The scrum in rugby union

I think what needs looking at is how a team can be beaten in the scrum and it not always be a pen, teams should be able to be shoved back and the loss of ground is the advantage

Maybe a tap and go 10 m up field?

If you don't like scrums... watch rugby league instead.

"If you don’t like scrums… watch rugby league instead."

I do just sour for me grapes tonight...at the moment..bugger..so close.

Solid scrum  in the first half!

I do love a good game of rugby.

But just think it rules need a tweak..not sure how.

I was under the impression the scrum was for biting opponents ears 😕 Is there some other point to it ?

Matt Williams (a somewhat annoying character) has been claiming out that technical infringements (those about scrummaging technique as opposed to foul pay or offside) in scrums used to yield free kicks until the 90s, and that he believes rugby union should go back to that again so teams would either have to kick into play or run after those infringements. He also says that if we want teams to play like France and NZ more we need to stop giving penalties to the heftier teams at scrum time.

We just got over powered in the second half and SA took advantage. Just need better replacements akin to Marler and Coles. 

I think what needs looking at is how a team can be beaten in the scrum and it not always be a pen, teams should be able to be shoved back and the loss of ground is the advantage.

They can. It requires the front row (and particularly the 2 props) to be willing to get pushed backwards and to move backwards as a result.   Too often the props mantra is "up,  down, sideways, but NEVER backwards".

The SA scrum was also able to dominate because it was such a slow game. I've heard it said you're never going to compete with the SA pack unless you can pass the ball around to make them run and punish them for their size. The conditions tonight didn't lend themselves to that, and neither does the kicking game really.

Scrums are a thing of beauty - if your team is good at them.

Refereeing of them however....often random.

I would like to see the clock stopped for a scrum and the clock only restart when the ball comes out into open play.  If it results in a pen, then restart the clock when the penalty is kicked. That way all the time wasting (and let's be honest, some refs bottling the decision when it pivotal and resetting instead) has no impact.

I recall watching 13 minutes of reset after reset after penalty after reset after penalty, before a ref finally gave a penalty try.  13 bleedin'  minutes.  13. In the Premiership.   There was only ever 1 dominant pack all that time. And it did happen to have Dan Cole in it (or was it Castro ?). The other weaker pack (Glawster, btw) just collapsed or the front row popped up every single  time the weaker pack were heading backwards over their try line.

 There was only ever 1 dominant pack all that time. And it did happen to have Dan Cole in it (or was it Castro ?).

Probably Marcus Ayerza as well then, awesome set of props!

The scrum in rugby union……

Do the rules need to be changed?

There are rules?

😂

As someone who used to play the game a lot as a kid, but hasn't played in 25yrs, the concept of "winning a penalty" is kinda lost on me... But that's exactly the way South Africa play their game with their scrummaging these days. OK, so they're only playing to the law, so can't criticise them for doing that. The problem for me is that a penalty should only be awarded for an obvious infringement or foul play. Simply being inferior in the scrum, as sadly Genge & Sinckler have proven to be time and again of late, shouldn't result in a penalty IMO... Time was that they'd scrum again, and if it was a repeat situation where the weaker front row couldn't hold the opposition team, the referee would give a free kick to the dominant team in the end.

Yes I'm a bit full of sour grapes right now... Not that I expected England to do half as well as they did even to be fair. But the consequences of a half way line free kick being awarded are significantly different to that of a half way line penalty with possibly the best goal kicker in the world right now on the team being awarded the penalty...

In my opinion the best thing to do with scrums is to see them as an offensive attacking position. Allow feeding as it happens every scrum. Maybe remove wing forwards to create space on the field, so just 13 players.....

(Tongue in cheek obviously, but I do think think the best spectator sport is a hybrid of both....I played both, and as a flanker in union)

While we’re on the subject of laws…

Line outs - straight, no stepping off the straight line once it’s set, free kick if you do.  I’m fed up of the choreographed dance routines immediately before the ball comes in.

Tackles - if we’re serious about flowing attacking rugby and fewer injuries, tackles waist down - ie shorts not shirts.   Off loads would become the order of the day and the tedious 35 phases going nowhere would cease.

Shirt (chest) level tackles have to be part of the game. Wrap up the ball in the tackle to slow down good offloaded. Part of the game. Even when I played (years ago!!), two men in the hit, one low, the other going for the ball and then jacking if possible.

Get your point regarding line out though. SA constantly closed the gap. England had to do something to counter the gap being closed. 

Tackles – if we’re serious about flowing attacking rugby and fewer injuries, tackles waist down – ie shorts not shirts. 

Lower tackles have their own injury risks particularly tackles around and below the knees

I do just sour for me grapes tonight…at the moment..bugger..so close.

Why? What happened?

sadly Genge & Sinckler have proven to be time and again of late

Sinckler was/is one of the worlds best, but he’s getting on now - although he’s still winning against other teams - and you need to remember the SA props are the biggest, strongest and best in the world.   The Bomb Squad has taken apart better front rows than England.  <br /><br />

Genge is a lighter more mobile prop.  He’s strong, but doesn’t have the bulk of Marler for example to carry that weight.  I wonder wether Will Stuart should have played.  <br /><br />

I don’t think either of them were helped by the media announcement them as “Englands Bomb Squad”.  That must have been a red rag to a South African bull.  Baby Rhino vs full blooded male Rhino on steroids if you want an analogy.

the concept of “winning a penalty” is kinda lost on me

I was saying this the other day.

Playing for penalties feels alot like playing the rules not the sport.

As just an occasional watcher of Rugby, can I also say that the rules make so little sense, that if there's a part in the game when they all get into a huddle and try to push each other around, there may as well be a bit in the game where they get points for creative speed flower arranging. I don't want the rules explained to me, part of the enjoyment for me is guessing correctly when a man is going to deliberately kick it off the pitch, or why that tackle seems just fine, but those 3 guys rolling around on the floor while the ball just sits there are some-how breaking the rules.

I don't know any other sport like it frankly.

As just an occasional watcher of Rugby...

...I don’t know any other sport like it frankly.

Same here - occasional watcher.

It certainly a sport that benefits from television and being able to see close up what's going on.

I've been to a few Leicester Tigers games and I'll be honest if the play isn't close to your seat I've got no sodding idea what's going on. Just looks like a more muscular game of pile-on! 🙂

i stopped watching england 'play' for the same poor sportsmanship accusations now being levelled at SA.

the concept of “winning a penalty” is kinda lost on me

As I understand it (which is doubtless not well), a penalty can be 'won' by dominating the situation (e.g. ruck) so that you would win the ball, thereby forcing your opponent to either relinquish it or hold onto it illegally and hope the ref doesn't see.

I'm less clear on how it happens at the scrum though.

One thing that really irritates me about England is how they scream in jubilation and pump the air as if they've scored, when they are simply awarded a penalty even if it's just a mistake from the other side.

I think there's definitely an issue with the professional era and rugby.

Referees are just outgunned now with entire teams of coaches constantly pushing to see just how far they can stretch the rules.  I'm not sure what the solution is, tbh.

If you tried to simplify the rules you'd end up with Rugby League.

Even American Football, which is a simpler game in many ways, has something like 7 officials to monitor the various aspects.  Maybe that's the way it needs to go in rugby with a ref specifically for the breakdown, the tackle, the scrum, offside, obstruction, etc.

It definitely seems like there's too much going on for one person to monitor and continuously make judgments on.  Every game it seems a least as much time is spent analysing referee decisions as is spent analysing the teams' performance.

Probably Marcus Ayerza

Isn't he the big pudding that tried to take out Henson off the ball, he regretted that!

I’m less clear on how it happens at the scrum though.

There are various rules.  On your own ball you don’t want to be pushed backward and give it to the other team, on thier ball you want to push them back so you could get their ball.  Then we are into the darker arts which the rules are designed to mitigate - props are supposed to only push straight to avoid the opposite scrum having issues, they are required to support thier weight E.g. no knees on the ground to a) avoid a collapse of the scrum and injury and b) to stop them deliberately putting less force on thier side and letting the scrum wheel - this is done to put the ball closer to your defence….. and so on, right up to munching on garlic bulbs pre match!

One thing that really irritates me about England is how they scream in jubilation and pump the air as if they’ve scored

This is not the done thing in Rugby, it pisses most people off tbh and they should stop it.

I watched the SA forwards after they won the crucial penalty to put them into the RWC finals. They seemed to jump up and high 5 each other with a smile before getting on with things - unless there was more I didn't see on camera.

Re scrums, I know some of the rules for this but what's not clear is if one side could legitimately be said to have 'won' a penalty, or the other side has made a mistake leading to a penalty being awarded. Clearly there scope for it to be both but it's not clear. There are times when a prop clearly slips and it goes down - is this just one of those things (which would lead to a re-set); is it the opposition overpowering them (thereby constituting a win for the opposition); or is it done on purpose when you know you're going backwards and want another go (which would warrant a penalty against)?

That’s for Ref to judge Molgrips 🙂

teams should be able to be shoved back and the loss of ground is the advantage

That's how it used to be, and how we ref it at grass roots level. It's usually impossible to tell who's fault a scrum collapse is, and normally 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Without the pro refs using overhead cameras, cams inside the tunnel and being able to read the minds of the props, it's 99% guesswork who deserves a penalty anyway.
And thinking the laws are a bit screwy doesn't mean you don't like scrums and should watch another sport - what an utterly childish comment.
Just to say, scrums are actually a big part of what makes rugby union great and a sport for all shapes and sizes.

i personally think that our change of front row cost us the game last night.  we bossed them all over in the 1st half.

also 2 of the scrum penalties came after the ball was out of the scrum.