[Closed] The rich don't pay tax. Were you as surprised as George?

I was shocked that he was shocked.

It doesn't matter how shocked he is; what matters is how he deals with this 'new' information. That's what to judge him on..

Amazon - 2.5billion sales in the UK and.......how much Corporation tax?

Perhaps he was round RedKen's at the weekend for a dinner party.

That's what to judge him on..

i can't help but judge him on his naivety.

I'm shocked that no-one seems particularly shocked that he was shocked (apart from muppetwrangler)

But then, I assume that he assumes that all his rich pals pay their accountants to worry about their tax affairs, like he does, so he, like they, have no idea what rate of tax they pay.

That's a point, would he be shocked if he found out how much tax [b]he[/b] paid?

Why be surprised - we know he is thick

However he is also a duplicitous idiot - he claims more people will pay tax after the reduction in top tax rate.

He is also a multimillionaire who claims to not be a higher rate taxpayer as he hides his money in a trust fund to avoid tases.

I was shocked that everyone's shocked at Chancellor being shocked.

How do you think Henry VIII would deal with tax evaders?

In a later revelation Mr Osbourne was suprised to discover that the Pope is catholic and bears poo in the woods.

Our tax laws and regulations are far too complicated with too many loop holes for clever tax lawyers and accountants to exploit. Come on George, sort it out!

This from a man who inherited a £3M investment trust at aged 21 to avoid inheritance tax. I'm shock that anyone would be surprised that he's shocked.

IM SHOCKED & SO'S MY WIFE!

Oh hang on..this isnt the Monty Python appreciation society is it?

Sorree, wrong room..

Google paid just £8m of corporation tax in Britain – despite generating more than £6bn in revenues in this country in the six years to 2010.

Much as I'd like to jump on the bandwaggon of being appaled by all this.....

I'm not.

Once I'm chartered I'll set myself up as a ltd company and pay just as little tax as them.

Hora - stop mixing up revenues with profits... companies pay tax on net profits (with various adjustments for additional taxable/non-taxable items and reliefs). For fast growing companies like you mention, profits will be a small proportion of revenues (most of the value in those companies is in the potential for future earnings and they're also likely to have made losses in earlier years). The fact that they're US companies and have global operations will complicate it further (making it impossible to make simplistic statements about what they should be paying in the UK or globally).

Just saying for future reference, like (wouldn't want you sounding mis-informed 😉

Amazon and Google have been long established in the UK now.

Telegraph got it spot on 😆

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100149894/george-osborne-shocked-by-millionaires-tax-loopholes/

Hora - they're pretty well established for tech companies, but it's more complicated than that

Amazon had total revenues have $48bn last year but it's net profit before tax was less than $1bn. They operate in Europe through a Luxembourg company so finding out the profit made through UK operations will be impossible...

Anyway - it's discussed here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/deals/ref=cm_cd_ecf_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1DEIHNWYF5SA9&cdThread=Tx14R7K0GBKZ39D

It's a rubbish example, but I think the point is that if you've got enough money and can operate globally, there's likely to be relatively easy ways to reduce your tax bill (some of which are impossible to close down, whereas the "aggressive" avoidance is being addressed).

They operate in Europe through a Luxembourg company

Boots' HQ is, on paper at least, a PO Box in a tax haven. Vodaphone sorted out their tax return by taking a civil servant to dinner a few times.

Rod its not as simple as that either. You can conceal profit through operating costs etc etc in many layers/veils.

TandemJeremy - Member
Why be surprised - we know he is thick

However he is also a duplicitous idiot - he claims more people will pay tax after the reduction in top tax rate.

This however is true 🙂

According to the Telegraph, Osborne's plan is to limit the maximum tax relief in any one year to 25% of your income or £50k. The schemes being given as examples all revolved around claiming tax relief, e.g for charitable donations.

I am shocked he said it FFS he is the chancellor of the exchequer does he even know what currency we use?
I would accept him not knowing how much bog roll is or how to stop a bus to get on it but this WHY and how could he not know?
However he does seem to be saying the right things re targeting tax avoidance will he .....i very much doubt it but I am crossing my fingers that the right wing, tax avoiding, multi millionairre, heir apparent to the Osborne Baronetcy of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon, privileged toff will stick it to the rich. Dont let us down Gideon the common people have complete faith in you

Maybe its because he's just realised how he could have got away with paying less tax himself?

And, the rules have been created by the (various) Governments - as taxpayers we have to follow these rules. Is it our fault that they've created a most complex system that even they don't know how it works?

I see that one of the tax dodges he is going to close down is giving your money to charity to avoid paying tax. Now some charities I am sure will be established to benefit the wealthy but if I decide to give all my money to Oxfam I will then be taxed on my income and have to pay tax which means giving less money to the charity so I can pay my tax. I am not sure it is as simple as people are making out.

However he does seem to be saying the right things re targeting tax avoidance

So was Ken Livingstone. 😉

its such a contrived, ridiculous press release im wondering why news sites bothered to tun it, even the telegrapgh takes the pith out of him for it

He also flipped his house under parliament rules to avoid CGT

He is a mendacious liar

TandemJeremy - Member
He also flipped his house under parliament rules to avoid CGT

He is a [s]mendacious liar[/s] politician

FTFY

Hora - most operating costs are actual costs incurred (usually deductible if wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the trade) so you seem to think they're also partaking in fraud?

My original point is that saying a company made £x bn revenue and only paid £x m corporation tax is too simplistic and sounds like tabloid press headlines...

It's pretty clear that they (like many other companies) are operating through headquarters in a low corporation tax jurisdiction and organise their affairs to minimise the overall tax payable (which is probably not that much anyway in the case of Amazon). It's pretty hard for the UK to close up international loopholes though and if they're creating lots of jobs in the UK (and paying UK payroll taxes) I doubt any government would be worrying too much about that.

Aggressive tax avoidance is another thing altogether and the general anti avoidance rule [i]should[/i] help reduce it... (IME, rich individuals are the most likely to chance their arm at avoiding tax)

There are ways to do these legally. Moral though? The government is trying to sell the country as a tax haven/avoidance area to the Chinese. Strange when they own so much of our debt.

Why has no one caught up with Boots yet? They have a PO Box in Switzerland but no staff manning a physical office as per the rules. When is the case against Vodafone going through? Since Private Eye uncovered an extra £2 billion in inter-company loans that seem to plainly breach the rules? And Ken, poor Ken, just ballsed his election chances up didn't he!

Shutting down Voda's was a fun pastime admittedly 🙂

Going against the stream here but, is the rich avoiding/evading tax a new thing? How long has Gideon been chancellor? How long was Mr Brown chancellor?
Is it not fair to say that most of this went on under Browns watch and that he should bare far more of the blame than anyone else? Especially when we consider that Labour did precisely FA to rectify it in the 10 years they could have.

wrecker - Member

Going against the stream here but, is the rich avoiding/evading tax a new thing?

Course not. That's why Osborne isn't surprised by it.

Thing is... This story itself isn't about tax evasion, or avoidance, or about Osborne's capability as chancellor, or anything like that- it's about him lying to the public for no reason at all other than that he liked the way it sounded. And also that he gives the public so little credit that he thinks he can come out with such a blatant lie and nobody will notice.

The rich used to do a lot more tax avoidance 10 years ago (no doubt some were evading as well but jail is a bit of deterrent!) The introduction of the 50% tax rate also gave more incentive to avoid tax.

Non-rich people also avoid tax but the cost-benefit is lower so less incentive to do it.

It's not specific to this government - if anything things are getting tighter. But back to the original post, is anyone really surprised at a politcian feigning shock or lying? 🙂

Blimey, I hope no one's told him where bears do a No. 2
The shock might kill him.

LOL@ianmunro

We'd better not tell George that Father Christmas doesn't exist or he'll be devastated.

TandemJeremy - Member

Why be surprised - we know he is thick

Who's "we" ? I wasn't aware.

He seems like quite a clever **** to me.

Really? Many different sorts of clever but anyone who thinks we will be taken in by his "surprise" is pretty thick in my book. Especially as he has been the beneficiary of tax avoidance on multiple occasions.

He may have more booklearning than you Ernie but you have more nous 🙂

Yes mate. It came as a surprise to me that he's "thick".

He's Chancellor of the Exchequer. You're not.

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What is surprising me is the rich people's attitude to charity. In a nutshell they seem to be saying "we ain't giving to charity unless we get tax breaks"
Unbeleivable. Personally I wish Gideon luck in getting these people to pay their tax, and I hope it's comparable with the % the rest of us do.

It may come as a shock, but politicians lie. It's in the job description.

There some signs to look out for. Next time one pops up on the TV, watch carefully, if his mouth moves.........

[i]Why has no one caught up with Boots yet? They have a PO Box in Switzerland but no staff manning a physical office as per the rules.[/i]

Maybe its changed since I was there, but there was a 'person/lawyer' as per the rules - they also covered a lot of other companies too.

At the end of the day, any company that doesn't minimise its taxes (and other costs) is really failing its shareholders.

In a nutshell they seem to be saying "we ain't giving to charity unless we get tax breaks"

Alternatively, they may be saying "If I can't keep it, then I'd rather give it to charity and minimise the amount that is confiscated by the wastrel flapheads who gain political power"

He is also a multimillionaire who claims to not be a higher rate taxpayer as he hides his money in a trust fund to avoid tases.

Surely whether he's a higher rate taxpayer is nothing to do with the amount of money in his trust fund. All he has to do is adjust the income he takes from the trust to make sure all his income from whatever source comes to less than £150,000.

Really TJ your sanctimonious frothing hatred of him is getting a bit tired. Are you telling me that if your dad had a few million to hand down to you and had taken advantage of a legal tax avoidance method that you'd close it down and pay tax on the lot? Is there a flying pig emoticron?

why not Boris does.
I am sureothers do

Gideon cannot really complain about tax avoidance when he does it or pretend it is a surprise wehn he does it and that is the story. It is not about whether TJ would do this[ personally I think he is a man of his word and he would not avoid tax ] it is about whether anyone believe the tax avoiding chancellor is "surprised" people do it. Only a fool would be surprised by this and I doubt we can find one, even on STW, going really do they ...well I never, the rich avoid tax, well **** me. I wonder if anything has been in the news with say tory deputy chairmen implicated in tax avoidance.I wonder if this person is a friend of georges.

Lord Ashcroft courted controversy when Chairman of the Conservative Party Eric Pickles MP declared on BBC Radio 4 that Ashcroft would be willing to appear on the station's flagship Today programme to clarify his unclear tax status. However, when invited, Lord Ashcroft quickly declined, according to John Humphrys. Ashcroft delayed comment on whether he currently pays tax on his global income in the United Kingdom, despite being a prominent and influential member of the legislature and major donor to the Conservative Party but eventually announced his non-domiciled status.

then I'd rather give it to charity and minimise the amount that is confiscated by the wastrel flapheads who gain political power"

Course you can

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/individuals/giving/basics.htm

So, LeftyTrackWorld, what's your take on Ken's tax dodging hypocrisy?

Gideon cannot really complain about tax avoidance when he does it or pretend it is a surprise wehn he does it and that is the story

How do you know he avoids tax. Have you seen his accounts?

However I agree his remarks were disingenuous and I can't quite see what he hoped to gain by feigning ignorance.

Personally I'm with Peter Mandelson who said he was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich [i]as long as they pay their taxes[/i]"

For some reason the last bit is always left out.

So either close all the avoidance loopholes or come up with a "tycoon tax". I see no reason why millionaires should be able to pay less than 30% tax.

[i] It is not about whether TJ would do this[ personally I think he is a man of his word and he would not avoid tax ][/i]

It depends on your definition of 'avoid'. We know that TJ has a second property he rents out, I'm sure he takes 'advantage' of any tax 'reduction' methods (TJ?) - or do you not class this as tax 'avoidance'?

Au contraire, I'm sure he's careful to maximise his tax bill by failing to subtract his costs from rental income before he submits his tax return 😉

[quote=CaptainFlashheart said]So, LeftyTrackWorld, what's your take on Ken's tax dodging hypocrisy?

Well we should feel some sympathy for Ken as in the last two years he's only had a salary of £5,700 🙁 Poor Ken.

Funny that £5,715 was the amount above which he would have been liable for class 4 NI contributions of 8% in 2010-2011. How fortuitous that this meagre salary was supplemented by £55K of dividends in 2010-2011 and £63,333 in dividends in 2011-2012.

Without having seen the tax returns that he was shown, I can't really say whether I'd be shocked. I'm also curious about what you could actually tell from a tax return alone. The whole point of tax avoidance is finding ways to legally assert that your earnings are not really income for tax purposes, which means you don't put it on your tax return. So surely he must have some external information about how much these anonymised individuals are really making?

What I am shocked by is the proposed "fix". Tax avoidance is about exploiting complexity in the tax system. What's this fix? Add more complexity - introduce a new rule that specifies a minimum tax percentage for "millionaires". I have no idea how this could work - the whole point is that you can't reliably assess taxable income, so what does this percentage apply to?

So, LeftyTrackWorld, what's your take on Ken's tax dodging hypocrisy?

You cannot criticise a tory no matter what they do and yet you get all gleeful over ken*...still no real surprise is there in discovering a Tory being a self serving mendacious ****

So flashy your view on tories is it all spiffing or is it just not cricket?

* my views were debated on another thread and flashy knows i think he is a hypocrit... but he cannot criticise a tory and always tries to divert any story back to leftes even [especially] when it is barely relevant..nice distraction tactic but tiresome

Perhaps George was surprised because Labour had been in power since 1997 and rich people were still getting away with paying less tax...
By way of balance the top 1% of earners actually pay 24% of income tax revenue and the top 10% pay over half.Then add on the 20% VAT on their much larger expenditure on goods and services.They are also far more likely to pay for private schooling and healthcare rather than using the state.

So, LeftyTrackWorld, what's your take on Ken's tax dodging hypocrisy?

My take on it is he's a mere amateur compared to your beloved tory boys.

By way of balance the top 1% of earners actually pay 24% of income tax revenue and the top 10% pay over half.Then add on the 20% VAT on their much larger expenditure on goods and services.They are also far more likely to pay for private schooling and healthcare rather than using the state.

They can afford it.

Thinking about it, Mr Livingstone was only doing what the HMRC expected of him anyway. And also this "he only pays 20%" is terribly misleading.

......politicians lie. It's in the job description.

So what happens if they don't lie ?

They don't get elected ?

Thinking about it, Mr Livingstone was only doing what the HMRC expected of him anyway. And also this "he only pays 20%" is terribly misleading.

Why are you thinking about Ken Livingstone ?.......because Flashheart wants you to ?

Why are you thinking about Ken Livingstone ?.......because Flashheart wants you to ?

No, because he's dreamy and i want to have his newts. 8)

Good point Ernie

Why not think about Ed Miliband, and his two million pound house, left to him by his father in a trust fund to avoid inheritance tax

or David Miliband, and his service company, that his media and appearance fees get channeled through to avoid income tax, since he and his wife take the money as shareholder dividends

Or Gordon and Sarah brown, who do the same

And then why not think about Boris (boo, hiss) who has proven to us that he paid the full whack in his tax, at the top rate, no service companies, no creative accounting - funny that - the evil Tory paying his taxes, and the good old fashioned socialists pulling every wheeze in the book to get out of it..

But that's OK because it doesn't count if you are a socialist, its only wrong if you're a Tory...

Why not think about Ed Miliband, and his two million pound house, left to him by his father in a trust fund to avoid inheritance tax

or David Miliband, and his service company, that his media and appearance fees get channeled through to avoid income tax, since he and his wife take the money as shareholder dividends

Or Gordon and Sarah brown, who do the same

Yes of course. It's so obvious. The Labour Party is full of millionaire toffs born with silver spoons in their mouths. JUST LIKE THE TORY PARTY.

I wonder why no one's ever noticed that ?

But that's OK because it doesn't count if you are a socialist, its only wrong if you're a Tory...

Erm, don't see any socialists in the names you have mentioned there z-11. Is this possibly because the stick you measure socialism by is some bloke called John Redwood?

Whats that you say? Labour, millionaires, silver spoons, socialists? pah, nonsense!

[img] [/img]

EAT THE RICH

Oh you're absolutely right Zulu-Eleven. The Labour Party is packed with multimillionaire toffs from privileged backgrounds .....JUST LIKE THE TORY PARTY !

I wonder why it's only you who's noticed that ?

Hmmm, he may be onto something...

[img] [/img]

Why have you posted a photo of Peter Mandelson Zulu-Eleven ? Are you trying to demolish your own argument ? How gallant of you 🙂

ah right wingers bless c on an issue about the tory chancellor we now apparently should discuss either tony benn or mandy. It's not hard to see what you and flashy have tried to achieve so any views on the actual issue?
jesus i know we have battle lines here but you both literally never say a word about the right EVER....go on lets have another labour /lefty bash from you both on the chancellors views on tax avoidance you know it makes sense 🙄

What worries me isn't the fact that rich people of all political persuasions aren't paying any tax*, its the approach of HMRC

If you run a small business, the HMRC are a tyranny. They'll come down on you like a ton of bricks for the slightest infringement

Yet it seems that if you're a multinational or a rich individual, you can have cosy meetings over a nice civilised lunch, with a few glasses of wine, and basically make you're own arrangements.

With the amount of money involved here, are you telling me that those cosy arrangements aren't getting the nod from George and his friends at the treasury. So to then try and feign shock is just insulting to everyone's intelligence

* The usual 'they're all as bad as each other' clause applies

I think that's generally how law and governance has made its priorities, in all aspects of life, chase the easy victories and rule over those that accept it.

With the amount of money involved here, are you telling me that those cosy arrangements aren't getting the nod from George and his friends at the treasury

I agree with the sentiment but to solely direct blame at the current administration is unfair. This went on for [b]10 years[/b] under labour, who did sweet fanny adams about it.

Wrecker - as I stated - The usual 'they're all as bad as each other' clause applies

I think the motivation is slightly different. New Labour were pathetically fawning and in awe of the rich, whereas the Tories went to school with them and have them round for 'Kitchen Suppers'

The end result's the same though

I think the motivation is slightly different. New Labour were pathetically fawning and in awe of the rich, whereas the Tories went to school with them and have them round for 'Kitchen Suppers'

The end result's the same though

I quite agree, the reasons are irrelevant; in the end the rich have done equally well under each party. I've nothing against people earning money, being rich, making profit BUT they should bloody well pay tax on their money at the same rate the rest of us do.

BUT they should bloody well pay tax on their money at the same rate the rest of us do.

Interesting, because they are "asked" to pay more for income tax. If it was simpler and lower then you may get fewer people trying to avoid it so revenues may go up.

Interesting, because they are "asked" to pay more for income tax.

To give some perspective. US republican candidates average tax payment 10%.

Same the world over.