[Closed] The pronoun thread

“Yeah the vacancy was been filled”

There thread closed.

The gender neutral version might be:

“Yeah, they’ve hired a they.”

Only if you're illiterate. The answer that any normal functioning human will use is "Yeah, they've hired someone" or "Yeah, the position's been filled"

I've always used "guys" as an all-inclusive, gender-neutral term, even if it contained a hint of irony*. I'm not sure I still would, probably replacing it with "folks" if I was keeping it light or "people" otherwise.

* I also know women who use it the same way.

They’ve hired a person

You wouldn't say "They hired a him." so I'm not sure why it isn't just "They hired someone".

I dont think They / Them for somoene of unknown gender is any different, do the below make sense?

"I nearly got hit by a Range Rover; I didn't see who was driving, but I called them a few choice swearwords."

"I found a wallet in the street, there was an address in it so I sent it back to the owner. They sent me £20 as a thank you."

I guess like many people, I feel as though the current implementation of gender-neutral pronouns conflicts directly with established grammar, and is therefore causing confusion.

Honestly, it's just you.

As I posted in the other thread:

“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”
I *love* the way you happily use gender neutral pronouns when referring to the person or people doing the hiring. And no, plurality isn’t an issue.

Also, who says “they’ve hired a lady” anyway? Or “they’ve hired a man”, for that matter? It’s weird.

Your assertion would be more valid if people normally used ‘They’ve hired a she” or “they’ve hired a he”. Which, of course, is totally normal and fine and not in any way deeply weird and warped just to make a point.

The ‘gender neutral’ way of doing it would be the one that removes the emphasis of gender in any way, and is coincidentally the one that the vast majority of people would actually *use*:

“Yeah, they’ve hired someone.”

It’s a pretty lousy thought experiment TBH

A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’. Likewise it’s now unacceptable to start a Zoom call with “Good morning ladies & gentlemen”.

"Yes, the position has now been filled" surely? Standards!

Guys is not now a gendered noun.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/07/07/guys-defense-gendered-etymology/

Ooh, another thread just waiting to turn into a burning dumpster fire. Brilliant.

A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’

Yeah, but that didn't actually happen did it?

In my experience, most normal functioning humans drop the gender into an answer without even realising it. Presumably in a subconscious attempt to communicate as much information in a effective shorthand...

No problem with saying they've hired a lady, if the person answering is sufficiently in the know on the situation and person to know that to be the case, and know that the person they hired identifies in that way.

Otherwise, I'd go with 'yes, they've hired someone and THEY are due to start on ....etc.' - which isn't confusing to me at all.

As an aside. While undesirable, if you made an assumption and got it wrong it's not the end of the world. Apologise, move on but don't keep doing it. It's not really any more difficult than learning someone's name and then using that.

Yeah, but that didn’t actually happen did it?

I mean you can threaten all you want, but it's doubtful it would stand any real scrutiny.

Plenty of absolutely dogshit leaders about who jump the gun and chuck about threats without any real sense of reality.

Likewise it’s now unacceptable to start a Zoom call with “Good morning ladies & gentlemen”.

Well, gender issues aside, it's f_ing pompous way of starting a call.

"Good morning everyone". See, it's not difficult.

Guys is not now a gendered noun.

Well, that's an opinion. I know folk with a different one, so steering clear of it when it might be thought inappropriate or even demeaning seems to be a precaution worth taking.

In my experience, most normal functioning humans drop the gender into an answer without even realising it.

Yeah, fair enough, there's some truth in this

Presumably in a subconscious attempt to communicate as much information in a effective shorthand…

I think the subconscious bit is that they think the gender is important or pertinent information, when (generally) it isn't, so doesn't really need referring to at all.

It's a bit like saying (extreme example alert) saying “Yeah, they’ve hired a lady Partick Thistle fan.” It may be the case, but it's got bugger all to do with the matter at hand.

Can we at least all agree that people in call centres who use "yourself" out of context i.e.

"Would that be something that yourself would be interested in"

Need to be just taken around to the back of the building and shot? Seems the only rational outcome to me. When I'm king etc etc...

So it would behoove me to consider their thoughts on this matter

Are you trying to sound like Jacob Rees-Mogg is is it entirely an accident?

Just apply Rule #1, remember that others peoples issues are greater than your concern about grammar and everyone will get on fine.

Yes, my friend being threatened with being fired did happen.

And it sent the willies up me, because I freelance/consult at a number of big corporations myself, all with tyranical HR departments, and "cheers guys" is exactly the type of language I would use subconsciously. It wouldn't even ping on the radar at the smaller companies that I work with – the joys that come bundled with an HR dept. eh?

@TiRed, thanks for that link, that's really helpful, I'll forward that on to her in case it ever becomes an issue again in the future.

Guys is one that catches me out. Is it an Americanism? I spent 5 years in the States and have a number of female friends who use it in a gender neutral way, so often find myself doing the same. It's clear that not everyone takes it that way though.

My thoughts?  you are inventing an issue that does not exist

an we at least all agree that people in call centres who use “yourself” out of context i.e.

“Would that be something that yourself would be interested in”

Need to be just taken around to the back of the building and shot? Seems the only rational outcome to me. When I’m king etc etc…

I feel your pain. I now struggle to watch Police Interceptors as I get annoyed by them saying "at this moment in time you are under arrest". Why at this moment in time, as apposed to 15 mins ago? Grr.

Add to that the use of the word Myself. As in a meeting with myself. Just use Me.

This whole gender thing has surely been blown way out of proportion. If people are so uptight about thier pronouns then we'd be as well getting rid of all of them and only use gender neutral terms.

If we're struggling with this, then how is it been addressed in countries with Latin based languages where they have masculine and feminine words for pretty much everything?

Is it an Americanism?

I'm not an American and neither is my wife 😂

It's possible it has come from American TV. I don't watch telly much but I could be influenced by those who do.

Yes, my friend being threatened with being fired did happen.

Threatened maybe. Actually happening - chances are zero

I suggest you learn some grammar and some employment law.

This whole set of posts from you are just regurgitatred right wing moral panic tales and bear no resemblance to reality

I feel your pain. I now struggle to watch Police Interceptors as I get annoyed by them saying “at this moment in time you are under arrest”. Why at this moment in time, as apposed to 15 mins ago? Grr.

*cough* opposed

how is it been addressed in countries with Latin based languages where they have masculine and feminine words for pretty much everything?

In some cases, the use of an 'x' instead of the 'o' (male) and 'a' (female) word endings is being used as a more inclusive term, so, for example 'latinx' rather than 'latino'/'latina'

My calls start with 'Hi everyone'.

Guys is not now a gendered noun.

The problem with English is that there are no fixed definitions of words, which means that lots of people differ on the definitions. So bear that in mind.

And from a feminist point of view, using the male form (which 'guy' very specifically is) as the default could easily be seen as problematic. That reinforces the idea that women are just a sub-category of people, or a deviation from the default, rather than an equal half of the population.

Guys is one that catches me out. Is it an Americanism? I spent 5 years in the States and have a number of female friends who use it in a gender neutral way, so often find myself doing the same. It’s clear that not everyone takes it that way though.

That's interesting. She's a Texan.

Is it an Americanism?

I blame sloth from the Goonies.

Some interesting points & pointers here - thank you GUYS.

My thoughts? you are inventing an issue that does not exist

Let alone language no one actually uses.

I blame sloth from the Goonies.

Now THAT is a genius comment. I LOL'd at that one!

Well, that’s an opinion

So is pretty much everything, which is why people shouldn't take things so seriously.

It would be a lot easier if they/them was used for everyone all the time then no second guessing, no getting anything wrong etc,. and it is what I try to do.

I must admit I often use “Well done guys!” After a case debrief. No one had an issue with it.

Imagine, for the sake of an example, the Board of Directors are looking to hire a new Sales Director. You ask your colleague if they know if there has been any progress in filling the position, to which they reply

“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”

I've heard that in the olden days it would've been OK to say "yeah, they've hired a black fella". Or worse. Now you can't. well, you can, but it's not acceptable. Except it is if the ethnicity of the person was part of the conversation. I don't know, it's so confusing.

I'd just say they've hired someone, like a normal person would

‘Hi everyone’.

Seems like you are excluding people with multiple personalities when you day say "everyone".

Safer to simply grunt like I do or sigh heavily when the meeting starts.

Threatened maybe. Actually happening – chances are zero

I suggest you learn some grammar and some employment law.

This whole set of posts from you are just regurgitatred right wing moral panic tales and bear no resemblance to reality

And even if it does happen, there's no shortage of ETs that have upheld wrongful dismissal claims because if HR/Managerial overreach.

consider their thoughts on this matter.

You're a troll, and not a very good one at that.
I think that pretty much covers my thoughts.

This is peak boomer chat

This is peak boomer chat

I was thinking about this the other day. When they were growing up some people wanted to be called Mr Smith, some were happy with you calling them by their first name, and quite often the name they used wasn't their actual name, but something else , middle name ot whatever. They seemed to be able to cope with that so what's the problem now with people choosing how you address them?

How does it end, I need to know!

How does it end, I need to know!

Probably gets stabbed and it’ll be the Wokes fault.

A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’

Our daughters (13 yrs old) refer to everyone as guys - be they male, female or transgender. They even call us, their mum and dad 'guys'. All their friends use similar language.

How does it end, I need to know!

It’s left on a cliffhanger after the Daily Mail go with ‘its lycanthropic correctness gone mad!’.

This is peak boomer chat

When Thee and Thou were still used; it became to be seen as increasingly impolite to use them as they were both seen to be too familiar, and by 17thC You became more and more common especially when talking about the upper echelons, and has everyone back then (like now) wanted to be associated with the Joneses, it caught on. The change seems to have provoked the same sorts of feather spitting back than as pronoun choice does now.

I'm sure we'll get over ourselves eventually.

“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”

The gender neutral version might be:

They've filled a lady, Shirley?

Our daughters (13 yrs old) refer to everyone as guys – be they male, female or transgender. They even call us, their mum and dad ‘guys’. All their friends use similar language.

My daughter (26) also uses it. I think I'm just (over?} wary of using it and offending someone. Maybe I should just relax about it.

"Guys"

I have had folk accept it as gender neutral and also folk that have been offended by it.  i would use "folk" now I think

Five Thems do great burgers though.

I try and stop myself using "Hi Guys". I'd be happy using it to mixed-gendered groups of solely Brits/Americans, but beyond those cultural groups I think it could cause confusion.

Note I said 'confusion' not 'full on HR meltdown' as I live in the real world where those things don't actually happen.

I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.

I work for a US tech company and there's been a shift away from using "guys" as an inclusive term within the company. I usually just use all instead, "Hi all,...".

I was thinking about this the other day. When they were growing up some people wanted to be called Mr Smith, some were happy with you calling them by their first name, and quite often the name they used wasn’t their actual name, but something else , middle name ot whatever. They seemed to be able to cope with that so what’s the problem now with people choosing how you address them?

That's interesting. I think I see what you are saying. But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it's very easy to slip-up and to misgender them. Mr Smith couldn't be confused for Mr Jones back in the day right?

I'm happy enough to address people in any fashion they prefer. My biggest fear is letting it slip whilst in-the-flow and offending them.

I have literally worked with a dev, where the first thing he did when he got to his desk in the morning was put his cape on. First time it happened I thought it was a wind-up and I was the butt of some new-guy joke, or it was some quirky in-studio culture thing, like 'Caped Tuesdays' or something - but I soon realised that nobody else was batting an eye-lid, and do you know what, the fact that he wore a cape at work all day didn't turn out to be that big of a deal. He turned out to be a superlative full-stack dev.

I also worked with a guy who had an 'angry jacket', and everybody knew to give him a wide berth when he was wearing it... he would literally hang up a phone call, stand up from his desk, and take his angry jacket off the coat rack before changing into it and sitting down at his desk again. People would walk into the studio with the intention of speaking to him, see the jacket and turn on their heel.

So the pro-noun thing is probably one of the less weird things I could encounter in any given week... but still there is the danger that you can slip up and offend them, especially if you aren't working with them regularly.

Five Thems do great burgers though.

BRAVO!

I've been rebuked for saying 'hi guys' and try to say 'hi everyone' instead. Still do it by mistake!

But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.

Again only if you're going out of your way to be anti social. If someone in that suituation tells you that they prefer a pronoun over another, it generally means it's pretty important to them, and you should probably comply. Getting it wrong is OK, we're only human, but deliberately ignoring their request (aka The Jordan Peterson complaint) is straying into asshole territory.

Look at it this way, you don't bat a eyelid if a man tells you their name is Jordan or Taylor or Casey any more than you would if a woman told you the same thing, just address people as they want to be addressed, I don't understand the issue really.

@dakuan were you rebuked by a male or female? I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases where folk are being offended on behalf of others? Of course, sometimes that's valid if the offended person feels they can't speak up  for themselves. Other times it's just folk being over-cautious, misunderstanding, or simply virtue signalling.

Do you watch a lot of GBNews?

Do you feel the need to genderise everyone you meet? If you're treating men, women, NBs, etc as equal - then don't worry how someone identifies. It's pretty easy unless you are weirdly hung up on it.

The simplest of searches, even on singletrack, would have shown that this is a pronoun thread, not the pronoun thread.

they were female

Five Thems do great burgers though.

No, they don't 🤢

The chips are good though.

That’s interesting. I think I see what you are saying. But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them. Mr Smith couldn’t be confused for Mr Jones back in the day right?

"Have you seen Jane's* photos from the Strongman** competition on Saturday?"

*an easy clue anyway, also not their real name

Can easily be swapped to:

"Have you seen their photos from the Strongman competition on Saturday?"

**they're (singular at least) quite happy to be referred to as strongman.

Do you feel the need to genderise everyone you meet? If you’re treating men, women, NBs, etc as equal – then don’t worry how someone identifies. It’s pretty easy unless you are weirdly hung up on it.

But mostly this +1

Unless there's a need to define them by some characteristic, what's your need to define them?

I have literally worked with a dev, where the first thing he did when he got to his desk in the morning was put his cape on.

Thing that didn't actually happen number 2

I also worked with a guy who had an ‘angry jacket’, and everybody knew to give him a wide berth when he was wearing it… he would literally hang up a phone call, stand up from his desk, and take his angry jacket off the coat rack before changing into it and sitting down at his desk again.

and number 3!

@dakuan - thanks. Backs up my preference of avoiding the word. If my daughter continues to use it across genders I'll assume it's similar to who is and isn't allowed to use the N-word.

Thing that didn’t actually happen number 2

I'm just confused why it's relevant that someone wore a cape?

and number 3!

Haha, I worked with a director who had a flag on a pole on his desk (a little novelty thing with the company logo on it that he got from a conference), if the flag was down you were absolutely not allowed to approach him. Seemed like a very good system to me! The open plan office equivalent to setting your teams status to busy, or passive aggressively removing the "kind" from "kind regards" on your e-mail signature.

I guess like many people, I feel as though the current implementation of gender-neutral pronouns conflicts directly with established grammar, and is therefore causing confusion.

Singular usage of "they" predates singular usage of "you." Unless you address people using thee and thou, any misunderstanding of "established grammar" here is yours I'm afraid.

“Yeah, they’ve hired a lady.”

"Yes, they've hired someone."

Two things here:

1) Why is it important to qualify gender but nothing else? Why aren't you tying yourself in a knot over wanting to say "they've hired a black person" or "they've hired a 40-year old"?

(Is it not an inherently sexist statement anyway? Ie, would one feel equally compelled to say "they've hired a man"?)

2) It is still perfectly acceptable to call women women despite what some quarters might want you to believe.

A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’.

I want to say that this didn't happen so hard that it unhappened things that did. If it is in fact true and not some transphobic hate speech passed on to you third-hand from the Daily Express then it's bloody stupid.

But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.

Does that happen to you a lot?

So the pro-noun thing is probably one of the less weird things I could encounter in any given week… but still there is the danger that you can slip up and offend them, especially if you aren’t working with them regularly.

This at least is a good point. To my mind it's important to at least try. You are of course going to get the occasional millitant dickhead with a point to score (which does no-one any favours and leads to stories about being sacked for saying "guys"), but most people will understand that it's all new to some folk and will appreciate you making an effort. So long as you're not deliberately misgendering or deadnaming someone, you should be OK.

I work with a Steven. That's his name, not Steve or Ste (or Dave, or Susan). He hates his name being contracted. What would you do if you worked with him and said "hey Steve"? Would you go "oops, sorry" and try harder to get their name correct next time? Or would you deliberately call him Steve because that's what you want to call him and he should get over it?

It's not difficult. We do it all the time with people with doctorates or knighthoods, no-one ever whined about addressing Ian McKellan as Sir Ian McKellan.

We all get this wrong. Well I do. The word "sorry" exists though. It's [ working age ] people that refuse to try who are the...

I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.

I was with you until I read ‘could care less’ it is couldn’t care less FFS! If you could care less then you still care and that makes no sense at all.

Back on topic I use guys a lot. For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.

no-one ever whined about addressing Ian McKellan as Sir Ian McKellan.

I’m with you on contracting names but calling anybody sir can get in the sea. I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.

I'm surprised the gals are so accepting of being called guys. I don't think the guys would take being included if the terminology for a mixed group became gals, girls or some such. Patriarchal as usual?
Sorry, but you know what I mean.

Back on topic I use guys a lot. For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.

But GBeebies News told me everyone under 30 now want's to identify as unicorn!

I work for a US tech company and there’s been a shift away from using “guys” as an inclusive term within the company. I usually just use all instead, “Hi all,…”.

Maybe Harry Enfield was onto something in the 80's with "Hello everybody peeps". Try that next time and see who understands.

I use peeps all the time. Had genuinely forgotten it was his doing!

I’m surprised the gals are so accepting of being called guys

I was into horse riding as a kid. Everyone else was posh (and mostly female)... in those circles "guys" for a group of people, whatever their gender, was entirely normal. I think how it is seen may well be a class thing, dunno.

I really CBA with this woke nonsense, but THIS

supernova
Full Member
I could care less how people use they/them etc. but the incorrect use of ‘myself’ makes me shout very loudly at the television- I’m looking at you Apprentices.

IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE! It's "couldn't care less", you absolute unmentionable. Begone foul fiend!

i would use “folk” now I think

Envisions tweed jacket with leather patches on the sleeve....

Is the OP the same chat bot-esque troll that was doing the rounds before? @cougar you're usually good at spotting a shibboleth.

Well, that’s an opinion. I know folk with a different one, so steering clear of it when it might be thought inappropriate or even demeaning seems to be a precaution worth taking.

I find 'asshats' to be suitably inclusive. 'bawbags' if North of the border.

I go to a Pilates class. About half the time I'm the only male there. The female teacher addresses us all as guys.

I'm happy to call people what they would like to be called, provided it's not so obscure I forget, and if somebody wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun I'll try to do that - but the emphasis on pronouns puzzles me as, 99% of the time, pronouns are used to talk about somebody, not to somebody, so the person referred to doesn't hear them. People will generally only be aware of the pronoun referring to them when written about.