You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.
That's prejudiced against furries.
I’m with you on contracting names but calling anybody sir can get in the sea. I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.
Honestly, I feel the same of any title or honorific. Why do we need "Mr." in 2023, what purpose does it serve? It feels like a throwback to when you'd address John Smith's little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.
@cougar you’re usually good at spotting a shibboleth.
My powers are severely diminished since Delilah cut my hair, or something.
The OP's account is a couple of years old so if it is then they've invested in it.
At this point I'm going with "misguided" rather than "trolling." Which, y'know, is fine, it's good to learn things and that's what they said they wanted to do.
The Finns have had this one sorted from the get-go as they don't have seperate he/she pronouns, just 'han' for both.
So the simple solution is we all learn and adopt Finnish as our primary language.
I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.
A friend of mine (high flying London barrister at the time) was chatting with him at some do.... and then asked him which of his amazing roles he was most proud of... Gandalf or Magneto... he just ended the conversation by turning away and engaging with someone else instead. She's very cheeky though... always cracks me up.
Yes, my friend being threatened with being fired did happen.
Threatened is a broad term. People on both sides of the fence manage to make a mess of this; almost invariably people objecting to people's preference of pro-nouns are making an issue from nothing (or don't understand what a pronoun) is as you've done in the opening post.
However my wife has fallen foul of the "guys" problem before.
She runs a team with 4 men and one trans woman. She addressed an email bollocking them for being idiots, by starting with "Guys, ...". The woman came back to her objecting to the language. My wife got in a terrible state but went back, apologised if it had caused offence but explained (100% truthfully) she used the terminology in a gender neutral sense and had always done so even when she previously ran a team of all women. Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives. No HR people were hurt in the process.
Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives.
Which is exactly how normal, rational people should interact.
As I've said many times, with any demographic it's a vocal minority who give the rest a bad name. Some people simply have a chip on their shoulder. For every group of feminists there's a TERF; for every group of vegans there's a PETA activist; for every group of Christians there's the absolute roaster with a PA system and hi-vis jacket saying "EVANGELIST" on the back who I walked past in Manchester city centre the other day. It's counterproductive because all it does if piss people off and fuel "Muslims are banning Christmas" style rhetoric.
most people will understand that it’s all new to some folk and will appreciate you making an effort. So long as you’re not deliberately misgendering or deadnaming someone, you should be OK.
I work with a Steven. That’s his name, not Steve or Ste (or Dave, or Susan). He hates his name being contracted. What would you do if you worked with him and said “hey Steve”? Would you go “oops, sorry” and try harder to get their name correct next time? Or would you deliberately call him Steve because that’s what you want to call him and he should get over it?
This.
but the emphasis on pronouns puzzles me as 99% of the time, pronouns are used to talk about somebody, not to somebody, so the person referred to doesn’t hear them.
Probably true (well, not the 99% bit, that's clearly a made up statistic) - but it is important to get it right even when not there. Firstly - because it creates a habit, for you and the listeners; secondly because it is just respectful. I mean you wouldn't call Susan from accounts ugly fat Susan from accounts whether she hears it or not.
Firstly – because it creates a habit
That's a really insightful point, Jon.
People complaining about it being new or strange or different or against "established grammar" - well, perhaps, but it won't be after a little while if they practice.
Posting on STW I try to use "they" etc when referring to posters I don't know, unless they have a fairly obvious alias like "DaveRides". It's good practice, it builds habit and helps unlearn conditioning. Gender issues and pronouns aside, I have no idea whether a poster is female and it's wrong to just assume.
There's an old logic puzzle: "A man goes to see the doctor. The man is the doctor's son, but the doctor is not the man's father. How?"
Is the OP the same chat bot-esque troll that was doing the rounds before?
I suspect it's a former inhabitant. Dormant account for a few years that suddenly springs into action. Obvious troll is obvious
It feels like a throwback to when you’d address John Smith’s little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.
Slight thread hijack but, for a reason I can't remember, last week I was looking at the order of succession page on the royal family website, and there they still refer Beatrice and Eugenie, Randy Andy and Fergie's daughters, as Mrs Whatever Their Husband's Name Is. They're 9th and 11th in line to the throne, but still (partially) defined by who their husband is.
https://www.royal.uk/succession
I mean, I know the royals aren't the most progressive organisation, but this still surprised me.
Slight thread hijack but, for a reason I can’t remember, last week I was looking at the order of succession page on the royal family website, and there they still refer Beatrice and Eugenie, Randy Andy and Fergie’s daughters, as Mrs Whatever Their Husband’s Name Is. They’re 9th and 11th in line to the throne, but still (partially) defined by who their husband is.
Still only a small minority that don't change their same when they get married? And the side point that their title is defined by being married at all.
And avoids weirdness over whether to call themselves Mrs Windor, or Mrs Kent,
Princess Mícheal of Kent?
Mícheal
Michael FFS
Still only a small minority that don’t change their same when they get married?
Click the link. The poster is referring to titles like...
"Mrs. Jack Brooksbank"
"Mrs. Michael Tindall"
It would be a lot easier if they/them was used for everyone
I guess. There's no gender in Turkish (contrast with Indo-European languages), not even "he" and "she", and they seem to manage okay (worked there for a bit geological aeons ago).
Where I work now it's common for people to indicate pronouns in email sigs. I remarked to a young person that it could seem a little odd, a bloke from Osset who's built like a brickie saying he wants to be referred to as "he". I mean okay, sure... To be told and I think rightly that if it was only people with cause to consider how they wish to be gendered who were to indicate a preference, i.e. by exception, this would be the opposite of inclusive. So I'm now all for it, on the basis being nice shouldn't be a big deal. Though I don't yet do it myself.
Everyone is spelling "guys" but there's me using, and saying, "guyz".
Not sure your usage is my usage....
Posting on STW I try to use “they” etc when referring to posters I don’t know, unless they have a fairly obvious alias like “DaveRides”
Careful with that. When I was a you Air Cadet, we nicknamed a girl Dave as someone said she looked like Dave Gilmour from Pink Floyd (she didn't actually look anything like him). This was about 25 years ago. A couple of year back I saw her being interviewed on TV in her role as an officer in the Navy, they put called her Dave in the interview (explaining to the viewers it was her nickname)
Where I work now it’s common for people to indicate pronouns in email sigs.
i’m never sure if this is a show of support or act of defiance
So I’m now all for it, on the basis being nice shouldn’t be a big deal. Though I don’t yet do it myself.
Do it, today. Come and join us.
theotherjonv (he/his/him)
A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’.
I want to say that this didn’t happen so hard that it unhappened things that did. If it is in fact true and not some transphobic hate speech passed on to you third-hand from the Daily Express then it’s bloody stupid.
She's an overachieving Texan with an IQ of 160 who contracts with a High Street bank at their HQ, and who only answers to the Board. She doesn't suffer fool gladly, and with an IQ of 160, pretty much everybody else in the room is a fool. Let's just say she ruffles ALL the feathers, and as such, I think some people grab every opportunity they can to try and trip her up, especially when they know that nobody can argue that 'they're in the right'. She'll end up being a trophy dismisal for someone in the HR Dept (who appear to be a law unto themselves).
But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.
Does that happen to you a lot?
In the past not so much, but recently more so.
I've been a freelancer in the Creative Industries for nearly 30 years, and I've worked with countless men (I'm assuming) who wear make-up, high heels, blouses, pear necklaces, UGG boots, and walk around with patent leather handbags. All of whom appeared to be straight & happily married. People would just shrug their shoulders and say "that's just Jim", or "what is he like?" with a wry smile. Most of the time people don't want to lift that lid, so nobody really asked what they had got going on, and would just tip-toe around them trying to pretend everything was normal. I've also worked with a fair few whom you would never know were gay or transexual. Like 'one of the lads' whom nobody looked at twice. But then he sadly passed, and at the funeral his boyfriend got up and gave the Eulogy. There were a few slack jaws and glances being exchanged that day!
In a professional environment, in days gone by, nobody really got their knickers in a twist about misgendering because, TBH, I think the individuals involved quite liked the 'mystique' and attention that went with it. A couple of them would flit in and out of the campest accent you've ever heard, when it suited them to do so. Some clients loved it so it would get turned up to 11 for them. It was to some extent client-pleasing theatre, because apparently a straight man can't be as creative as a gay man.
The misgendering thing didn't really become an issue until I became an Industry Mentor and a Senior Lecturer and I was exposed to large numbers of millennials. They were very vocal and entitled compared to the old school 'individuals' I had worked with in the past. Literally there was what came before the 2008 admission and what came after 2008, and it was as clear as night & day. The most common theory amongst the Lecturers was that something had changed cirriculum-wise around the time that these kids were progressing through primary school and/or high school, and that the admission of 2008 was simply the first wave of a 'new breed'.
Needless to say, the Universities whose No.1 priority is to be as perceived as being progressive and whiter than white, couldn't embrace equality and - what some refer to as 'wokeness' - hard enough. The staff were absolutely petrified that there would even be the slightest unsubstantiated accusation or passing vexatious comment that they were a bigot, as that would bring their career to a dead stop. It got to the point were lecturers couldn't be around students on their own and there had to be another (any) staff member there as a witness, especially when work product was being marked, because the students weren't above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course. We didn't have any of these issues with the Swiss, Polish, Chinese, ****stani or Finnish students - who all looked at the domestic students incredulously.
Now I see the product of those years working in the industry, and the bosses don't know what to do with them. Mostly they pander to them, so the desk chairs get reused elsewhere and they're replaced with the preferred bean bags. Lunch hours are spent playing games on 'the Switch' at their desks, and they'll spend 10 minutes playing rock/paper/scissors before they decide who's going to make the coffee, before they both change into their little barista outfits and both make the coffee anyway, making the 10 minutes of rock/peper/scissors totally redundant. They count down how many 'sleeps' until Greggs release this years Festive Bakes, and they co-ordinate with their friends via Social Media to figure out which branches will have them first and they'll all meet up and queue together on the respective morning. Different breed.
On the plus side, for the studios themselves, the millenials consider any time spent in front of a computer as 'play time' (they can't believe they're getting paid to work a computer), so they'll happy pull a 16 hour shift and only get paid for the first 8. That's the way the industry has always worked. If studios had to pay staff for every hour they worked, they would all go bust in the first month.
When you ask the studio owners about the millennials' backgrounds – are they single, are they shacked up with their girlfriends/boyfriends, do they still live at home with their parents? The owners don't know because they're too afraid to broach that subject. In one studio, the bosses had a sweepstake going because one of the lads (?) had mentioned his partners name was 'Nic' and they couldn't, for the life of them, figure out if it was Nicola or Nicholas.
As a freelance contractor, if I screw-up and misgender/offend them, ultimately it's the studio bosses who get it in the neck. It's their PLC that will get sued. And there's no reasonable "it's OK, how were you to know? Please just try your best to call me Miss from now on" that's just wishful thinking. It's full-on crying, toys out the pram, 6 month paid sick leave due to the 'stress' and the full suite of Social Media coverage amongst their friends. Fathers turning up at the respective studio threatening legal action etc.
So yes, it does happen, and increasingly so. And you have to be REALLY careful. I've come to recognise that a 'lad' with perfectly threaded eyebrows or manicured/lacquered nails is a warning sign.
i’m never sure if this is a show of support or act of defiance
99% of people do it out of support, it's just normalizing it.
I remarked to a young person that it could seem a little odd, a bloke from Osset who’s built like a brickie saying he wants to be referred to as “he”. I mean okay, sure…
The issue there is they might be the one in however many who don't want to be a "he". And then as you found, would probably not want to draw further attention to it by being the only person in the world who had to put she/her on her e-mail when the skinny kid who was re-assigned at 14 gets zero queries about it.
[edit] crossed posts with the OP.
And I'm not even sure where to start ripping into it.
She’s an overachieving Texan with an IQ of 160
OT but I don't know the IQ of anyone I work with, or that of any of my friends. Do they put it in their signature along with pronouns? 😀
I guess. There’s no gender in Turkish (contrast with Indo-European languages), not even “he” and “she”, and they seem to manage okay (worked there for a bit geological aeons ago).
Oh wow. That's interesting. Isn't there some other term they use, which is akin to 'brother' and which to some extent signifies pecking order? Or is that some other culture I'm thinking off?
I had a good friend that worked there for a spell and he said they had a very interesting culture. Very much rooted in hospitality, community and looking out for each other. I love the fact that they nurture the stray cat population!
OT but I don’t know the IQ of anyone I work with, or that of any of my friends. Do they put it in their signature along with pronouns? 😀
I asked her once. She said 160ish. But I'm still stupid - I still make lots of stupid mistakes...
rightly or wrongly anyone who tells me their IQ as a way to impress me; goes into a category in my head . It isn’t labelled “super smart people that I’d like to get to know better”
But then he sadly passed, and at the funeral his boyfriend got up and gave the Eulogy. There were a few slack jaws and glances being exchanged that day!
What a depressing story.
When you ask the studio owners about the millennials’ backgrounds – are they single, are they shacked up with their girlfriends/boyfriends, do they still live at home with their parents? The owners don’t know because they’re too afraid to broach that subject.
If this is true, it sounds like little has changed.
In one studio, the bosses had a sweepstake going because one of the lads (?) had mentioned his partners name was ‘Nic’ and they couldn’t, for the life of them, figure out if it was Nicola or Nicholas.
These "bosses" sound like dicks to me.
rightly or wrongly anyone who tells me their IQ as a way to impress me; goes into a category in my head . It isn’t labelled “super smart people that I’d like to get to know better”
I asked, because sometimes I think she has lived 10 full lives and she's still younger than me. Medical degree, read law, politics etc. etc. I don't even know how many languages she speaks - and it's not just speaking them she was a translator for a spell.
And her daughter, jeez she's going to end up being an astronaut or similar! Different genes in that family!
ok that long post up there is definitely a troll - or maybe GPT-4 testing?
when work product was being marked, because the students weren’t above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course.
While I'm not going to speak for every University (how could I) The University my wife's a prof at deal with this stuff in exactly the same way that every other large organisation do, with policies that are remarkably dull and MOR. You won't be at surprised to hear that the teaching staff range from all the way at one end right-on vegans protesting the rights of endangered wallabies, to a colleague of her's who refuses to engage with students unless they address him as "Professor" or "Sir" and everything in between
By the time it got to "threatening to fail the course", students will have either got really bad marks in several assignments, missed them altogther, or plagiarised so obviously on a number of occasions that they would've had several meetings already, all of a sudden claiming being mis-gendered will mostly be politely ignored.
Needless to say, the Universities whose No.1 priority is to be as perceived as being progressive and whiter than white, couldn’t embrace equality and – what some refer to as ‘wokeness’ – hard enough. The staff were absolutely petrified that there would even be the slightest unsubstantiated accusation or passing vexatious comment that they were a bigot, as that would bring their career to a dead stop. It got to the point were lecturers couldn’t be around students on their own and there had to be another (any) staff member there as a witness, especially when work product was being marked, because the students weren’t above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course. We didn’t have any of these issues with the Swiss, Polish, Chinese, ****stani or Finnish students – who all looked at the domestic students incredulously.
As someone who works in the higher education sector this is utter bullshite of the highest order.
And you have to be REALLY careful.
You do maybe, the rest of meanwhile are just happily getting on with folks just like we always have.
I’ve come to recognise that a ‘lad’ with perfectly threaded eyebrows or manicured/lacquered nails is a warning sign.
Of what, dangerously overspending on facials? A nail bar on their way home? what exactly?
As someone who works in the higher education sector this is utter bullshite of the highest order.
So you've never been advised to never be in a room alone with a student(s), and you haven't been instructed to implement the square root rule?
When you ask the studio owners about the millennials’ backgrounds
are you sure that they are millennials? there are people in the workforce who are too young to be millennials.
work product
when did essays/assignments start getting called “work product?
i’m convinced that this is purely a windup.
I think this is a useful piece on why putting pronouns in email signatures etc can be a good idea:
I'll admit I have inconsistent implementation of it. I should probably fix that. If I'm reticent to say she/her because I don't feel like drawing attention to my femaleness in some settings, then I imagine people with they/them pronouns would feel even more reticent.
Let’s just say she ruffles ALL the feathers,
So not that intelligent then after all? 😉
They were very vocal and entitled compared to the old school ‘individuals’ I had worked with in the past.
Everyone's entitled - to some things, many in fact. I think when you use that word you really mean 'over-entitled'. But like many things there is an explicit value judgement there. You are suggesting that there is a level of entitlement that everyone's.. entitled to.. but no more. Which is reasonable. But who sets that level? Can it change?
Of course it can. It has changed radically over the centuries, and always for the better. And most of the time I think the establishment opposed this entitlement, because the establishment is old, established, and doesn't like change. This is always how it has been. In fact, young people doing things differently and annoying older people is, ironically, one of the oldest constants in recorded history.
On the subject of pronouns specifically, this problem is largely to do with our language, as mentioned above. We only have two genders in our language, which means we need to fit everyone into those two groups. If we had three, like some languages do, then we would not resist that at all. When asked 'what are you?' those of us with a non-binary identity would have a ready answer and there would be no issue. Maybe we'd even have three sets of toilets everywhere. Fascinating how language can dictate thought.
meal_time_six is obviously a troll. I was going to dissect that huge diatribe line by line but gave up. You are the problem not them.
I work in an office with a large % of millennials and younger. I have encountered none of the things your on about.
when did essays/assignments start getting called “work product?
i’m convinced that this is purely a windup.
There were no essays or assignments on the courses that I taught, apart from the final year Atelier and the Dissertation itself.
In academic verbiage, the 'work product' is technically described as evidence supporting the 'formative' and 'somethingive' assessments.
I have no useful contribution to make! Whoop!
I work in an office with a large % of millennials and younger. I have encountered none of the things your on about.
I've never worked in an office, so I have no experience of what that must like or how millennials present in those environments.
How many studios have you worked in?
Millennial here, there are people working legally in my office that I’m old enough to be the parent of.
Not sure I want to get into this, but to clear one simple thing up.
In any educational setting, not being alone with a student (especially one not of your own gender) is nothing at all to do with 'woke-ism', but is just good old-fashioned proper safeguarding practice.
FWIW, I've been teaching 25 years, and have always called groups of mixed-gender students "folks" (mainly because the more prevalent 'guys' just never sat right with me). Who knew I was so far ahead of my time!
The Finns have had this one sorted from the get-go as they don’t have seperate he/she pronouns, just ‘han’ for both.
So the simple solution is we all learn and adopt Finnish as our primary language.
Haha! The Finns yes.
I had a Finnish student, Varpu, that would just get up halfway through a lecture and walk out in front of everyone. When I asked one of my fellow lecturers about it, he said don't worry about it, it's not you, she just does that with everyone. She's decided she's heard enough. All the Finns do it."
And then he said "Just count your blessings that she doesn't start on the dead baby jokes". Apparently dead baby jokes are an art form to the Finns. And apparently they make no sense to anybody but the Finns.
That's about all I know about the Finns. That and the fact that they produce the finest rifles (Sako/Tikka), ammunition (Lapua, Vihtavuori) and snipers (Simo Häyhä) in the world. You certainly don't want to pick a fight with those guys!
How many studios have you worked in?
I work in TV studios, there's a fair few of us on here working across the range of shows from Natural History docs to entertainment.
And thankfully the number of people self identifying as belligerent dinosaurs is very low (he exists on my current location, and always picks a fight over the gender neutral toilets being closer to the gallery than the men's).
they both change into their little barista outfits and both make the coffee anyway, making the 10 minutes of rock/peper/scissors totally redundant. They count down how many ‘sleeps’ until Greggs release this years Festive Bakes, and they co-ordinate with their friends via Social Media to figure out which branches will have them first and they’ll all meet up and queue together on the respective morning.
This is brilliant, honestly. If they remade The Rise And Fall of Reggie Perrin, this could be the six minute comic monologue Reggie delivers in the middle of a team meeting as he finally detaches from reality, his horrified colleagues looking on in silence.
If meal_team_six is real, he (and I think we can be sure it's a he) should go into comedy.
However I do really like the idea of an Angry Jacket, and I might designate one for this task.
In academic verbiage, the ‘work product’ is technically described as evidence supporting the ‘formative’ and ‘somethingive’ assessments.
thanks
Millennial here, there are people working legally in my office that I’m old enough to be the parent of.
i’m not sure if that’s just millennial whinging, of if you’re sharing information.
I think there might be something in the GPT-4 theory.
I work in TV studios, there’s a fair few of us on here working across the range of shows from Natural History docs to entertainment.
Oh man that's a tough gig. I worked in a studio that had a production facet and I couldn't believe the amount of kit they required and how long it took to 'ingest' all the footage etc. It didn't matter how much processing power you had on hand, it was never a certainty that you would be able to meet a deadline. At the time you literally couldn't buy an Apple Mac fast enough. And I think that was probably 1080p in those days, never mind 4K/8K like today.
One editor I worked with was pulling together the graphics for a keynote speech, onsite in Brussels, where they kept changing it right up to the last minute, and the poor bastard had a heart attack in the lift, he shrugged it off and then delivered the presentation graphics on time. I don't think he realised that it was a heart attack at the time, or he probably would have sought aid and called it a day.
But in terms of deadline-based pressure, video is up there in a league all its own?
Utmost respect to Editors that job is like black magic.
My Spidey sense tells me this is the clown with the karate club full of £100k earners that could beat up everyone in the UFC
You wouldn't be able to make that sketch today (because it was already made 40 years ago).
As someone who gets called a TERF on a regular basis I have a bit of ambivalence towards all of this.
I do not see it as that hard to try to call people whatever they want.
However I also do not think people should get in trouble for , getting it wrong, or even wanting to stick to their norms.
I think people (on both sides) are a too soft and get offended to easily. One persons offence is not a good enough reason to fire someone (if it happens, well it has happened, but not often).
I do not see it as that hard to try to call people whatever they want.
It can be difficult for some, just show willing and try.
wanting to stick to their norms
What does that mean?
However I also do not think people should get in trouble for , getting it wrong, or even wanting to stick to their norms.
And what if their "norm" is to use racist terms?
It can be difficult for some, just show willing and try.
That is the same point I made, it isn't hard to try, it might be hard to achieve it though....
Sticking to norms means that some people want to use gendered language. I don't mind if they do.
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be "born in the wrong body". Otherwise I'd like to claim I should have been born in Elon Musks body. I don't see any evidence that hormones and surgery can change your bio sex (but I'll defend your right to have that surgery and hormones if you want, it should be a free world). That's my norm, I'll call you whatever pronoun you want. You wear what you want, have sex with who you want. I treat men and women the same so I'm not going to treat anyone any different based on gender or sex. I can pretend that men are women and women are men. I'm happy to do that at work or in places where it is important (most public spaces).
But if my friends ask me to tell my truth, that's what it is. That's my norm.
I still don't have an issue with pronouns, the are all constructed anyway, who cares.
And what if their “norm” is to use racist terms?
Persuade them it is racist and persuade them why racism is wrong/harmful etc.
I wonder how this pronoun and woke business is going to filter into industries like construction.
I was sitting in a Travelodge eating breakfast this morning (crappy work thing) in Manchester. A quick glance around and there is about 40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can't imagine that most of them even know - or care about - what a pronoun is never mind what one they would like to addressed by.
It’s great to include everyone and I’m all for people doing whatever the hell they want as long as it’s not hurting anyone. If referring to someone in a certain way helps make their life easier or better then I’ll do my best to comply with that request. I may unintentionally forget from time to time. I forget names and birthdays already.
I’m just so glad that I personally don’t give a shit what anyone refers to me as. Seems like it’s just adding an extra layer of stress to life.
It would be a lot easier if they/them was used for everyone all the time then no second guessing, no getting anything wrong etc,. and it is what I try to do.
It was perfectly normal for Shakespeare to do that.
I’ve always, in the past, addressed a bunch of people I worked with as ‘morning, guys’, but but now it’s just ‘’mornin’ folks’, and that works for everyone.
As for myself, you can call me anything you want, just don’t call me late for lunch..
Michael FFS
Sorry jondough
Don't Google Finnish dead baby jokes! I did and wish I hadn't, I thought they'd be dark but my god....
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”.
Well, no. You're called a TERF (or are self-identifying as one) because you've had this explained to you multiple times over and you refuse to challenge your own entrenched opinion.
And now you're in danger of derailing the thread. Such as it is.
I wonder how this pronoun and woke business is going to filter into industries like construction.
I was sitting in a Travelodge eating breakfast this morning (crappy work thing) in Manchester. A quick glance around and there is about 40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can’t imagine that most of them even know – or care about – what a pronoun is never mind what one they would like to addressed by.
Go work with them for a day, refer to them all as "she" and "her." Report back here and let us know how much they didn't care once you get out of hospital.
Don’t Google Finnish dead baby jokes! I did and wish I hadn’t,
But you've started so you'll Finnish?
nicko74
Full Member
I really CBA with this woke nonsense, but THISsupernova
Full Member
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE! It’s “couldn’t care less”, you absolute unmentionable. Begone foul fiend!
Well that’s embarrassing. Doh!
David Bowie was woke before anyone even knew what the term meant!
:focal(2183x1455:2184x1456)/ <a class=)
Persuade them it is racist and persuade them why racism is wrong/harmful etc.
But if they don't want to change, they shouldn't get into trouble?
I am called a terf because I have yet to see evidence that you can be “born in the wrong body”
40-50 rough looking men (stubble, in worn work trousers, hoodies and work boots). Obviously all working away doing construction work (I used to be one of them). I can’t imagine that most of them even know – or care about – what a pronoun is
On one hand, I agree that a lot of this discussion is student politics bullshit that doesn't really matter in The Real World. But on the other hand, it's not like all trans (or LGBTQ+, or whatever) people are all upper class, or that all construction workers are inconsiderate cavemen. (I'm not suggesting you are saying this - just that I don't see why the "debate" would be any more or less relevant for construction than paper supplies or motor insurance).
Just ignore the far-Left language police, they're all mad
The simplest of searches, even on singletrack, would have shown that this is a pronoun thread, not the pronoun thread
Maybe the OP was hoping it would endure and become the definite article....
Well, no. You’re called a TERF (or are self-identifying as one) because you’ve had this explained to you multiple times over and you refuse to challenge your own entrenched opinion.
And now you’re in danger of derailing the thread. Such as it is.
Well, luckily only a few people think like you do and the world is waking up to some basic facts.
I hope that pronouns and the whole woke thing will lead to a revolution in how people dress, and present themselves as I agree with the freedom for people to present themselves how they like. I don't think you really understand it Cougar hence the resorting to insult sarcasm and even some implied violence above. You've run out of argument.
It isn't derailing the thread, the topic of pronouns and gender critical types are intrinsically the same.
TINAS - nothing about that article suggest that they were "born in the wrong body" they are born in the body they are born in end of story. They do show a difference from the norm. Is a downs syndrome person born in the wrong body? And nothing in that article shows that hormones and surgery can change those peoples sex.
They don't fit the classic gender binary, but it would be barbaric to treat them with surgery and hormones to "correct" them. As it won't work. They are what they are, lets accept them. The other quoted there seems to accept her own child.
The child’s mother said she could see the transformation starting from the age of five, adding: “I love her however she is. Girl or boy, it makes no difference."
“On the other hand, in the Dominican Republic, the birth of a pseudohermaphrodite is fully accepted and during puberty, the child’s physical transformation into a male is marked by joyous celebration.”
I'm not trans exclusionary, I just have not seen evidence that anyone can be born in the wrong bod or can change bio sex. I'm perfectly happy for adults to have surgery, hormones and challenge our speech and understanding of appearance. its all good. But facts are facts. It doesn't change the rights of people to do what they like.
But if they don’t want to change, they shouldn’t get into trouble?
Depends. using race to refuse service, job etc should be legally enforced, but you cannot legally force someone to change the way they think. That is pretty barbaric. I have never seen any evidence that race (whatever that means, skin colour, origin, I don't think race actually exists right?) correlates with ability in the mental field - ie academic, work etc. Thus there is no logical reason to be racist expect for some form of prejudice/hate. In civilised society it has no place. But in civilised society we have to be tolerant. Otherwise you become a fascist. Some on the left are approaching the fascism we typically see on the right.
Just ignore the far-Left language police, they’re all mad
Come on love, we're only joking.
So using race to refuse service, job etc should be legally enforced, but you cannot legally force someone to change the way they think. That is pretty barbaric.
We were talking about what somebody might say, stop shifting the goalposts.
Well, luckily only a few people think like you do and the world is waking up to some basic facts.
They're... becoming woke?
I’m not trans exclusionary, I just have not seen evidence that anyone can be born in the wrong bod or can change bio sex.
Do you dismiss everything that you don't have first-hand evidence of?
Do you dismiss everything that you don’t have first-hand evidence of?
You are not gonna make an argument for faith are you? This is the basics of the scientific method. Ordered observations of the evidence.
There is no evidence of a biological sex change, you would have to re-write their DNA. every single cell. (I'm not saying it might not be possible in the future)
Not being able to change bio sex should not take anything away from people who want to take hormones and surgery to change their appearance, let them do it. But you cannot force people to believe that a real change in fundamental bio sex has been made. That's some 1984 stuff right there.
The point I am trying to make is that there is no good reason not to respect peoples pro-noun requirements, it is basically easy, but if people muck it up or don't want to, there is no good reason to vilify them either.