[Closed] The resurrection of our Lord God Jesus Christ?

Oh no what have you done ..?

My only contribution to this thread

You'll go to hell for that.

Oh boy.

What's that got to do with rabbits hiding chocolate eggs in elaborate cardboard boxes?

3 pages before its closed , mini egg anyone 🙂

Christian Zombie Festival is underway

I thought it more a case of re-selection of Jesus Christ ??

it is a more plausible story TBF lol

easter is derived from a pagan word.  It has nothing to do with Christianity  lol

Oh no what have you done ..?

I've made a better world for everyone, nobody laugh, nobody cry, for ever and ever amen.

And what if there was no virgin birth, it being just a lie to cover up the fact that Mary was a slag?

Serious amounts of cursing if ypu are sitting with your gran.

Easter is certainly the pre christian spring fertility festival co opted by the christians.  Bunnies?  Eggs?  Not a lot to do with Christianity and plenty to do with fertility

Let's face it the idea of some guy rising from the dead is a tad implausible, so what do you reckon did actually happen, if anything?

The entire Christian faith hinges on the resurrection. The idea that christ returned from the dead 'proves' his divinity. If we can debunk the resurrection we can collapse the entire Christian faith, hopefully before tea.

Loving that Crass album, not heard it since it came out 🙂

My landlady is a devout Christian and a wonderful person.

her brother died twice in a 6 week period and is now out of hospital. Does she have to worship him now?

Can we do it after tea?

We're having hot cross buns and it'd take all the fun out of it.

her brother died twice in a 6 week period and is now out of hospital. Does she have to worship him now?

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">To be pedantic, the Christian claim is not that Jesus was resuscitated, as in the case of your neighbour's brother. The claim is he was resurrected - that his resurrected body was very different from our earthly bodies, which even when resuscitated, will eventually die. </span>

Blimey. Pedantry AND religion. Who knew..

Blimey. Pedantry AND religion. Who knew..

It’s always a surprise that any religion can demand exactness and vagueness in equal measure.

When do I eat my easter eggs?

I'll be going to the Paschal Vigil this evening at Lincoln Cathedral.

Just read the book (weird start to it)  and missed the bit where he lays the eggs? Is it in the sequel? Also no Dumbledore?

Blimey. Pedantry AND religion. Who knew..

I should emphasise I'm Pedantic, not Religious.

When do I eat my easter eggs?

Before the tooth fairy comes along.

The trouble with your Newer Testament here is that it doesn't mention the goldfish or the lincoln log, central parts of the story of jesus.

It's a shame he couldn't have waited until June or July to annoy the Jews / Romans and get himself crucified.

Does anybody else see the irony of a carpenter meeting his end by method of wood and nails or is that just me?

Does anybody else see the irony of a carpenter meeting his end by method of wood and nails or is that just me?

To hell with Jehovah
To the carpenter I said
I wish that a carpenter
had made the world instead
Goodbye and good luck to you
our ways will soon divide
Remember me tomorrow
The man you hung beside
It’s God they ought to crucify instead of you and me
I said to the carpenter, a-hanging on the tree

Sydney Carter

Read more:  http://theconnexion.net/wp/?p=12227#ixzz5BLXlEV4s
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Share Alike

I always thought I was the chosen one , as I too am a Car Painter.

So, he’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy?

easter is derived from a pagan word.  It has nothing to do with Christianity  lol

Yeah, Eostra. The whole thing is suspicious, the fact that the Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut, and set it as a movable feast, from March 21 up to around April 9; they know when Christmas is, for Christ’s sake... It’s just a Christian celebration pasted on top of a pagan celebration as a means to get the great unwashed into church where they can be conned into handing over their hard-earned to a very rich institution.

But the Jewish Passover has always been at this time of year in fairness. And the gospels are explicit that the Crucifixion happened around Passover.

I think the nativity is more open to debate - especially the reference to shepherds watching their flocks, which suggests spring or autumn.

which one would imagine were pretty clear cut, and set it as a movable feast, from March 21 up to around April 9

Based on a lunar calendar. I always love the idea that we, in the 21st century, still base our year in part on a prehistoric way of measuring the year.

shepherds watching their flocks, which suggests spring or autumn.

No it doesn’t. They watch their flocks to protect them from predators or theft. Common in any nomadic or non-enclosed society.

Christmas is also a pagan festival adopted by the christians.  Midwinter solstice.  Holly and Ivy?  Not a lot to do with christianity.  then there is the image of Jesus as a nordic blond - almost certainly just a reused image from the romans when they became christian.  Probably saturn.  they saved a lot of repainting in roman temples.

image of Jesus as a nordic blond – almost certainly just a reused image from the romans when they became christian.

Except the Romans weren’t Nordic blondes, and the Byzantine Romans (who were the ones who actually became Christian) certainly weren’t.

That image of Jesus is from the European Renaissance iirc.

[img] [/img]

Christian Zombie Festival is underway

I don't believe that Christians or anyone else need to be protected from insults and crass humour, but I do wonder why this was a necessary comment. It's also what I don't get about any thread like this. I mean you don't believe in God. Good for you. Why make clearly inflammatory comments about aspects of other people's religious tradition? Don't believe it. That is, of course, your choice.

If I lived in India as a non-Hindu, I can't imagine taking pot shots at Hindu belief on a bicycle forum. It's just bizarre behaviour.

Yeah, Eostra. The whole thing is suspicious, the fact that the Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut, and set it as a movable feast, from March 21 up to around April 9; they know when Christmas is, for Christ’s sake… It’s just a Christian celebration pasted on top of a pagan celebration as a means to get the great unwashed into church where they can be conned into handing over their hard-earned to a very rich institution.

FFS, I have spent too much time today debunking this bullshit. People talking bollocks based on a ****ing internet meme.

There are two calendrical systems in operation when calculating dates in the Church: the Menaion and Paschal. The Nativity belongs to the Menaion and is fixed. Easter (or Pascha as it is more commonly called by the world's Christians) is not fixed because it is based on the date of the Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. In the Latin West, there was no issue with this coinciding with the Jewish Passover, whereas in the Greek East, in order to distinguish themselves from the Jewish communities, the early Christian communities were concerned that Pascha NOT coincide.

Not that any of you will care for history or fact when engaging in religion-bashing.

Anyway, here's an Easter gift for you all. Enjoy the long weekend.

[img] [/img]

There are two calendrical systems in operation when calculating dates in the Church: the Menaion and Paschal. The Nativity belongs to the Menaion and is fixed. Easter (or Pascha as it is more commonly called by the world’s Christians) is not fixed because it is based on the date of the Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. In the Latin West, there was no issue with this coinciding with the Jewish Passover, whereas in the Greek East, in order to distinguish themselves from the Jewish communities, the early Christian communities were concerned that Pascha NOT coincide.

That doesn’t explain why Easter would coincide with a pre-existing pagan spring festival. (Or not!)

And it’s not an internet meme - it was well established when I was growing up. (I’m old now.)

Blessed are the cheese makers.

Well, IdleJon, I don't know how old you are, but I'm not exactly young, and the number of times I have seen it on my facebook timeline today alone exceeds counting.

As for the coincidence, you might try reading link I provided. That said, it really isn't that surprising that Spring should inspire thoughts of new life and of fertility, is it? There are all sorts of rituals and festivals across the human race and across history that have developed around the seasons and their natural associations. It's really not that conspiratorial.

SaxonRider - I agree that there’s no conspiracy but the early Christians did their best to obliterate alternative religion and religious sites. The placing of churches on pagan sacred sites, the re-use of existing festivals, etc. (Not just the early Christians - this happened in South America and for all I know may still happen today) I can take you to plenty of churches locally which are located next to so-called sacred springs or the like. I’m sure you know all of this. My point was that you made an entirely ecumenical point which didn’t answer the question that you yourself posited. 😁

edit - Don’t want to start an argument in the usual STW style

#fakenews

Regardless of what you believe, funkmasterp, there is still historical, cultural, anthropological, and social fact behind the claims being asserted in some of the above posts.

I would not imagine trying to posit articles of faith as empirical fact, and therefore have no intention of bringing the ideas you list into this discussion.

I am only disputing claims such as the Christian observance of Easter is derived from Eostra. Either that is factual or it is not. And I am saying it is not.

Saxon, I will also agree with funkmasterp (including the bit about being a great guy) but that link you posted is supposed to be evidence? Why would that be any more convincing than any other toss that gets posted on the internet? History for atheists - from a completely unbiased (religious) POV!

Why is easter called easter - because its superimposed on the pagan spring festival.  Same as christmas.  Clever work by the eraly christians to put their festivals on when the pre christians had theirs.  Nothing to do with the dates these things supposedly happened.

the fact that the Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut

Easter is fixed relative to Passover, and Passover is fixed in the Jewish calendar.  The solar calendar you and I use isn't the only one.

Why is easter called easter – because its superimposed on the pagan spring festival.

Also not true.  Jesus was crucified after the last supper which was his Passover feast.  It's not super-imposed at all.  It just happens to be in the spring, so it has *merged* with pre-Christian festivals, for sure.  But the Christians didn't pick the date to co-incide with them.

I am only disputing claims such as the Christian observance of Easter is derived from Eostra. Either that is factual or it is not. And I am saying it is not.

The timing of it is tho. Its what the early christians did - take and existing pagan festival and superimpose their festival on it  good PR move, no basis in fact.

The timing of it is tho.

Nope - see above.

Why is it that anyone who ever posts anything mildly non pc on here is accused of causing offence, yet religion seems to be a fair target, despite I'm assuming that a fair few people on here will find the op's post pretty offensive .

I should say It does not offend me in the slightest, but then nothing on here does. I do find the hypocrisy pretty cringe worthy however.. The amount of times I've seen posters criticised for being intolerant of others viewpoints only appears to work one way on this site.

superimposed on the pagan spring festival. Same as christmas.

There’s a suggestion that Xmas is celebrated on 25th December because it was already the date of the Roman celebration of Sol Invictus which started in the 3rd century AD, not so long before Christianity was institutionalised in the Roman Empire.

History for atheists – from a completely unbiased (religious) POV!

I put it up because I get tired of writing mini essays on late-antique history, and that writer nails it. In any case, as you'll see from his 'about me' page, the writer is himself a fully paid-up atheist. He just gets as frustrated with pseudo history as I do. 🙂

Also, it's only called Easter in Germanic langauges afaik - in others (including the ones that would have been spoken at the council of Nicea) it's not.  So the name thing is nothing whatsoever to do with the 'early Christians'.

Christian leaders who set the date couldn’t actually agree on the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection, which one would imagine were pretty clear cut

Thats assuming that there was one set of Christian leaders. There weren’t, there were different sects much as there are today, hence little agreement over when to celebrate.

A proper religious debate would be interesting but this is like listening to kids talk about sex.

including the ones that would have been spoken at the council of Nicea

Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?) so should have had a fair spread of languages. (I suspect the word Easter is a later development though?)

A proper religious debate

Ooh, I’ll bow out then - I though it was a historical debate. 🤔

That's assuming that there was one set of Christian leaders. There weren’t, there were different sects much as there are today, hence little agreement over when to celebrate.

This is partially true. Early Christianity grew out of the various Jewish communities dispersed around the Western Mediterranean world, extending even as far as the Arabian Peninsula. But well within the first century, they began to co-mingle with Greeks, and draw on Greek philosophy to wrestle with their central-most ideas.

In the process, different groups sprang up in parallel with the mainstream communities, all of whom looked to a group of recognised successors to the apostles.

Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?)

Well, AIUI Britain was mostly Pagan until 600 AD ish, and the Council of Nicaea was in 325AD, so I doubt it.

I though it was a historical debate.

I wasn't complaining about your input, please continue 🙂

Iirc Nicaea would have included representatives of all major Christian communities (including Britain and Northern European countries?) so should have had a fair spread of languages. (I suspect the word Easter is a later development though?)

The language of Nicaea was Greek, and was certainly too early for inclusion of Northern European participation. Pelagius is the earliest known figure on the Christian landscape, and he was two generations after.

In any case, Easter is a Saxon term - a language not known in Britain until sometime in the 5th century.

No it wasn’t Molgrips. It was Romanised and Christianity almost certainly spread here as it did through the rest of the Roman world. It didn’t become a state religion obviously. There isn’t much archaeological evidence but there interesting early burials near Hadrians Wall. And yes, there were documented British representatives at Nicaea.

There were no documented British representatives at Nicaea I, IdleJon. Where are you getting this from?

Yes easter is a saxon word.  Like much of modern english.  Uncannily similar to the name of the pagan fertilty festival  which is celebrated at the spring equinox.

Saxonrider - why are the symbols of easter rabbits and eggs?  What have they got to do with christianity?  Or are the remmnants of the earlier festivals?  Same as holly, ivy and mistletoe at christmas - relics of the pre christian midwinter solstice feast.

Its funny how these pre christian symbols used at pre christian midwinter solstice and spring equinox festivals are now supposdly "christian" when none of them actually have any connection with christianity

there is no doubt at all that these christian festivals were superimposed on pre christian ones.

Please don’t make me trawl through my history books, Saxon Rider. It’s too late and I’ve got wine to drink. 🤣

Anyway, what evidence is there that Greek was spoken when the council was called by Constantine who was a (modern day) Serbian Roman? Yes, Byzantium later spoke Greek but why would they have done so at this date, in what was still the Roman Empire in Turkey?

Oi vay. Because Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire even as late as the fourth century. Latin only takes precedence in the Western Empire after Constantine. That, and the texts of Nicaea are in Greek. I know this because I've worked with them.

From the second paragraph of the Wikipedia entry:

Koine Greek had become a shared language around the eastern Mediterranean and into Asia Minor as a consequence of the conquests of Alexander the Great.[6] The "linguistic frontier" dividing the Latin West and the Greek East passed through the Balkan peninsula.[7] Educated Romans, particularly those of the ruling elite, studied and often achieved a high degree of fluency in Greek, which was useful for diplomatic communications in the East even beyond the borders of the Empire. The international use of Greek was one condition that enabled the spread of Christianity, as indicated for example by the choice of Greek as the language of the Epistles of Paul[8] and its use for the ecumenical councils of the Christian Roman Empire. With the dissolution of the Empire in the West, Greek became the dominant language of the Eastern Roman Empire, later known as the Byzantine Empire.

Depends what you mean by 'superimposed'.  I don't think the Council of Nicaea said 'ok let's have our festival at the same time as the Pagans, that way we can take over their existing pissup'.  Is that what you're suggesting?

Do churches do easter bunnies and eggs?

“

Moses

Member
You’ll go to hell for that”

Typical response from one of you Old Testament types.

You’ve worked with later translations of the texts, SR, not the original texts, I assume? Anyway, good enough explanation. In all my reading I’ve never thought about the various languages of the empire. Apparently Constantine could speak Greek well enough despite Latin being his first language.

Btw if we are using Wikipedia as evidence:

“Delegates came from every region of the Roman Empire, including Britain.[28]”

That must be true! (But I’ve read it elsewhere and I can’t find where. I suspect the name of the token Brit wasn’t documented as I said earlier.)

And look at us - Saturday night, arguing for minor point about an ecumenical council 1700 years ago. Rock and roll!

You’ve worked with later translations of the texts, SR, not the original texts, I assume?

Pretty sure he meant the original texts.

Ideljon - on what I know of saxonrider challenging him on history and theology is a losers game

I would still be interestd tho infrom a christian perspective why all these pre christian symbols are still used.  Bunnies, eggs, hollyy, ivy misteltoe etc yew trees in church yards even.

Well, it would seem pretty plausible that regular everyday people can perpetuate pre-christian symbols.. wouldn't it?

on what I know of saxonrider challenging him on history and theology is a losers game

I’m not trying to win, I’m trying to learn, if there is anything to learn. He obviously has a deeper involvement in these things whereas I only have an amateur’s interest.

molgrips, I should have said transcriptions not translations.

Don't really want to get into the christian overlay onto pagan festivals debate, save to say that there's only one recorded reference to any goddess called Eostre (eostra/ostara/whatever), and that's in Bede. The whole Eostre/Easter thing is very flimsy if using that as a hook to hang it on. Some belief that there's a connection to Ishtar too, but not convinced by that either.

More interested (as an art teacher) in the blonde Christ thing. Comes mainly from early Byzantine christian images, which were themselves co-opted images of Apollo/Helios - a curly haired blonde guy with the sun behind his head. The beard came a bit later (3rd to 6th century CE), although the light hair stayed, and wasn't standardised in the west until much later (some early medieval manuscripts from Britain still have him clean-shaven). Basically, the conventional image of Christ was driven by art, not religious belief.