[Closed] The SNP's record in government

Evening. I agree avoid the independence mire argument, I love Scotland, it'd be an interesting debate on what the SNP has/is doing.

Thanks Theresa for your work in England

High Hedges (Scotland) Act 2013

Winner

Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012

I haven't particularly looked at this legislation to know if it's any good. What I do know is that the SNP have overseen its implementation and are therefore ultimately responsible for completely ****ing up policing in Scotland.

Haven't read the detail of all those bills, but in general I think they're doing okay. Not brilliant on cycle provision, a bit too fawning towards big business for my liking, but I think their heart is in the right place.

Not having to pay any business rates is nice.

[quote=thegreatape ]Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012
I haven't particularly looked at this legislation to know if it's any good. What I do know is that the SNP have overseen its implementation and are therefore ultimately responsible for completely ****ing up policing in Scotland.

Not just the Police they have ****ed up the Fire Service in scotland as well

Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015

Is brilliant - you need police clearance and certificates to certificate to run an air rifle club or range

problem is, you [b]don't [/b] need them to set up a real rifle range, as a result people have been setting up .22 gallery ranges, where the owner is able to purchase weapons and ammo without any certification or paperwork, because its easier than setting up an air rifle club 😆

Ooh ooh. I think I know the answer to this one.

Is it because licensing of "real" guns is reserved to Westminster?

Yep 🙂

Theres no figures out for certificates yet, but according to the trade, they've seen a boom in people deciding to buy real guns, because if you're going to go to all the trouble of getting a certificate, you might as well get a real gun, so by trying to reduce the number of airguns in circulation, they've just increased the number of real ones.

the law of unintended consequences 🙂

So isn't that a problem with firearm regulations not being strict enough at Westminster, then? Not really the SNP's fault if Westminster won't tighten up on them.

So isn't that a problem with firearm regulations not being strict enough at Westminster, then? Not really the SNP's fault if Westminster won't tighten up on them.

How is more people utilising a perfectly legal cause within the legislation a problem?

That part of the law hasn't changed since 1968 in in fact the principle goes back about a hundred years - the fact that Scotland didn't figure in what would happen when they changed their own law is either incompetence or just an unintended consequence 😀

Depends if you think guns are a bad thing, I suppose.

I've been shot with an air rifle, it wasn't pleasant. Though probably not as bad as being shot with a bow, which isn't regulated.

The removal of Double Jeopardy was a bad one IMO.

If the state is going to prosecute, then they should only be allowed one bite of the cherry, and need to do it right.

Not impressed by their airgun and knife laws either.

The removal of Double Jeopardy was a bad one IMO.

"When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

Crimes Involving a Firearm
[img] [/img]

Looks like air weapons are the biggest problem

scotroutes - Member
'The removal of Double Jeopardy was a bad one IMO.:
"When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

True enough, but the removal of Double Jeopardy is eventually going to get abused by the state, and that is why we need it.

This is a desperately needed piece of legislation imo- Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Act 2012.

"Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012"

A terrible bit of authoritarian law.

If you are a bigot. Oh....

The leadership are certainly being forced to think again on Land Reform. I suspect much of the "new intake" has mord fundamental change in mind.

At the weekend, on LBC, Ken Livingstone compared the SNP to a communist party!

Basically he was saying that if you dissented from the party line you would be ejected somehow.

TurnerGuy - Member
At the weekend, on LBC, Ken Livingstone compared the SNP to a communist party!
Basically he was saying that if you dissented from the party line you would be ejected somehow.

By now Scots are used to Labour party high heid yins making these sort of fact free statements.

Perhaps he could point to some evidence of this?

It certainly was noticeable in the recent Labour party leadership election... 🙂

Meanwhile at the SNP conference there was mass dissent and the party line on Land Reform received some adjustment.

And the fracking debate wasn't exactly according to plan. Ken talking pish - whodathunkit

Perhaps he could point to some evidence of this?

Friend of my parents was a Labour councilor in Edinburgh, but jumped to SNP. After a year of being told not to step out from the party line, they quit. SNP councilor in Dumfries also eventually quit when they were told not to challenge what came from up high.

I would disagree that the SNP are 'communist', but they are heavily centralised. Look at Police Scotland, the Named Persons thing, proposal to centralise health records, Land Reform, etc. and you can see why people who aren't blinded by the light shining out of Sturgeon's arse might be a little concerned.

Kit - Member
...I would disagree that the SNP are 'communist', but they are heavily centralised. Look at Police Scotland, the Named Persons thing, proposal to centralise health records, Land Reform, etc. and you can see why people who aren't blinded by the light shining out of Sturgeon's arse might be a little concerned.

I also don't like the centralisation trend, however when the money supply is restricted, it's an obvious economy measure. Fiscal efficiency versus operational efficiency.

Maybe Scotland should have full fiscal control over its funds.

I wonder how that could happen.... 🙂

(I'm not a SNP member, and see no light shining from any of their arses 🙂 )

it's an obvious economy measure.

or an obvious anti-democratic measure ?

I accept your point about SNP centralisation in general Kit though some of it has imo been done with good reason,but I dont see how land reform is centralisation quite the opposite in fact. (edit)

Perhaps it's not an indication of centralisation, but I just wanted to gripe about it 😉 I don't see how the bill can progress without some firm legislation about triggers for challenging legitimately owned assets, from a rurally naive central government.

If you are a bigot. Oh....

The SNP's authoritarian legislation has been criticised by both Liberty* and Index on Censorship.
https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/free-speech-and-protest/speech-offences
https://www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/11/scotland-football-hate-law-confused-and-unnecessary/

* the human rights organisation, not the expensive shop

@ Kit I don't see Land Reform as a "rural" only issue. There are implications for cities too especially in housing, with some of our biggest builders holding on too landbanks to build poor quality houses for maximum profit without providing any of the amenities needed to make a housing scheme a real community. In rural terms some landowners hold too much power,being landlord, employer, and sometimes councillor/mp/msp as well.Finally there is also poor stewardship of land in public ownership.
https://commonspace.scot/articles/358/down-but-not-out-castle-toward-community-takes-fight-to-scandal-ridden-argyll-and-bute-council

Bagehot had a review of SNP record in this week's Economist as well. Made many of the same points
A small snippet -

Ironically, the Scottish government’s underperformance rests precisely on the formula that makes it dominant. Special-interest groups are indulged, populist spending protected, services left unreformed for fear of making enemies, tabloid-friendly changes embraced and an “other” (the English, represented by Westminster) fingered for every failure or disappointment. The SNP’s soft autocracy in Scotland is the thread holding together the party’s distinctive tartan of universal handouts, leftist posturing, melodramatic flag-waving and structural conservatism. It amounts to a style of government that is more akin to Argentina’s Peronists than to the reformist Scandinavian social democrats to whom SNP politicians flatteringly compare themselves.

Isn't it more important to look at how they've run the budget and what taxation changes they've made and whether they've been successful. Legislating around air rifles strikes me as a waste of parliamentary time given other priorities.

@gordi if you want social housing it should be built by the government. It's provision should be nothing to do with the private sector. Let the SNP be judged on what they are doing to provide social housing, they can spend property taxes on building homes

jambalaya - Member
Isn't it more important to look at how they've run the budget and what taxation changes they've made and whether they've been successful. Legislating around air rifles strikes me as a waste of parliamentary time given other priorities.

Not just the legislation is it? The transparency and fairness with which you apply them make a big difference.

<cough> planning decisions for Trump golf resort </cough>

@ Jambalaya as far as social housing goes the SNP have the best record of any Scottish government. http://www.scottishhousingnews.com/4958/social-housing-completions-up-almost-20-per-cent-under-snp/

<cough> planning decisions for Trump golf resort </cough>

Yup, that's one reason I'm not a SNP member.

ninfan - Member

Point of the thread to get down what the Scottish gov are actually doing for Scotland with the power they have.

Likewise if you feel they are doing good or bad outwith this list, or that some of the above isn't relevant for whatever reason, please say so. [b]Only criteria i'd suggest is that it's attributable to the SNP.[/b]

The floor is yours! 😉 tbh, i'm not particularly wanting to say too much in the thread. Much is made of the SNPs poor record, I have my own opinions, as do alot of others, I'm genuinely curiously to hear others opinions, criticism or praise welcome..

Andrew Neil doesn't seem too impressed with them anyway, or the guy's ability to give answers.

For me, them pulling renewable energy funding to Scottish companies was unforgivable, especially after Salmond had spent so long bigging up the industry. Terribly short sighted and a waste of everything that had been done before.

@gordi that's a good thing then, I was responding to your post about the private profit motive which I see as irrelevant in this.

@seaso - if you are happy with their performance then that's good, it's your concern not mine thanks to devolved powers. I think there is a very short list of STWers, me most definitely not included, who are going to read the contents of a Holyrood finance bill and in any case it's the implementation not the legislation. I have to say I have low expectations based on the nature of their economic arguments I've been exposed to over the past 2 years.

I can't stand their centralisation of everything is deeply disturbing and police Scotland is a disaster. Paramedic we spoke to recently didn't have a good word to say about the SNP.

@dragon - genuine question - does it really make sense to regionalise government in a country of just 5m people ? Surely thats a recipe for a bloated government

The air weapons legislation is completely ridiculous as pointed out, totally born off the back of Daily Record populism. How exactly anyone expects this to be enforced is beyond me.

Also, not being able to buy a bottle of beer after a night shift is a pain in the hole, I'm sure all the jakeys have given up the Super T now that they have till ten o'clock to think about their sins. Or maybe it keeps them out the way of commuters who think the problem is solved. Who knows...

From what I understand Curriculum for Excellence is a heap of shite as well.

Jamba - we went from a two tier system of regional authorities and local councils in the early 90s to larger councils but no regional authorities, decentralisation if you like. No, it doesn't make sense but I'm nit sure if we have the power to change that.

@ jambalaya It's the unrestrained profit motive aka greed that is motivating corporations to hold onto land banks and driving up the cost of getting a home in this country so that's hardly irrelevant

[quote=jambalaya ]@dragon - genuine question - does it really make sense to regionalise government in a country of just 5m people ? Surely thats a recipe for a bloated governmentExactly - how many police forces does England have with 10x the population?

But how much do you really save as the demands on Glasgow intercity policing are wildly different from that in rural parts of the Highlands. Plus what we see is more centralisation with the big jobs in the central belt and a force that has too much power and can be influenced by the government too much.

For me it is less about population size and more about ensuring that there are suitable checks and balances.

@scot not sure what your point is but FWIW I think it's crazy we have police forces in each English county / large city with separate purchasing for things like vehicles. Many big fishes in small ponds.

jambalaya - Member

My opinions are actually to the negative side, point of this thread, I've posted it elsewhere aswell, is to put my opinions back to a neutral stand point and base it on evidence alone. I reckon my opinions in recent time have been coloured by bias against them.

This and the another thread is just a small part of that process.

Policing demands in rural parts largely follow the same social causation factors as in Glasgow; drink, drugs, poverty, stress, hopelessness = violence, dishonesty, disorder, domestic abuse, suicide etc.

Same shit, prettier surroundings.

gordimhor - Member
I accept your point about SNP centralisation in general Kit though some of it has imo been done with good reason

@joseph your "SNP record" is just a list of legislation passed in Holyrood. Perhaps we could discuss reduced health spending compared to England and Wales, the disaster that is Police Scotland and why we have higher unemployment than England and Wales?

Same shit, prettier surroundings

To an extent, yes, but also until recently policed and dealt with very differently, to suit the differences between large inner city communities and smaller rural communities. Not any more, one size fits all is the new mantra. Except in reality it doesn't, and the service provided to most communities in Scotland has deteriorated significantly as a result of SNP led Strathclyde implemented top down control freakery.

This centralisation of the police contradicts their argument that independence will allow Scotland to do what's best for Scotland, rather than be dictated to by an out of touch elite who think what's good for the south east is good for everyone. The hypocrisy seems to have gone over their heads. At least the local SNP door knockers had the decency to admit that it made no sense when they were going round pre referendum.

The disaster that is Police Scotland, plus the Trump debacle, are why they won't get my support without some substantial changes and humility.

bencooper - Member
<cough> planning decisions for Trump golf resort </cough>
Yup, that's one reason I'm not a SNP member.

You espouse the benefits of a possible independent Scotland with all the vigour of one of Nicola's inner cult yet when challenged you always fall back on the defence of "I'm not an SNP member". If September's vote had gone the other way and we were now facing an £8billion shortfall with the consequent nightmare austerity levels I'm sure you'd still be whining "well I'm not an SNP member so don't blame me".

bearGrease - Member
@joseph your "SNP record" is just a list of legislation passed in Holyrood. Perhaps we could discuss reduced health spending compared to England and Wales, the disaster that is Police Scotland and why we have higher unemployment than England and Wales?

None too impressed with the Police Scotland fiasco.
Wife's a teacher and isn't too impressed with how the Curriculum for Excellence is used.
Not impressed with free school meals for all P1-3. Those in need already qualified. Saved me money briefly but not necessary.
NHS seems slower to get anything done. I'd rather pay for prescriptions and have the money in services.
Gaelic schools disproportionate funding.
Double jeopardy.

But the big one is the high handed level of debate, dismissing anyone who disagrees in a play the man, not the ball fashion.

But in some ways that's par for the course - no matter who was in power there'd be something to object to. But with the SNP I find little to commend them on to balance against the list of negatives - dropping the drink drive limit is about it.

oldbloke - Member
None too impressed with the Police Scotland fiasco.
Wife's a teacher and isn't too impressed with how the Curriculum for Excellence is used.
Not impressed with free school meals for all P1-3. Those in need already qualified. Saved me money briefly but not necessary.
NHS seems slower to get anything done. I'd rather pay for prescriptions and have the money in services.
Gaelic schools disproportionate funding.
Double jeopardy.

But the big one is the high handed level of debate, dismissing anyone who disagrees in a play the man, not the ball fashion.

But in some ways that's par for the course - no matter who was in power there'd be something to object to. But with the SNP I find little to commend them on to balance against the list of negatives - dropping the drink drive limit is about it.

Truly remarkable........

please do. Legislation was just the easiest thing to list to give an unbiased start to the thread. I don't want to limit it to it.

please do. Legislation was just the easiest thing to list to give an unbiased start to the thread. I don't want to limit it to it.

A quick look at the facts, as listed by other posters on this thread, can only lead to the conclusion that the SNP's performance is poor across the board. Now if you have a belly full of kool-aid from the Aberdeen shindig I'm sure the picture looks rosier and any naysayers must be Tory running dogs.

I'm not arguing any position.

@Beargrease yes I really believe it though the Police Scotland project has been cackhanded from the outset and should be radically changed. It was done to save money,but has lost all local control. The Forth Crossing is on time and on budget http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/forth-bridge-taking-shape-and-under-budget-1-3376637
I'm content with the budgets under Swinney though I would prefer to see the council tax replaced.
I am also pleased that they found funds to ameliorate the worst effects of the bedroom tax.
www.heraldscotland.com/.../labour-backs-snp...bedroom-tax.1390416936

@bencooper, you really do need to grow a pair sunshine!
You espouse the benefits of a possible independent Scotland with all the vigour of one of Nicola's inner cult yet when challenged you always fall back on the defence of "I'm not an SNP member".

That's the beautiful thing about independence - in an independent Scotland, we can all vote for who we want to. Even better, because it's not a FPTP system, who we all vote for actually matters.

Wanting independence doesn't make me a SNP supporter, we just share that goal.

I'm beginning to think none of you understood the point of the thread, or some basic principles outlined in the OP!

Curious that a fitba forum provided the more balanced discussion! 😆

Anyhow, cheers for the contributions! 😕 😆

bencooper - Member
...Wanting independence doesn't make me a SNP supporter, we just share that goal.

That the SNP has only 115,000 members does not seem to be understood in the media. The other 1 million+ of us simply share the goal of independence.

I'm prepared to put up with the SNP's mistakes while waiting for independence, and I suspect most of us share that attitude. At least they are trying to run a more humane govt, and are open to change direction from public pressure. Persecution of the weak and vulnerable we leave to the red and blue Tories.

They've taken an education system that was decent but needed some updating and f*cked it up beyond all recognition. I don't believe parents of secondary pupils in Scotland realise how shambolic it is, if they did they'd be baying for blood.

But still the juggernaut that is the SQA rolls on quoting stock phrases like 'unprecedented support' 'stringent quality assurance' and 'produced to the highest standards'.

That's the beautiful thing about independence - in an independent Scotland, we can all vote for who we want to.

Even better, because it's not a FPTP system, who we all vote for actually matters.

basic civil liberties would have been at risk from the "party

Persecution of the weak and vulnerable we leave to the red and blue Tories.

@gordi surely Scotland can pass their own planning law which says land with planning permission must be built on. Aside from that if a builder buys farmland / brownfield sites with no planning permission who is to say they can't just sit on it ? As I said the solution lies with the scots government, they have plenty of land under their control and they can build on it.

Scotroutes...

"Exactly - how many police forces does England have with 10x the population?"

They too are being merged, are short-staffed and have a morale problem, all thanks to Teresa Shoes. I don't suppose it's much different from Scotland.

There's been a bit of a fuss at the SNP Conf over land ownership, with the grass roots wanting more change than the organisation offered. This should be interesting.

The Forth Crossing is on time and on budget

Is it though? It genuinely might be but people keep saying the Borders railway was on time and budget and an SNP success (actually scottish gov had very little input into it and in the end the railway was delivered by network rail as they couldn't find anyone else who wanted to build it), but actually it came in over 3 times the original agreed budget, they just kept upping the budget before building it, so when the building was finished they were able to say it was on budget. Same with the timescale.

jambalaya - Member
@dragon - genuine question - does it really make sense to regionalise government in a country of just 5m people ? Surely thats a recipe for a bloated government

You seem to have confused independence with democracy. The SNP don't have a great record on the latter or for free speech.

Really? Who's limiting my free speech? Much more under threat from the Tories than from the SNP.

Your're right about independence vs. democracy. Problem is, we don't live in a democracy, we live in a pseudo-democracy. Unelected Lords get to decide on laws, and get there by donating to political parties. FPTP means the Westminster parliament is not representative of the voters' wishes. How do we fix Westminster? We can't - it's beyond repair. No-one has the guts to burn it down and start again, so we have to. Hence independence is the only way to get democracy in Scotland.

10 years after independence, I highly doubt anyone - not even the SNP - would have a majority government. Remember the Holyrood voting system was specifically designed by Donald Dewar to prevent the SNP getting a majority - the fact that they do shows we're in extraordinary times. After independence, with proper Scottish opposition parties instead of the pathetic shower of incompetents we have at the moment, it's pretty certain we'd end up with a much more balanced government.

Unelected Lords get to decide on laws

No they don't.

Edit laws, whatever. Unelected people shouldn't be anywhere near the law-making process is my point.

Remember the Holyrood voting system was specifically designed by Donald Dewar to prevent the SNP getting a majority

Was it? Can you explain how that "specifically" works to "prevent the SNP getting a majority"?

bencooper - Member

Edit laws, whatever. Unelected people shouldn't be anywhere near the law-making process is my point

you clearly don't get how the EU works do you 😉

Was it? Can you explain how that "specifically" works to "prevent the SNP getting a majority"?

Certainly, here's Sir Malcolm Bruce explaining it:

you clearly don't get how the EU works do you

We have elections for MEPs, don't we?

here's Sir Malcolm Bruce explaining it:

I think you need to listen to the video again, what he said was that if they stuck with his proposal (AMS via an adjusted single vote) then they wouldn't have had an SNP majority.

So again, how is the voting system "specifically designed to prevent the SNP getting a majority"?

Yup, they didn't manage to rig the system to his satisfaction 😀

How about the LSE? "...the architects of devolution in the first Blair government, who deliberately chose a (broadly) proportional electoral system so as to minimise the risk of a Nationalist majority in Parliament ever moving Scotland towards independence."

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/snp-scotland-victory/
(An interesting article in lots of ways)

Also interesting: http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-statute-of-limitations/

We have elections for MEPs, don't we?

the EU version of the House of Lords

The Council

[b]The Council of the EU is the EU's main decision-making body[/b]. It is the embodiment of the member states, whose representatives it brings together regularly at ministerial level. Council meetings are prepared by the Committee of Permanent Representatives which is made up of ambassadors to the Union from member states' own governments. These ambassadors act as a link between the member states & the EU. Their preparatory work and the agreements they make on non-contentious proposals mean that when the ministers meet much has been agreed and only matters still in dispute need to be negotiated.

The Council:
•is the EU's legislative body, (exercising that power in co-decision with the Parliament)

•coordinates the economic policies of the member states

•concludes, on behalf of the EU, international agreements with other states or international organisations

•shares budgetary authority with Parliament

•develops the EU's common foreign and security policy, on the basis of general guidelines established by the Council

•coordinates the activities of member states and adopts measures in the field of police and judicial cooperation.

Non of the above quotes explain your proposition that the voting system specifically prevents the [b]SNP[/b] getting a majority. My argument isn't that an AMS based system via (an element of) proportionality make the forming of a majority government unlikely - that is what it is designed to do. It is your very specific statement that the system was design to prevent the [b]SNP[/b] getting a majority.

Whilst this is perhaps a sideshow to the original topic, I think it highlights one of the things that the SNP has done very well, they have played a blinder in the PR game of politics, they have used social media very well and along with their stooge in Bath spread a huge amount of misinformation which the electorate has lapped up (with a side helping of confirmation bias).

Ho hum.

"BBC Scotland political editor Brian Taylor says the voting system used in the Scottish Parliament was designed by a Labour goverrnment at Westminster with the "explicit" intention of preventing the SNP from gaining a majority of the seats on a minority of the popular vote."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/9474173.stm