[Closed] The second coming

I was going to put altar boys on the list near the bottom...some of them seem to be the least enthusiastic, and look really grumpy while they're following the priest about.

McHamish - Member
As far as I undersstadn it, Catholics don't actually believe that it's the actual flesh and blood of jebus, they believe it 'represents' his flesh and blood.

Heresy!!!! Holy moly, are you some sort of protestant?

[url= http://www.gotquestions.org/transubstantiation.html ]Transubstantiation[/url]

McHamish - Member
I was going to put altar boys on the list near the bottom

Very topical.

Oh. I stand corrected.

Admitedly, I don't really pay any attention when I have to go to Church or when my Wife's parents talk to me about religion.

Thanks for the link.

Machamish, I enjoyed the altar boy thing, we had a good laugh taking the piss out of the priest, fantasizing about the girls in the front row, giggling out loud after interminable silences...

Richc, did you read the wikipedia link and not the frothing atheist link that woppit put up? Althought they both lead to the same conclusion, the wiki link seemed more rigorous. Anyway as I said I am happy to concede that a man called jesus existed an claimed to be the son of god. He was either stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed.

edit richc also your link offers nothing new, all the records come from writings after his death..

Very topical.

Ha...didn't notice that.

Perhaps 'Americans' should also be added to the list, some of those would probably be placed above God in terms of enthusiasm for believing in god.

It should be more difficult than it is to sing 'hallelujah' in a manner that sounds like your dog's just died.

I think the priest might be 2nd on the list

Cougar has brought up a proper dichotomy. I reckon most theists I know would be highly sceptical of anyone claiming to be the son of god. Also any miracles performed would be met with "well it must be a trick"

I think you'll find that there is masses of evidence to verify that Jesus did exist

I'd be interested to see this.

I don't think going to Church would help Cougar since he's already sceptical.

I'm not sure as I've ever liked the word 'sceptical'. There can be a negative undertone to it which some people see as a closed mind. 'Critical thinking' is perhaps more accurate. I'm not predisposed to dismissing ideas out of hand, I simply like to verify what I'm being told.

When I was younger, I had a subscription to The Unexplained magazine (anyone else remember that?). I hoovered it up, the idea that there was all this [i]stuff[/i] out there that we didn't really understand was absolutely fascinating to me.

Years later, older and with an Internet connection, I revisited all this stuff. Ghosts, yetis, SHC, Kirlian photography, crop circles, ball lightning, levitation, phsycics, telekinesis, the works. I learned how it all worked (or didn't), and what was actually 'unexplained' and what actually bobbins.

I learned that it's important not to automatically believe everything you hear or read. By nature of emails telling me that Bill Gates was going to send me to Disneyland, there was an undetectable virus going around that would my computer become self-aware and create robot assassins, and if I flash my headlights at someone I'm going to wake up without my kidneys, I learned about things like False Authority Syndrome and became very well versed (and fascinated) with urban myths. Quick show of hands - does a duck's quack echo?

When you stop automatically absorbing all this, heh, quackery and start using your brain to process what you're being told, it's startling just how much shit we're being peddled on a daily basis. When you're rubbing pro-vitamin B5 into your scalp, has what's beneath your scalp ever wondered what it does for your hair? Mine has(*).

But when something new crops up, I think, "oh, really?" and look into it. If it turns out to be true then I've learned something new, if it turns out to be false or unproven or unlikely then at least I can perhaps help others to think critically about it. Most people tend to be interested when misconceptions are explained (religion being the obvious exception here).

Does that make me a sceptic? Seems a strange label for what, surely, should be what everyone is doing.

(* - the answer, incidentally, is nothing at all. Pro-vitamins get turned into vitamins in the gut, the only thing benefiting when you rub it on your head is gloop-sellers' wallets. Sounds good and sciencey though, right?)

Anyway as I said I am happy to concede that a man called jesus existed an claimed to be the son of god. He was either stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed.

Fair enough, I am not sure on how you decided on him being stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed though, as the documentary evidence merely confirms his existence and not much more.

With your amazing insight you should work for the NHS as you could save the country a fortune with your medical diagnosis's without even having to speak to, or even see the patient.....

You seem to be massively sceptical of everything, bar your own self perceived awesomeness.....

I suspect the Vatican would be sceptical of anyone claiming to be Jesus - they wouldn't want the Pope to be second in charge of all Catholics...how will they make their money?

Cougar, give it a rest its getting tedious at best.

Some would say egotistical. 😉

Whether Jesus was a real person or not - you have to hand it to the Christians - they've got a frickin [b]fantastic[/b] marketing department!!!!

"Most people tend to be interested when misconceptions are explained"

Yep... nail on the head there for me over the last 18months... and that's why I ask you to give it a chance.

missed out the second part of the quote there ro5ey

just saying like

Steve cougar seemed to ask a relevant question (without bashing religion - tho others may have) how would christians decide if someone was the son of god? Surely it's come up at the AGM at the vatican/CoE HQ/wherever

You seem to be massively sceptical of everything, bar your own self perceived awesomeness.....

If I don't love me, who else will?

With your amazing insight you should work for the NHS as you could save the country a fortune with your medical diagnosis's without even having to speak to, or even see the patient.....

The irony of this from someone who appears to believe in the existence of a supreme being

without even having to speak to, or even see

Yes I did, because it is my misconceptions of the church and god that have been explained to me... or that I've worked out myself by attendance and interest in the subject.

Cougar, give it a rest its getting tedious at best.

I'm sorry, give what a rest?

Asking a serious question regarding religious beliefs because I'm genuinely interested in any answers is tedious? Or are you referring to something else?

Far as I can see, it seems plenty of people are having an interesting discussion here. Why not have a go at answering the question if you're bored?

cougar keep it up, I enjoyed your last essay.
If you don't like it, exit the thread.

Cougar, it's all a bit pointless arguing with the converted about God trying to use science and verifiable facts, like trying to explain quadratic equations to a well trained labradoodle. They can process simple commands and obey them, but just don't have the vocabulary to understand why. God is not a concept that Science can prove or disprove.

Anyways, I can't believe we have got to page 3 of this thread with no mention of Father Ted.

Down With This Sort of Thing !

Careful now.

Point is, I wasn't arguing. I said that in my very first post. I was asking for clarification on something I didn't understand (and kinda thought that theists revelled in that sort of thing).

God is not a concept that Science can prove or disprove.

Incorrect, science could prove god, if there were a god. If there is a god science will prove it sooner or later. And the moment science does that, it will be proven that he is ungodlike after all as there will be a rational explaination for his existence. Pooof!

The irony of this from someone who appears to believe in the existence of a supreme being

Oh the irony

Incorrect, science could prove god, if there were a god. If there is a god science will prove it sooner or later

I am guessing you aren't a scientist.

Popular, charismatic, persuasive, ethical man comes to prominence, wants to take from the rich and give to the poor? Think he'd last five minutes in this capitalist, consumerist world..?
The last proponent of that philosophy on a grand scale had his lights put out and his hands cut off in Bolivia in 1968, by the very same people who'd be at the forefront of the silencing of any Second Coming...

Toys, so with that logic, the fact that Science can't prove God exists must mean that God doesn't exist ? As much as that theory appeals, I suggest you watch yourself on pedestrian crossings mate !

I think I missed that stuff about Jesus taking from the rich to give to the poor, I thought that was Robin Hood ? Am I getting my mythical persons confused ?

I think it was Robin Hood too, but JC got there first. I'm no theologist, but rich men, heaven, camels, eyes of needles and all that. Did you fall asleep in RE at school too?

We didn't have RE in the promised land of New Zealand. My parents were Atheists and let me go to church/synagogue/worship hall with whoever was my wee friend at the time as they thought it would be educational. Until my wee friend was Catholic, and my dad introduced me to the idea that although we are Atheists, we are Protestant Atheists. (he was from the Scottish Islands VERY religious family)

For the record, the Baptist Church was my favorite. They had a big ole organ and let me be in the Christmas play.

we are Protestant Atheists

What the jeff is that?

It's a reminder that us fair-minded atheists still love a bit of bigotry. Me, I can't stand those bloody Buddhists.

Perhaps God is beyond scientific explanation?
After all science is limited by the scientist undertaking the exploration.
I would say that as individuals we can all find God; not by looking in a church or a book but by self enquiry; or even something as simple as riding your bike and opening your eyes; sittng still, and just being well still!!
The journey is an internal one not external.
Just a thought.

The journey is an internal one not external.

So what you're saying is, god is a construct of our own minds? I could get behind that.

That instant hit sounds like one those bloody Buddhists!

Nice thought though, but isn't that just human introspection and nowt to do with a supreme being..?

instant hit's ... instant hit

Cougar.... You will not find God sitting on a cloud, God is not a Sky Wizard.... God is within you... But you have to go looking.

You won't know if you can swim, if you dont jump in.

Conversely Coug, if you don't jump in, you won't risk drowning...

Being a Protestant Atheist (my dad, not me) is a Scottish thing I think. It's about not really beleiving in God as such, but reserving the right to be bigoted against Catholics. If you know any Rangers fans I am sure they will help explain it.

Cougar not saying God is a construct of our own minds but you have to get past all the crap in your mind before you can see whats really there. (does that make sense??)
I have a massive problem with organised religion and i dont put myself in a catagory of christian, buddhist etc but have just been interested in "something else that might be God" which has just become a natural enquiry which has evolved over time.
Just dont think books and science provide the answers.

Go for it... I dare you

I dare you?

Do your parents know you are on their computer using the internet?

God is not a concept that Science can prove or disprove.

Science cannot prove or disprove anything that is not real. It can merely point to the probability of such being real.

hels - Member

Being a Protestant Atheist (my dad, not me) is a Scottish thing I think. It's about not really beleiving in God as such, but reserving the right to be bigoted against Catholics. If you know any Rangers fans I am sure they will help explain it.

Sounds about right. A weird little sectarian side to the Scots

Organised religion is just heavy-handed totalitarian politics, god should never be spelt with a capital "g" and humanism can provide anything that any god can. Science will never provide all the answers, but all answers are there to be scientifically found. We, and everything, are, after all, just chemicals and chemical reactions, in glorious technicolour.

Science cannot prove or disprove anything that is not real. It can merely point to the probability of such being real.

In which case it's arguable that the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator', God as an example ... or you can keep on believing we all came about through a loads of convenient genetic mutations ...

You won't know if you can swim, if you dont jump in.

That's up there with "suck on this wire and tell me if it's live, will you?"

not really beleiving in God as such, but reserving the right to be bigoted against Catholics.

Heh, gotcha.

Cougar not saying God is a construct of our own minds but you have to get past all the crap in your mind before you can see whats really there. ... have just been interested in "something else that might be God"

When I was younger and slowly coming to the realisation that I'd been systematically lied to by adults for most of my life, I considered myself agnostic for a while(*). One of the theories I came up with at the time was that this 'god' concept some people have is actually something inside of us and not supernatural at all. So when we pray, we're actually feeding that something, boosting our own confidence (albeit by trickery) in the same way that a friend going "hey, you're great, everything's fine" would. You pray to god, you believe in it, so you immediately feel better about things because you now trust that 'god will help'. You feel better, ergo prayer works, and the whole thing becomes self-sustaining.

In hindsight, I didn't know it at the time but I think where I was going with that ultimately is that god is an abstraction of the placebo effect.

(* - I eventually stopped when I realised that now [i]I [/i]was lying to me.)

A weird little sectarian side to the Scots

My grandad, a protestant shale miner from Winchboroug and a Hearts fan, would be turning in his grave now that I'm married to a Catholic Chinese girl.

It would be even worse if she supported Hibs.

In which case it's arguable that the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator',

It's arguable that the moon is made out of custard.

(though it'd make landing on it a trifle difficult)

(sorry)

You pray to god, you believe in it, so you immediately feel better about things because you now trust that 'god will help'. You feel better, ergo prayer works, and the whole thing becomes self-sustaining.

Praying to God must be more than just making you "feel better", otherwise anyone doing it regularly would soon give up because nothing actually changed through doing it ... Christians pray to God because they believe it has the power to change things, and considering they continue doing it there must be something tangible that results, other than just "feeling better" about things for a while ...

Cougar not saying God is a construct of our own minds but you have to get past all the crap in your mind before you can see what's really there.

It's arguable that the moon is made out of custard.

Only if scientific investigation suggests it's probable.

I don't remember any of the Apollo moon landings mentioning anything about finding milk/cream/egg yolk, and possibly sugar or vanilla.

"I dare you?

Do your parents know you are on their computer using the internet? "

Yep and they are asking what forfeit Cougar is going to do for bottling it

😀

considering they continue doing it there must be something tangible that results

remind where I can see the tangible results? In the starving faces of African babies, or on the coffins of dead relatives, maybe?

Praying to God must be more than just making you "feel better", otherwise anyone doing it regularly would soon give up because nothing actually changed through doing it ... Christians pray to God because they believe it has the power to change things, and considering they continue doing it there must be something tangible that results, other than just "feeling better" about things for a while ...

I sometimes wonder if the various Saints have just been conveniently organised for the purposes of praying. Saint Anthony for example is the saint of lost causes, so if you can't find your keys, he's your man. St Francis is the saint of animals, so if your pet is ill, a few words in his shell-like and he'll sort the wee fella out.

Although each saint has a long list of things that they're a dab had at, so maybe they cover all eventualities.

Hmmm prayer, thats something different again, from my experience.
My understanding is that thought (prayer??) transcends time and space. Not sure if i can explain that in words, but its something i have "experienced" and accept.
I would never presume that i could explain God, but as zimbo pointed out "you won't know if you can swim if you dont jump in"

Yep and they are asking what forfeit Cougar is going to do for bottling it

Yeah Cougar, you're big wuss for not throwing yourself unthinkingly into spurious metaphysical nonsense!

just like a god for each thing, it's a load of made up waffle.

As with most things, I would want some actual factual evidence of a second coming, or in fact the first coming.

The stock arguement is "prove to me god doesn't exist".

quote]but as zimbo pointed out "you won't know if you can swim if you dont jump in[

That wasn't me! I warned him of drowning in the perilous waters of blind faith!

I think, worldwide, the level of ignorance and lack of education wouldn't preclude the possibility that a second coming could be believed by many.

Even here in the UK, a supposedly educated and enlightened country, we can't even celebrate a new millennium on the correct year (the new millennium started 1st Jan 2001...not 1st Jan 2000...nothing do with with using alternative calenders as some erroneously believe, just simple numeracy).

Or check these forum pages where people doubt the necessity of leaving some bearing slack in loose ball QR hubs so that the QR will take up the remaining slack. Something that can be tested by any loose ball QR hub owner in seconds, yet still they argue.

You see, we can prove that regardless of concrete evidence against any belief, there are some who steadfastly oppose any information that contradicts what they WANT to believe. That part of human nature hasn't ever changed for a great many.

Yeah Cougar, you're big wuss for not throwing yourself unthinkingly into spurious metaphysical nonsense!

I never asked for unthinkingly, quite the opposite in fact. And thanks for making my point if indeed it's "spurious metaphysical nonsense".... Cougar has nothing to fear, has he?

In which case it's arguable that the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator', God as an example ... or you can keep on believing we all came about through a loads of convenient genetic mutations ...

Arguable? Not really. There is not one iota of peer reviewed court admissible evidence to support any creator theory. However, genetic mutations and evolution have been proven countless times.

Praying to God must be more than just making you "feel better", otherwise anyone doing it regularly would soon give up because nothing actually changed through doing it...

I think you may have only read half of my post and skipped the part where I explained that.

Only if scientific investigation suggests it's probable.

Now we're getting somewhere. Does scientific investigation suggest that "the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator'," as per your original statement? If it doesn't then by your argument here we can rule it out; if it does then you're in line for a Nobel prize cos no-one else has managed it in two thousand years.

they are asking what forfeit Cougar is going to do for bottling it

I'm not "bottling it," I just don't want to. You're suggesting that the only reason I'm not taking you up on it is fear; let me assure you, fear is fairly low on my list of reasons, I've had scarier bowel movements.

If I 'dared' you to go and sit in a damp cave for two hours every week for six months eating mud, with the only incentive being 'you never know what might happen', would you do it? If not, would you describe yourself as bottling a dare? Don't be silly.

I think I will end my contibution to this thread with a link to one of my favourite websites.

It's the Creationists Museum in Kentucky.

http://creationmuseum.org/

They have great exhibitions explaining how fossils were all planted by God, and displays showing how dinosaurs mixed with the cavemen (they must have, sillies, the world was created in 400BC). If you are lucky, you will catch one of the talks from Dr (have to wonder, of what ?) Morton entitled "Three Ways to Make an Apeman" which explains the three main ways anthropologists faked the evidence for evolution.

It's a real place kiddies, just like Dollywood. Terrifying...

Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age.

Dude dude.... Sorry, Im pulling your chain little... just trying to be lighthearted ..."I dare you" was, I thought, clearly the voice of a school boy (well done Tucker, to the top of the class you go) and "bottling it" was in the same vein.

There are quite a few aesthesis (some of them rather nasty)on here as well as some uncompromising religious people.... I hope I've come across, or would like to, much like MrBarnsleymatch... Some one of faith whose life is better for it and is not worried about saying that.

Just to say Cougar I have enjoyed your posts on this thread.

I would love to partake but the requirement to "make a living" rules that out.

That is all.

I'm fascinated by why Cougar seeks to start a discussion on religion when it is very clear he has made up his mind and will not be convinced otherwise.

But as has been pointed out, religion does seem to obsess the Cougar.

Why does it obsess you Cougar? Because you are among the enlightened and you are angry why people can subscribe to incorrect beliefs? But what business is that of yours to begin with?

Are you our true liberator?

Is this the first coming of the Cougar?

Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age

Why don't you just shorten that to: 'anyone who doesn't believe what I believe is an idiot' 🙄

But what business is that of yours to begin with?

I think it is the concern of all tax payers in the UK, dont you. It should also be the concern of every other paid up member of the human race to strive to debunk such harmful myths and vested interests.
The myths that to this day restrict social and medical advances across the globe as well as the restriction of scientific reasoning and our childrens education.

I did have some time after all!

Oh, great! Another day, another tedious tail-chasing STW will eat itself thread on religion that goes around and around and around like all the others before it.

"Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age. "

Yep thats it... well done, you win.

Why don't you just shorten that to: 'anyone who doesn't believe what I believe is an idiot'

I'll shorten it to 'anyone who believes in religion is an idiot'. 8)

Anyway i know god is real cause im a Chelsea supporter, and i did a lot of praying last night.

I'm fascinated by why Cougar seeks to start a discussion on religion

Cougar didn't, Cougar asked a reasonable question about whether we'd believe it if a "second coming" happened. That's a philosphical/societal question that can be asked without adherence to any belief system.

Hey CFH

I completely agree with you and we've even got the cherry on the cake

Your post stating tail chasing blah blah.... well done.

But what business is that of yours to begin with?
I think it is the concern of all tax payers in the UK, dont you.

I would argue conversely that without Christianity, and the civic culture it supported in this country for many hundreds of years, there would not have been a UK in the first place, let alone economic prosperity, religious and political liberty, and the opportunity (not always realised) to discuss whether God exists in the first place.

Browsing this thread only brings home to me that the greatest threat to liberty and tolerance as we understand it (and it is understood in Christian terms) is the closed minded, fashionable and currently unverifiable Atheism espoused by so many of the contributors who have happened to read a book by Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins, and found that a lack of divine justice fits very well with their middle-aged angst.

Dobbo... watch out fella... MrBmatch will be along shortly to have a word in your shell like.

Cougar asked a reasonable question about whether we'd believe it if a "second coming" happened. That's a philosphical/societal question that can be asked without adherence to any belief system.

I think it is primarily a religious question, as it presupposes the reality of a Second Coming, which Cougar has strenuously argued in other threads is an Impossiblity.

It is a meaningless question unless the inquirer is willing to accept the possibility of a Second Coming. Otherwise it is the work of an Agitator with some vapours to let off.

Anyway i know [s]God[/s] Satan is real cause im a Chelsea supporter, and I [s]Did a lot of praying[/s] sacrificed a virgin last night

Oh, great! Another day, another tedious tail-chasing STW will eat itself thread on religion that goes around and around and around like all the others before it.

ooh - looks like badnwez is the one with the big chip on his shoulder! Anti-atheist anger always makes me laugh, but "unverifiable atheism", that's comedy gold.