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I don't particularly think she did, only that it seemed to help Moth.
OK, so at what point do you go from saying, 'Well, I feel like this helped me' to saying, 'This caused my incurable terminal illness that shouldn't go into remission to go into remission'?
From The Observer's follow up:
In fact, the couple have repeatedly suggested, both in Winn’s books and in interviews, that walking helped reverse the symptoms of Moth’s CBD and held it at bay.
In her most recent book, Landlines, Winn writes: “After 200 miles of walking over endless headlands, carrying everything we needed to survive on our backs, Moth’s health began to improve in ways that should have been impossible. His gait became almost normal, his thoughts cleared, his short-term memory sharpened and movements that had been almost impossible before became easy.”
Speaking on the BBC in 2022, almost a decade after he says he was first diagnosed, Walker said: “I’m still going strong, thanks to walking the coast path.”
Like I said, now is NOT the time to be ****ing around with medical disinformation. If others feel differently or feel this is somehow a minor case of medical disinformation then I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise.
OK, so at what point do you go from saying, 'Well, I feel like this helped me' to saying, 'This caused my incurable terminal illness that shouldn't go into remission to go into remission'?
You tell me, you're the one deciding what they actually meant when they said X.
You tell me,
Naw, think I'll let them just tell us in their own words.
“After 200 miles of walking over endless headlands, carrying everything we needed to survive on our backs, Moth’s health began to improve in ways that should have been impossible. His gait became almost normal, his thoughts cleared, his short-term memory sharpened and movements that had been almost impossible before became easy.”
“I’m still going strong, thanks to walking the coast path.”
I get that folk on here want to believe it's all somewhat true. And bits of it probably are. Given that many of us are outdoorsy types we want to believe that nature has miraculous healing powers. And perhaps we want to believe that the reason we are comparatively healthy is not because we got lucky but because we choose to spend our time in nature doing healthy stuff.
However, I choose to believe the doctors who say going on a walk like this probably wasn't a great idea and wouldn't cause symptoms to go into remission over a couple of grifters who say the opposite.
You don't **** about with the truth these days. Particularly when it comes to medical stuff.
Another example suggesting Moth's illness becomes serious when convenient:
But in October 2021, Bill says, Moth surprised him with an announcement. “He put his head in his hands and he said: ‘We went to the hospital this week and I’ve been told not to plan beyond Christmas.’” Bill was horrified. “I just went: ‘Oh my God!’ and gave him a big hug.”
Bill’s friend Richard, who asked us not to use his surname, was present for the conversation. “It was extraordinarily emotional,” he recalls. “Bill was close to tears. Moth also told him he thought he would already be dead if he hadn’t been living on Haye farm.”
Richard remembers that Bill had become close to Raynor and Moth, messaging them most days. Richard says he was concerned for his friend, however, because the farm was losing money. Cider was not being produced and the orchards were not being attended to.
“But he didn’t care,” says Richard. “He felt kind of responsible for them, and for Moth’s wellbeing.”
Naw, think I'll let them just tell us in their own words.
Great! So "we felt walking really helped Moth" rather than "walking will cure CBD". Thanks for clarifying.
Great! So "we felt walking really helped Moth" rather than "walking will cure CBD". Thanks for clarifying.
If that's your takeaway you are clutching at straws.
Why you are gripping so tightly, I don't know.
And by the way, if you want a more solid example of what walking can do, in Landlines a scan shows that a long walk has caused Moth's brain lesions to disappear.
So there we go. Is that 'help' or is that a cure?
Sorry, I probably put a spoiler there.
That Bill Cole article above. The swear filter’s going to work overtime with this, but what a couple of ****s
If that's your takeaway you are clutching at straws.
Why you are gripping so tightly, I don't know.
Because you're making inferences about what she wrote that are distinct from what she said. I have no skin in this game but there's generally a healthy cynicism about the media in here, so I have no idea why all of a sudden people are taking the article as gospel. I reckon the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
If that's your takeaway you are clutching at straws.
Why you are gripping so tightly, I don't know.
Because you're making inferences from what she said that are distinct from what she wrote. It's a few years since I read it, but my takaway was "walking eased his symptoms", not "walking will cure your incurable disease".
Done with it - sarcasm away, I've nothing further to say on it. The inability to have a civil discussion on here any more is infuriating.
Done with it - sarcasm away, I've nothing further to say on it. The inability to have a civil discussion on here any more is infuriating.
We are having a civil discussion.
The problem is it's becoming more and more clear that they misrepresented Moth's illness to make a more compelling story. You refuse to accept that for some reason.
The benefits of walking may have been hinted at in the first book but by Landlines walking was causing lesions to disappear and that is going way beyond 'helping a bit'.
'Alternative' health advice is a big problem at the moment. If I had to guess I would say that is why the Observer took an interest and started digging.
**** me that more recent Observer article sets alarm bell ringing - about Bill and the Observer rather than the couple.
mainly at a Dutch agricultural firm, Rabo Bank.
It's a cooperative bank. Period. A bank, you know, city sharks like Bill amasing a personal fortune doing deals favourable to themselves and the bank. Forget cudly.
So rich Rabo Bank man Bill buys a cider farm and rents out part of it to the couple at a rent they can ill afford so they leave. No problem. Bill making it one makes Bill an arse. I've rented stuff out - people who pay the rent and leave without trashing the place and without arrears are good people. The ones who won't pay, trash the place and won't leave are the problem ones. Bill should think himself lucky.
There's not much more than nasty inuendo in Bill's quotes and the Observer used it to dish dirt. To hell with the Observer, nasty jounalism.
So you're cool with walking causing brain lesions to disappear as Winn describes in Landlines?
Anyway, we seem to somehow be getting directed to completely separate internets as you appear to be reading one thing while I'm reading something completely different so there probably isn't much to discuss.
I've said I didn't read the books. I'm just gawping at the media spectacle knowing that really I shouldn't bother with the gutter press of which this spat makes the Observer a part.
I'm cool with people writing motivational bollocks with less than perfect medical content as long as it's not in the Lancet, Nature, signed off by a medical professional... .
Given the medical evidence presented by the couple about the diagnosis I'm more than cool with them leveraging it to increase sales of their motivational bollocks book - from their point of view I see good faith on that aspect of the story. The more I see of this mess the more I'm inclined to say good luck to them - I might read the book, is it free on line anywhere?
As I walked the GR70 last week I read Stevenson's account of each day as I walked it. I've no doubt some of it was embelished and it's very much a rich Englishman's view of 19thC rural France and its history - but for all that it was an enjoyable, informative, entertaining and motivational read. Some regard it as a literary classic, my mother read it in school in the early 1940s.
I'm cool with people writing motivational bollocks with less than perfect medical content as long as it's not in the Lancet, Nature, signed off by a medical professional... .
Yeah, Belle Gibson was an inspiration...
Raynor is obviously not on the same level as Gibson, but fundamentally they have done the same thing. Use an illness they don't have as a way to make money and spread some misinformation that can cause real harm.
There are, of course, degrees to these things but just because someone causes a smaller amount of harm I don't think that's a reason to let them carry on doing it.
Failing to see harm here, you're comparing apples and Pears, Brucewee. The Gibson case isn't comparable. The couple aren't dissing mainstream medical tretment options and there are no spurious dangerous alternative treatments presented by the couple - just walking, which seemed like a good idea to them and seems like a good idea to me given the circumstances. Not their fault if the CBD diagnosis turns out to be wrong or he has somehow outlived expectations.
Failing to see harm here, you're comparing apples and Pears, Brucewee.
They are saying that walking made brain lesions go away.
Now people with neurodegenerative diseases think that walking 600 miles is going to cure them when it will, in fact, most likely make them worse.
And even for people who have neurodegenerative diseases that don't think that, people in their circle might and start 'suggesting' that they go for a 600 mile walk despite the fact that this is completely out of the realms of possibility for many of these people. Reluctance to do so results in disapproval from people in their circle as they are not doing everything to help themselves.
And even without all that, any kind of medical misinformation is bad. It's everywhere and it's getting worse. Why anyone would support even seemingly benign medical misinformation is beyond me.
I might have some sympathy if this was simply a case of misdiagnosis. However, much of the story around the diagnosis doesn't ring true. Have you talked to people who have severe symptoms and still struggle to get diagnosed, with the process often taking years? How does a guy with a stiff shoulder go from being oblivious to getting diagnosed in a single week?
So we have a suspicious diagnosis, a writer with a history of embezzlement, and a series of best-selling uplifting books where one of the protagonists makes seemingly miraculous recoveries.
If you are cool with it then that's on you. Just don't complain next time someone says Covid wasn't real.
Just don't complain next time someone says Covid wasn't real.
You're beyond the Nth degree now.
*shrugs*
*shrugs*
So you don't see a link between medical misinformation and miraculous recoveries being presented in an inspiring 'true' story and people's general willingness to accept medical misinformation when it comes to other things?
Of course there are levels to this, but at the end of the day it's still fundamentally the same thing. Grifting using other people's suffering to do it.
Like you said, *shrugs*
I see it and in this case don't consider it a big deal. Walking isn't harmful.
Grifting using other people's suffering to do it.
The grifting I see is the Observer piling a load of suffereing on this couple to sell their shitty newspaper.
Double post syndrome
The grifting I see is the Observer piling a load of suffereing on this couple to sell their shitty newspaper.
Such a well made evidence based argument. I'm convinced. Thankfully this poor suffering couple are taking legal advice and with Penguin eager to protect their reputation (especially since they also published The Whole Pantry by Belle Gibson) we can expect the defamation case to be announced very soon and these liars at the Observer will get what's coming to them.
Right?
No crystal ball on my desk.
Well, you've had no problem making definitive statements with no evidence to back it up so far in this discussion.
Why stop now?
An inaccurate personal attack with nothing new about the topic being discussed, Brucewee. Time to leave you to it.
OK, I guess we can just wait until the defamation trial starts so you can come back and point out how wrong I was.
Given that the losses from this article are going to be significant (delayed book release, no distribution deal for the US yet, etc) it would be crazy if they didn't sue.
Unless, of course, there was actually nothing wrong with the articles.
The idea that if there's anything incorrect in the articles the victims (the couple) can successfully sue ignores the impunity of the press:
https://bylinetimes.com/2025/03/04/press-regulation-failing/
high-profile legal cases brought by celebrities such as Hugh Grant and Prince Harry have led to settlements and substantial payouts, the vast majority of victims of press abuse cannot afford to pursue justice and redress in the face of powerful and influential media owners.
Good thing they've made a few quid off the books and film then. I hear Penguin might have a bit of money as well. And is Tortoise Media really such a financial juggernaut it can afford to just keep litigating until the money runs out? I'm not sure about that...
It's curious that you're so adamant that The Observer has just made all this up when the Winns aren't even really contesting most of what has been written. For example, she doesn't admit embezzling the £64,000 but does express regret for her 'mistakes' at the time. Apparently it was 2008 and we were all doing mad shit back then.
An interesting analysis of Raynor Winn's rebuttal that you probably won't listen to:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2X5wBis3ME6ntab6HPfF3O?si=b525c0c0012149a0
There's one point you are absolutely right about in that post. 🙂
Oh look.
The Salt Path: 'Trusting Raynor Winn was our biggest mistake' - BBC News
Sharpen those pitchforks
This popped up for me today:
https://lithub.com/nature-is-not-going-to-cure-you-on-raynor-winns-fabricated-memoir/
This article says everything I've been trying to say over the last couple of pages but more clearly and from the point of view who is directly affected by the dangers of quackery being promoted as fact.
For years I have been trying to highlight this fixation on the Nature Cure as a kind of victim blaming, implying as it does that people who have not been cured by time spent with nature simply haven’t tried hard enough. In that time I have watched instead the belief that we could all just cure ourselves if we changed our lifestyles become policy, both in the UK and US.
This popped up for me today:
That's a very, very well written article. This resonated, in particular:
Publishing is, in many ways, a mirror of society at large. It reflects what people believe and want to believe. In this case: that illness can be controlled and avoided if only a person makes the right decisions. Lives right, eats right, moves right.
People do not want the messy, uncomfortable truth that disabled people know—that we are all only one infection or accident away from disability. That disability is not a choice, but a natural variation of existence. That disability is part of the natural world, and not an anomaly to be corrected. That incurable illnesses exist. That medicine is an inexact science. That a disabled life has just as much worth as any other.
In that time I have watched instead the belief that we could all just cure ourselves if we changed our lifestyles become policy, both in the UK and US
On the flip side, you have to admit that there is also a huge health crisis caused by poor diet & lifestyle. But yes agreed quackery has no place in modern medicine.
In that time I have watched instead the belief that we could all just cure ourselves if we changed our lifestyles become policy, both in the UK and US
On the flip side, you have to admit that there is also a huge health crisis caused by poor diet & lifestyle. But yes agreed quackery has no place in modern medicine.
No. That's not the point of the quoted text; it's highlighting attitudes about curing existing illness or disability through exercise in nature, which is wilfully ignorant at best. For an awful lot of people, it's gaslighting their circumstances.
The need for lifestyle change before illness happens or takes effect is, of course, to be wholly encouraged.
No. That's not the point of the quoted text; it's highlighting attitudes about curing existing illness or disability through exercise in nature, which is wilfully ignorant at best. For an awful lot of people, it's gaslighting their circumstances.
I don't know about the US, but I don't see any of that being "policy" in the UK
https://www.england.nhs.uk/personalisedcare/social-prescribing/green-social-prescribing/
As I stated, to help people before issues become critical with the use of nature is a good thing; to claim that people can be cured by going for a walk is simplifying health issues at best, and gaslighting at worst.
Yeah but that is not what the NHS is doing is it, they are 100% not saying go for a walk it will cure your cancer are they?
Who's talking about cancer? When nature is offered in place of proven therapies because it's easier & cheaper, then yes, we're in a dangerous place for the chronically ill.
It's too easy (and incorrect) to be very binary on this. No, going for a walk in a park won't cure cancer. OTOH, going for a walk in the park or the countryside does have health benefits like reducing stress, like improving CV health, like offsetting loss of bone density in the elderly, etc.
So, is going for a walk good or not is impossible to answer at a binary level.
'Prescribing' (including paying for) someone to attend evening classes to reduce isolation and loneliness sounds to me like a very rationale alternative to giving someone meds that don't fix the problem, but just mask it.
What is easy to answer is that anyone claiming that severe diseases can be cured by going for a long walk is probably best ignored, or at least viewed with a very serious pinch of salt.
Who's talking about cancer? When nature is offered in place of proven therapies because it's easier & cheaper, then yes, we're in a dangerous place for the chronically ill.
My cancer comment was more in context with the illness that the salt path authors husband suffered, not sure where nature is offered in place of proven therapies on basis of cost - are you able to provide any examples?
As recently as June 2025, Raynor Winn was still claiming that her husband’s “health has improved almost miraculously”
This has more of an Ernest Saunders vibe about it!
I couldn't resist watching the film despite the uproar. Turns out the thing that irritated me most was how they managed to walk sections yet somehow returned to Porloc weir.
The joys of knowing your film locations. I always remember a fight scene in Highlander which started in Glencoe and continued on the Cioch on Skye!
As recently as June 2025, Raynor Winn was still claiming that her husband’s “health has improved almost miraculously”
This has more of an Ernest Saunders vibe about it!
That is a selective quote to suit that authors agenda. The next paragraph says
"Nothing will cure his disease, but we’ve found a way to keep it at bay".
As someone who was diagnosed with a lifetime rare chronic illness, around the time this book came out, my relationship with strenuous activity closely parallels that described for Moth. As does the contrast between daily fatigue and lack of focus compared with the motivation of undertaking challenges - albeit at a much more modest scale.
I'm not implying that is possible or beneficial for everyone - and neither as far as I recall did she. I could easily have chosen to allow the fatigue to completely dictate my life. To be clear I have annual reviews with different consultants and am on daily meds that are essential to staying alive. As I recall she also discussed Moth's specialists and medications. Not that I'm about to reread the books to refresh my memory.
Everyone is different. I had a friend who was diagnosed with terminal cancer who was still ice climbing in the alps until he became too ill. It didn't prevent the cancer running its course but he didn't give up hope and do nothing. Again not everyone is capable of that response .