen on the show before.

I thought the newsroom was the weakest part of it. As above, David Simon worked there and it looked to me like he had some axes to grind. I think he probably had a much more objective view of the police, town hall, and school systems because he'd reported on them and the characters were a bit more rounded. The newspaper people were walking cliches.

Sopranos stood up to a second watch, and a third and some episodes a lot more than that!

the only show ive watched every episode more times of is Curb.

thanks for the PSA on the youtube channel btw... thats me locked in for the next few days!!

I loved The Wire right up until the series depicting my profession at the time (news journalism), which portrayed it in such an inaccurate and clichéd way that it made me question the credibility of everything I’d seen on the show before.

The actor who played Paulie served jail time for armed robbery when he was young. Apparently, one of his conditions for taking the role was that he would not be an FBI informant.

Apparently, one of his conditions for taking the role was that he would not be an FBI informant.

Close but no cigar

It was actually a condition of Steve Van Zandt (Silvio Dante). He would only agree if they promised his character wouldn't be a rat.

Oops. I knew it was one of them.

There was no bigger conspiracy, just individuals doing whatever it took to get ahead.

rings true outside fiction

Currently working on series 4 of the Wire, never watched the Sopranos but really need to get round to it. Likewise Deadwood.

My big hitters are all mentioned previously (BB/Saul, The Deuce), but Six Feet Under definitely deserves more love than its one sole mention.

Much as I liked Breaking Bad, I probably enjoy Ozark as much to be honest.

Will have to see how it plays out, but I think Succession has a good chance of making my top 3 longer term.

The first truly gritty adult drama that I can remember was Oz, which I feel was truly ground breaking. I have thoroughly enjoyed most if not all of the series mentioned above, but I think my favourite has to be Deadwood.

I watched the first 4 seasons of Oz a couple of years ago on Amazon Prime. It was fascinating; not amazing TV, but you could really see how HBO and the producers were getting their heads around the ideas that would later go into the Sopranos, the Wire, etc.

The Wire S2 is fantastic and probably set it up for its subsequent success. They could have just focused on the same key characters as in S1, but the decision to branch out to the docks really brought in another dimension, and then the politicians (sheeee-it!) in S3; and S4 was just amazing stuff, packed with pathos and stories spread over so many levels of narrative.
The Shield S6-7 was, for me, absolutely unforgettable TV. Having been with the characters from the beginning, watching the long-expected disintegration happen in front of your (and their) eyes was just gripping.

Question about the West Wing: we're about halfway through S2 and frankly it's dragging quite a lot. S1 was good, in a kinda fluffy way, and I keep hearing it's an amazing series overall, but when does it get better than S2 again?

Yes I'm seeing a Lot of similarities with Ozark... The decent from entangled but kidding themselves they are nice and normal..to criminal overlords?

Ozark is derivative, watchable but mediocre. Sopranos was groundbreaking and created the prestige TV segment.

Ozark is derivative, watchable but mediocre. Sopranos was groundbreaking and created the prestige TV segment.

I think he was replying to me, and hence contrasting it to Breaking Bad rather than the Sopranos.

Ah, that makes more sense. Problem is, Ozark is still derivative and mediocre compared with Breaking Bad.

Currently working on series 4 of the Wire, never watched the Sopranos but really need to get round to it.

S4 is perhaps the best of the Wire.
And despite what people may tell you, there is no S5; it's just a cartoon pretending to be the Wire that will leave you feeling a bit nauseous. A bit like drinking whisky-flavoured butterscotch after a single malt...

Oh, biggest problem I had with Ozark was the acting! Jason Bateman comes from a long line of overactors that I find unbearable.

West Wing was patronising, self-indulgent liberal wish fulfillment (and I'm a lefty myself).

But I don't really click with Aaron Sorkin's fast-talking, walking down corridors style of TV/filmmaking. Veep was a MUCH more convincing view inside the US gov't.

Agree Ozark is derivative and formulaic, will probably still watch the next series.

If we're talking about Netflix productions, the best things they've funded are (IMO) The OA, Umbrella Academy (S1), Narcos and Glow.

I watched the first episode of Tin Star last night on Now TV, does it get any better?

Tin Star starts good and gets worse. The violent bits are the only thing worth watching for (series 2 was unbelievably silly)... and if anyone mentions that Gangs of London garbage..! 😂

I think the proto-series for The Wire was Homicide - Life on the Street. Some great characters like Andre Braugher and gripping stories. I was particularly impressed by the one where the soon-to-be murdered man was still alive squashed between the train and the platform.

Some great characters like Andre Braugher

I recall reading that The Wire was supposed to be seven series and they had to condense the last three in to one. Would explain quite a lot of it is true. Lots of rushed plot threads and characters acting out of character. The series that concentrates on the school system is hard hitting TV at its finest.

For guilty pleasure, but still good, TV I absolutely loved Justified. Walton Goggins is so good in it. I was peeved when Hap & Leonard got pulled too. The books are top fun.

S4 is perhaps the best of the Wire.

I've found S4 a real slow burner. Very limited amounts of Mcnulty and very heavy on the mayoral race really put me off to start. Now on ep 10 of 13 and it's really coming together. It's a pity S5 sounds like a dog! Think I have liked S2 best so far, really enjoyed the shift to the dockers.

If we’re talking about Netflix productions, the best things they’ve funded are (IMO) The OA, Umbrella Academy (S1), Narcos and Glow.

Funny that with their huge bags of money you picked two series in there that they dropped before they finished! I found The OA a bit mystical bollocks for me, but Glow was amazing. Narcos also fantastic obvs.

Forgot about Narcos. Really great series and Glow was fantastic too. Only a single series but I thought Godless was superb and really well shot.

we've an entire thread of netflix recommendations so I'll refrain...

Anway, Sopranos: each time I see/hear the HBO tone and white noise screen, I still hear the Alabama Three kick in "Woke up one morning, got myself a gun..." And I've watched a lot of HBO since the Sopranos ended. Absolutely superb but unfortunately aired on a Thursday night which meant my wife watched it and it was my pub night, if anyone remembers pubs, and I'd usually be in late as it did lockins. Sigh. So there's a few series I've missed half of. But not sure I can face going again from the beginning (my wife's memory for narrative being as poor as her self-restraint. Positives and negatives...). So waddyagonnado?

If anyone’s just watched all of The Wire and is in need of another fix, check out The Corner. Same director, a lot of the same actors, similar situation etc. Just the one season so brings you down gently after The Wire.

One of the great things about The Sopranos was it got the ending right and didn't go on to long . The shield and the Americans were others and honorable mention to Homeland for being great then rubbish then great again .

GOT , Dexter , Oz and Sons of anarchy  were all shows i really enjoyed for a while before finding the endings a bit unsatisfying  .

In answer to the thread title though Sopranos gets even better the second time round , you notice so much more .

One of the great things about The Sopranos was it got the ending right

Absolutely.

I remember it was controversial at the time but I thought they really nailed it and it said so much.

I found The OA a bit mystical bollocks for me

I don't usually go in for that kind of thing - because nothing can compete with Twin Peaks when it comes to weirdness - but The OA is the only other show I think has pulled it off.

Such a shame it was canned, the ending to S2 was stunning and a massive cliffhanger.

Anyone mentioned homeland yet? First 2 or 3 seasons... Later ones were not good

Apparently Homeland came back though - S5(?) onwards is apparently a real return to form.
Appreciating I'm repeating what's on the Netflix thread... for Netflix-funded series, Russian Doll is just amazing. So short, small, gripping and jam packed with ideas.

It is worth discussing Netflix productions in the context of The Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad etc though.

Their original shows don't quite have the same credibility and cultural cachet, but they are getting closer IMO.

Of course the best TV show of 2020 was a streaming service production anyway... The Mandalorian.

homeland S5? no it was awful. I'd given up on it part way through 4 but the wife made me sit threw more. it was torture.

Not sure if mentioned, but due in cinemas in March '21 (yeah, right) the Many Saints of Newark: sopranos prequel movie. I, for one, will be hitting the Vue when that finally arrives!

but due in cinemas in March ’21 (yeah, right) the Many Saints of Newark

Another quality series I'd recommend is "This is England", there's a film which is followed by 3 TV series. The film's 99p to rent on Amazon and the series' are all on All4.

Chase discusses the movie on that podcast mentioned earlier.

Young Tony is played by Gandolfini's son!

cant wait for it either, but in fairness all 86 episodes were like movies anyway - it will be like an extra length episode!

Homeland started off really well, if a bit contrived. Season 2 was not as good. I guess I watched Season 3 and gave up, not completely sure. It just got completely silly, the CIA analyst getting pregnant with the terrorist's baby. I heard it got better again, but I just wasn't interested anymore. If they'd stopped at one season, it would have gone down as a fantastic show.

@johnx2

Anway, Sopranos: each time I see/hear the HBO tone and white noise screen, I still hear the Alabama Three kick in “Woke up one morning, got myself a gun…” And I’ve watched a lot of HBO since the Sopranos ended. Absolutely superb but unfortunately aired on a Thursday night which meant my wife watched it and it was my pub night, if anyone remembers pubs, and I’d usually be in late as it did lockins. Sigh. So there’s a few series I’ve missed half of. But not sure I can face going again from the beginning (my wife’s memory for narrative being as poor as her self-restraint. Positives and negatives…). So waddyagonnado?

Snap! The starting HBO ident is ALWAYS followed by the Alabama 3 in my head. My current Mrs has never seen the Sopranos and usually shys away from violent TV but she's a counsellor and has mentioned watching it a couple of times. So on the back of this thread we watched the first two episodes last night. Tony looked a lot thinner than I remembered in the pilot and it was good to watch it with a fresh pair of eyes. I think I might end up watching it again - it will be very different watching it in chunks rather than waiting a week between episodes like in the old days.

Christopher's intervention where he shouts back at Tony for being a fat **** that will proabably die of a coronary 😳

Christopher sitting on Adriana's dog high on skag - 'she probably crept under there for warmth" 😳😂

Fila tracksuits, Carmela's matching outfits, Paulie's shoes, Janice & Ralph sharing the dildo.

Yes, the intervention was great.

The Soprano's is the only series that sees it through right till the end, the way the final scene plays out is brilliant. The final series of the Wire was rushed and under resourced but they both share the crown IMHO.

Has anyone seen the Spike Lee film 'Clockers'? People have mentioned 'Homicide, life on the street' and 'Oz' as influencers but 'Clockers', which came out in 1995 looks like a cross between the Wire and the Soprano's. You could take entire scenes from the film and tell people they were out takes from either series, it's only the fact that they share so many actors that the game would be given away.

Clockers was written by Richard Price, who went on to write for The Wire.

TV is reducing the output of Richard Price and George Pelecanos, two authors that I really enjoy reading.

If you like The Wire their books are great.

I've read the book of Clockers, a long time ago - I remember it being great. Don't think I've ever seen the film. Will check out George Pelecanos stuff too, thanks.

Question about the West Wing: we’re about halfway through S2 and frankly it’s dragging quite a lot. S1 was good, in a kinda fluffy way, and I keep hearing it’s an amazing series overall, but when does it get better than S2 again?

Don't get me wrong, I love the West Wing. I've seen it end-to-end maybe three times, and still watch loads of ad-hoc episodes when they're on Sky. The characters are all excellent (bar an exception below), you really fall in love with them.

However Series 1 and 2 suffer a bit from the "we'll all sit on the stoop and have a beer and talk about how America is great" sappy ending to each episode. And they have the Mandy character, who is just crap (not the actress, the character).

Overall though, the problem with it now is that it's the politics that have dated; when it came out, politics was 'reasonably' honorable, and you could believe that everyone involved was trying to do the right thing for the common good (however they themselves defined what the right thing was, and there's some great debates in the program between the left and right political wings). The Matt Santos character from later series was literally based on Barack Obama, at the time a young, charismatic, relatively junior politician.

Politics is now so utterly poisonous that the show now seems overly idealistic and contrived, which is a shame on many, many levels.

Politics is now so utterly poisonous that the show now seems overly idealistic and contrived,

I watched the first season, it was an ok show, but it was very contrived - a liberal's dreamy fantasy about how politics works.

Yeah, that's what I thought about S1 at the time too.

And I'm not that jaundiced about politics compared to some these days.

a liberal’s dreamy fantasy about how politics works.

I think it's more about how politics could work, so an idealised version of the politics at the time, which given what's happened since makes it seem like fantasy.

The characters are still great though. And wouldn't anyone wish for a President like Bartlett at the moment?

Chase discusses the movie on that podcast mentioned earlier.

Young Tony is played by Gandolfini’s son!

cant wait for it either, but in fairness all 86 episodes were like movies anyway – it will be like an extra length episode!

I really hope it's good. The Deadwood film was a bit flat.

Supposedly Tony isn't the lead character, it centres around Dickie Moltisanti (Christopher's Dad) who is mentioned a lot in the series, but never seen. Molti Santi is Italian for 'Many Saints'.

makes sense as Tony is only a minor figure until much later in the timeline. Hopefully though they include the often talked-about scene where he and Jackie Aprile knock over the high-stakes poker game!

an idealised version of the politics at the time

This was back when Newt Gingrich and the Clinton impeachment was still very fresh in everyone's mind. Nobody succeeds in politics by being hopelessly idealistic, but the partisanship back then had already grown very toxic. The West Wing was pretty naive, even by the standards of when it was made.

Just seeing her picture makes my blood pressure spike.

https://twitter.com/ZaraRahim/status/1365734916902780937