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I quite like Mark Felton's youtube channel. He covers some interesting and often overlooked aspects of WW2 history, as well as stuff on the cold war, Falklands, Iraq and others. The subject of this video however, was completely new to me, and on the face of it quite provocative. Just me, or is this common knowledge? In retrospect I suppose it's not that surprising really, plenty of people in the British establishment, including the press and royalty flirted with fascism in the 1930s, though the video suggests the SNP's interest continued into the 40's and throughout the war.
It's a bit light on detail mind and doesn't seem to amount to much more than some party members being considered 'subversive', anti war or pro German in an 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' kind of way.
For the record, this is not a dig at the modern SNP and I'm not suggesting for a moment that such views have any traction these days. I know that all political parties who have been established for any length of time have skeletons in their closet. I just thought it was an interesting slant on UK WW2 history.
I always thought it was fairly borderline that the uk went against fascism rather than joining it in the 30's.
Glad we did, but from reading various books it always felt close.
Plus don't forget it was far from just us, the US had some pretty big nazi rallies at madison Square Gardens back then too
True. It seems fascism was almost mainstream in some quarters in the 30's, perhaps as a backlash to bolshevism and fear of revolution before the full extent of Nazi genocide and European conquest had materialised.
There were also links between Irish nationalists and Nazi Germany. Including shared intelligence.
the US had some pretty big nazi rallies at madison Square Gardens back then too
BBC4 had an interesting series on the 'US and the Holocaust' that was on recently. Those rallies featured in that.
There were also links between Irish nationalists and Nazi Germany. Including shared intelligence.
True, but I don't think they ever amounted to a great deal of any strategic substance Conversely, the Irish 'Free State' government despite being officially neutral in WW2 secretly allowed the RN and RAF to use Irish airspace and waters on many occasions to counter the U-Boat threat.
Just as well none of the English establishment sided with Hitler and the Nazis.
From my OP.....
plenty of people in the British establishment, including the press and royalty flirted with fascism in the 1930s
I believe in the 30s the UK were more wary of Russia and the Germans even more so, and were looking at Anglo-German alliance as being that which would win over the communists for mutual benefit. It was just the way the war and the world moved on that made the UK move the way they did by declaring war and their alliances in WW2, we look back just now at nazi's and can't comprehend how there could be an alliance, but the reality is, before WW2 they had more in common with a lot of the centre right politics in the UK.
but the reality is, before WW2 they had more in common with a lot of the centre right politics in the UK.
Arguable we are heading full circle again
I always thought it was fairly borderline that the uk went against fascism rather than joining it in the 30’s.
There are photos of London in the 30’s decorated with Swastika flags and with Nazi troops at attention along the roads at the funeral of a senior German member of parliament, and it’s suggested that had he not died at that time, he was likely to have been able to stop Hitler’s advances in Politics, changing the whole course of European politics.
I’ll see what I can did up a sec.
Yup, the German Ambassador, in 1936:
https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/a-nazi-funeral-in-london/
Adam Rutherford did a bit on eugenics on his BBC podcast bad blood.
Apparently the Germans modelled their original eugenic policy on the American's policy but felt the American's policy was a bit too extreme.
Maybe not directly facisim but all related somewhat at the time.
I was out paddling on Loch na Keal, sea Loch on west Mull and discussion wandered onto the subject of Inch Kenneth, a small deserted island, previously a monastery and a house owned by 30s socialites, the Mitfords. One of the sisters, Unity was a rabid Nazi, in Hitler’s inner circle but eventually attempted suicide at the outbreak of WW2. However, was unsuccessful at shooting herself in the head and lived for a further 4 painful years including some time at Inch Kenneth, probably shouting at men in small boats…
Argee with respects I don't think that is true, throughout the 1930s and German rearmament Britian and France saw Germany as potentially a very dangerous enemy.
For obvious reasons Britian and France were reluctant to form an alliance with the Soviet Union on Germany's eastern flank and chose instead Poland, which they misjudged to be potentially more powerful than it was.
Britian (and France) had nothing in common with Germany. Britian (and France) had an empire, Germany did not. The expansion of the Third Reich was always intended to be eastward and the vast Soviet lands.
The Nazis quite reasonable concluded that Britian (and France) would not allow Germany to have a vast empire stretching to the Pacific Ocean.
The Nazis attack of Western Europe, after Britian (and France) declared war following the Germany's invasion of Poland, was never the goal but the perceived need to achieve the goal, ie eastward expansion.
There was never the vaguest possibility of Britian (and France) forming an alliance with Germany to defeat the Soviet Union. The thought of Germany being a the biggest superpower in the world stretching from the French-German border to the Pacific would have filled the imperialist minds of the British (and French) with horror.
Edit: Obviously this does not deny the indisputable fact that there were Nazi sympathizers within the British (and French) establishment.
Arguable we are heading full circle again
Possibly not so much ideological as it was in the 30's though.
Now, it's more about certain parties discovering that there's "cash in fasc."
I quite like Mark Felton’s youtube channel.
It's not very well thought of by more "serious historians", considered to be clickbait.
Mainly because
It’s a bit light on detail
Answering the exam question; yes, it seems to be fairly common knowledge among the SNP-aware/SNP supporters that I know. Mostly because it was used as a form of ammo during ScotRef, I would think.
Nationalist organisation in Country A had links with nationalist organisation in Country B shouldn't be a shock to anyone really.
"Having links to" is obviously not the same as "fully endorses the policies of" I should add, I don't know enough to comment on those specifics.
BBC4 had an interesting series on the ‘US and the Holocaust’ that was on recently.
One of the things in that series that stopped me dead was the narrator saying that as late as 1942, a poll conducted in the USA found that 1 in 6 Americans thought that "Hitler was doing the right thing" when it came to his treatment of Jews. 1942!
The Times ran a poll of 5000 young voters just last year; and disappointingly, there was a 2/3 majority in favour of electing a "Stongman who would defy Parliament" a similar poll run in Australia found only 52% thought that democracy was preferable to any other form of government, and 40% of young Brazilians said they'd support a military coup to bring order and stop corruption and crime. And all of this says nothing about the ride of new actual authoritarian governments
Sometimes it does all feel very fragile
Nazi Germany was not an independence movement. It was an imperialist movement. The term nationalist has little relevance in this case. The only shared common goal was anti-british establishment.
One of my mums cousins* played a role in the SNP moving away from that end of the spectrum in his time among the party leadership:
Edit: * possibly a second cousin (family trees/family history has never been a big thing for me)
It’s not very well thought of by more “serious historians”, considered to be clickbait.
You'll forgive me perhaps for saying that's incredibly elitist and snobby - not you, but the 'serious historians' you refer to.
I don't think anyone clicks on a 10 minute YouTube video and expects a deep and insightful academic analysis. A few snippets of info on something they were previously ignorant of is all most people expect. Felton does a good job of that.
Other history authors I like seem to attract similar criticism. It strikes me that historians are a fractious and jealous lot. Any popular history us thick plebs read or watch is something to sneer at. It's like you've no right to express an interest in an area of history unless you're going to study it to at least PhD level!
Nationalist organisation in Country A had links with nationalist organisation in Country B shouldn’t be a shock to anyone really.
you should probably look into it more deeply. It wasn't merely "exchanged some letters and bumped into each other in the 1930s", it was "SNP leaders expressed fascist sympathies after the war started".
The idea expressed in some quarters that those senior SNP leaders were merely nationalist anti-Bolsheviks doesn't stack up: at the time they still were praising fascism, Hitler had allied with Stalin to dismember the independent nation of Poland.
I'm opposed to the SNP but I don't think it is the same party it was 70 years ago. But whataboutery and apologism for its historic fascist sympathies is unacceptable and a waste of time.