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Just as we were breathing a sigh of relief that we'd escaped the worst of the deluge affecting Valencia, we've had both barrels of the DANA today. We live half way between Barcelona and Valencia and it flooded Tarragona last night and Barcelona this morning, its been biblical for the last hour and although we live on a hillside, the runoff has turned into a river. The soil in this area is sandy so the erosion has been incredible, great fissures have emerged on the dirt roads and deposited silt down at the coast. Obviously our hearts go out to those who have lost their lives and homes in Valencia, we donated food and nappies at the weekend. I get the feeling that this isn't over by a long way.
We have just returned to the UK after a 7 week touring holiday in the caravan in that area and look on in horror at what Valencia has suffered, it’s surely had a huge impact not only on the city but the rice growing area around Albufera. We stayed at Peniscola, Cambrils, Sitges and Roses, do you know how these towns have fared? we haven’t heard anything specific.We had some torrential rain while we were there but nothing compared to what has just happened. We can only hope the worst is over but it seems to be hanging around a long time.
It really has been horrific to watch on the news over here.
Incredible scenes for a European nation, but similar to the destruction in Germany a year or two back. We've had a calm period here in the UK - possibly feeding on to the weather pattern in Spain, but the jet stream would not have to move too far to put the UK in the firing line, and our infrastructure would likely be just as devastated.
Mmm, I wonder why we’re getting so many “once in a lifetime” storms/floods/fires? If only we could find the cause!l
My parents live in Moraira and have reported rain today (they didn't have any when Valencia was hit)
I've seen photos and video from Cambrils and Tarragona, lots of roads closed due to landslides and where the roads pass under the coastal railway line. Barcelona Airport is flooded with ankle deep water in the terminal. Castelldefels near Sitges has fared badly due to runoff from the surrounding hills so the motorway to the airport is closed as well. Flow of the main river that flows into south Barcelona, the Llobregat, went from 13m3/second to 240m3/second in an hour
Does look like a stuck weather system - potentially why UK weather has just been stuck under heavy cloud that's not moving.
Mmm, I wonder why we’re getting so many “once in a lifetime” storms/floods/fires? If only we could find the cause!l
I did hear someone had an explanation, but they got put in jail.
This explains it fairly well:
Part of the problem in Valencia is people weren't informed of the extreme danger until it was already in progress, hence the high number of lives lost....
I'm a bit further down the coast (almeria) and by luck escaped the worst of it... although we all got this on mobile phones the other day... first time I've seen the emergency text system used!
It wasn't as bad here but it was a bit stormy.. some roads out etc.
It's horrific. Those poor people. Did you see the crowds chucking mud at the local government guy and the royals? Hardly surprising!
#ThoughtAnd Prayers won't restore houses/businesses nor reanimate the dead.
2-3 incredibly hot years with unbearable summers has turned the ground into rock hard soil for most of the Iberian Peninsula. This creates conditions for immediate run-off from any rainfall. When there is huge amount of rain then it's like dropping a bathtub of water on a concrete drive way. It races downhill and washes away anything in it's path. We've just seen this on an epic scale.
Factor in rivers that have been re-routed, development on the course of the old river and ineffective civil preparedness and you have a recipe for a disaster. The local govt will probably state that this level of rain was unlikely but there was a very big flood in Valencia in 1957 and Malaga in 1989. Flash flooding has happened within living memory in the same location, they knew it could happen even if you ignore climate change.
The elephant in the room is Climate Change which will make these events worse in the future but as we've witnessed the future is rapidly becoming current conditions. A recent UN report states that we've flown past 1.6deg C warming, a more realistic trajectory is in the 2.6-3.1 deg C range.
A recent UN report states that we’ve flown past 1.6deg C warming, a more realistic trajectory is in the 2.6-3.1 deg C range.
We're part of a few European programmes around climate adaptation. Most are working on 4*c now and the significant chaos and different approaches needed.
If I owned a house anywhere near sea level, a river, a place where (almost inconceivably) water could flow, exposed to wind, predicted 'hotter summers' I would be moving.
The National Trust Climate hazard map is predicted on 2*c, so increase what that tells you for your house, school, business etc.
It's a lot more nuanced than that, the UN report is a global context but there is huge variability at a national, regional and local level. Like most things, the devil is in the detail and it's really difficult to make generalisations that remain true for most locations.
Look at projected sea level rise, even worse case scenarios we're under 1m increase across most of Europe by 2100 but there are places around the globe with 5-8m predictions by 2100!
It's very scary stuff.
Also I don't know what the infrastructure is like around Valencia, but around here we have storm drains 'ramblas' leading to the sea... A bit like in terminator 2 when the t1000 is chasing Arnie and John Connor on the motorbike.
They are not all very well maintained and have a lot of debris and vegetation growing in them which won't help.
Part of the problem in Valencia is people weren’t informed of the extreme danger until it was already in progress, hence the high number of lives lost….
Apparently the warning did go out, but the local government didn't actually turn that into any practical action: no school closures, shutting down businesses, etc.
Apparently the warning did go out, but the local government didn’t actually turn that into any practical action: no school closures, shutting down businesses, etc.
I don't know exactly how it went down as it's a different municipality/local government .. Just what I've heard from locals.
I'm told the public didn't get the emergency text like we did in almeria the other day.
some serious rain. Ive got friends who live south of Valencia who have largely escaped the worst of it (L'Olleria) while also keeping a close eye on the news from Benicassim/Orpesa.
EDIT - UNBLOCKED REUTERS LINK AND BELOW QUESTION ANSWERED
While i clearly understand the strength of feeling from the residents in Valencia, Im not really clear as to how much the government could have done/been expected to do? Im not picking a fight, but if anyone understands the relative timelines for whats happened over the last week (or a useful link) i'd be interested.
Reuters link blocked by work - i will check back later
They are not all very well maintained and have a lot of vegetation growing on them which won’t help.
That is my impression of the storm drains and rivers in the affected area. Looking from street view photography there are lots of reasonably big trees near the bridges. My understanding of storm drains is that they need to quickly move the water through the area of to the sea/lagoon rather than slowing the flow down at that last point? I guess there would be a few people who would disagree with removing the trees and foliage base on environmental grounds? And why bother removing the trees if it hardly ever rains? Expensive for the local councils to justify the cost of maintenance?
I guess there would be a few people who would disagree with removing the trees and foliage base on environmental grounds? And why bother removing the trees if it hardly ever rains? Expensive for the local councils to justify the cost of maintenance?
Possibly, but as someone above said, after prolonged dry spells, several years in this case, the regular ground becomes pretty much rock solid, so when it does rain hard, the water isn't absorbed into the ground... It all just runs downhill on the surface...hopefully into strategically built storm drains, but if they are obstructed, they overflow.
There's a lot to this, and a lot of questions to be answered...
I did hear someone had an explanation, but they got put in jail.
Really? Who got put in jail for explaining the increase in extreme weather events?
There is some talk of the new local Govt making cutbacks to civil defence budgets - the people who would prepare, coordinate/respond to these types of events e.g. earthquake, landslides etc. I'm not sure if that is true though.
And why bother removing the trees if it hardly ever rains?
That is not true though. It does rain. Storm Gloria brought very bad flooding in early 2020. Storms and floods are not as rare as people think they are. The difference this time is the magnitude of the event so it overwhelmed everything. BUT if things were better managed, i.e. warning systems, conduit/drainage maintenance programs then we'd be having a very different conversation.
2-3 incredibly hot years with unbearable summers has turned the ground into rock hard soil for most of the Iberian Peninsula. This creates conditions for immediate run-off from any rainfall. When there is huge amount of rain then it’s like dropping a bathtub of water on a concrete drive way. It races downhill and washes away anything in it’s path. We’ve just seen this on an epic scale.
This ^^. I go out to a place in the Sierra Nevadas occasionally, the last 2-3 years there's been less and less snow on the high mountains (and lasting less and less time) and the two main reservoirs in the area are way down on what should be their normal level. One is at about 15% of normal now.
Málaga and the surrounding area, especially heading east along the coast has hundreds of acres of greenhouses and also mango and avocado plantations, all of which take huge amounts of water.
The ground all around is completely parched.
Only second hand info but a business contact just posted after 4 days of being cut off that the warning arrived in his town 15 minutes after the place flooded. Simply no time to escape, hence the anger
That is not true though. It does rain.
Yes it does rain in south east spain, but it's not little and often... its mostly long very dry spells, but when is does rain, IT REALLY RAINS! for a short period of time.
I know storm and rain events aren't rare. A few years back I was in Nice early October 201? and there was a 24hr period of rain which affected the city with lives lost in the area plus underground car parks.
The hardly ever rains comment is meant more in general for the area, out of 365 days in a year it probably only rains on 60 days and on 59 of those days the storm drains and rivers cope well. The trees and vegetation that are slowly growing within the storm drains and rivers aren't a problem for 99% of the deluges, everyone enjoys the shade and greenery in an otherwise hot arid environment.
All numbers above are guess work. Just like the local authorities guessing that the trees and maintenance of the drains and rivers won't be a problem until next year if they are able to cope with this year's rains.
Only second hand info but a business contact just posted after 4 days of being cut off that the warning arrived in his town 15 minutes after the place flooded. Simply no time to escape, hence the anger
I'm hearing similar annecdotes from locals (here) but I'm about 3.5hrs drive further south... but they are saying they didn't get the emergency mobile notifiications...(EDIT) or if they did, teh disater was already in progress).
Some areas got it quite bad here, but not nearly on the scale of valencia as that's just where it happened to hit the worst 'this time'.
I walked through one of Valencias storm drains when I visited. I thought it was a neat idea to use the drain as a public park when it wasn't in use. I was wrong tho, it seems as if they had decommissioned the storm drain which ran to the north of the city and past the science museum towards the port. It looks as if the city and surrounding area is aware of the threat from rainfall but didn't feel as if having 2 drains was needed? Maybe future plans will recommission the old drain to alleviate the pressure on the current storm drain south of the city?
Edit: the old storm drain is full of infrastructure. So I don't they'll ever re use it.
heading east along the coast has hundreds of acres of greenhouses and also mango and avocado plantations, all of which take huge amounts of water.
The ground all around is completely parched.
They call it plastic city... fun fact, it was used partly for the the intro to Bladerunner 2049, with a bit of digital enhancement, of course!
from 1min40 seconds on this clip:
Here's an article about it..
They call it plastic city…
I've only ever heard it called Sea of Plastic but it's the same principle. It's visible from space!
In addition to the water usage, it seems widely acknowledged that it's the epicentre of a whole load of undocumented migrant workers.
It’s visible from space!
Yup.. at first glance the white bits on the map look like cities/towns, but if you zoom in on google maps/earth, they are industrial size poly-tunnel/greenhouses..right on the edge of the Sierra Nevada...the only official desert in Europe 🙁
Miles and miles of them
Seen a few ppl on twitter mention the removal of dams might have made things worse
I'm not sure it would have made loads if difference as reports say it was a years worth of rain in 8 hours.
the news footage, albeit in an urban context, is eerily familiar to anyone who remembers the images of the Biescas tragedy in the 90's where heavy rainfall and a poorly sited campsite (flouting planning regs) resulted in 80 odd campers drowning in their caravans or getting swept away down river.
Don’t let this put you off driving your kids to school each day or jetting the family off a couple of times a year.
Aren’t you driving around in a big old diesel van? Just another lifestyle choice.
Anyone local know what it's like (in terms of weather) around the Calpe area?
Some friends are going out in a couple of days, cycling holiday (booked ages ago) and are looking with concern at weather forecasts, proximity to Valencia etc. I mean, the flight is still going to Alicante, there's been nothing from the airline or their accommodation to say "don't travel" but they'd rather not be stuck in a hotel while it chucks it down for a week...
I've seen a couple of variations on weather forecasts but no weather warnings...
Another aspect to consider is that the locals need tourists and their revenue but it's a bad time right now
It depends on location but if it's anywhere near the affected areas I'd cancel and go later in the year.
Brighter start to the day today but we can't count any chickens yet, the rain storms form incredibly quickly. The nearby coastal villages suffered badly yesterday, motorways closed and the railway line damaged between Tarragona and the south.
Pretty sure Calpe is unaffected, and if you're flying in to Alicante you shouldn't have any issues. I'd go.
FWIW this Friday/Saturday I'm doing an ultramarathon starting in a village just outside Benidorm (so pretty close to Calpe), the organisers have sent out an email telling us the race is going ahead and hasn't been affected by the rain. They have, however, offered a free deferral or 100% refund to anyone in the Valencia area that is unable to attend.
Forecast is for a bit of light rain on Saturday:
https://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/prediccion/municipios/benidorm-id03031
They are not all very well maintained and have a lot of debris and vegetation growing in them which won’t help.
Saw one being scoured last time i was on the mainland, big storm up in the mountains and we saw an entire tree coming down the drain in a huge pile of mud, rocks and debris. It was still upright, and (at the time) probably alive.
20+ degrees and bright sunshine where we were.
Quite sobering watching it go down the hillside towards the coast. And the volume of water following it.
Aren’t you driving around in a big old diesel van? Just another lifestyle choice.
Yes, but in two years the van has covered less than ~26,000km... 16,500 miles. I know some people covering 25 miles each way to drop their kids off at school. That alone is >9,000 miles a year.
Not flown in the last five years, either. Last week we took the train from Munich to London, despite flying being a much quicker and 400€ cheaper option.
I've family who choose to fly up to ten return trips a year... Half of those long haul (she lives in Oz and thinks nothing of a trip to the Maldives to look at sharks which I personally find ironic given the dangers the Maldives faces due to rising sea levels bought on, in part, by the ever increasing normality of flying around the globe).
I just arrived, denia area, its hot and sunny down here. Sea is c20 degrees so OK for paddling. I know the affected valencia areas well and the hostility is the lack of warning when they knew it was coming, hence the fatality count.
To put the flood level in perspective the water rose to the level of overhead gantries on the motorway, drivers heading into valencia on motorway were driving towards the problem without knowing.
Climate change is real, its 40 degrees most summer now, it used to be just a few 40 degree days. Winters used to be cool, warm in the sun, now it's t shirt and shorts weather most winter.
Yeah it's nice here right now, near Mojacar... But in July August it's just unbearably hot.. No exaggeration, you'd have to be insane to sunbathe unless first thing in the morning or at sundown. I love a bit of sun but there is a limit!
I've been struggling with the holiday flights thing for a few years. Flew over to France earlier this year, my previous flights being a return to Barra 6 years ago. I have friends who've been out to Mallorca 3 times this year, a couple of others went to Calpe and now I've been invited to join a Mallorca group next April. In my head I just can't disassociate the carbon impact of the flights from the devastation we're seeing. I'm not exactly super-concious of my environmental impact otherwise, so already feel like a bit of a hypocrite. Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I'll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?
My two hour each way, daily commute is via bus and subway. My wife has a car, but it's barely out of the driveway nowadays unless it's to go for groceries or taking her oldies to the doctor. If I need to go anywhere, it's either bus or bike. We put out one landfill rubbish bag per month, everything else is recycled. That's how I justify our once every year or two holiday flights.
C. 😉
Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I’ll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?
Flights is a really difficult one. Aviation is very definitely doing a whole load of greenwashing, especially with crap like "sustainable aviation fuels" - although equally, they do make efforts to be as fuel-efficient as possible cos ultimately, it costs them less money!
Successive Governments have incentivised flying, Spain itself is offering (or certainly has offered in the past) extremely low landing fees for their more out of the way airports in a bid to encourage tourism. They now seem to be reaping the whirlwind of that in the "Tourists Go Home" protests across parts of the Canaries and Balearics in particular.
On the one hand, I think "well the plane is flying there anyway, whether I'm on it or not". That pollution is happening, regardless of my actions. Obviously if I do book onto it, that's validating the airline's decision to operate that flight in the first place and if no-one booked onto it (and if that pattern was repeated across Europe) then there might be fewer flights overall eventually.
Or alternatively, airlines will do some more aggressive marketing and cost-cutting and if they're offering a return flight to Spain for £30....
Ultimately, it needs addressing at national and international policy level. France for example have done some good work in banning domestic flights where there is an equivalent train journey in <3hrs. France however has an excellent network of high-speed rail, reliable and cheap. The UK has none of that which brings us back to successive UK governments messing things up.
I too have been struggling to square this circle. Holidayed in Cornwall this year, but drove down - we couldn't have contemplated going by train because of a) the cost for four plus a dog, b) the amount of stuff we took, c) poor transport links from where we live meant going into and across London and coming back out again.
Last year was a week north of Aberdeen (Newburgh, if you know it) and we did go by train, but it was just MrsDoor and me. Flying would have been a quarter of the price and ten times quicker.
I turned down the option of going to Thailand for a family wedding in March. Bloody long way to go for a wedding IMO, but I'm one of only a few who have said no. The rest of the family are going. Makes me look like a right fun sponge.
Friends and relatives are flying all over the world at the drop of a hat (neighbours on each side are currently in Tobago and Egypt respectively), and many also fly within Britain because of the convenience, while many work colleagues go on cruises. I decided a while ago not to start the obvious conversation with them, as it has Brexit-like potential to polarise people, and who am I to tell somebody else how to spend their money. But one look at FR24 to see how many flights are in the air at any one time (13000+rn) makes me wonder whether I'm being a bit evangelical while everybody else is flying off to exotic places and having a ball. Horsehair shirts are not for me.
I try to do my bit locally, but is it enough, or are we all doomed regardless? I watch US citizens running around in their massive pickups (bestselling Ford Ranger is 22mpg) and then see the devastating floods there, and worldwide, and, while I have empathy for them, I also think that they're not really helping the situation. Obviously I'm not putting climate change causality at the door of the US here.
We can't ignore the fact that invariably climate change often hits the hardest those who are not really net contributors too.
According to a BBC article I read, aviation is responsible for about 2% of global carbon emissions.
Presumably that 2% must include things like the super rich using private jets every day, the normal rich using private jets or first class flights very often, politicians and business people going on regular "business trips" that aren't really necessary, freight ultimately heading to consumers who probably haven't considered the carbon cost of the products they are buying, whole industries like elite sport and music that involve lots of air travel etc etc.
So if you're just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.
Edit - I think I also read that going meat free some days per week is one of the most impactful thing an individual can do.
Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle?
Also personally struggling. I've actually flown twice in the last 21 years, the second time this Easter. MrsMC is keen we travel/fly more now the kids are grown up and before we are "too" old (her disability may colour her view) but I'm ambivalent at best, there aren't many places I think "I must see" abroad when there's so much I want to see in the UK first. This is causing some tension, I'll be honest.
That said, me taking a stand and refusing to fly means **** all when the vast majority of carbon emissions are generated by corporations, not individuals. One trip by air a year is enough for me and my conscience though.
I watch US citizens running around in their massive pickups
It's easy to pick up on that but what we in the UK don't get is that apparently more than half of US "roads" are not tarmacked. Yes, a big 22mpg pick up seems crazy to us, but if you've got a 1-2 hour gravel drive to your nearest big town to do a big shop, an i10 is going to struggle.
Air travel is too cheap, yesterday manchester to alicante was 35 quid via easyjet, ryanair was 25 quid same trip. Plane was half full.
I fly twice a year, I know some people who fly 10-20 times, just for holidays, ie, completely unnecessary. If you were taxed on a progressively higher scale the more flights you took, you may be nudged into different behaviour.
Yeah it’s nice here right now, near Mojacar… But in July August it’s just unbearably hot.. No exaggeration, you’d have to be insane to sunbathe unless first thing in the morning or at sundown. I love a bit of sun but there is a limit!
Mmmmm Badgers 🙂
Go on admit it you thought you were booking for Majorca 🙂
I’m on a lot of Spanish Facebook groups ,heres a pic of the water level on one road from the Spanish Police on the N332 group 🙁
So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.
Maybe that's the perspective I need.
So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.
Absolute nonsense it’s the overwhelming contributor. You may like a nice summer holiday or two to Spain but take responsibility for your own actions rather than think it’s that other bloke.
or maybe start a new thread to calculate personal emmissions..
or maybe start a new thread to calculate personal emmissions..
You really don't wan't to use the bathroom after me if I've had a few beers and a donner the night before.
@tonyf1 my logic makes sense to me. The few people who fly loads are going to have a bigger impact than normal people going on occasional holidays. But if you've got stats that disprove it then I'm open to being proved wrong.
I haven't been on a plane for nearly a decade by the way. Why so quick to judge? You don't have to answer.
Possibly, but as someone above said, after prolonged dry spells, several years in this case, the regular ground becomes pretty much rock solid, so when it does rain hard, the water isn’t absorbed into the ground… It all just runs downhill on the surface…hopefully into strategically built storm drains, but if they are obstructed, they overflow.
Similar things happened here in the U.K., a flood destroyed much of Lynton and Lynmouth, and there was Boscastle, in both cases a static storm dumped several months worth of rain onto bogs on the high ground that had been drained for grazing, etc, and the water tore through both towns in a manner similar to Valencia, but on nothing like the scale. In all instances, human interference with the local environment contributed to the flooding and destruction.
Interesting article on the been
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8xy03zk44o
Factor in corruption and the recovery will be equally as complicated and unsatisfactory.
It’s easy to pick up on that but what we in the UK don’t get is that apparently more than half of US “roads” are not tarmacked. Yes, a big 22mpg pick up seems crazy to us, but if you’ve got a 1-2 hour gravel drive to your nearest big town to do a big shop, an i10 is going to struggle.
And only about 3% of the population use those untarmacked roads with any regularity.
3% of the US population needing a pickup/4x4 isn't the problem.
It's Chad and all his bros doing their solo daily drive from Sunnyvale to downtown San Jose in a 5.7 litre V8.
Also, from what i can remember, freight makes up less than 10% of global flights and military about 5%. The rest is fairly evenly split between commercial (airlines/holiday makers etc), private (little private planes) and then the "for hire" type stuff. The emissions per sector, i've no idea, as the typical plane size varies massively between each!
But again, the "important" stuff, moving goods and services around isn't the (major) issue with aviation. (Though it still needs to be minimised).
It's Chad and his bros (and their families) flying off to Cancun or where ever twice a year.
I lived in the Murcia region for around 20 years in a small mountain village.
There was absolutely no provision for rainwater control.The only drains were for sewage.Rain that fell collected in the streets,and ended up flowing in the same direction and all the flows coming together.
Somewhere down the valley is going to get the brunt of all these flows.And this in an area that actually needs water for agriculture yet it is allowed to flow away.At the moment here almond trees that are dead or dying are being pulled out because of the lack of water.
Murcias a funny one thou,
, rainfall in Murcia is very irregular, with an average of only 300 millimetres per year and a dry period that can last for up to 10 months of the year: “We have a Mediterranean climate where it is normal to experience a summer drought, but we have an extreme case. It should rain in autumn, spring and winter, but the peculiarity of our area is that this is not the case.”
This should, in theory, cause massive problems for Murcia, a Region that – somewhat conversely it may seem – has one of the largest and most productive fruit and vegetable agriculture industries in the country.
But it is exactly this consistent lack of rainfall that means Murcia is so well placed to deal with drought, and not suffer the consequences.
“Our water use is much higher than what we have naturally, and we have been without water for a long time because there was no water in the reservoirs, how have we always overcome this without restrictions? Because of desalinated water and water treatment plants,”
Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I’ll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?
I have not read all the replies to this
For me the key thing is to be accountable for your actions and to take what steps you reasonably can but without wearing a hair shirt. Its the travel thats as much the issue as the type of travel tho trains are generally better. One flight every few years is less damaging than several a year.
My flights to Canada this year probably had a carbon footprint similar to what I have saved in a year or two of not having a car to put it in perspective. I'm going to go to NZ next year - that will wipe out several years of savings. However thats the only long haul flights I have taken since a kid ( unless a couple of trips to the canaries count?) and I won't take any more. My last european trip was to the netherlands - car to newcastle and ferry over the north sea.
So be aware of your actions, be accountable for them. Minimise impacts where you can without impacting excessively on your quality of life. The things you do personally are a small part compared to the big things we do as a nations
There is certainly a part of me that now thinks "eff it - no one really cares and its all fubar now anyway" Not a helpful attitude.
apologies
Interesting article from the Dutch MetOffice (KNMI) explaining the high precipitation rates associated with this flood (Google translate is your friend). Don't forget that human behaviour, like not maintaining storm drains, has an influence here too.
https://www.knmi.nl/over-het-knmi/nieuws/waarom-viel-er-de-afgelopen-dagen-zoveel-regen-in-spanje
Don’t forget that human behaviour, like not maintaining storm drains, has an influence here too.
This seems to be a bit of a target for some of the upset, according to a colleague who lives nearby. Lots of discussion around lack of maintenance of storm drain systems, lack of focus on keeping nature based solutions such as trees and ground cover to prevent the hard, dry surface which promotes run-off, and a *lot* of development for decades in areas both prone to flooding or which contribute to flooding....
Valencia is a great example of what can go wrong if you play with nature, the living embodiment of flip around and find out
After the flood in 1957 they decided to re-route the river Turia around the city. There's lots of videos online about this and the wonderful park they constructed along the river's old course. Most of those videos will tell you how great it was and how radical. I guess there will be new vids coming out soon with a very different perspective.
Some interesting commentary here from an engineering perspective
Valencia is a great example of what can go wrong if you play with nature, the living embodiment of flip around and find out
Arguably it didn't go wrong - it diverted the flood waters from the centre, which would have been even worse. Interesting article, though - I hadn't considered the impact of cars (literally) when it comes to flood deaths.
With flooding of this type (flash flood/pluvial) the suspended materials, i.e. crap floating in the water, can be anything from fence panels, toys to cars, trucks, trees, cows etc
The other thing not generally appreciated is the speed at which the water moves - it's very fast! For normal river flooding it's usually a slow creep of rising water overs days until the water overtops the defences.
With flooding of this type (flash flood/pluvial) the suspended materials, i.e. crap floating in the water, can be anything from fence panels, toys to cars, trucks, trees, cows etc
Yeah, it was clear there is a lot of suspended material, but I never considered that impact from the cars themselves was one of the principal causes of death - I assumed it was people getting trapped in spaces and drowning.
I never considered that impact from the cars themselves was one of the principal causes of death
Cars are hugely problematic in flood situations. One stranded car can block a road that's needed for evacuation or for emergency access and they can get stranded ridiculously easily. Most people assume cars are far safer than they actually are but it only takes a foot of water to float most cars. And the 4x4 things that actually are capable of fording deeper than that (surprisingly few) are almost always driven by people who don't have that experience anyway. Also easy to get trapped in them, the water pressure outside will hold the doors shut and electric windows almost always fail at the first hint of water in them.
And the aftermath - as seen in Valencia - is a lot of expensive, hard-to-shift debris, cars piled on top of one another. That sort of weight being swept along in a flood is pretty lethal to anything in its path too. You've basically created a flood with hundreds of 2-ton floating boulders in it.
flood waters from the centre
it was also designed to minimise the impact of flooding on the arable land/ rice fields around the city too.
As well as cars, the suspended material in the flood water will include a lot of topsoil washed from farm land so that will impact agriculture.
It shows we are putting too much 'non-permeable' materials down everywhere. Valencia was shocking at the speed - literally went from no water, to a deep torrent in 30-45 minutes. We've got to stop building with materials that aren't permitting natural soak-away.
no water, to a deep torrent in 30-45 minuteS
Yeah, my sister lives c30lm south of Valencia- she drove into work there were just warnings of “heavy rainfall”. She parked in an underground metro car park and couldn’t get back to it.
Luckily her mother in law still lives in the city so she could stay there for a couple of days and could get back to her car.
A couple of my brother in law’s siblings live in the outlying areas. They’ve been cut off as bridges to their villages have been destroyed.
And the aftermath – as seen in Valencia – is a lot of expensive, hard-to-shift debris, cars piled on top of one another. That sort of weight being swept along in a flood is pretty lethal to anything in its path too. You’ve basically created a flood with hundreds of 2-ton floating boulders in it.
Yeah, just (perhaps naively) assumed that people wouldn't actually get in the way of that!
It shows we are putting too much ‘non-permeable’ materials down everywhere.
Realistically nothing is going to absorb that amount of water, in that short a time. Add in near-drought conditions for the past few years, and absorption isn't an option.
There's a heavy rain warning for the Calpe / Altea area about 120km south of Valencia now. (07 Nov).
My rain app is showing some rain there but much heavier over parts of the Med just east of Spain. Missing out Mallorca for the moment though.
My Spanish bro in law is In the military in Spain, he's only just been told that he'll be mobilised to help next week - word on the street is that theres still 2000+ people missing in Valencia. No idea how true that is or if it's just social media murmurs but cirtainly explains the mud throwing earlier this week. But that number was apparently reported by some news agencies (not in Spain). It cirtainly seems like the national and local governments in Spain are trying to down play the lack of response.
We’ve got to stop building with materials that aren’t permitting natural soak-away.
I don't think a soak away would have worked when there's a year's worth of rain in 24 hrs. Valencia development had rerouted a couple of natural rivers and flood routes away from built up areas - these were absolutely overrun and water will always find the quickest way down. It's a bit like building on a flood plain and then blaming the tarmac.
On a related note, anyone else remember those insane BMX videos of Ruben Alcantara riding the storm drains around Malaga on a BMX?
